Why Kharadron Overlords never win any major tournament?

[Twitch of Izalith]

I think that the number of people running KO lists is probably a significant factor. If more people were running the army they may have won a major GT by now. Also the Clown Car build is quite swingy. Bad dice on your alpha strike turn can really punish you.

I don't think Tzeentch is really the most powerful army - its just easy mode. They are always contenders but don't seem to be winning much in the UK lately at least. I think they are a good choice in ITC format as you should manage to do consistently well with them.

Same with Fyreslayers - The vulkite horde build is so forgiving with all its layers of saving throws that you can make some fairly big errors and get away with it. Also the movement shenanigans and the Runes and so on are quite powerful but again - easy to use.

Its a shame with both KO and Fyreslayers, that the most competitive builds are the least fun to play or play against. I doubt they are particularly inspiring from a hobby perspective either. From a more casual/narrative point of view there are lots of options for some really cool looking armies full of magmadroths and skyships (Endrins?).

I guess it depends where your focus is. If its winning major tournaments then I think KO are not the obvious choice and there will be other armies you can expect to do better with. 

 

[BURF1]

On 3/6/2018 at 4:50 AM, Jamie the Jasper said:

This answer probably won't be particularly helpful, but from what I understand the top tournament players for the most part are only interested in armies that have a significant advantage that can be exploited. That's how they get to be the top tournament players. Yes, they need to be excellent players too - people who know the game and their army inside out and practice relentlessly - but most players at a tournament will have these things covered, so for the edge they need to be the best of the best they have to take a list with an imbalance of advantages that can be exploited.

You ask, 'why not Kharadron Overlords?' but you could ask the same question of most of the 60 factions currently in the game. Only a handful of these are ever seen on the top tables. In many cases that's because these factions aren't very good, but many of them are well designed, balanced factions with a very good chance of winning any game they're used in. But a 'very good chance' isn't enough to win tournaments. We could have 59 brilliantly designed and perfectly balanced factions, but if you have 1 that has an unbalanced advantage that can be exploited, this is the faction that top tournament players will be drawn to, and this is the faction that you'll see dominating the top of the results tables.

So to me, it seems pointless to try to understand why Kharadron Overlords aren't winning tournaments by studying Kharadron Overlords, because the reasons don't lie within that faction itself. The reasons lie within the mechanics and advantages of Tzeentch, Nurgle, et al. All other factions are pushed out by the factions that - whether through bad design or power creep - can be exploited by an elite minority of very talented players. Not just Kharadron Overlords.

To put it glibly - Kharadron Overlords don't win tournaments because they're a well written, well designed, well balanced faction. Tournaments will always be won by factions that are unbalanced in that faction's favour, because that's what top tournament players need from their armies. That's exactly what the 'meta' is - people moving from one overpowered faction to another as new factions are released and older factions get FAQ'd. Asking why any particular faction gets left behind is an exercise in futility. There's nothing you can do to change it. You might as well try to change the weather.

KO are in no way well written OR well designed. 99% of the book is unusably terrible, and I'm not talking 'doesn't win tournaments' bad, i'm talking 'I need a 500pt handicap to beat my friends 8th ed high elf army' bad. The boats are 100pts overpriced on average, thunderers don't even make sense anymore, the balloon guys are good but if you're not deep-striking them, you're losing them, most of the characters are pointless due to how bad the boats are. The books was a dud with 2 power builds that got nerfed down into a one-trick 'brake-check' list that basically just served to take skryre fyer's place in the meta.

[Gecktron]

54 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

KO are in no way well written OR well designed. 99% of the book is unusably terrible, and I'm not talking 'doesn't win tournaments' bad, i'm talking 'I need a 500pt handicap to beat my friends 8th ed high elf army' bad. The boats are 100pts overpriced on average, thunderers don't even make sense anymore, the balloon guys are good but if you're not deep-striking them, you're losing them, most of the characters are pointless due to how bad the boats are. The books was a dud with 2 power builds that got nerfed down into a one-trick 'brake-check' list that basically just served to take skryre fyer's place in the meta.

