AoS 2 - Hosts of Slaanesh Discussion

[Aaron Schmidt]

2 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

So my first start collecting box arrived this morning!

I've been trying to work out what i can build out of it to get the best value for money; so far I've penciled these units:

10 daemonettes (i need them, and you can't do much else with the models anyway)

5 hellstriders with hellscourges (using the seekers, arm-swapped with herald whips and adding some spare shields)

4 heralds on seekers (chariot seekers and riders, fully glammed up with in-box cool stuff)

1 chronomantic cogs (using chariot blades and greenstuff)

 

That still leaves 4 heralds/alluress (aluri? aluresses?) on foot, a bunch of blades, and the chariot chasis. I feel like I should leave some heralds on foot unbuilt for future conversions depending on what the battletome gets, though.

Using the chariot parts to make steed healds is a great idea!

[firebat]

On 10/6/2018 at 9:52 PM, Enoby said:

Yeah, the -1s to hit are great. The Hellstrider banner even stacks with itself, so long as it's within different units. While it may change later, it allows us to get key enemy units on -3 to hit. 

Has this been FAQ'd somewhere because that's not how it's worded.  There is no condition in the rule for the Enrapturing banner that allows for it to stack. If a model is within 6" of A unit with the banner then it gets -1 to hit. If it happens to be within 6" of 2 units then it it still follows the wording that it is within 6" of A unit with the banner and so gets -1 to hit. Same with 3 units.

Or to put it another way.

Is this model within 6" of a unit carrying any enrapturing banner? (the condition)

Yes. It gets -1 to hit (The effect)

A unit is an either/or condition, you're merely checking that there is a unit in range, not counting the units.

For it to stack the wording would have to be:

"Subtract 1 from the hit rolls of enemy models within 6" of EACH unit that contains any Enrapturing Banners."

[Drib]

Quote

5 hours ago, firebat said:

Has this been FAQ'd somewhere because that's not how it's worded.  There is no condition in the rule for the Enrapturing banner that allows for it to stack. If a model is within 6" of A unit with the banner then it gets -1 to hit. If it happens to be within 6" of 2 units then it it still follows the wording that it is within 6" of A unit with the banner and so gets -1 to hit. Same with 3 units.

Or to put it another way.

Is this model within 6" of a unit carrying any enrapturing banner? (the condition)

Yes. It gets -1 to hit (The effect)

A unit is an either/or condition, you're merely checking that there is a unit in range, not counting the units.

For it to stack the wording would have to be:

"Subtract 1 from the hit rolls of enemy models within 6" of EACH unit that contains any Enrapturing Banners."

 

The non-stacking wording is usually "Subtract 1 from the hit rolls of enemy models within 6" of ANY unit that contains a Enrapturing Banners."

That's why it's widely accepted to stack.

[Waiyuren]

I played my first game with non-S2D slaanesh tonight, 500pts:

Daemon Princess

The Masque

A herald on seeker

10 daemonettes

5 hellstriders

 

Vs stormcast:

Lord Castellant

10 liberators

3 hurricane raptors

3 aetherwings 

 

I mis-played the hellstriders thinking they were better (9" bubble affecting units, not 6" affecting models), my daemon princess whiffed as usual (the model is cursed, i swear) and my opponent put the raptors on a rooftop covering her home objective, so i took a bit of a beating closing the gap. But the depravity engine really started kicking in on turn 3 when i ended up with enough DP to resummon almost all my casualties.

We didn't finish as it was getting late, but i had fun and it was still anyones game. ?

[Aaron Schmidt]

What’s the deal with Demon Princes? Its like laws of probibility bend around them or something. Is it because I refuse to spell Demon ‘Daemon’? 

The wording on the Hellstrider’s Rapturous Standard is fuzzy. ‘Any’ standard causing -1 would be clear. ‘Each’ standard causes -1 hit would also be clear. The way it’s currently worded seems like it could lead to annoying English/logic debates at the table. Maybe they’ll clarify it in the Battletome when that drops.

I wonder if the Chaos Lord of Slannesh will change in his rules, because currently he’s AMAZING!

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

What’s the deal with Demon Princes? Its like laws of probibility bend around them or something. Is it because I refuse to spell Demon ‘Daemon’? 

You'd think that Chaos lords would be actively trying to avoid apotheosis as it seems to make them worse ?

I doubt it'd happen, but I hope GW rethink AoS daemon princes. At the moment they seem pretty weak - not something that a lord would have to dominate countless civilisations for. Something like a 2+ to wound, more wounds, more attacks, a better save, or any combination of would make them feel much closer to what they're meant to represent. 

I like the axe, and I really want to use it for the rend, but 4+ to hit as never felt so much like 6+ to hit.

[firebat]

5 hours ago, Drib said:

The non-stacking wording is usually "Subtract 1 from the hit rolls of enemy models within 6" of ANY unit that contains a Enrapturing Banners."

