AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

yeah with just 1 fungoid, starting with 2 CP,  your extra attack average is 6 attack in round 1 (even more with prophet)

The new fungoid was really a nice little addition for Ironjawz.

[Blitzel]

Hey all, I am pretty curious what you all think of this magical ironjawz list. It basically is a weird fist with a shaman that casts with +4. I thought to first cast cogs (always works with +3) depending on the situation  I will choose extra mo cement, or if I will take the Balewind vortex for a ride. Anyway, when the shaman is up there he can try to cast foot of gork and puke all over the place. It could potential be devastating.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Thermalrider Cloak 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)
- Artefact: Ignax Scales
Battleline
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
- 2x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Behemoths
Rogue Idol (400)

Battalions
Weirdfist (180)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 140

[broche]

@Blitzel it's not a bad list. But even in weirdfist you should still use Aetherquartz brooch (you have a 5+ against mortal instead of 4+)

I would drop the Cog, you want to be casting Bolt and Foot/puke with shaman. I think I would split the Brutes and in 2 x 5 and remove the Gruntas from the fist, something like that.

[Superninja]

      I think broche means you can take the aetherquartz and the mirrored cuirass. The Cuirass gives the 5+ against mortals and reflects on 6's to something within melee.  Obviously, the aetherquartz gives you back command points when you use them on a 5+ roll.

      Thermalrider on the footboss is usually needed with a ironfist battalion or something like that. In a weirdfist it probably will not be necessary.  Still useful though.

     Cogs are great, but if your focus is weirdfist then the cogs aren't really going to get cast when you have a balewind, foot, puke, and realm spells to cast as well.  At least with 1 caster.  Or vice versa, meaning if you cast cogs then prob won't be casting foot or puke, because your troops all just moved and charged out of your range that gave you bonuses to cast.  So it is a lot of points on spells for one caster.

     Beyond spells and 3 gore gruntas, you don't have much that can stall, pin, or engage the enemy at range.  This can be a problem if you fail the casting rolls.  You have plenty of bonuses though.

     I think in this particular list I would take ironclad on the Weirdnob shaman.  So many points are spent into make spells work, if he dies, you've lost 400 points.  (shaman, 2 endless spells, and battalion bonus)  Granted you would have the rest of your army and an Idol left, but with only 1 source of waagh, no aetherquartz, no fungoids, and no cabbage, you are behind the curve imo. If you get your spells off early, it may work fine.

     Again in this list, using broche's advice, Mirrored cuirass on the weirdnob(and ironclad) and aetherquartz would go on the warchanter.  This would take a little of the heat off the Megaboss (typically waagh sources are killed first), making target priority more difficult.

 

Edited February 2, 2019 by Superninja

[Andrew G]

Here's my new build, I'm enjoying playing it more than the Gorefist and I think it's stronger as well in most match-ups. It still leans heavily on a CP engine for multiple high Waaagh! turns, but it's swapping in Fungoids in lieu of some combination of cutting points,battalions, Aetherquartz, and Prophet.

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 170
 

There's an overall loss in mobility and the CP generated are not as front-loaded compared to the Gorefist, but we're adding ~30 wounds of batttline,a strong magic phase, and a tankier Mawkrusher to survive long enough to utilize the CP generation.  There's probably a good version of this list that utilizes footbosses, but I find the 15" range of Waaagh! on a pie plate too valuable (that, and you get to affect 14 wounds instead of 7 wounds w/ Ironclad, Ignax Scales, Realm Spell buffs, etc.).

[Skumbaagh]

9 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Here's my new build, I'm enjoying playing it more than the Gorefist and I think it's stronger as well in most match-ups. It still leans heavily on a CP engine for multiple high Waaagh! turns, but it's swapping in Fungoids in lieu of some combination of cutting points,battalions, Aetherquartz, and Prophet.

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Choppa and Rip-tooth fist
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales 
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 170
 

There's an overall loss in mobility and the CP generated are not as front-loaded compared to the Gorefist, but we're adding ~30 wounds of batttline,a strong magic phase, and a tankier Mawkrusher to survive long enough to utilize the CP generation.  There's probably a good version of this list that utilizes footbosses, but I find the 15" range of Waaagh! on a pie plate too valuable (that, and you get to affect 14 wounds instead of 7 wounds w/ Ironclad, Ignax Scales, Realm Spell buffs, etc.).

I have tried quite a similar list but with 3 units of brutes and 4 units of pigs, a maw krusha, footboss (for redundancy and brute support) and 3 fungoids.  I dont know if your list have a typo with the 4 fungoids instead of 3 as you must bring 16 units to get 4 allies. Also I think 3 fungoids is more than enough (I was swiming in CP.) 2 could do the trick as well and its doable to bring a batalion or bigger units.

