AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Jabbuk]

28 minutes ago, Malakree said:

 

Phone keeps doing double posts. Sorry.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Jabbuk
Double post. I don't know why this happened.

[Jabbuk]

38 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Snipped.

Woah, that's amazing @Malakree. I have double-checked and could actually pick up the Ironskull's in the batallion as they have the same keywords than ardboys. My list could look like this instead:

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
Ardfist (120)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 97
 

That's exactly 1250, I have a unit of 10 spare ardboys to summon, I have 3 CPs when I start and with brooch I could potentially get more. That's really badass. I think I'll take that list instead.

[Jabbuk]

@Malakree, your idea got me thinking and I went ahead and revised my list with the concept of Ardfist in mind.

I think this will be my final list: 

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Warclan: Ironsunz
Orruk Megaboss (150)
- General
- Trait: Right Fist of Dakkbad
- Artefact: Sunzblessed Armour
Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat: Get 'Em Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
4 x Ironskull's Boyz (80)
Ardfist (120)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 92
 

I have my 6 GGs and Brutes as Battleline, and I have 2x5 ardboys + Ironskullz for my Ardfist. I can potentially summon 3x10 ardboys (20 models that I actually own and a recycled group (2x5))

I also had an spare 40 points that I didn't know what to do with it, and remembered that I have a Balewind Vortex lying around. Boom! 40 points. My Shaman could greenpuke like hell since he'll be surrounded by ardboys, hopefully. I feel like this list is really solid. Any flaw I'm not seeing? 

Edited November 13, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Malakree]

44 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

That's amazing, man. Really great advice. There's only one problem though, this army is all the units I have painted and I only have 10 more ardboys primed but not painted

What's a guy to do? Oh yeah, I also have the Ironskull's who could maybe work as a 5unit of ardboys? They can't be part of Ardfist, can they?

Sadly Ironskullz can't be used in an Ardfist. The reason is that the Ardfist doesn't use Keyword Bold. It uses "Orruk Ardboys" which specifically refers to the unit not the keywords.

33 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

That's exactly 1250, I have a unit of 10 spare ardboys to summon, I have 3 CPs when I start and with brooch I could potentially get more. That's really badass. I think I'll take that list instead.

Even if you're just recycling 30 Ardboys it's still a fair bit of pressure. The first unit of 5 goes into the spare 10, your second 5 combines with the first to give you 30.

The other CP's can then be spent on things like run rolls and and Ironsunz charges.

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Sadly Ironskullz can't be used in an Ardfist. The reason is that the Ardfist doesn't use Keyword Bold. It uses "Orruk Ardboys" which specifically refers to the unit not the keywords.

Even if you're just recycling 30 Ardboys it's still a fair bit of pressure. The first unit of 5 goes into the spare 10, your second 5 combines with the first to give you 30.

The other CP's can then be spent on things like run rolls and and Ironsunz charges.

Aww, that's a bummer that to you can't use the Ironskull's in the batallion. I I thought it would've made a great use out of them.

Am I correct to assume that I can try to bring back a group of ardboys using a CP in any phase? Or it's only in the hero phase? The batallion warscrolls doesn't specify it so I guess it's anytime?

[DanteeChaos]

15 hours ago, Oreaper84 said:

unless its on the table....or you play the GHB rules to add one......you dont get the benefit. I think i speak for all when i say it is the most underwhelming CA ever to be printed to a page.

Will GW FAQ this? It seems to be a huge oversight. 

[Jabbuk]

So, after some discussions with the kind folks here, I decided I'd try to run the Ardfist batallion and see how it fares. I was wondering if anyone here had tried it in their list and had some success with it, or if everyone was too scared to waste 4 CPs and not be able to summon anything?

I would also like to validate the mechanic of the Ardfist batallion. Let's say I'm in my opponent's combat phase and he kills a group of 5 ardboys, is this scenario accurate?

- I immediately announce that I will try to bring back a group. (Can I do it in their phase?)

