AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[velocitydog]

Wow...(insert maniacal laughter).  This gives me a lot to think about and try the next time I play.

[broche]

yeah i know i was just counting impact of prophet

basicaly prophet + brooch end up netting you an exra .75 attack per CP. 

[Hot Peanut]

I am always thinking about building an army with the big G and a Megaboss on Maw-Krusha, so I thought a little bit about it and came up with the following, what do you think about it? The Idea behind is to use the GG as fast objective grabber combined with both cabbages and in the middle a 15 modle brute force as a hammer unit. With a fungoid and a Warchanter as support heroes. I can use MD on the Brutes to get them to the enemy combined with the CA from the big G. I love the idea of two cabbages on the rampage...

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Gordrakk The Fist of Gork (580)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh!  
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
15 x Orruk Brutes (540)
- 3x Gore Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 80 / 400
Wounds: 114
 

What do you think about it, is it a competitive list?

[Luzgurbel]

I've played today against a Tzeentch army.

 

My army:

 

Realm of Aqshy.

-Maw krusha with Ignax Scales, Ironclad and armed with a Choppa.

-Warchanter with The Golden Toof.

-Weirdnob with Ruby Ring.

 

-5 Brutes.

-10 Brutes.

-2x10 Ardboys.

-3 Gore grunta.

-Chronomantic Cogs.

Bloodtoof battalion.

 

My enemy army:

 

Realm of Ghur.

-Lord of Change with Incorporeal form and Gryph feather charm.

-Ogroid Taumathurge.

-Vilitch.

-Tzaangor Shaman.

 

-2x6 Tzaangor Enlightened on disc.

-3x10 Tzaangors.

-Aethervoid Pendulum, Umbral Spellportal, Soulsnare Shackles.

 

We played Escalation battleplan from Corebook, in the Realm of Ghyran. I deployed all the army and decided to go second. My enemy did not move at all, just use magic powers to gain some summoing points. I advanced with my whole army to get the 3 points and start controlling them and summoned the Cog.

I never get the initiative in 4 turns, so I always played after my rival.

In the second battleround, my enemy moves forward, but not too much, and I decided to go for an all in. I used 3 times the Waaagh giving +4 attacks (a 6 was granted) to both units of Brutes, the Gruntas, the characters and 1 unit of Ardboys. The 10 Brutes charged against 1 unit of Tzaangors (this Brutes also got the boost from Warchanter), the other unit charged against another unit and the Gruntas charged against the last one. The Ardboys unit failed the charge (they had +6 to charge, but...). The Maw Krusha was really behind to even attempt a charge.

The 10 Brutes stamped out the Tzaangors, as well as the other Brutes (though those Tzaangors failed the Battleshock). However, the disaster came. 10 Tzaangors killed 1 grunta, and the 2 remaining just killed 1 Tzaangor (with THIRTY attacks). The Ogroid was in distance to pile in, so he did and killed 2 Brutes (this thing is really brutal).

Then, in the 3rd turn (we were 3-0), the Lord of Change positionated to charge the Krusha, and caused him 4 wounds with spells and 1 to the Warchanter (which, at the end of the battle, was crucial). The units of Enlightened attempted to charge the unit of 10 Brutes and one unit of Ardboys (the other one was sat in an objective really really far from the action). The Enlightened showed they are really good. The 1st unit completely destroyed the unit of Ardboys (only the Boss lived), so I decide to go with the unit of 10 Brutes (I reroll to hit, 21 attacks of damage 1, 6 of damage d3 and 3 of damage 2), even they had -1 to hit due to magic. They caused 14 wounds and killed 3 Enlightened, but the other 3 nasty birds killed FOUR Brutes, and 3 more on the Battleshock test... (so, I did 14 wounds with 30 attacks, he did 12 with 16 attacks...). 

The Lord of Change had -2 to hit, so the Krusha really did nothing except 1 wound from the Tail, and this caused 3 more wounds on him. The Gruntas and the olther unit of Brutes were erradicated...

So, in the mere last battleround (4th, we were 5-1 at this moment), the Krusha caused 4 more wounds on the LoC and this killed the Krusha. The 10 Brutes were finally eliminated and the Pendulum inflicted 5 wounds to the Warchanter who was controlling an objective. Then, Vilitch teleported himself (Ghyran's Realm spell) to take that objective. The last unit of Enlightened charged into the far away unit of Ardboys, killing them with no survivors (the Ardboys attacked first, killing just 1, so 5 Enlightened killed 10 Ardboys in cover...).

