My First Adepticon, A Tournament Report

[SlaaneshCultist]

Hey guys! So had a chance to recover from Adepticon and decompress and wanted to share my experiences. 

First off big thank you to Alex for running the Championship. I had a great time, and will definitely be attempting to return next year.

I flew in on Wednesday, along with Ed Phillips, Michael Hengl, and Joseph Urban. We got to our hotel, got settled in, and headed to the venue. The registration line was a ridiculous mile long monstrosity (why isn't that all done digitally at this point? Adepticon should make an App. You check in on arrival, and it gives you your con passes on your phone, then those who registered to get stuff can go and pick it up. I'm sure there would be a few people needing to manually check in due to non-smart phones, but it would drastically increase the efficiency) so we skipped it and instead went to the GW Reveal. That's been covered in depth elsewhere, but I was blown away by the stuff they have coming up for AoS. By the time that was done the registration line had dwindled to a fraction of the size. Hopped in line, grabbed our badges, and proceeded to the bar, where beers and shots of Jameson flowed like... beers and shots of Jameson.

Thursday, Fletcher Brown arrived and we made a trip to the liquor store. That evening we sat by the fire pit in the venue, drinking through half a handle of Jameson (there is a theme to the weekend!) and a ton of beers, while chatting with various gamers we've all known from over the years. I remember most of the evening, and remember being back at our hotel, but have zero memory of the walk from the Renaissance to our hotel. I'm just glad I didn't fall into the duck lake and freeze to death.

Next day we all groggily got out of bed and made our way to the hall for the team tournament. Joseph and myself went 2-1 with our Khorne/Sylvaneth alliance, losing to 2 time LVO champion Andrew Standiferd's Stormcast.  We finished 20th out of 121 teams. Not bad considering we put almost no thought into our lists and played 0 practice games.

After the award ceremony, we had dinner and a few drinks, then decided to take it easy and head back to our hotel. 

Now comes the championship tournament. 

My list: 

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Lord Of Khorne On Juggernaut (140)
- General
- Trait: Disciple of Khorne  
- Artefact: Gorecleaver  
Bloodsecrator (120)
- Artefact: The Blood-forged Armour  
Bloodstoker (80)
Slaughterpriest with Hackblade and Wrathhammer (100)
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune  
- Blood Blessing: Bronzed Flesh
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Blood Blessing: Killing Frenzy

Battleline
5 x Blood Warriors (100)
- Goreaxe & Gorefist
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (140)
- Bloodglaives
-  Khorne Bloodbound Battleline (Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut General)
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (140)
- Bloodglaives
-  Khorne Bloodbound Battleline (Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut General)
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (140)
- Bloodglaives
-  Khorne Bloodbound Battleline (Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut General)

Units
2 x Khorgoraths (160)
3 x Khorgoraths (240)

Battalions
Brass Stampede (180)
Gore Pilgrims (180)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141
 

I placed 10th on battle points at LVO with the same list, and won "Best Renaissance" (AKA Best Overall, battle and soft scores combined), so was feeling pretty confident going into A-Con. I know my list is not at the very top of the power curve, and it struggles with some opponents, but I know it really well, and assuming I'm not making TOO many mistakes (read as: I'm not too drunk/tired/hungover) it has a chance against most comers. 

My first game was against Paul Dworschack-Kinter and his Stardrake Stormcast. He was a great guy, and ended up getting my favorite opponent for the weekend, but super new to the game. I think he said it was his 8th game ever. I helped him out as much as I could, letting him know what his target priorities should be, reminding him to move units to claim objectives, and of course letting him go back when he forgot stuff, but in the end my Khorne was too much for his Stormcasts, and I got a major victory. By the end of the game I was several beers and several glasses of my good friend Jacob Berry's lovely Japanese whiskey in, and while I maxed out, I failed basic arithmetic and only gave myself a 17 rather than an 18. Oh well. That one point wouldn't have actually increased my ranking at all, it would have just reduced Thomas Lyons by one (we tied for 7th place). 