[Andrew G]

4 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

I have tried quite a similar list but with 3 units of brutes and 4 units of pigs, a maw krusha, footboss (for redundancy and brute support) and 3 fungoids.  I dont know if your list have a typo with the 4 fungoids instead of 3 as you must bring 16 units to get 4 allies. Also I think 3 fungoids is more than enough (I was swiming in CP.) 2 could do the trick as well and its doable to bring a batalion or bigger units.

Have to admit this is my first time considering allies for IJ, wasn't aware of the 1/4 rule. I thought it was just 20% of total points... it would be hard to even fit 3 into any IJ list. Back to the drawing board. 

[Skumbaagh]

31 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

Have to admit this is my first time considering allies for IJ, wasn't aware of the 1/4 rule. I thought it was just 20% of total points... it would be hard to even fit 3 into any IJ list. Back to the drawing board. 

With the list you have you only need to swap a fungoid for a warchanter and you are done. That said i dont like missing out on the brutes. Claw and smasha really goes up to 11 with stacking waagh whilst ardboys got their 4+ to hit ruining their day even with waagh and great weapons. Equiping the brutes all with twohhanders also let them reach what need to be killed when it gets crowded. With so many attacks going on the loss of one attack for added reach is really worth it. 

What is needed is something to debuff -1 to hit which is quite common these days. Bringing at least one warchanter is probably mandatory..

[Rock Lobster]

1 hour ago, Andrew G said:

Have to admit this is my first time considering allies for IJ, wasn't aware of the 1/4 rule. I thought it was just 20% of total points... it would be hard to even fit 3 into any IJ list. Back to the drawing board. 

I dont think you need to go back to the drawing board, I think you nailed it here almost. Drop 1 fungoid for a command point and bump 2 units of ardboyz up to brutes, or drop 1 fungoing, downgrade 1 unit of ardboyz to gore gruntas and get 2 command points and you are all legal and have both the front loaded waaagh and the endless waaagh in the list.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Skumbaagh said:

With the list you have you only need to swap a fungoid for a warchanter and you are done. That said i dont like missing out on the brutes. Claw and smasha really goes up to 11 with stacking waagh whilst ardboys got their 4+ to hit ruining their day even with waagh and great weapons. Equiping the brutes all with twohhanders also let them reach what need to be killed when it gets crowded. With so many attacks going on the loss of one attack for added reach is really worth it. 

What is needed is something to debuff -1 to hit which is quite common these days. Bringing at least one warchanter is probably mandatory..

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Scrap-tooth
- Trait: Ironclad 
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Endless Spells
Scuttletide (30)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 270 / 400
Wounds: 137
 

Is what I'd look at if I were going for this type of list.

[Andrew G]

11 hours ago, Skumbaagh said:

With the list you have you only need to swap a fungoid for a warchanter and you are done. That said i dont like missing out on the brutes. Claw and smasha really goes up to 11 with stacking waagh whilst ardboys got their 4+ to hit ruining their day even with waagh and great weapons. Equiping the brutes all with twohhanders also let them reach what need to be killed when it gets crowded. With so many attacks going on the loss of one attack for added reach is really worth it. 

What is needed is something to debuff -1 to hit which is quite common these days. Bringing at least one warchanter is probably mandatory..

Yea, I'll just swap in a warchanter and try it out . Adds a greater incentive to bring a bigger battleline unit (probably 20 'ardboyz)  to be a sponge for the +1 to hit from the warchanter. 

As far as Brutes, don't get me wrong, I full realize the destructive potential of Brute Bosses and a ton of Waaaghs! I'd consider adding them if I ever had a problem with damage and killing things, but for the most part the 'ardboyz/GGs chew through anything they touch with these CP engine lists. In a nutshell,  I put much higher weight in wounds per point, board coverage, and mobility than I do attack profiles when selecting battline for IJ. 

Mostly because when I do lose with IJ it's from one of two things. 

1) I didn't bubble wrap my MawKrusha perfectly, and they deepstrike/fly in some high mobility hammer to shutdown my one Waaagh! source.

2) I don't have enough wounds/units in my list to guarantee successful Waaaghs and objective control, and eventually get grinded down because IJ units are garbage w/o consistent Waaagh support.

Brutes don't help as much as 'ardboyz in either of those outlined situations, so, I've been passing on them lately. If I start running into anvils/heroes I can't break consistently, I'll start swapping in some Brutes units though without hesitation.  

Anyway, thanks the feedback all. Definitely a few optimization choices to consider. 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Andrew G

[broche]

38 minutes ago, Andrew G said:

As far as Brutes, don't get me wrong, I full realize the destructive potential of Brute Bosses and a ton of Waaaghs! I'd consider adding them if I ever had a problem with damage and killing things, but for the most part the 'ardboyz/GGs chew through anything they touch with these CP engine lists

 Brutes look awesome  and painting ardboys is boring... but yeah ardboys are strictly better in most situation. The only way for Brutes to worth is get the reroll, so maybe playing 1-2 units for special mission might worth it but meh.

