GeneralZero Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 minute ago, stratigo said: having another 760 points in a game is stronger than pretty much any buff really. By turn 5 you could legitimately have summoned over 800 points of units. That's quite a lot. How can you know that in AoS 2???? You are just assuming things in the AoS 1 context, which is dead in 1 week! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: While you generate points, you don't do some other deadly things, buffs, debuffs, protect, etc...making a big point unit (slann) half of its value for one or 2 turns. Slann doesn't have too much other deadly things or good buffs to cast with the new basic spells, besides the skink spells you get with the command traits. The ability to summon stuff instead of casting spells is in my eyes big buff for him. At least based on what we know now. With the malign sorcery in it might be different, but that's also add on content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jamopower said: With the malign sorcery in it might be different that's what I'm saying. From what we have already seen, magic will be strong. BIG WIZZARDS will have a big buff/debuff/destruction power with endless spells, and all the incoming (50!) spells. By Summoning, you won't cast those spells while your oponent may do so and eventually kill your sleeping slann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I'm still kind of on the side of summoning being a bit imbalanced and exploitable for Seraphon according to what we have seen, but I'd hope that if it is they will nerf it quickly in the first FAQs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 12 minutes ago, GeneralZero said: that's what I'm saying. From what we have already seen, magic will be strong. BIG WIZZARDS will have a big buff/debuff/destruction power with endless spells, and all the incoming (50!) spells. By Summoning, you won't cast those spells while your oponent may do so and eventually kill your sleeping slann Yes, but as far as I have understood, the Malign sorcery is similar add on content as Malign portents. It's not part of the basic rules and as I said, it is a completely different scenario then when you are including them into the mix. I for one most likely won't get the book or the spell models as I don't find them particularly interesting, except for some special scenarios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebiggesthat Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I do think that GW have handled the information release badly this time. The faction focuses have been far too much on what the army currently plays like and why you should buy it (yes, yes, it's a business etc). The rules have been drip fed out to create hype, but this seems to have created a load of ill feeling that is pretty un-needed. I have lost faith in the new edition already with how things have been released. You have the lead designer in Whatsapp groups telling different bits of info, war-scrolls already reading like you need a codebreaker for context. Just tell us the changes. Stop all this uncertainty, stop those that are worried about having to buy a tonne more army to play worrying. I'll never completely stop playing AoS. I might not like the new rules previewed so far or the new releases, but I have probably 10k of points over three factions. I just wish it wasn't this drip drip drip. I can't even keep up with what people seem cross at these days, and I think that's half the problem. If you give someone 10% of the answer, the other 90% will be theory-hammered out, and will incorporate each person's fears and wishes. You can still hype stuff and give us some proper information. Just do a day on summoning, chat about how the play-testers have worked to balance it. A day on magic, how you designed the changes, what they are and how you see it changing the game. Otherwise, people fill in the blanks. Me personally, I think the following when it's all whispers and drips. It's not balanced, it's there to make people buy models or follow the meta. Both might be true, hopefully not. But the thought is in my head and it frames how I approach the subject going forward. If I had someone explain better, I'd not be thinking ' So I have to buy Alarielle just to compete', which becomes 'GW just want me to buy more models', which just creates a negative opinion of the company and all the associated people, such as the playtest team. If it's explained better, then I might think 'Ahh cool, I'm informed so trust what's happening' and that becomes 'oh man, I could add Alarielle, finally she can use her ability'. Sometimes, you just need to spell it out. Things are all going in the right direction, I just think they need to get better with communication, and remember that the game belongs to the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trayanee Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, stratigo said: having another 760 points in a game is stronger than pretty much any buff really. By turn 5 you could legitimately have summoned over 800 points of units. That's quite a lot. It's not 760 points you have available from start. Units summoned turn 5 may attempt one lucky 9" charge and that's it. Turn 4 summons may move once and considering they will appear 12" from Slann, who has to hide himself the whole game, they have a long journey ahead and so on. Its really easy to call it free 760 points but the reality is vastly different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Trayanee said: It's not 760 points you have available from start. Units summoned turn 5 may attempt one lucky 9" charge and that's it. Turn 4 summons may move once and considering they will appear 12" from Slann, who