My second game was against Tim Horwath and his Kharadron Overlords. Tim had a giant boat as his display board, and some well painted tech duardin. He finished deployment first, but I was careful with my deployment and ensured that he wouldn't be able to get any first round shots. The first couple of turns were both of us playing very conservative, him killing a couple small units on the edges, neither of us taking the objectives. Then I rushed forward, took all three objectives, and slammed into his lines. Things went down hill for the KO from then on. The highlight was him flying his big boat out to take an objective... and me promptly blood binding it to take it OFF the objective. Max point major win for the Blades. Tim was a fantastic opponent, super laid back and easy going, and I had a wonderful time playing him.

My third game was against Ty Toepfur and his Legion of Nagash, lead by Arkhan the Black. Once again, good looking army (I'm going to stop saying this, the hobby standard at Adepticon was wonderful) made up of a 40 man Skeleton Unit, a 30 man Grave Guard unit, two 10 man skeletons, a unit of black knights, Arkhan, two necromancers, a mortis engine, and a Wight King, in the Deathmarch and Lords of Sacrament battalions. First turn he charged his black knights into a 2 man unit of Khorgoraths, underestimating them. The Khorgies wiped them out which, importantly, gave my brass stampede its +3 to runs and charges. I moved my line up, ready to hit his, and my general, whipped by the bloodstoker and with the Brass Stampede's bonus, got a 17inch charge, which let me go right past the skeletons and ht Arkhan the Black. If anyone saw my general put 11 wounds on glottkin in a single activation on the twitch, you can guess how well that went for for Arkhan. By the end of turn 2, Arkhan and the big unit of skeletons were dead, both necromancers were engaged with my general and below half wounds (I tried to kill them both and whiffed) the grave guard were well below half strength with limited ability to bring themselves back at that point, and most of my army was threatening his knife to the heart objectives. He conceded. Max point win for Khorne. Ty was another great opponent, and never got sour even as his lines collapsed.

After the third game we grabbed dinner at the bar, had the other half of the handle of Jameson, as well as all the beers we had, as well as a different bottle of whiskey, as well as some fruity nonsense alcoholic beverages. We're not proud. Or maybe we are. Varies by the day.

My fourth game was played on the twitch stream against Mathew Barker on Table 2 on the Twitch Stream. Poor Matthew was SUPER nervous about playing on the stream. I think it may have caused him to make a few mistakes, in addition to having shaking hands. Nonetheless, by the end of the game, with a major victory in my grasp and Nurgle on the run, Matthew made some very smart moves to keep me to a minor victory. He's a great guy, with a fun army. If anyone would like to see more about this game it's up on the Warhammer community Twitch.

Going into the 5th round I was 4-0 and 5 points below max, wondering what I would face. Would it be a Vanguard Wing, a Change Host, 17 Million fire slayers, Ryan Nicol's Murderhost? I've played against all those armies in the past, many times, and had a loose plan for each of them. While some were definitely more problematic than others, I felt fairly confident. Instead, I got... Daughters of Khaine. Well ******. This would be my first game against the Daughters, and while I intend them to be my next army, so know there rules pretty well, I hadn't put a ton of thought into how I would go about facing them. Greg's list was basically two 30 strong units of witches with bladed bucklers, one 15 or 20 strong unit of Blood Sisters, a cauldron of blood, a Bloodwrack (his general), 2 hags, and Morathi. The prayer that allows witches to do mortals on 5+ back, along with the bladed bucklers, is an awesome prayer against my army's even when I'm killing him I'm killing myself. By the end of the game he had his characters, the cauldron, and ~10 models left in one unit of witches left. I had my characters left, -the bloodsecrator. It was a complete blood bath (which I'm sure pleased both our gods) and he pulled out a minor win, as he wasn't quite able to take all four objectives. There are some definite things I would do differently in the future against DoK. Also, would've been nice to have some cover on the table behind which I could hide my Bloodsecrator. 

In the end I went 4-1, with 3 major victories, a minor victory, and a minor loss. I placed 7th overall (tied with Thomas Lyons, we literally had the exact same scores in every category) and got 2nd Best Appearance, which was awesome. It was a mostly smooth show, and a ton of fun to play in. I had a blast, and basically only have one nitpicky critique of the show.