For my part i've settle on an MSU Ironsunz list for LVO. A bit low on the wound count, so i'm counting a bit on the -1 to hit to protect my troops early  

[Malakree]

7 hours ago, Andrew G said:

1) I didn't bubble wrap my MawKrusha perfectly, and they deepstrike/fly in some high mobility hammer to shutdown my one Waaagh! source.

For a true waaagh! Stacking brutes are better because of the boss, special weapon and 3+ to hit. You can also more tightly pack the msu.

I'd you're really worried about it drop the scuttletide and one unit of brutes to ggs. Then upgrade your warchanter to a Footboss, with may brutes that would also give you refill 1s. Use the ggs to zone out deepstriking and seize objectives while the rest of your army smashes the opponent before mopping them up.

[broche]

This is not exactly true. Brutes loose their relative lift with ardboys the more you waaagh. Let assume full minimum squad of Brutes (assuming klaw get a hit for simplification) and 10 arboys with 2hand weapon, and look at damage distribution:

	base damage/ extra attack	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8
Brutes	10.66666667	14.66666667	18.66666667	22.66666667	26.66666667	30.6666667	34.6666667	38.6666667	42.6666667
Ardboys	6.888888889	10.33333329	13.77777769	17.22222209	20.66666649	24.1111109	27.5555553	30.9999997	34.4444441
%	55%	42%	35%	32%	29%	27%	26%	25%	24%

 

As you can see, the less attack bonus, the biggest the diff is.  They do 55% more damage without buff, but down at less than 25 at +8 atk.

Let do another scenario tough: Imagine both unit suffered 10 damages (leaving you with 5 ardboys, or 2 brutes, the boss and hacka), you notice than brutes retain their relative efficiency:

Brutes 5.333333333 8 10.66666667 13.33333333 16 18.6666667 21.3333333 24 26.6666667                     Ardboys 3.555555556 5.333333356 7.111111156 8.888888956 10.66666676 12.4444446 14.2222224 16.0000002 17.777778 diff 50% 50% 50% 50% 50% 50% 50% 50% 50%  If you hit the reroll to hit, then Brutes can reach double the damages output of Ardboys without any buff!  But most of the time, when stacking waaagh we are looking at high end damage that the difference become less and less relevant (as you risk losing  damage point anyway) My conclusions with Brutes are: 1. Small squad are better, cause Brute Boss account for a large portion of damage (especially with higher rend) 2. They try to perform better in a Ironfist to offset their lower relative move  3. They work great as support unit as counter attack against high wound. Keep them close to other units so they can pile in to maximize their output. 4. Make sure to send them against big/resistant  unit so that every damage count. Ideally with the reroll.

[Andrew G]

On 2/4/2019 at 6:21 PM, Andrew G said:

As far as Brutes, don't get me wrong, I full realize the destructive potential of Brute Bosses and a ton of Waaaghs! I'd consider adding them if I ever had a problem with damage and killing things, but for the most part the 'ardboyz/GGs chew through anything they touch with these CP engine lists. In a nutshell,  I put much higher weight in wounds per point, board coverage, and mobility than I do attack profiles when selecting battline for IJ. 

I get Brutes do more damage, but that's the only thing they do better.

When Waaagh! is there to turn any battline unit into a hammer, and they're making it easier and easier to generate CP, I don't see the point in taking a dedicated hammer that's lower wound-per-point, less mobile, and has worse board coverage (besides the @broche reason. They do look awesome ).  

[Backbreaker]

Even if they are expansive, I also like brutes to hold an objective. They are a threat and you won't see a unit of stabbas being teleport to steal your objective because of that. On the contrary, if you hold your objective with ardboyz, a horde type unit will try to steal it.

If playing with brutes, you have to use the "fear" they inspire. Especially outside of an iron fist.

[Rock Lobster]

I have found the Brute verses ardboyz tradeoff to be a little false in my past games and it is better to have a mix. Ardboyz are on paper better units when you look at damage they can take and multiple waaagh against many enemies, but for certain pretty frequent occurances you are better with the Brutes.

Brutes are better against anything with 4 wounds or more, great against eels (which are common in any deepkin build), fiends of slaanesh (when the book comes out you will see more) and enemy monsters or characters they can take a reliable bite out of or assassinate. I frequently use my 5 man Brute units to pick off key characters, especially in scenarios where those character score.

The other situation which you see a lot of is with any negative modifiers to hit. The basic brutes having +1 to hit over the ardboyz and the brute smasha on the boss auto hitting (as long as you have enough attacks to land the claw (+2 minimum) helps rack up the damage. Against a unit of grots and netters with 4 additional attacks, 10 ardboyz with great weapons hit only 20 times and cause an average of 11 casualties. The 5 Brutes will average 18 wounds in the same situation.