That's why it's widely accepted to stack.

That's not how it works though. There isn't in the main rules a defined list of accepted phrases. There being other rules that cite ANY is irrelevant for the application of this rule. There are always going to be multiple ways to write any rule but A unit and ANY unit are functionally the same in that they generalise for all units with that banner and aren't specific to this exact unit

50 minutes ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

What’s the deal with Demon Princes? Its like laws of probibility bend around them or something. Is it because I refuse to spell Demon ‘Daemon’? 

The wording on the Hellstrider’s Rapturous Standard is fuzzy. ‘Any’ standard causing -1 would be clear. ‘Each’ standard causes -1 hit would also be clear. The way it’s currently worded seems like it could lead to annoying English/logic debates at the table. Maybe they’ll clarify it in the Battletome when that drops.

I wonder if the Chaos Lord of Slannesh will change in his rules, because currently he’s AMAZING!

It's only fuzzy if you're trying to fudge the rules to fit how you want them to. If you actually apply the rule as it is written there is no scope for stacking of multiple banners as you are within the range of a unit whether that is 1 unit or 3 which results in that condition being positive and 'switching on' the -1 to hit for that model.

It's like the Keeper of Secrets and Exalted GD command abilities rules that cropped up earlier in the thread with claims they can stack when they can't because both rules clearly specify after a 1st attack they can attack a 2nd time. Using both abilities means a unit attacks for a 3rd time which breaks one of those rules and is effectively cheating. If one of them only stated that after attacking they could then attack an additional time then they could stack, but they don't, and so they can't. It feels like looking at the rules, seeing something that would be powerful and then trying to wriggle it in somehow by looking everywhere else than the rule itself.

I quite like the Slaanesh Daemon Prince anyway. They should always be used with something else but the mark ability is really nice for messing up peoples day for just putting some wounds on a monster or softening up a unit that has charged something else. The fact it can fly means you can hide it behind something else like in a unit and it can pile in over models that are in the way to get stuck in and it means you're always attacking first or twice in a row or forcing your opponents combat choices in some way if they're taking it into account. I've run 2 in a tag team a bit which was fun (and annoying for my opponent).

[Aaron Schmidt]

I agree with your interpretation of the banner's rule. I just think that inside of the wide design space of AoS, people are given the opportunity to misinterpret that rule. The inconsistency aggravates this.  Whatever, GW's rule writing style is well trodden ground. 

The Slannesh DP's special rules are pretty slick. Its disruptive and provides something that nothing else in the force does. I'm looking forward to trying one out. 

[Waiyuren]

5 hours ago, firebat said:

That's not how it works though. There isn't in the main rules a defined list of accepted phrases... It's only fuzzy if you're trying to fudge the rules to fit how you want them to. 

Totally agree. "A" is synonymous with "Any" as far as I'm concerned, and that level of rules wrangling always kills fun at the table. ?

1 hour ago, Aaron Schmidt said:

The inconsistency aggravates this.  Whatever, GW's rule writing style is well trodden ground. 

All GW need to do to stop this is make a hard blanket-ruling; "if a unit is capable of being affected by two or more abilities that are functionally similar/identical (such as granting +1 to hit or an extra pile in and attack), those abilities do not stack unless at least one of those abilities specifically states it can."

Boom. Problem solved... Maybe. ??

[Elazar The Glorified]

Q: When the word ‘any’ is used in the criteria for an ability, how many times is that ability applied when the criteria for the ability are fulfilled? For example, if an ability said ‘Add 1 to hit rolls for models that are within 6" of any models with this ability’, would I add 1 to the hit rolls of a model that was within 6" of three models with the ability, or would I add 3 to the hit rolls?

A: The word ‘any’ is treated as being synonymous with ‘one or more’. In your example, this means that 1 would be added to the hit rolls, not 3.

 

If 'A' was synonymous with 'Any' for GW they surely would have included it in that FAQ question though? 

Edited October 12, 2018 by Elazar The Glorified

[Tasman]

Wrong spot for this.

Edited October 12, 2018 by Tasman

[Enoby]

Looks like we can definitely, without question, take the Depraved Drove battalion in Slaanesh as per the FAQ. 

[PensivePanther]

36 minutes ago, Enoby said:

Looks like we can definitely, without question, take the Depraved Drove battalion in Slaanesh as per the FAQ. 

I just saw! Happy day! Time to make me some centigors!

[Waiyuren]

8 hours ago, Tasman said:

Wrong spot for this.

Contextually as a debate about slaanesh rules? I'd call it a border case... but I agree it doesn't help the thread, and a mod will no doubt come step on it if we get too squabbly.

 

11 hours ago, Elazar The Glorified said:

If 'A' was synonymous with 'Any' for GW they surely would have included it in that FAQ question though? 