Adepticon bills itself as a hobby event, and does so by indicating that 40% of your overall score comes from soft scores. I fully support this, as these are the types of events I would generally prefer to go to. That billing is a bit misleading, however. The paint score was checklist based, and 55 players (out of 165) got the max paint score. Basically a third of the field. The range for sports scores was, across the board, between 34 and 40. A 6 point variance. What that means is that, in practice, your overall placement is 99% battle points based. Nobody who placed above me had a lower battle point score than I did, and only two players who placed below me had a higher battle point score than I did. That is fine if that is your intent, but it is not what you've billed yourself to be.

That being said, I had a great time, and want to reiterate that I thought Alex did a good job organizing the event.

Thanks for reading!

[LLV]

Great report - thanks for sharing!

From watching the stream cover did seem a bit sparse.

[SlaaneshCultist]

Yeah, most tables had SOME cover, but not really enough. Part of the issue is a lot of the terrain is in the 8th edition style. Low hills, small buildings, etc.

[BURF1]

I actually hate the way their sportsmanship thing works, simply because it gives poor sports just ALL the power.

The way the team tournament worked(as far as I could tell) was that sports was worth 8 points per round. you got 1 point each for knowing your rules, being on time, and being prepared, then you got up to 5 points depending your opponents feeling on the game. Since the opponent scores all of these that means they control 7 points of your score(you always get at least 1), which is roughly 20 places on average. That means that someone who's salty over losing could tank you down from the thirties into the 50s or 60s.

Someone who's a good sport would likely give a subpar opponent a low, but fair sports score, probably 4-6 if they were on time and knew their rules. A poor sport gives a 2 so not only do they tank their opponent, they don't have to explain why. And yes, this exact thing did happen at least twice in the team tournament, and it's super obvious when it's intentional, simply due to how hard it should be to get less than a 4 sports score if your opponent is being fair.

[Sleboda]

I think it helps to understand the goals of the soft scores at Adepticon.

At first, I didn't get them and had issues with them as well (previous years). While I do still feel having sportsmanship scores in general is a failed idea, I see what they are doing.

 

Alex and the crew want an event where the reputation for beautiful armies and sporting players is so strong, that both become the assumption. 

To them, it's less about using the scores as separating factor in the standings, and more about creating a pleasant, high standard.

 

From that perspective, it's working.

For the record, I've been a friend of Alex's for many, many years. We don't always see eye to eye, and he doesn't share the intimate details of his plans (not would it be right of him to do so!).  That said, I trust the man implicitly to be putting the good of the hobby and the enjoyment of the players first.

@SlaaneshCultist Are Ed and Fletch on this forum? 

[SlaaneshCultist]

Nah. Fletch doesn't play games at all anymore really. And Ed does not participate in forums, misanthrope that he is.

[SlaaneshCultist]

On 3/27/2018 at 2:55 PM, Sleboda said:

From that perspective, it's working.

Somewhat working. After all, Joe Krier did win Best Chaos by putting a chicken on a balewind vortex. Not very sporting.

Mostly, I would have just liked to have known from the start that effectively 99% of your final standing would be based on pure battle points, rather than 50% 50% battle/soft scores I expected. I still had a great time, but I found myself somewhat caught off guard. Oh well, now I know.

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, SlaaneshCultist said:

Somewhat working. After all, Joe Krier did win Best Chaos by putting a chicken on a balewind vortex. Not very sporting.

This is a problem with subjective scores. I am in complete disagreement with what appears to be your definition of sporting.

To me, making sound choices in list design and on-table tactics has absolutely nothing to do with sportsmanship.

To you, making those beneficial choices is a mark of bad sportsmanship. Subjectivity blows.

 

In matched play, I'll never knock someone down for building a better list or making a better choice.

[Scythian]

On 3/27/2018 at 3:36 PM, BURF1 said:

I actually hate the way their sportsmanship thing works, simply because it gives poor sports just ALL the power.

The way the team tournament worked(as far as I could tell) was that sports was worth 8 points per round. you got 1 point each for knowing your rules, being on time, and being prepared, then you got up to 5 points depending your opponents feeling on the game. Since the opponent scores all of these that means they control 7 points of your score(you always get at least 1), which is roughly 20 places on average. That means that someone who's salty over losing could tank you down from the thirties into the 50s or 60s.

Someone who's a good sport would likely give a subpar opponent a low, but fair sports score, probably 4-6 if they were on time and knew their rules. A poor sport gives a 2 so not only do they tank their opponent, they don't have to explain why. And yes, this exact thing did happen at least twice in the team tournament, and it's super obvious when it's intentional, simply due to how hard it should be to get less than a 4 sports score if your opponent is being fair.