 

So, the final result, with the 5th Battleround remaining to be played, was 7-5 for my rival.

 

I can say I had some bad luck, but I felt myself completely overwhelmed. He used 6 spells per phase, his LoC was tougher and hit harder than my Krusha. His Enlightened, even without any boost from auras or spells, could kill almost what they attack. And me, with units with +4 attacks, couldn't do anything.

 

 

[Goose madness]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

Bloodtoofs with 100 points for 2 extra CP's so 4 in total. Engaged turn 2, with 6 CP's. Got up to 12 Waaagh! running and only rolled a single 6  

The Broach is frankly disgusting.

You roll for each Ironjawz hero, you then trigger it on an applicable unit as @Superninja and @Oreaper84 said. This can stack multiple times on a single unit with careful movement.

There is also a fricking huge as loop hole that GW have left regarding running and the MD move. Specifically in the running section.

Why is this broken? Because it adds the run roll to your move CHARACTERISTIC for the rest of the phase. This has some disgusting ramifications with Bloodtoofs, Mighty Destroyers and At The Double. 

1. Trigger Mighty Destroyers on a unit of Ardboys.
2. Run them.
3. Make the Run Roll a 6.
4. With Bloodtoofs this is now a 7.
5. Your Ardboys now have a move characteristic of 11
6. Move 11"
7. Trigger a second Mighty Destroyers on the same unit
8. Run them again
9. Make the roll a 6 for 7 total
10. Ardboys now have a move characteristic of 18"
11. Do whatever you want because you just got 29" of movement on a unit of Ardboys during your hero phase.

*scratches head*

I am reading the rules of MD and it states that you cant run. Im missing something? ?

[broche]

@Luzgurbel Nice report! Just wondering, on the turn you go all in, wasn't in the game, just trying to follow your logic, espacially in round 2:

1. You give the buff to the 10 brutes, but 10 brutes agains 10 tzaangor don't need buff. Were you hoping to charge something else? the +1 would have been better on either gruntas or the 5 brutes (5 brutes with +4 attack will kill 10 tzangoor most of times, but with an extra +1 to hit it's pretty much garanteed)

2. Did you tried the 8'' charges with Gruntas?

3. Did you had pressure to go all in? You seemed in pretty good scoring position and pretty much out of danger. Going All in to kill 3 units of 10 tzangor seem a bit meh.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Goose madness said:

*scratches head*

I am reading the rules of MD and it states that you cant run. Im missing something? ?

Are you reading the ghb2018 ironjawz one?

[Goose madness]

10 hours ago, Malakree said:

Are you reading the ghb2018 ironjawz one?

Sorry my bad, I read the old rules, ghb2018 says otherwise, nevermind my post.

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Goose madness said:

Sorry my bad, I read the old rules, ghb2018 says otherwise, nevermind my post.

Yep, they changed the old rules because we could do some stupid stuff with it then made the new ones dumb in other ways...

[Luzgurbel]

11 hours ago, broche said:

@Luzgurbel Nice report! Just wondering, on the turn you go all in, wasn't in the game, just trying to follow your logic, espacially in round 2:

1. You give the buff to the 10 brutes, but 10 brutes agains 10 tzaangor don't need buff. Were you hoping to charge something else? the +1 would have been better on either gruntas or the 5 brutes (5 brutes with +4 attack will kill 10 tzangoor most of times, but with an extra +1 to hit it's pretty much garanteed)

2. Did you tried the 8'' charges with Gruntas?

3. Did you had pressure to go all in? You seemed in pretty good scoring position and pretty much out of danger. Going All in to kill 3 units of 10 tzangor seem a bit meh.

 

 

1. No, I didn't plan to charge anything else, though I should have done it, really. Nevertheless, They barely killed the Tzaangors. I needed all the attacks from the unit to kill them

 

2. The charge was 12" in fact. So yes, I have d3 damage with gruntas, but they managed to neither hit nor wound at all.

 

3. Meh, that's the word. My pressure was the control of the objectives, but my opponent had magic enough to pressuring me. The pendulum causing d6 mortal wounds through the portals (so he can just stay safe from long range charges, and behind his meat shields of Tzaangors), and that's just an example.

 

The Battleplan, Escalation, was also a bit bad luck for me, I think. My Krusha started the game nearly my corner while the rest of the army was at 9" of the center line, so he couldn't get involved in the game (just a Waaagh). Another mistake I made was that I used a unit of Ardboys to go for a far objective, and I should have used the Gruntas, so they could go there, took control of it and then go faster to the melee. 

