Let's chat Stormcast Eternals

[Immersturm]

I see a lot of love for the Raptors and some love for the Aquilor. However, has anyone tried to incorporate Hunters and Palladors into their lists? Hunters are more mobile than XBow Judicators and when coupled with a charge, they do slightly more damage compared to rapid-firing Judis for slightly less.

However, I am sort of indifferent towards the Hunters. Maybe one unit instead Liberators, but the current core troops are solid and the only ones valid if one is to skip the Aquilor.

What I really want to know is how to use the Palladors. They seem like solid objective grabbers, especially with the Aquilor. I would arm them with javelins since they can not charge after doing the 6D6 move and since they are better served attacking armoured units anyway. But I can not shake the feeling that they compete with Dracoths and that the latter ones are superior due to their sheer hitting power (although less wounds per points spent), especially when considering the cheaper Vexillor, the existence of the Heraldor and the Lightning Chariot prayer...

Any thoughts?

[Requizen]

I think they're both quite viable and good, but not exactly straightforward. I won't be using Hunters for a while because I'm quite happy with Libs/Judis and I need to finish painting everything else first, but I think they're very solid regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a new common Battleline with how good the Aquilor is. Though Liberators screening Bows + Staunch Defenders is serious hotness.

I'm very much warming up to Palladors. I think they're going to be a really good option, though again it's a different playstyle. They'll be much better at picking off small, important units or flanking for the anvil of the main force. 

I think people who want to have more finesse will find the Vanguard units to their liking. The repositioning available with the Aquilor's trait, the Hunter's Compass, and Ride the Winds all come together to make a force that hits as hard or nearly as hard as baseline Stormcast but with the ability to play the board, without relying on Scions of the Storm or a Battalion.

[Turragor]

3 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I think they're both quite viable and good, but not exactly straightforward. I won't be using Hunters for a while because I'm quite happy with Libs/Judis and I need to finish painting everything else first, but I think they're very solid regardless. I wouldn't be surprised if they became a new common Battleline with how good the Aquilor is. Though Liberators screening Bows + Staunch Defenders is serious hotness.

I'm very much warming up to Palladors. I think they're going to be a really good option, though again it's a different playstyle. They'll be much better at picking off small, important units or flanking for the anvil of the main force. 

I think people who want to have more finesse will find the Vanguard units to their liking. The repositioning available with the Aquilor's trait, the Hunter's Compass, and Ride the Winds all come together to make a force that hits as hard or nearly as hard as baseline Stormcast but with the ability to play the board, without relying on Scions of the Storm or a Battalion.

I was thinking as I wrote my latest battle report (v Ironjawz) that vanguard mobility is perfect to counter some forces that have previously been tough for Stormcast - like Ironjawz.

Ironjawz are a big fast ball of hurt.

Stormcast weren't the most mobile (not against ironfist formations), they didn't have the very best combat troops (not when facing megabosses and brutes only), their ranged mostly tickle ironjawz.

Now I think of a force of Stormcast where they're always all over the board - lightning striking, deploying on the flanks, repositioning, being setup elsewhere.

That big fast ball is much less effective when it has to try to split to deal with multiple individual threats moving rapidly.

I like how GW seem to have given Stormcast more tools. They could have pushed them more towards the 'elite inhumanly strong' category like giving retributors battleline or something nuts.

Instead they've worked on them in a way that fits their fluff - they're meant to be a complete and well honed fighting force, consumate in whatever form of battle they choose (but not the best).

So they're strong and tough yes, but let other factions have the mantle of strongest and toughest. They're now fast and slippery, but let other factions have the mantle of fastest and slipperiest.

 

[chord]

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

And once again, the Prime proves to be about 100 points too expensive Even if they just put 1 or 2 extra attacks on his baseline so we didn't have to wait so long to bring him in it would be enough.


 

Agreed, I don't know why they didn't lower his points.  They had the opportunity. 