Now thats a useless hyperbole. 
I have no problem using most Kharadron units in normal games at my local gaming group. Every infantry unit has its use (Thunderers are still a good unit even without spaming aether-canons), most heroes have their niche (excluding Navigators, the banning artifact makes the unit redundant) and the Ironclad is a great unit and Frigats would be great with a point reduction. Only the Gunhauler is way too expensive in its current state, sadly. 

One can definitely argue that they are limited when playing competitive. But the Kharadrons are nowhere near terrible especially when playing friendly games.

[generalchaos34]

4 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Now thats a useless hyperbole. 
I have no problem using most Kharadron units in normal games at my local gaming group. Every infantry unit has its use (Thunderers are still a good unit even without spaming aether-canons), most heroes have their niche (excluding Navigators, the banning artifact makes the unit redundant) and the Ironclad is a great unit and Frigats would be great with a point reduction. Only the Gunhauler is way too expensive in its current state, sadly. 

One can definitely argue that they are limited when playing competitive. But the Kharadrons are nowhere near terrible especially when playing friendly games.

I think they still need a lot of adjustment down the road.  Hell, you have a fantastic special character in Brokk and he is fairly underwhelming (and far too expensive). Thunderers could be a really cool unit with their cavalcade of linked shots except the range, and I actually think the if X hits, then Y, mechanic is not terrible because if you get them all going that unit will be quite devastated  (and maybe if they were cheaper or shot better? Im not sure on how to help them). Plus you have a few characters that just need more fleshing out, like Navigators and Endrinmasters who I think need a few less restrictions (i.e. when will you realistically have your ships run or charge to make a whole character devoted to it? I would imagine it would be better served with a  additional +movement ability, or a more reliable healing for the endrinmaster, i.e. 3 or d3+1). Granted im still very new to this army but these are some of my outsider views. Also more command abilities would be nice!

[Aezeal]

1 hour ago, BURF1 said:

KO are in no way well written OR well designed. 99% of the book is unusably terrible, and I'm not talking 'doesn't win tournaments' bad, i'm talking 'I need a 500pt handicap to beat my friends 8th ed high elf army' bad. The boats are 100pts overpriced on average, thunderers don't even make sense anymore, the balloon guys are good but if you're not deep-striking them, you're losing them, most of the characters are pointless due to how bad the boats are. The books was a dud with 2 power builds that got nerfed down into a one-trick 'brake-check' list that basically just served to take skryre fyer's place in the meta.

The big ships are only too expensive if you use them as regular monsters. Don't do that, read their rules and use them all.

[generalchaos34]

3 hours ago, Aezeal said:

The big ships are only too expensive if you use them as regular monsters. Don't do that, read their rules and use them all.

How would you best play this? Im not being sarcastic, im still new! I imagine the only way to make the most of your short range weapons is to get in close then disgorge your companies for a screen, then fire and fade from there.  I wish there was an alternative to companies for battleline, maybe a grundstock marine that was more CC based, with aethermatic chainsaws!?

[Badlander86]

I think as a person who just started his KO collection on a whim (an expensive whim at that), I can't really relate to how some people might perceive KO as a weaker playable faction on the tabletop. My original background was from Warmachine/Hordes who were made up of many disenfranchised 40K players whom insisted that GW had ruined their notion of a great game (i.e., all the armies they played being tournament staples being nerfed or diminished in newer editions) and they transitioned over to WMH...where they played the tournament favorite armies and list.  I got into tabletop gaming through Warmachine and Hordes but I have  to say, playing the games were the worst part of the hobby, not because I was getting thumped regularly (it certainly added salt to the wounds) but because I was being lectured by others on what I should be playing, on the time and money I spent on the choice of my models were ****** and I should just buy into spamlists to be competitive. And the worst part was I was doing this against guys with unpainted, half-assembled armies or "power proxies" just to test them out. It left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and I distanced myself from tabletop for about a year. And now with the new edition of WMH causing some upheavals in what was good previously, those players have left again and are dabbling back into 40K and the WMH community here has kind of dried up leaving my Khador models to gather dust.

And I think this is universal throughout any game system with a competitive scene. Competitive Magic the Gathering has decklists that usually similar in higher level tournaments with the only difference being whether the deck being played was "the question" (i.e. the best deck least affected by the natural variance of the game) or whether the other decks were "the answers" (decks designed to deal with the best deck in the meta).