has to hide himself the whole game, they have a long journey ahead and so on. Its really easy to call it free 760 points but the reality is vastly different At last someone who see's the point! Summoning is a CHOICE, but not as strong as it seems. It has a price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, Trayanee said: It's not 760 points you have available from start. Units summoned turn 5 may attempt one lucky 9" charge and that's it. Turn 4 summons may move once and considering they will appear 12" from Slann, who has to hide himself the whole game, they have a long journey ahead and so on. Its really easy to call it free 760 points but the reality is vastly different It's not that simple. Remember that the game is usually about controlling objectives and denying space from the opponent is an important part of the game, for which skinks are an excellent unit. Lizardmen also have the ability to teleport stuff around pretty freely. A summoned unit on turn 5 can easily win the game without charging anything, they just need to be summoned on (or summoned and teleported on) an objective. Even without summoning, the Sepraphon are very good at playing the objectives and adding up a free skink unit or two per turn is not in any way a meaningless addition to the mix. Also it's good to remember that you can summon the stuff also from the Astrolith bearer and you'll get additional summoning from the engine of the gods if you want to really push it (and if it happens to be as good as the intitial feeling is, you probably want). There is potential for it to be very good on the table and as minimum it will still make them better than now. It's not direct path to glory, rare things are, but it can be very powerful ability combined to what there is already. Similarly, if horrors split for free, it's not alone a ground shattering ability, but when you combine it to the scenarios, the other strengths Tzeentch have etc. It can make playing against Tzeentch a very frustrating experience (even more than it is now?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stato Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 17 minutes ago, Thebiggesthat said: I do think that GW have handled the information release badly this time. The faction focuses have been far too much on what the army currently plays like and why you should buy it (yes, yes, it's a business etc). Spoiler The rules have been drip fed out to create hype, but this seems to have created a load of ill feeling that is pretty un-needed. I have lost faith in the new edition already with how things have been released. You have the lead designer in Whatsapp groups telling different bits of info, war-scrolls already reading like you need a codebreaker for context. Just tell us the changes. Stop all this uncertainty, stop those that are worried about having to buy a tonne more army to play worrying. I'll never completely stop playing AoS. I might not like the new rules previewed so far or the new releases, but I have probably 10k of points over three factions. I just wish it wasn't this drip drip drip. I can't even keep up with what people seem cross at these days, and I think that's half the problem. If you give someone 10% of the answer, the other 90% will be theory-hammered out, and will incorporate each person's fears and wishes. You can still hype stuff and give us some proper information. Just do a day on summoning, chat about how the play-testers have worked to balance it. A day on magic, how you designed the changes, what they are and how you see it changing the game. Otherwise, people fill in the blanks. Me personally, I think the following when it's all whispers and drips. It's not balanced, it's there to make people buy models or follow the meta. Both might be true, hopefully not. But the thought is in my head and it frames how I approach the subject going forward. If I had someone explain better, I'd not be thinking ' So I have to buy Alarielle just to compete', which becomes 'GW just want me to buy more models', which just creates a negative opinion of the company and all the associated people, such as the playtest team. If it's explained better, then I might think 'Ahh cool, I'm informed so trust what's happening' and that becomes 'oh man, I could add Alarielle, finally she can use her ability'. Sometimes, you just need to spell it out. Things are all going in the right direction, I just think they need to get better with communication, and remember that the game belongs to the community. This has been said before (maybe by you?). Loads of us love the teasers, have fun reading about them and discussing possibilities. Some people do seem to be getting very worked up about some aspects, despite knowing they dont know everything (you even admit that in your post). Sure GW could give out extra detail to some parts, but if people are finding ways to complain now they will just find some other way to complain its unbalanced, especially when only one aspect is fully fleshed out per day. The only way to know the full implications of changes is to have all the rules in your hand, so that means no teasers at all, and thats very boring and spoils it for the many of us who can read the articles and enjoy what they give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 If they told us all changes that would be the release and not a preview. Some may not like the preview format but it seem to be much better received in general than what we had before, which was a date and nothing else. Remember the initial release of AoS? Ouch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I for one love the speculation part of the new releases. The actual release is usually lot less interesting than the lead up