[Requizen]

My way of describing Stormcast is that we're the Jack of All Trades army. Maybe a bit on the strong side when it comes to everything - better than average shooting, better than average toughness, now better than average mobility - but never the top in any category. Just a big toolkit that happens to work really well in a lot of situations.

[Malakithe]

My take on a high mobility shooty army...

[Immersturm]

I can see Palladors to be decent in missions like Gift from the Heavens (was that the name? it is the one where you need hold the dropping meteorite) to snag it away. Not sure how many I would run. I am tending towards 6 in a unit, but that is fairly pricy (almost en par with Dracoths).

Also, why is the Aquilor considered so solid? He chopps very well, but I never take SCE heroes solely for chopping stuff, but to support. Leave the hitting power to Paladins and Dracoths. Is there a point to taking the Aquilor if you can not make use of his Command Trait and a unit that actually benefit from it? Longstrikes do not benefit as much, whereas Palladors would benefit a lot. But still, this is a world where Lightning Chariot prayers exist and better Command Traits from the other Celestants.

[kozokus]

4 hours ago, Immersturm said:

Also, why is the Aquilor considered so solid? He chopps very well, but I never take SCE heroes solely for chopping stuff, but to support. Leave the hitting power to Paladins and Dracoths. Is there a point to taking the Aquilor if you can not make use of his Command Trait and a unit that actually benefit from it? Longstrikes do not benefit as much, whereas Palladors would benefit a lot. But still, this is a world where Lightning Chariot prayers exist and better Command Traits from the other Celestants.

Mh.

Lightning chatiot can miss, the command don't. Plus, Longstrike can benefit too from it as 24-30" can sometimes fall short and you can redeploy them on any edge, covering the whole map. Plus you are also redeploying the Aquilor and nothing force you to put him in the same place withe the longstrikes.

Speaking of commands abilities, this is one of the best as the ones from the LCoD and LCoSD are meh and the one from the LC on foot can be pretty hard to put online with such a short range.

[BURF1]

4 hours ago, Immersturm said:

I can see Palladors to be decent in missions like Gift from the Heavens (was that the name? it is the one where you need hold the dropping meteorite) to snag it away. Not sure how many I would run. I am tending towards 6 in a unit, but that is fairly pricy (almost en par with Dracoths).

Also, why is the Aquilor considered so solid? He chopps very well, but I never take SCE heroes solely for chopping stuff, but to support. Leave the hitting power to Paladins and Dracoths. Is there a point to taking the Aquilor if you can not make use of his Command Trait and a unit that actually benefit from it? Longstrikes do not benefit as much, whereas Palladors would benefit a lot. But still, this is a world where Lightning Chariot prayers exist and better Command Traits from the other Celestants.

The biggest thing is that the Aquilor makes longstrikes absolute cancer to deal with. Basically if your opponent doesn't completely paper the board or get a double turn they'll never be able to touch them, you'll just blast a unit or 2 to death every turn and then fade away and at the same time you can use the aquilor to finish things off if you need to because the Command ability has a 24" range.

[Cinncinnatus]

If you bring a Tempest Lords Harbinger battalion, do you really need to pay for the Vanguard wings as well? I thought you just needed the 140 points?

[BURF1]

5 minutes ago, Cinncinnatus said:

If you bring a Tempest Lords Harbinger battalion, do you really need to pay for the Vanguard wings as well? I thought you just needed the 140 points?

Yeah, you have to pay for all the sub battalions in the larger battalions.

[Turragor]

Yep 240 which would be why that formation is best focusing on the prosecutors, judicators and liberators (and winged heroes) I think. Quite points heavy.

[Requizen]

4 hours ago, Immersturm said:

I can see Palladors to be decent in missions like Gift from the Heavens (was that the name? it is the one where you need hold the dropping meteorite) to snag it away. Not sure how many I would run. I am tending towards 6 in a unit, but that is fairly pricy (almost en par with Dracoths).