- I have an Aetherquartz Brooch so I roll to see if I get a CP back.

- I use my CP, and roll to see if I get a 4+. I fail.

- I announce that I'll try again. I roll another time for a 5+ for the Brooch, I get one

- I roll a 5 for the Ardfist, I get to bring back a group of 10 ardboys immediately following the rules states in batallion 

Is that a plausible scenario? Meaning that I could try 5 times in a row to bring back a group of ardboys if it fails, given I have the CPs?

If anyone could clarify that, I'd really appreciate it.

Edited November 13, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Skumbaagh]

21 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So, after some discussions with the kind folks here, I decided I'd try to run the Ardfist batallion and see how it fares. I was wondering if anyone here had tried it in their list and had some success with it, or if everyone was too scared to waste 4 CPs and not be able to summon anything?

I have tried it. Spent 6 CP (with brooch giving one back). Got me 1 unit. Even with an average of 4 units per T1 it sometimes does nothing, especially in a five game tournament. I played it in a bloodtoofs list to autoport them into combat T1. Charged 5 boys into Gotrek. I realized that against lists with huge screens and few punchy units you may not have them die in the first two rounds or so. Rules has it that you can not understrength a unit from a battalion so you need to put out 10 MW the first round if you want to kill them yourself.

In a tournament next weekend I will be running a 60 ardboys list with cogs and bring the ardfist as a useful tool rather than building the list around it. I figure a battalion gives me less drops, 1 CP and an artefact and summoning as a bonus. I will run ironsunz to max benefits from the cogs.

[Jabbuk]

19 minutes ago, Skumbaagh said:

I have tried it. Spent 6 CP (with brooch giving one back). Got me 1 unit. Even with an average of 4 units per T1 it sometimes does nothing, especially in a five game tournament. I played it in a bloodtoofs list to autoport them into combat T1. Charged 5 boys into Gotrek. I realized that against lists with huge screens and few punchy units you may not have them die in the first two rounds or so. Rules has it that you can not understrength a unit from a battalion so you need to put out 10 MW the first round if you want to kill them yourself.

In a tournament next weekend I will be running a 60 ardboys list with cogs and bring the ardfist as a useful tool rather than building the list around it. I figure a battalion gives me less drops, 1 CP and an artefact and summoning as a bonus. I will run ironsunz to max benefits from the cogs.

6 CP for 1 unit... Ouch that hurts man. I guess it could happen quite often. I'm just not sure of the reliability of it now. I like the idea, it sounds strong on paper but the reality is that if you have 3CPs and you roll 3 times and you fail all of your shots, you're left there with nothing

[broche]

6 hours ago, DanteeChaos said:

Will GW FAQ this? It seems to be a huge oversight. 

I think they assumed that RAW, it work so there was no need to clarify. So it's more about tournament. Once a couple of big tournament have ruled for it it will probably be the norm after.

[Malakree]

@DanteeChaos @broche

I think to some extent it might depend on how tournaments end up dealing with the OBR terrain piece since that's supposed to go down before terrain deployment. 

They basically decided to tell the tournament scene to go ****** itself with it's pre-rolled/placed terrain etc.

[tripchimeras]

Anyone else thinking about how fun it'd be to take a 1 drop Brawl list at 2k.  I am sure there is another army that can fit a mega battalion into 2k, but can't think of one off top of my head.  The funny thing is it actually intersects perfectly with the msu wrath of gork gimmick.

You can afford everything you need for the wrath of gork spam and get all of the msu units to make it roll.  Plus how many 1 drop lists are still roaming around out there, old ironjawz was pretty much all that was left right?  Again not saying it is remotely optimal but now that I have realized it's possible I really want to try it some time:

Aqshy
IronSunz

1 Weirdnob shaman (General) -
Wrath of Gork
Master of Weird, Shamanic Skullcape

1 Megaboss -
Sunzblessed Armour

1 warchanter -
Ignax Scales, Fixin Beat

3x5 Brutes

6x5 Ardboyz

Battalions:
3 ironfists
1 Brawl

Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex
Maelstrom

2000pts.