on it. It's fun to think out how the new things will shake up the game and then later see if it really went so. Also regarding discussion boards, the speculation period is usually the time which sparks discussion. At our Finnish wargaming forum, the time before the new 40k edition, there was a lot of discussion about it and after it was finally released the discussion died almost totally. Have to say, that for me, the final release was quite of a disappointment as there were many rules that were like "I suppose this is not all of it as this isn't so good" and then eventually it was the final version. Let's see how it goes with AoS. At least most of the additions this far have been really nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemondish Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 8 hours ago, Gotrek said: That...thats literally what he said... if the summoned unit cant fit wholly within X distance of the summoner and Y away from enemies you cant summon as opposed to some others (more obscure and older mechanics, i cant think of any by name but i do remember the wording being a thing) that specify that any models that cant fit in the "goldilocks zone" are dead but the rest are fine I'm sorry, I think he said that you'd be able to put whatever models would fit rather than the unit remaining unsummoned. I think that's fundamentally different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebiggesthat Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 27 minutes ago, stato said: This has been said before (maybe by you?). Loads of us love the teasers, have fun reading about them and discussing possibilities. Some people do seem to be getting very worked up about some aspects, despite knowing they dont know everything (you even admit that in your post). Sure GW could give out extra detail to some parts, but if people are finding ways to complain now they will just find some other way to complain its unbalanced, especially when only one aspect is fully fleshed out per day. The only way to know the full implications of changes is to have all the rules in your hand, so that means no teasers at all, and thats very boring and spoils it for the many of us who can read the articles and enjoy what they give. Not by me. My point wasn't to frame another positive vs negative debate, because frankly that's been done to death. I'm suggesting ways to try and mitigate the polarising attitudes, to stop this rift every time a new GHB or edition is released. I do disagree with the 'well people will just moan about something else' point. It's a bit of a cop out. All I'm suggesting is a more open approach, with a heavier focus on the journey to this decision/change. uncertainty breeds fear, which breeds distrust and contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Thebiggesthat said: My point wasn't to frame another positive vs negative debate, because frankly that's been done to death. I'm suggesting ways to try and mitigate the polarising attitudes, to stop this rift every time a new GHB or edition is released. Will never ever happen. Mainly as some people like change in their hobby and other hate it. I think it's because some people like to make plans and plan out what they are doing for the year and others (like myself) are just excited about all the new cool stuff and struggle sticking to one thing. Even if GW did a big drop of information covering the exact changes, you will still get people getting upset. Stuff like this is always best riding the wave and getting some games in. Personally, I'm very excited about all the changes and can't wait to see how my Seraphon and Ogors fit in, but I'm fully expecting to get new models or to change things. But to me that is part of the hobby as I get to enjoy painting up new things. My only issue is that I have just moved house and have a massive pile of Space Marines on my hobby desk, so I'm really torn between painting those up or selling them and getting some AOS stuff. Realistically, I'll probably end up painting them and buying the new AOS stuff! On a curious level, how would you prefer GW to do this on the run up to the new release if you were managing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thebiggesthat Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said: Will never ever happen. Mainly as some people like change in their hobby and other hate it. I think it's because some people like to make plans and plan out what they are doing for the year and others (like myself) are just excited about all the new cool stuff and struggle sticking to one thing. Even if GW did a big drop of information covering the exact changes, you will still get people getting upset. Stuff like this is always best riding the wave and getting some games in. Personally, I'm very excited about all the changes and can't wait to see how my Seraphon and Ogors fit in, but I'm fully expecting to get new models or to change things. But to me that is part of the hobby as I get to enjoy painting up new things. My only issue is that I have just moved house and have a massive pile of Space Marines on my hobby desk, so I'm really torn between painting those up or selling them and getting some AOS stuff. Realistically, I'll probably end up painting them and buying the new AOS stuff! On a curious level, how would you prefer GW to do this on the run up to the new release if you were managing it? Firstly, I'd like a central place to find out about the release. Not Facebook, Twitter (from personal accounts) , faction whatsapp groups, and the community site. Secondly, just let us know the release date straight up. If it's a month away, that's cool. Those that like to plan will do just that. Third. Talk about the play-testing more. If