Also, why is the Aquilor considered so solid? He chopps very well, but I never take SCE heroes solely for chopping stuff, but to support. Leave the hitting power to Paladins and Dracoths. Is there a point to taking the Aquilor if you can not make use of his Command Trait and a unit that actually benefit from it? Longstrikes do not benefit as much, whereas Palladors would benefit a lot. But still, this is a world where Lightning Chariot prayers exist and better Command Traits from the other Celestants.

The Aquilor is great because he gives you another reliable way to provide uncharacteristic mobility to the army. Starting Raptors on the back edge of your board only to move them in range on T1 is amazing, a sudden flank with Palladors can cause some serious confusion and chaos in your opponent's lines. Even Hunters can benefit, though they're mostly going to use it to get out of a bad spot or onto an objective than to bumrush something.

Additionally, he's just pretty tough. Though missing the reroll 1 of the LCoD, he has a 3+ and 7 wounds, so he can pop into Cover for a 2+. If you give him Shielded by Faith as his Command Trait and Armour of Destiny as his Artifact, he's rocking a 3+ (boostable to 2+), 5+ against MWs, and 6+ Ward Save. While the LCoD can also do this, he's often taking Staunch Defender since he's going to be with the main force, while the LA will be flanking and can focus on more personal survival abilities.

17 minutes ago, kozokus said:

Mh.

Lightning chatiot can miss, the command don't. Plus, Longstrike can benefit too from it as 24-30" can sometimes fall short and you can redeploy them on any edge, covering the whole map. Plus you are also redeploying the Aquilor and nothing force you to put him in the same place withe the longstrikes.

Speaking of commands abilities, this is one of the best as the ones from the LCoD and LCoSD are meh and the one from the LC on foot can be pretty hard to put online with such a short range.

I agree about being more reliable than Lightning Chariot. 3+ is pretty good, automatic is better. And Lightning Chariot forces you to be 3" away from the friendly unit, while Azyrite Hurricane has a 24" range, so you can still do things while keeping that in your back pocket.

Disagree about LCoD command trait. Fearless bubble is amazing, makes your Liberator wall even more difficult to shift.

9 minutes ago, Turragor said:

Yep 240 which would be why that formation is best focusing on the prosecutors, judicators and liberators (and winged heroes) I think. Quite points heavy.

If you're running any of the big Battalions, you're running MSU. There's just no other way given how many points you're losing on Battalion buy-in. Maybe you can get away with big units of Paladins on Celestial Vindicators, but even that leaves you with an insanely small army.

[Turragor]

4 minutes ago, Requizen said:

If you're running any of the big Battalions, you're running MSU. There's just no other way given how many points you're losing on Battalion buy-in. Maybe you can get away with big units of Paladins on Celestial Vindicators, but even that leaves you with an insanely small army.

I don't know if I agree. Maybe I just misunderstand MSU (many small units?)

When thinking of Vanguard Wing or battalions that boost the units in the battalion I feel like you can build around that.

In the Tempest Lords vanguard wing I want to take a big unit of libs. I want to boost the javelin prosecutors to make the most of the battalion bonuses.

You don't necessarily end up with a small army. You have fewer units but the same or more bodies, depending.

Maybe what you do end up with is a 'eggs in fewer baskets' approach. I guess most armies that focus on a build of buffs and bonuses can be the same.

[Austin]

The Aquilor is amazing for shifting units out of the way of massive pain train units like Brutes. You can really draw the other army out of alignment. I suppose the risk is that a very heavily armored unit could just ignore the potshots from Hunters, if that is the case you can just trust in the awesomeness that is Longstrikes. How annoying would it be to devote the resources to tracking down a unit of those guys only to have the Aquilor pull them across the table?

I personally think the LCoD battleshock bubble is key,  but having this new option is nice. 

[Turragor]

I am tempted by this for my next tournament next month. I want to trial more exciting things but I need more time and games to see what shenanigans I can get up to (and new units I can paint).