Come to Grognards on May 19th for the Armed Forces Day Age of Sigmar Tournament. 2k lists and no painting or sportsmanship scores involved in who wins. The guy who gets the most battlepoints will win. Painting and sportsmanship are separate awards. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

@SlaaneshCultist

Hey there! I’m Matthew the Nurgle player you played on the stream! Great game man! I loved your army and your a GREAT tactician! Hope you come out  to NOVA! I’ll be going as I live 15 mins away hahah!

I agree with everything you said about the scoring. My game three opponent was super pissed I was using the GW death guard dice. He only ever mentioned it right before he rage quit on turn 4. Also, after failing a few short charges and me having above average (not crazy but above average) save rolls he gave me a 2 on sports (I peeked,  fight me irl). I minor loss’d my last game to fyreslayers on game 5 so wasn’t near the top 10, but those points cost me a handful of spots. And while most armies were nice looking...high paint scores were simply pretty easy to achieve. It was really easy to take out frustrations with a petty passive aggressive low sports score for performing poorly. 

That’s why I asked you at the beginning of our game if you had an issue with that and we both decided mutually it would be best to use pipped dice..especially on a stream. I haven’t paid the subscription and gone back and watched it yet, but I will. Here is a link for all who are interested for convenience: https://m.twitch.tv/videos/242723909

Thanks again for a great game! I’ll be watching out for you in future events and won’t ever underestimate another khorgorath as long as I play AoS !!!

[SlaaneshCultist]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

@SlaaneshCultist

Hey there! I’m Matthew the Nurgle player you played on the stream! Great game man! I loved your army and your a GREAT tactician! Hope you come out  to NOVA! I’ll be going as I live 15 mins away hahah!

I agree with everything you said about the scoring. My game three opponent was super pissed I was using the GW death guard dice. He only ever mentioned it right before he rage quit on turn 4. Also, after failing a few short charges and me having above average (not crazy but above average) save rolls he gave me a 2 on sports (I peeked,  fight me irl). I minor loss’d my last game to fyreslayers on game 5 so wasn’t near the top 10, but those points cost me a handful of spots. And while most armies were nice looking...high paint scores were simply pretty easy to achieve. It was really easy to take out frustrations with a petty passive aggressive low sports score for performing poorly. 

That’s why I asked you at the beginning of our game if you had an issue with that and we both decided mutually it would be best to use pipped dice..especially on a stream. I haven’t paid the subscription and gone back and watched it yet, but I will. Here is a link for all who are interested for convenience: https://m.twitch.tv/videos/242723909

Thanks again for a great game! I’ll be watching out for you in future events and won’t ever underestimate another khorgorath as long as I play AoS !!!

Hey Mathew! I had a really great time playing you! I won't be going to NOVA, as I'm going to Nashcon in Nashville and that pretty much finishes up my funds for traveling tournaments this year, but our club has several guys heading out. Watch out for Tony Pacheco, Joseph Urban, Ed Phillips, and possibly Vlad Nica. All great guys.

I think I had a slight advantage on you due to having played on the twitch stream before, so I was calmer. That being said, I only really think you made one serious mistake, and that was not putting Inspiring Presence on either the Warriors or Marauders in the center of the board. I recently watched it and I also made a mistake in turn four. When I won the priority roll I should have let you go first. With my lord and two Juggernauts I probably would have wiped out the two remaining Blight Kings on the left side (my left) in your turn, allowing me to move all three units up to take the far left objective and burn it on the last turn, making it a major win. That probably would have matched me against the change host that won overall in the last round, and I think I could've taken him! But overall, super fun game.

Also, you get one twitch subscription for free with an Amazon Prime membership, so if you have that its worth doing.

 

20 hours ago, Sleboda said:

This is a problem with subjective scores. I am in complete disagreement with what appears to be your definition of sporting.

To me, making sound choices in list design and on-table tactics has absolutely nothing to do with sportsmanship.

To you, making those beneficial choices is a mark of bad sportsmanship. Subjectivity blows.

 

In matched play, I'll never knock someone down for building a better list or making a better choice.