Finally the Brutes clear armour better thanks purely to the Brute smasher. This really just helps with the character killing as the rest of the unit is no better off. +4 attacks on the unit though (average for 3 command points spent and prophet of the waaagh) will net you 4 wounds at rend -2 and D3 damage which can even cause sequitors some trouble.

A solid core of a list for 1000 of your points with the rest to taste would be 2 x 20 ardboyz and 2 x 5 Brutes which gives you the flexibility to cover both these types of options. If you are in an eel heavy environment you might double up the brutes and halve the ardboyz for more choppy against high would models, or even a mix of the 2 for just over 1k points with 20 ardboyz, 10 ardboyz, 10 brutes, 5 brutes.

[Backbreaker]

Even if I like brutes , I'm not sure they are an answer to eels. Eels can either ignore our rend-1 or wipe out a unit on the charge with -2 and D2... And honestly, eels will charge first ^^

[Rock Lobster]

52 minutes ago, Backbreaker said:

Even if I like brutes , I'm not sure they are an answer to eels. Eels can either ignore our rend-1 or wipe out a unit on the charge with -2 and D2... And honestly, eels will charge first ^^

They are the best answer we have to eels. We have a limited toolset which is the weakness of the army. Where we think that Brutes may not be able to overcome eels, ardboys are in an even worse position. 10 ardboys with the great weapons and +2 attacks vs the killy eels is 9 wounds or 2 dead eels. The same on 5 brutes is 16 wounds or 4 dead eels. It is a really poor matchup for ironjawz.

The eels usually get the charge, and if they do you lose whether you took ardboyz or Brutes, however if you get a double turn or he underestimates your movement plus ironfist plus cogs (as has happened for me) it is possible to get the charge. The eels are much better on the charge so if you get a chance to double move a maw krusha and pin units in place at the very end of a line it is worthwhile and you can catchup with your units hopefully before he dies.

If you are going 2nd then the eels have uncomfortable decisions to make since although they have enormous movement, a 6 on the ironfist roll and a cogs spell and suddenly you are projecting an average move and charge distance with your brutes of 22" if you have those tools. Even if you dont have those tools a lucky double move can pin a unit in place. This forces the deepkin player to choose to either take a chance and move their units closer to the ironjawz and risk the low chance of shenanigans with lucky allegiance and battalion rolls, or backup and take the chance of a charge failing, even with their reroll which will put them in a bad spot.

Either way the chances of a good result are low unfortunately, it requires either bad luck on their part or good luck on your part to really be in the fight and even then you can still easily lose. Brutes are the weapon of opportunity here, if the good fortune does come, they are the unit that can really hurt the eels and capitalize on it.

[tolstedt]

2 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

They are the best answer we have to eels

Brutish cunning is the best answer waaagh.

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

After seeing the LVO preview, does anyone think we'll receive any new models when our battletome gets updated? Starting to feel we may only get a new hero a la the Carrion Empire battle box. Personally I would be disappointed since we could use some variety, give us something else to play around with to mix up our lists, but I guess the new battletome will take care of that

[PlasticCraic]

1 minute ago, Gorks Pokin' Finger said:

After seeing the LVO preview, does anyone think we'll receive any new models when our battletome gets updated? Starting to feel we may only get a new hero a la the Carrion Empire battle box. Personally I would be disappointed since we could use some variety, give us something else to play around with to mix up our lists, but I guess the new battletome will take care of that

Yeah I'm assuming Endless Spells and Terrain + new book.

I'd take it tbh.  We need varied units more than more Heroes, but we need updated rules more than either I think.

[Gorks Pokin' Finger]

4 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yeah I'm assuming Endless Spells and Terrain + new book.

I'd take it tbh.  We need varied units more than more Heroes, but we need updated rules more than either I think.

I'm coming around to that. You look what could be done with Weirdnob Spells, Warchanter prayers, to enhance our battlefield dynamic, and maybe a new system that gives our Megabosses bonuses for doing certain feats. I see us similar to Blades of Khorne, but more direct, upfront, and cunning. Plus, our battalions are probably going to be fixed and more viable (ex: Brutefist and Ardfist). Not to mention, points adjustments! (Megaboss on Maw Krusha goes down to 400 and Brutes 160!!!)

[Malakithe]

Updated rules plz. Battalions that are total ******. The Weirdnob needs a complete warscroll rework as well

[Backbreaker]

On 2/6/2019 at 11:49 PM, tolstedt said:

Brutish cunning is the best answer waaagh.

Could you explain what you mean ? I open my GH2018 and I don't see why this command trait would help against eels... I love the idea of counter charging but unlike 40k, charging doesn't give you the ability to first strike. And even if it was the case, on turn 3, deepkin always strike first ^^