it's something new, chat about how you came about the changes. We are all hobbyists and love that stuff. Don't be afraid to talk about what is wrong with the old, and why it's influenced the new. Get people not wearing a GW shirt on front and centre. Finally, if you are going to make massive changes to the game, really focus on it during the build up. Some people don't like change, so reassurance is key. Focus on the balance always, not just 'HERE IS NEW STUFF'. Tell us how it fits, not how this edition is all about the change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I’d like to know WHEN it actually comes out haha, give me a date pleaseeee i love found the rules teasers to be good fun, and slowly filling in the puzzle of the new edition has been a blast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lardidar Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I'm really enjoying the teasing nature of the information released and I'm hoping for something big for beastclaw as they have been left till last and are arguably in need of assistance (I don't play them but appreciate a good low model count army) I do agree however....give us a release date, that's just me being impatient but I have a tournament mid-July and I'd love a few weeks to digest the rules and panic buy to make up points. I have tried to stay out of the summoning stuff but I'm quite excited by it, every faction that has access to it has been given a great tool to use in the game. I'm not currently building anything that will benefit but I'm looking forward to the challenge and excitement of the games. I like to compete, I like to win but mostly I like to have fun in this hobby and I think there is a lot of fun to be had both competitively and narratively in the new ruleset. EDIT- Also today is a rule and a focus day..yay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharitt Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 3 hours ago, stratigo said: and you're putting out like, a dread saurian turn 2. I know you're using the dread saurian and a hyperbolic example, but I wonder how FW stuff will be handled, if at all, for summoning. With the summoning tables being in the books, and FW stuff not being in GW books as a general rule, I wonder if the few FW things that would "fit" with the summoning armies will have some kind of addendum tables, or if this will be another step towards leaving the FW stuff out in the cold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twitch of Izalith Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Thebiggesthat said: I have lost faith in the new edition already with how things have been released. Really? but you bought into first edition after how THAT was released? Don't feel like i'm attacking you personally but what value is there in judging a set of rules for a game on how they are marketed? I would only be interested in the quality of GW's marketing if I was buying marketing from them. Lots of players really enjoy the build up to a new release and it certainly creates conversation! Personally I'm not reading much of it. I would never start making plans for my armies until I had not only read through the new rules a few times but also played a few games with them so there is no way i'm going to get worked up on the basis of a few teasers.. Pretty sure it will be all good dude.. or at least mostly good like it is now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 I have a feeling BCR will be linked to the charging rules. The other armies that could also be thematically linked there (Khorne and Ironjawz) have already been done so I’d be confident BCR are gonna be soon. @bsharitt I was wondering this as well, regarding Nighthaunt and the mournghul. I hope they don’t have an added keyword or something to cut him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharitt Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, AthlorianStoners said: I have a feeling BCR will be linked to the charging rules. The other armies that could also be thematically linked there (Khorne and Ironjawz) have already been done so I’d be confident BCR are gonna be soon. @bsharitt I was wondering this as well, regarding Nighthaunt and the mournghul. I hope they don’t have an added keyword or something to cut him out. I'm not worried about the Mourngul, I'm fairly confident that the Nighthaunt faction will be back to working on keyword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AthlorianStoners Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Just now, bsharitt said: I'm not worried about the Mourngul, I'm fairly confident that the Nighthaunt faction will be back to working one keyword. That’s reassuring, I’m very close to buying one as I love the sculpt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ppetford Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 As a Sylvaneth player I’m super excited by the changes to the game 2nd edition will bring. I’m lucky to part of a fantastic gaming group in Dorset so can expect lots of games against a whole host of different armies. Will my army get better in the new edition? Who knows?! Will it be fun? You bet!! The one thing I’m looking forward to most of all is seeing those armies that have been on the shelf a little recently come back out. I know there are a few guys at the club who are thinking about going back to a previous army in the new the edition. I’m looking at you Ironjawz, Bloodbound and fellow Sylvaneth players ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanger Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 How many factions did not recieve a Faction Focus yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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