The problem is GW released a FAQ to specifically stop Monsters from being on a Balewind Vortex. When they recently released a separate FAQ, addressing an unrelated issue, they unintentionally opened a loophole that a player like Joe could exploit to get around the clearly stated intent of the rules. I like Joe, he and I get along well, but that is not sporting play. It is exploitative and abusive, and if an opponent pulled something like that on me I would make it clear that he is not the type of opponent I would want, that that would be represented in his sports score, and that I would not be playing him again in the future. All politely and calmly (and possibly slightly drunkenly) of course.

[sal4m4nd3r]

40 minutes ago, SlaaneshCultist said:

Hey Mathew! I had a really great time playing you! I won't be going to NOVA, as I'm going to Nashcon in Nashville and that pretty much finishes up my funds for traveling tournaments this year, but our club has several guys heading out. Watch out for Tony Pacheco, Joseph Urban, Ed Phillips, and possibly Vlad Nica. All great guys.

I think I had a slight advantage on you due to having played on the twitch stream before, so I was calmer. That being said, I only really think you made one serious mistake, and that was not putting Inspiring Presence on either the Warriors or Marauders in the center of the board. I recently watched it and I also made a mistake in turn four. When I won the priority roll I should have let you go first. With my lord and two Juggernauts I probably would have wiped out the two remaining Blight Kings on the left side (my left) in your turn, allowing me to move all three units up to take the far left objective and burn it on the last turn, making it a major win. That probably would have matched me against the change host that won overall in the last round, and I think I could've taken him! But overall, super fun game.

Also, you get one twitch subscription for free with an Amazon Prime membership, so if you have that its worth doing.

 

 

I will certainly look out for those guys! What’s the name of your gaming group?

I was with my friend Garrett Mulroney that weekend, and he texted me asking how my game was going and simply sent back “getting rocked by bloodbound” he thought that was odd so came over to watch. He later told me it all made sense when he saw you were playing and was surprised I managed the force a minor ?

100%! Agree on both points there! I think losing the marauders (I think it was like 12 or 16 of them) to battleshock hurt so bad. I DEFINETLEY heard about that one from my buddies afterwards. I had about 3 or 4 messages that said “inspiring presence!!” Ahaha. I need to learn more about when and why to play priority better. I’m not sure I would have caught your “mistake” had I re-watched it if you didn’t that.. Miss playing priority was the reason I got the minor loss  in my next game.

So thanks for the tip on Amazon Prime/Twitch connection, but hope to see you at future events! 

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, SlaaneshCultist said:

The problem is GW released a FAQ to specifically stop Monsters from being on a Balewind Vortex

Ah. Well then that's just plain cheating and should result in a loss at a minimum.

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, Sleboda said:

Ah. Well then that's just plain cheating and should result in a loss at a minimum.

Here is the FAQ that was used as the source of the ridiculous interpretation.

Q: What happens when Morathi summons a Balewind Vortex 
and then turns into a Monster on top of it?
A: She remains atop it. If you are loath to leave such a 
delicate model in such a precarious position, she could 
banish the Balewind Vortex before the transformation 
takes place (as both happen at the start of your hero 
phase, and you can therefore choose the order in which 
they take place).

[Sleboda]

I can't see how a specific ruling for one model with a unique capability opens the door at all for a reversal of a prior general ruling.

The whole reason the question is asked is because the asker must be aware of the rule preventing her monster form being on the vortex (blue screen situation).

The answer above (thanks for providing the quote) is not enough to allow the LoC to be up there.

There is no loophole opened, no intent to be applied.

This is cheating, pure and simple.

[svnvaldez]

58 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I can't see how a specific ruling for one model with a unique capability opens the door at all for a reversal of a prior general ruling.

The whole reason the question is asked is because the asker must be aware of the rule preventing her monster form being on the vortex (blue screen situation).

The answer above (thanks for providing the quote) is not enough to allow the LoC to be up there.

There is no loophole opened, no intent to be applied.

This is cheating, pure and simple.

You guys are missing the point, and please inform yourselves before making character judgments of players. The question is whether or not the Changehost swap is a "move" or a "set up". A set up can go on the balewind regardless of keyword monster however a monster can not move on to it. Changehost makes reference to both set up and move. It is poorly written, as is, you can set up as many Seraphon mages on the thing as long as they fit. It requires a better FAQ or TO ruling. There were failures and miscommunications on how to deal with the issue at Acon. Both players failed to ask for a proper ruling and the TO did not make one in the rules pack or during the event.