 

However, I am a bit disappointed with the Ironjawz. I needed my full attacks boosted with more attacks and bonuses to hit to kill 10 Tzaangors. His general with -2 to hit. His Enlightened killing whatever they want without any boost... If my enemy has better move, better magic (loads of better magic), better shooting and better combat, what can the Ironjawz do? And I'm not refering to the Tzeentch, but the whole other armies.

[Malakree]

37 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

what can the Ironjawz do? And I'm not refering to the Tzeentch, but the whole other armies.

As I said on the previous page, Ironjawz are gimped in the current GHB. All our stuff is overcosted for what it does and our warscrolls are desperately out of date. We are a T2 army, we can match off against the T1 armies but the T0 ones will crush us reliably with no issues.

[broche]

@Luzgurbel i think you where really unlucky.  2 pig with +4 attack killing  only 1 tzangor will almost never happen (unless they had a debuff or cover).

But i think you where a over aggressive to kill just 3 x 10 tzaangor. If you go +3 attack and +1 to hit on the 5 brutes for exemple: 

10 brutes will shred 10 tzaangor, 5 brutes will likely skill 10 tzaangor (unless they had a defensive buff) (it seem you where out of luck on that fight as well) then Pig do bunch of damage to Tzaangor. that leave you with an extra CP to maybe reroll the charge (ardboys) or  protect brutes from battleshock in the turn after (but you said you lost 4 brutes and 3 to battleshock, did they had  a -1 to bravery?

Personnaly i'm not as pessismist as @Malakree with Ironjawz. In fact right now they are probably the best baseline of unit cost (all their units are fairly priced). That put them at disavantage against top army, who all have clear undecost unit (Frost Phoenix, Heel, Hag Queen, Tzangoor enlightned, Sequitor for exemple). We are probably missing 2 things: a spell lore and maybe an escalation bonus.

Also, since they are on the low end of the movement, that make them a bit unforgiving. What i mean is that error are more costly. Army like Idoneth (with 14'' and strike first on round 3 for exemple) or DoK (they will just overwhelm some army) something mistake will not matter cause you can easily recover. Note that some Top tier army like Stormcast and Mixed order are also much more less forgiving they are not easy to play, but they are still good army.

That said, bloodtooth is not a good army. If you read thru the previous page, you'll find quites a few players who where loosing and loosing with ironjawz but went to positive win record after dropping the bataillion.  all together with cog is 360 pts for not that great bonus. At the end of the day, an extra 10 brutes is gonna serve you much better.

 

[Luzgurbel]

So, what do you recommend? Drop Bloodtoof (ugh, my army is painted as Bloodtoof haha) for what? I really like the extra 2Cps and 2 items for the cost (ant the Bravery, btw). I can go for a double Ironfist (I don't have enough models to make a Ardfist), for instance.

 

Yep, maybe a bit of bad luck took part on that game, but then I got overwhelmed about the performance of the Enlightened. They also give a 9" aura that force one more model to flee (for that reason I lost 3 Brutes instead of 2. And I had my heroes too far away to give the auto Battleshock pass).

 

I don't want a top tier army. I love Ironjawz, and I will go on playing them, defeat after defeat if it's necessary. However, from my newbie point of view, we have an amazing lack of needed things, such as mentioned own lore magic but also more combos and sinergies. In the end, we have 5 characters and 3 units, and only 4/6 (with Ironsunz and Bloodtoof) battalions playable. 

[Malakree]

34 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

I don't want a top tier army. I love Ironjawz, and I will go on playing them, defeat after defeat if it's necessary. However, from my newbie point of view, we have an amazing lack of needed things, such as mentioned own lore magic but also more combos and sinergies. In the end, we have 5 characters and 3 units, and only 4/6 (with Ironsunz and Bloodtoof) battalions playable

This is exactly why you should play IJ, for a love of the army. It's why I play them.

I do come off as being very pessimistic but primarily that's to make sure people know what they are in for. It's not that we will never win, we are lacking tools and it's an uphill battle but you can take victories. 

Currently I'm still playing bloodtoofs, I'm taking them to bloodtoof and glory!

This is the list I've gotten to. I'm experimenting with the relics/command trait but the units are solid.