So this is a safe idea with a few new elements (and managable model painting goals for 1.5 months):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord Aquilor (200)
- General
- Trait: Shielded by Faith - Stormcast Eternals
- Artefact: Armour of Destiny
- Gryph-Charger Trait: Aethereal Stalker
Lord Relictor (80)
- Prayer: Bless Weapons
- Gryph-Charger Trait: Aethereal Stalker
Knight Venator (120)
- Artefact: Luckstone

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
- Stormcast Eternals Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades

Units
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80)
- 1x Stormsurge Trident
5 x Paladin Protectors (200)
- 2x Starsoul Mace
10 x Paladin Retributors (440)
- 4x Starsoul Mace
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (360)
1 x Gryph-Hound (40)

Battalions
Hammerstrike Force (120)

Total: 2000/2000

[Paul_Veyne]

Just a quick question with regards to the Lords of Storm Battalion. Can you use the wave of Celestial Might several times? If for example you had three clumps of three heroes facing off three or more different enemy units? I have read it a few times now but can't seem to see why you can't. Help much appreciated! 

Cheers

[Erdemo86]

32 minutes ago, Turragor said:

I am tempted by this for my next tournament next month. I want to trial more exciting things but I need more time and games to see what shenanigans I can get up to (and new units I can paint).

So this is a safe idea with a few new elements (and managable model painting goals for 1.5 months):

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

Leaders
Lord Aquilor (200)
- General
- Trait: Shielded by Faith - Stormcast Eternals
- Artefact: Armour of Destiny
- Gryph-Charger Trait: Aethereal Stalker
Lord Relictor (80)
- Prayer: Bless Weapons
- Gryph-Charger Trait: Aethereal Stalker
Knight Venator (120)
- Artefact: Luckstone

Battleline
5 x Judicators (160)
- Skybolt Bows
- 1x Shockbolt Bow
- Stormcast Eternals Battleline
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandhammers
5 x Liberators (100)
- Warhammer & Shield
- 1x Grandblades

Units
3 x Prosecutors with Stormcall Javelins (80)
- 1x Stormsurge Trident
5 x Paladin Protectors (200)
- 2x Starsoul Mace
10 x Paladin Retributors (440)
- 4x Starsoul Mace
6 x Vanguard-Raptors with Longstrike Crossbows (360)
1 x Gryph-Hound (40)

Battalions
Hammerstrike Force (120)

Total: 2000/2000

I like your list, looks like mine. But why you take Aquilor? His general abilty will not help, cause you only can use it on your Raptors and they dont need it with a range of 30". Think it would be stronger if you change him for a lord celestant and castellant or something else. Or a LCoD who is stronger in your list.

[Requizen]

4 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

I like your list, looks like mine. But why you take Aquilor? His general abilty will not help, cause you only can use it on your Raptors and they dont need it with a range of 30". Think it would be stronger if you change him for a lord celestant and castellant or something else. Or a LCoD who is stronger in your list.

As discussed above at length, the Aquilor's ability is actually quite good on the Raptors. 30" range seems like a lot until you start measuring to things you need to shoot. Buffing characters behind massive walls, backfield artillery, fast units that need to be killed from a range, etc. The Aquilor puts them in range, 100% of the time instead of only sometimes.

The other ability is to bodyguard that expensive Raptor unit. 6 Raptors is 360 points, and if it gets charged by a wall of Khorne or Orruks, it'll have a bad time. Baiting them in, and then teleporting to the complete opposite side of the field to shoot safely, is top notch. 

[Turragor]

10 minutes ago, Erdemo86 said:

I like your list, looks like mine. But why you take Aquilor? His general abilty will not help, cause you only can use it on your Raptors and they dont need it with a range of 30". Think it would be stronger if you change him for a lord celestant and castellant or something else. Or a LCoD who is stronger in your list.

Tis as Requizen says, I think the Aquilor Raptor combo could see some really strong uses.