Page 99 – Changehost, Deceive and Dismay
Change the rules text to:
‘At the start of each of your hero phases, you may pick
a pair of units from this battalion that are within 27”
of the battalion’s Lord of Change to swap places. To do
so, take one model from each unit, and have them swap
places on the battlefield. Then, remove all of the other
models from the two units, and set them back up within
9” of the model from their unit that first swapped places.
If a Changehost has 9 or more units at the start of your
hero phase, you can pick two different pairs of units to
swap places rather than only one. If the Changehost has
18 or more units, then you can pick three different pairs
of units to swap places. Each unit can only move this way
once in a hero phase.’

Q: What is ‘set-up’, exactly?
A: ‘Set-up’ refers to anything that allows you to place
a unit that is not currently on the battlefield on the
battlefield, or to change the location of a unit on the
battlefield without having to make a move. Typically this
is when a unit is placed on the table during deployment,
but can also refer to a unit being deployed in a location
other than on the battlefield, or being put into play
once the game has started, or when a unit is relocated
from one location on the battlefield to a different
location. Models can set up within 3” of the enemy,
even if they are set up in the movement phase, unless
noted otherwise.

 

Balewind Vortex warscroll
Add the following paragraph to the Hints &
Tips section:
‘Note that a Monster may not be moved onto a Balewind
Vortex for any reason.’

[sal4m4nd3r]

@svnvaldez

Balewind Vortex warscroll
Add the following paragraph to the Hints &
Tips section:
‘Note that a Monster may not be moved onto a Balewind
Vortex for any reason.’

 

Yeah...that “for any reason” should shut that down. You can never have a monster on a bwv. I like Krier... but it is blantanly taking advantage of people not wanting to question rules at a tournament setting for fear of low sports score or just to avoid a social confrontation 

[svnvaldez]

42 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

“for any reason” should shut that down

Your making up rules and I'd like you to refrain from assumptions. Read the words.

Q: What is ‘set-up’, exactly?

A: ‘Set-up’ refers to anything that allows you to place a unit that is not currently on the battlefield on the battlefield, or to change the location of a unit on the battlefield without having to make a move.

A "set up" is not a "move". the  faq addresses moves. It is why Vwing could previously teleport into combat. It is ambiguous whether a swap is a "move" or a "set up" and it needs a ruling. 

42 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

You can never have a monster on a bwv. 

This is not in the rules, and contradicted by Morathi.

42 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Yeah...that “for any reason” should shut that down. You can never have a monster on a bwv. I like Krier... but it is blantanly taking advantage of people not wanting to question rules at a tournament setting for fear of low sports score or just to avoid a social confrontation 

I do not see it this way at all and it is both players and a TOs responsibility to address ambiguities in the rules and come up with a sensible solution. This did not happen at Acon, a TO should have made a ruling either pre or during the event.

[svnvaldez]

If  there is a fear asking for clarity on a rule leads to a poor sports score, then the event should really look at that aspect of the scoring. 

[AthlorianStoners]

Seems more like finding an unfair loophole than it does anything else.  In context of a sporting score I personally wouldn’t consider it very sporting, regardless of the rules interpretations. It’s pretty clear the intent for a bale wind vortex is to not have monsters on top of it. 

[Richelieu]

Did anyone at LVO put a chicken on a balewind?  Has anyone at any major tournament since that FAQ?  Also, "Be moved" is not the same thing as taking a move action.  "Be moved" is the common usage of move, not the specific usage of a "Move action."

Making a play that was universally understood to have been outlawed based on an FAQ because the wording is not perfectly precise is unsporting.  I do think the FAQ should be clearer and I am a rules stickler, but the point of rules are to instruct players how to play a game and the intent of that FAQ is obvious as evinced by 99.999% of players playing it as monsters can't be put on balewinds. 

This is why sportsmanship scores are a bad idea in my opinion.  Regardless of how sporting it is to make a questionable rules interpretation to your benefit, it is a player's right to do so and his opponent should have called a TO over.  