It's one of the literal dictionary definitions of "A", so I personally will err on the side of caution unless GW say otherwise; I play a lot of casual pick-up games so if i want to keep having opponents, it's just good business-sense. ?

 

[Waiyuren]

So I've been fiddling with my list for fun; I personally think there are too few bodies and I'll get smashed off the table... Thoughts?

Daemon Princess of Slaanesh
The Masque
Keeper of Secrets
2x10 Daemonettes
5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh
3 Fiends
Chronomantic Cogs

1000pts

Edited October 12, 2018 by Waiyuren
Grammar and points-removal

[Phynxes]

On 10/9/2018 at 8:52 AM, Lightbox said:

I did some modifications to the Yncarne from 40k myself. Added a large demonette claw (from a seeker I think) some demonic stuff protruding from her etc which I think works well. Definitely has a good slaaneshy vibe.

 

Here's the only photo I can find of her. I should try and get a better one.

My gosh, that's amazing! Thank you ?

[Johann]

38 minutes ago, Waiyuren said:

So I've been fiddling with my list for fun; I personally think there are too few bodies and I'll get smashed off the table... Thoughts?

Daemon Princess of Slaanesh
The Masque
Keeper of Secrets
2x10 Daemonettes
5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh
3 Fiends
Chronomantic Cogs

1000pts

I often play around 1000-1250 and usually have two good Units - the Keeper and 30 daemonettes. Many people underestimate the sheer mass of attacks from the daemonettes. The Hellstriders are needed, but not for killing things.

so I would increase the daemonettes, kick out the Fiends and take one Herald for the remaining points (can stay behind and summon sth, if the others are dead).

Personally I would switch the Daemon Prince for one Herold on exalted Seeker Chariot, because people are always afraid of the MWs and it is such a cool model!

[PensivePanther]

1 hour ago, Waiyuren said:

So I've been fiddling with my list for fun; I personally think there are too few bodies and I'll get smashed off the table... Thoughts?

Daemon Princess of Slaanesh
The Masque
Keeper of Secrets
2x10 Daemonettes
5 Hellstriders of Slaanesh
3 Fiends
Chronomantic Cogs

1000pts

If it were me, I'd combine the 2x10 daemonettes in one unit of 20. Other than that its pretty close to lists I typically run. I haven't tried the cogs or fiends before and would like to hear how they works for you.

Here's how I run things: I'd run the hellstriders close to the fiends or daemon prince and use them to lock down trouble units with stacking -1 to hits. Then try to setup heavy blows with the keeper or daemonettes around your hellstrider tarpit. The Masque I like to just suicide out there and try to make her as annoying as possible. She'll usually get targeted and she often stands her ground against units much more her point value. 

Happy Hunting!   

[Throxor]

12 hours ago, Johann said:

so I would increase the daemonettes, kick out the Fiends and take one Herald for the remaining points (can stay behind and summon sth, if the others are dead).

I like my Fiends. 

I never use them. They're terrible and I only have two, so now that they come in units of three they definitely never see play. #MakeFiendsGreatAgain

[Enoby]

29 minutes ago, Throxor said:

I never use them. They're terrible and I only have two, so now that they come in units of three they definitely never see play. #MakeFiendsGreatAgain

Hopefully they get a rules update when the new models come out. Does anyone remember if the Beasts of Nurgle got a rules update? I know they're not considered good, but were they even worse before?

[Tasman]

15 hours ago, Waiyuren said:

Contextually as a debate about slaanesh rules? I'd call it a border case... but I agree it doesn't help the thread, and a mod will no doubt come step on

No, I meant that I had posted something in the wrong spot, then deleted the text.?

[PensivePanther]

5 hours ago, Enoby said:

Hopefully they get a rules update when the new models come out. Does anyone remember if the Beasts of Nurgle got a rules update? I know they're not considered good, but were they even worse before?

Hey Enoby. I was able to compare the beast of nurgle profiles between the old GA: Chaos battletome and the Maggotkin of Nurgle battletome. Their profiles did change. Their profiles did get better between the two battletomes (+1 wounds, better to hit on a weapon, some buffs to abilities, etc), so there is reason to hope for fiends getting a bit of a rules face-lift!

[Waiyuren]

7 hours ago, Tasman said:

No, I meant that I had posted something in the wrong spot, then deleted the text.?

My bad! ?

[12punch]

So given that we can now take the Depraved Drone. Do we still have to ally in all of them BoC's? Cause if so that's gonna be a little rough on points cost. Or is Azyr just messed up again?

[Domowoj]

6 minutes ago, 12punch said:

So given that we can now take the Depraved Drone. Do we still have to ally in all of them BoC's? Cause if so that's gonna be a little rough on points cost. Or is Azyr just messed up again?

No, you don't have to ally the battalion units, because the errata adds the "Slaanesh" allegiance to the battalion itself.