[BURF1]

1 hour ago, Turragor said:

Tis as Requizen says, I think the Aquilor Raptor combo could see some really strong uses.

Just remember that it does count as moving so it drops your range down to 24, still amazing just not totally busted.

[ledha]

1 hour ago, Chrisdanish said:

Just a quick question with regards to the Lords of Storm Battalion. Can you use the wave of Celestial Might several times? If for example you had three clumps of three heroes facing off three or more different enemy units? I have read it a few times now but can't seem to see why you can't. Help much appreciated! 

Cheers

you use it only one time. Being in range of 3 hero mean the ennemy unit will suffer 3 mortal wound instead of 1

[crazyhorse1321]

Here is a list I was thinking about. Any thoughts

LEADERS

Lord Castellant (100) - General - Command Trait : Staunch Defender - Artefact : Obstinate Blade - Mystic Light : Fury Brand

Lord Celestant (100) - Artefact : Armour of Destiny

Lord Relictor (80) - Prayer : Bless Weapons

Knight Venator (120) - Artefact : Obsidian Amulet

Knight Heraldor (120)

Knight Azyros (80)

UNITS

10 x Judicators (320) - Skybolt Bows - 2 x Shockbolt Bow - Stormcast Eternals Battleline

10 x Judicators (320) - Skybolt Bows - 2 x Shockbolt Bow - Stormcast Eternals Battleline

5 x Judicators (160) - Skybolt Bows - 1 x Shockbolt Bow - Stormcast Eternals Battleline

5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - 1 x Grandhammers - Battleline

5 x Liberators (100) - Warblade & Shield - 1 x Grandblades - Battleline

5 x Liberators (100) - Warhammer & Shield - Battleline

1 x Gryph-Hound (40)

BATTALIONS

Anvils of the Heldenhammer Warrior Chamber (80)

Thunderhead Brotherhood (80)

Lords of the Storm (100)

WOUNDS: 114 TOTAL POINTS: 2000 / 2000

[Let's 'ere it for da boyz!]

On 2/26/2017 at 6:17 AM, Siegfried VII said:

Regarding the raptor debate the better choise are the Longstrike ones. It is not only a matter of damage output (which unless you're facing a unit of 5+ save and the hurricane ones have not moved the longstrike are better) but also a matter of range. 12 inches more range is a huge difference if they remain stationed and 6 inches when both units move is again substantial.

I didn't do anything in depth, but crunching the numbers in my head, I felt the Hurricane Xbow Raptors won out.

The sheer number of attacks they get is silly.  They aren't doing nearly as much damage per shot, but when a unit of 3 is doing 18-27 shots, versus just three for the Longstrke Raptors....big disparity.

Assuming a 4+ armor opposing unit, the Hurricane raptors are hitting 9/13.5 times, wounding 4.5/6.75 times and getting 2.25/3.375 through that armor.

By contrast, the longstrikes will hit 2.5 times, wound 1.667 times and get about 1.4 of those wounds through that same 4+ armor. They are doing 2 damage per unsaved wound though, so that gets them up to an average of 2.8 per turn for a unit of three.

All those dice will make the hurricane guys a lot more swingy damage-wise from round to round.  The suppressing fire deal is also gravy.  These guys are cheaper by 20 pts per three models to boot.  You are right though, the extra 12" of potential range is a big deal.

It's definitely a question of quantity versus quality of shots.  I really love the idea of the longstrike raptors, I'm just not sure how useful they are.  

Somebody please convince me otherwise, because I'll probably build a few units regardless!

[twrightii]

Actually, the more dice you roll the closer to a statistical average you are and thus less swingy. You will have very good rounds with long strikes and some very poor rounds where the hurricanes will be much more consistent and reliable.

For me however it is that rend 2 that is the jam along with the deep range. The -2 to charge is pretty sweet, but with all the movement tricks the vanguard have I'm quite sure how good it is.

For me the real question is which would I prefer to face against, and its the hurricanes I'm less scared of every time.