[svnvaldez]

12 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Making a play that was universally understood to have been outlawed based on an FAQ because the wording is not perfectly precise is unsporting.  I do think the FAQ should be clearer and I am a rules stickler, but the point of rules are to instruct players how to play a game and the intent of that FAQ is obvious as evinced by 99.999% of players playing it as monsters can't be put on balewinds. 

This is why sportsmanship scores are a bad idea in my opinion.  Regardless of how sporting it is to make a questionable rules interpretation to your benefit, it is a player's right to do so and his opponent should have called a TO over.  

Completely agreed.

[Burf]

3 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

You guys are missing the point, and please inform yourselves before making character judgments of players. The question is whether or not the Changehost swap is a "move" or a "set up". A set up can go on the balewind regardless of keyword monster however a monster can not move on to it. Changehost makes reference to both set up and move. It is poorly written, as is, you can set up as many Seraphon mages on the thing as long as they fit. It requires a better FAQ or TO ruling. There were failures and miscommunications on how to deal with the issue at Acon. Both players failed to ask for a proper ruling and the TO did not make one in the rules pack or during the event.

Page 99 – Changehost, Deceive and Dismay
Change the rules text to:
‘At the start of each of your hero phases, you may pick
a pair of units from this battalion that are within 27”
of the battalion’s Lord of Change to swap places. To do
so, take one model from each unit, and have them swap
places on the battlefield. Then, remove all of the other
models from the two units, and set them back up within
9” of the model from their unit that first swapped places.
If a Changehost has 9 or more units at the start of your
hero phase, you can pick two different pairs of units to
swap places rather than only one. If the Changehost has
18 or more units, then you can pick three different pairs
of units to swap places. Each unit can only move this way
once in a hero phase.’

Q: What is ‘set-up’, exactly?
A: ‘Set-up’ refers to anything that allows you to place
a unit that is not currently on the battlefield on the
battlefield, or to change the location of a unit on the
battlefield without having to make a move. Typically this
is when a unit is placed on the table during deployment,
but can also refer to a unit being deployed in a location
other than on the battlefield, or being put into play
once the game has started, or when a unit is relocated
from one location on the battlefield to a different
location. Models can set up within 3” of the enemy,
even if they are set up in the movement phase, unless
noted otherwise.

 

Balewind Vortex warscroll
Add the following paragraph to the Hints &
Tips section:
‘Note that a Monster may not be moved onto a Balewind
Vortex for any reason.’

See this is an especially ridiculous explotation of GW's incredible inability to use consistent terminology.

Tell me friend, when do you EVER move ANYTHING on top of a balewind? Wait, don't answer, because it's never. Getting onto a balewind is NEVER a 'move'. You can't move anything onto a balewind ever anyway, so your interpretation uses the game term 'move' in place of the FAQ writers general use term 'moving' to exploit an obvious loophole that comes from players being more skilled at misinterpreting the rules than GW are at writing them.

You can't even argue that 'oh RAI is subjective!' Because RAI is the only interpretation where the FAQ ruling ACTUALLY DOES ANYTHING! If you go by your interpretation than you can put any behemouth that can teleport onto it there because THOSE ARE SET UPS TOO. The only possible purpose for that FAQ existing is to stop this exact bullgak. 

But people take advantage of underinformed tournament staff and permissive opponents to get away with something that is clearly exploitative.

So, if you would like to put your LoC on a balewind, you better be letting every other behemouth in the game do it too. 

Every chaos player who tries to pull this ****** should be insta-banned.

 

Bloodwrack shrine's not monster so it can go up on one. He's not barred from casting the spell and it's not a move.

Thanquol's not a monsters so he can.

Screaming Bell's not a monster so it can.

Coven throne and palanquin aren't monsters so they can.

Ohhh, this one is fun, Celestial Hurricanum can go up on a balewind now!

 

[Burf]

I really should go through every warscroll and count up how many behemouths can go up on balewinds now thanks to creative wordsmither-y.

We're at 7 so far and that's just the LoC and Behomoths that can still cast the spell. The armies that have teleports is where it gets REAL fun. 

Luminark of Hyish makes 8 btw.

[Lousy Beatnik]

What a joke. I think it's clear that GW didn't want big dudes on the vortex, but really should have phrased it clearly.