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Hysh

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Artefact: Daubing of Mork 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Prism Amyntok 
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (80)
- Allies
Moonclan Grot Shaman (80)
- Allies

Battleline
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)
Bloodtoofs (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 160 / 400
Wounds: 139
 

[Andrew G]

Mileage may vary with this, but I haven't lost with IJ in my last 15 games, and my local group has 10+ people who regularly attend GTs and place well. 3  of those games were in a  20 person local tourney that I won.  I've beaten all current power builds (60-90 witchelf DoK, Idoneth Eel Spam,  LoN with 2x30 Grimghast reapers with 1 cp respawns,Stormcast Sequitor/Evocator spam, Nurgle).  All that to say, I'm not just bashing noobs and now trying to give advice to my fellow IJ players!  

Here's my list of pitfalls I think IJ players fall into though.

1). Overspending on characters- First thing I look at in any IJ list is wound count, and if you're sitting below 140ish wounds, you're most likely overspending on characters.  Every IJ build besides Gorefist functions best as a counter punch build (against good players even Gorefist is pretty much a counter punch build), meaning you need the raw Wounds in your list be able to saturate the board and absorb charges.  

2). Bloodtoofs- It's really obvious to me why 70% of the lists I see posted here and in the Facebook groups I follow are Bloodtoofs. It requires the lowest model count, and it offers a "balanced" playstyle between Gorefist and defensive wound per point lists.  The problem is, straddling that middle area just leaves you with a list that really isn't good at anything. It's too thin to be able to absorb charges and punch back, and too slow to threaten alpha strikes.

3) Magic investment- I'm excluding fungoid generals here, because the command ability actually has a lot of value, but I really question the addition of magic into any list that where it isn't the main focal point. There's just soooo many armies that can bully you in the Magic phase, that casaul 80-240 point investment into a caster+ endless spell is rarely going to recoup its value compared to an equal investment in troops or warchanters.  This point I'm fully willing to admit might be based on my local meta, but in about 80% of my games the only value  I netted out of my fungoid or Weirdnob is turn 1 mystic shield before enemy dispellers get in range and shut him down.

Now, if you're a complete powergamer looking to win a GT, would I recommend you bring IJ? Definitely not, there's better armies out there that are way more consistent and forgiving, but you can definitely be successful with them and compete against top tier builds. 

[broche]

I recommend paying 100 pts for 2 CP, put 140 wound on the board and get the triumph

 Artefact are cool, but 1st one is the most important.  And you can still play ironfist (just drop the blood tooth and the Cog). It will give you an extra 5 brutes, wich is already a good start (2 x 10 brutes is not that easy for exemple to manage for lots of army) and you stay a fast army with Ironfist. 

You are not force to take the bataillion to be playing Orcs from the bloodtooth clan

@Andrew G would love to see some of your list

 

[Andrew G]

Here's the 3 I've been playing @broche.  Sorry for the page stretch, couldn't figure out how to get spoilers to work. 

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Gorefist (190)

Total: 1850 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 137

--------------------------------------------------------------

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
Ardfist (170)

Total: 1890 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 166
---------------------------------------------------------------

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

 

[Banglesprout]

Hey @Andrew G thanks for your thoughts!

It's interesting that you list Bloodtoofs lists as one of the three mistakes people are making, but the third list you've been playing *is* a Bloodtoofs list, so you must think it still can be worthwhile - what makes you take it in that third list?

I'm going to try the following list for my next games - mainly because I want to try a larger unit of Gruntas & Brutes. Not sure whether I wanna keep that 100 points for command points, out try to fill it with something...

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

[brankignole]

2 hours ago, Andrew G said:

Allegiance: Destruction
Mortal Realm: Hysh
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
- Trait: Prophet of the Waaagh! 
- Artefact: Mirrored Cuirass 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Aetherquartz Brooch 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Lens of Refraction 
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
5 x Orruk Brutes (180)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
3 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (140)
Bloodtoofs (120)
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

 

I like your 3rd list because you have the good wound count as well as 1 drop, 3 artefacts ... Did you try to insert a warboss with banner to provide another waaagh generator as well as giving  reroll 1 to wound ?

[Andrew G]

22 minutes ago, Banglesprout said:

Hey @Andrew G thanks for your thoughts!

It's interesting that you list Bloodtoofs lists as one of the three mistakes people are making, but the third list you've been playing *is* a Bloodtoofs list, so you must think it still can be worthwhile - what makes you take it in that third list?

I'm going to try the following list for my next games - mainly because I want to try a larger unit of Gruntas & Brutes. Not sure whether I wanna keep that 100 points for command points, out try to fill it with something...