 

edit: you are looking at 5 command points turn 1, 3 free mighty destroyers, and wrath on a +2 that is going to kill a hero nearly every single time it is cast.  For a super battalion list that is barely possible, and gives you essentially no flexibility at 2k it seems surprisingly not terrible, not amazing, but not terrible.

Edited November 13, 2019 by tripchimeras

[DanteeChaos]

Question about the Ardfist:

When a unit of Ardboyz dies, can you 'summon' multiple units (spending multiple CPs) or are you allowed to only bring back 1 unit?

The rules are written in such a way that I think it's possible to bring back multiple units (since you're spending CPs each time you attempt to use the command ability), however, I have a feeling that the designers' intention was different.

[Malakree]

13 minutes ago, DanteeChaos said:

Question about the Ardfist:

When a unit of Ardboyz dies, can you 'summon' multiple units (spending multiple CPs) or are you allowed to only bring back 1 unit?

The rules are written in such a way that I think it's possible to bring back multiple units (since you're spending CPs each time you attempt to use the command ability), however, I have a feeling that the designers' intention was different.

You can be back as many as you roll.

I'm hoping they errata it so you can spend as many CP's as you want but can only get 1 unit back. So if you roll like ****** it takes you 4 to get the unit, if you roll like a god it costs you 1 CP but any extra CP/4+ rolls don't give you another Ardboy unit.

[Neomaxim]

I think the fluff implication has always been that Orks fighting and dying draws even more Orks from all over... thus how Waaaghs get going, and keep growing.  Their idea was probably to let the death of one unit summon however many you happen to have the CP + luck to get.

Whether that is good/healthy for the game is a wildly different discussion.   Slightly cynically, the rise in summoning / model recursion feels like a rule-writing suggestion that might've been born out of its good business sense.

[Malakree]

30 minutes ago, Neomaxim said:

I think the fluff implication has always been that Orks fighting and dying draws even more Orks from all over... thus how Waaaghs get going, and keep growing.  Their idea was probably to let the death of one unit summon however many you happen to have the CP + luck to get.

If they leave it I'm going to be building up my Ardboy numbers until I can take like ~150/200 for it.

I think the most you could run in a list is ~100 so up till that point it's reasonable.

37 minutes ago, Neomaxim said:

Whether that is good/healthy for the game is a wildly different discussion.   Slightly cynically, the rise in summoning / model recursion feels like a rule-writing suggestion that might've been born out of its good business sense.

Definitely.

[Neomaxim]

Don't get me wrong... I feel like an ever-expanding tide of Orks is a rare time where fluff, and a desire to sell more align pretty reasonably.  There are certainly worse offenders....  *coughKeeperofSecretspamcough*  😛

[Jabbuk]

With the release of the new Grots on wolves warband in Beastgrave, they released some cards art that is new. Remember when I posted one with a badass orc that looked like he had a skull on his head and bare-chested? Well here he is again. Do you guys think he's a Savage Orruks or a Brute? Or both? 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Vasshpit]

@Jabbuk

Looks like a counts as alternate Warchanter sculpt to me. 😉

[Gothmaug]

31 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

With the release of the new Grots on wolves warband in Beastgrave, they released some cards art that is new. Remember when I posted one with a badass orc that looked like he had a skull on his head and bare-chested? Well here he is again. Do you guys think he's a Savage Orruks or a Brute? Or both? 

With that skull exactly matching the one in the standard brute kit, I’d say Brute. Also apparently his name is Morgok. 
 

well after being passed over by GW for any new models/spells/terrain, at this point any new unit possibilities make me happy.

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

@Jabbuk

Looks like a counts as alternate Warchanter sculpt to me. 😉

Yeah, at least some kind of caster unit. Warchanter makes sense. 

8 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

With that skull exactly matching the one in the standard brute kit, I’d say Brute. Also apparently his name is Morgok. 
 

well after being passed over by GW for any new models/spells/terrain, at this point any new unit possibilities make me happy.