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (440)
- General
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Warchanter (80)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore Gruntas (280)
10 x Orruk Brutes (360)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ironfist (180)

Total: 1900 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

I just kind of wanted to throw it in there as an example of a "good" bloodtoofs list. I usually play it against the non-tourney guys in my group; losing T1 or summoning 300+ points of 'ardboyz back on the board leaves a sour taste in their mouth.

That said, merits of Bloodtoofs is it makes Brutes playable without having to grab Bravery artifacts.    I was running no  battalion for a while, but because of the scenarios that require wizards/artifact heroes to capture I had to readjust.  If I'm trying to actually compete I bring Gorefist, or the 'ardfist list. 

Also keep off the 100 points IMO. Also go 2x5 with the Brutes and combine 2 of the 'ardboyz into a unit of 20. You can't run units of 10 Brutes without Bloodtoofs, Bravery artifacts, or using CP.  I find the artifacts/CP too valuable, not to mention Waagh! scales way better with MSU brutes compared to larger units of them.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Andrew G

[Andrew G]

25 minutes ago, brankignole said:

I like your 3rd list because you have the good wound count as well as 1 drop, 3 artefacts ... Did you try to insert a warboss with banner to provide another waaagh generator as well as giving  reroll 1 to wound ?

I would consider it if I could just straight swap one of the goregrunta units. The 5 battline requirement for Bloodtoofs, needing the horde discount on the 'ardboyz, and losing 1 drop isn't worth IMO. 

[broche]

This list look solid @Banglesprout

personnaly i really like a pack of 6 gruntas. 3 is ok to chase poorly defended objective, but often fall short of doing something worthwile save for screening. However, 6 gruntas with a warchanter buff can do serious damage (so increase your chance of smash and bash)

[Mr Spadge]

So, I've been playing ironjawz since they were first given their battletome... love the models and the fluff, struggle to win against some competitive builds but I like to think I at least give people a good run for their money...

 

My current list is:

Realm of ulgu 

 

Megaboss on mawkrusha

-general (ironclad)

-doppelganger cloak

 

Weirdnob shaman

-traitors crown?? (Does a mortal wound on 5+ to everymodel in a unit, 3" range, 1 use)

 

Warchanter

-sword of judgement 

 

20 Ardboyz

5 brutes

5 brutes

3 gore gruntas

3 gore gruntas

 

Ironfist

Bloodtoofs

 

Aether void pendulum 

Gnashing jawz

 

1990pts

 

 I'm heading to Nottingham tomorrow and will probably then change my army to:

 

Megaboss on mawkrusha

-general (trait tbc)

-relic tbc (probably still doppleganger)

 

Weirdnob shaman

 

Warchanter

 

10 Ardboyz

10 ardboyz

5 brutes

6 gore gruntas 

 

(Allied) rogue idol

 

Weirdfist batallion

 

2k pts on the dot

 

 

 

I'm hoping that 2 giant monsters can pull their weight, might split up the gruntas into 2x 3 again but they are another hammer if needed... main idea is that I then get foot of gork on a 7+ thanks to the rogue idol and the batallion has the potential to extend its range quite a bit  

 

[Luzgurbel]

I can see that lists are more or less the same, even people still playing Bloodtoof. I also like Ardfist but I don't have so many Ardboys.

 

The main struggle I can see is the choice of items. I prefer those who can avoid mortal wounds on the MK and then in support characters I prefer those that can boost the Bravery or even avoid Battleshocks.

[Malakree]

49 minutes ago, Luzgurbel said:

I can see that lists are more or less the same, even people still playing Bloodtoof. I also like Ardfist but I don't have so many Ardboys.

 

The main struggle I can see is the choice of items. I prefer those who can avoid mortal wounds on the MK and then in support characters I prefer those that can boost the Bravery or even avoid Battleshocks.

I think as a general rule we are no longer able to right other armies. They are to strong and cost efficient.

As a result we are leaning into an attrition style of play which favours ardboys over brutes. This is especially true with the new waaagh! Stacking. The difference between 5 brutes with +1 and 10 ardboys with +1 is almost neglible by the time they have 4+ extra attacks.

60 at 3+/3+/-1/1 or more.

For 20points less you get twice the bodies, way better battleshock, 1/3 again wounds, 6++ save and the drummer/banners.

Personally I'd be trying an ardfist if I could but I'm 60 ardboys short. I do like my current bloodtoofs list though, especially if tournaments start adopting the realm rules/spells and terrain warscrolls like blood and glory has.

Having the potential for really are teleports is helps us unbelievably.