That's why I'm so hyped about this. A new IJ model? Count me in. How do you know his name?

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, Vasshpit said:

@Jabbuk

Looks like a counts as alternate Warchanter sculpt to me. 😉

Yeah, at least some kind of caster unit. Warchanter makes sense. 

8 hours ago, Gothmaug said:

With that skull exactly matching the one in the standard brute kit, I’d say Brute. Also apparently his name is Morgok. 
 

well after being passed over by GW for any new models/spells/terrain, at this point any new unit possibilities make me happy.

That's why I'm so hyped about this. A new IJ model? Count me in. How do you know his name? (Oh! The quote! I hadn't even noticed. I thought it was the goblins talking. Lol)

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Gothmaug]

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

Yeah, at least some kind of caster unit. Warchanter makes sense. 

That's why I'm so hyped about this. A new IJ model? Count me in. How do you know his name? (Oh! The quote! I hadn't even noticed. I thought it was the goblins talking. Lol)

The lack of armor and skull on his head also points towards a bonesplitta wardokk. But the other cards in the set all show armored brutes, so yeah a new warchanter makes sense.

OR it’s a mixed Warclans warband. If that happens, please, please GW put both the ironjawz and bone splitters keywords on the warscroll so either army can use it outside a Warclans army build.

[Jabbuk]

I'm pondering about the usefulness of the Ardfist battalion and why they decided to put it on a 4+. It makes it very unreliable.

I feel like it's a battalion that's a nice to have in an already strong list by itself. If it doesn't work out and you burn 4 CPs and didn't get a unit back, then you can still rely on your list anyway. At lower points (1250), it feels like too much of a risk. It's cool on paper but if it doesn't work out, you're left with too few units to still hold your ground. Do you guys feel the same way?

[Malakree]

2 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

I'm pondering about the usefulness of the Ardfist battalion and why they decided to put it on a 4+. It makes it very unreliable.

I feel like it's a battalion that's a nice to have in an already strong list by itself. If it doesn't work out and you burn 4 CPs and didn't get a unit back, then you can still rely on your list anyway. At lower points (1250), it feels like too much of a risk. It's cool on paper but if it doesn't work out, you're left with too few units to still hold your ground. Do you guys feel the same way?

If it wasn't a 4+ the only armies atm would be ardfists summoning walls of Ardboys.

At 1250 for example I could run this list

Quote

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!

Leaders
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General
- Trait: Dead Kunnin'
- Artefact: Great Green Visions
- Lore of the Weird: Da Great Big Green Hand of Gork
Orruk Warchanter (110)

Battleline
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas
5 x Orruk Brutes (140)
- Pair of Brute Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Ardfist (120)
Brute Fist (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1200 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 87

• Starts with 3 command points
• Get an additional D3 CP, lets call it 1 from the trait
• You also have the the 4+ from GGV but lets ignore that
• We'll also ignore Aetherquartz.
• Lastly you get 1 CP from the start of your turn.
• Turn 1, you have 5 command points

1. Deploy defensively to bubble and protect the Warchanter+Weirdnob, use the Brutes and 1 unit of Ardboys.
2. 3 Drops so should get to pick first or second.
3. Roll for your Waaagh! points, get 2+d6 and can burn a CP for +2.
4. Hand of Gork the unit of 5 Ardboys.
5. Make a 7" charge.
6. Ardboys die.
7. Summon 40 Ardboys.

This is your WORST case scenario. Things which can make it better. Commanding, Deadly, Damned, Arcane, Volcanic,  rolling a 4+ on your Waaagh! dice, Aetherquartz Broach, rolling more than 1 CP from the trait, rolling an extra CP from the artefact.

Conservatively you're pulling 50 Ardboys on your turn 1 as a 3 drop army. That's 900 points of Ardboys, so I get to start the game with 2100 points in a 1250 points game. At 2k it gets even worse.

That's why it's on a 4+.