Once someone "breaks" a game or an aspect of the game, most players gravitate to what works. In this hobby,  I was drawn to the aesthetic of KO with little regard as to the tabletop performance of the army itself. But if you are starting an army to rack up wins, you may consider waiting for the faction to get a little more fleshed out. KO is little under a year old at this point and some people might equate "new" to being "really above current curve". Daughters of Khaine might also be under similar scrutiny when they eventually come out.

My 2-cents if it matters is this: assess what you got into the hobby for (the modeling, painting and playing), see what is most important to you and focus your time and money on that aspect of the hobby as a whole. 

[GammaMage]

21 hours ago, ledha said:

The term "clown car" is a reference to the old gag of ton of clown disembarking from a very little car that can't transport so many people. Here it's a same. A single ship where a whole army disembark from.

I get where the name comes from...but it's still a stupid name that pokes fun at Kharadron players. I'm gonna try avoid it and call it 'Zilfin Deep Strike' or something like that.

[Amradiel]

When KO was first released I was overwhelmed by the pure awesomeness. The design was so cool and exactly what I had dreamt of for years. I bought everything! Expensive as hell. I did not get to the point where I started to play, because I fell out of love with AoS and when the KO sucks posts started to rain I just sold them off. Something I still regret. Because they are still my favourite army if you just talk about the look of the army.

[wanderingrogue]

2 hours ago, GammaMage said:

I get where the name comes from...but it's still a stupid name that pokes fun at Kharadron players. I'm gonna try avoid it and call it 'Zilfin Deep Strike' or something like that.

how the hell does it poke full? i made the list...and thats what i called it! hahah

[wanderingrogue]

also the list doesnt deep strike ...like almost ever.... ive done that once in 4 tournies.

 

just an fyi

[Kevin K]

7 hours ago, GammaMage said:

I get where the name comes from...but it's still a stupid name that pokes fun at Kharadron players. I'm gonna try avoid it and call it 'Zilfin Deep Strike' or something like that.

I like the name I first heard from Tom Lyons on Warhammer Weekly - "Party Boat".  I've been trying to spread that.  

I think KO are perfectly "good", but the design in the book was a major miss.  The ships were a big draw for me and the book seems to imply that they are important.  The whole "strategy" section of the book describes different deployments of multiple ships.  I love the aesthetic of capitalistic viking/pirates.  Then they created rules where the ships primary purpose is a deployment hack.  Bummer.  The other really cool thing is the design your own Barak, but they missed again.  I think its cool to have the "known Baraks" and have them get a little extra rule for flavor.  Unfortunately, they made all of the best rules only in those Baraks.

Don't get me wrong, I think KO are just as competitive as any other army if that is your thing, and just like every other competitive army, you pick the best stuff and maximize it.  I am not particularly competitive and my local group is medium competitive.  I don't play full party boat, but I do have party boat aspects and I win enough and games are close enough that we all have fun.  I really like KO, it just could have been so much better (read - more interesting, not more competitive).  I give the model designers an A+ and the book designers a C-.  Most of my issues would be hard to fix at this point.  I'm hoping for a drop in ship cost so I can take more of them without feeling like I'm making a completely gimped army.

[BunkhouseBuster]

13 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

I think as a person who just started his KO collection on a whim (an expensive whim at that), I can't really relate to how some people might perceive KO as a weaker playable faction on the tabletop. My original background was from Warmachine/Hordes who were made up of many disenfranchised 40K players whom insisted that GW had ruined their notion of a great game (i.e., all the armies they played being tournament staples being nerfed or diminished in newer editions) and they transitioned over to WMH...where they played the tournament favorite armies and list.  I got into tabletop gaming through Warmachine and Hordes but I have  to say, playing the games were the worst part of the hobby, not because I was getting thumped regularly (it certainly added salt to the wounds) but because I was being lectured by others on what I should be playing, on the time and money I spent on the choice of my models were ****** and I should just buy into spamlists to be competitive. And the worst part was I was doing this against guys with unpainted, half-assembled armies or "power proxies" just to test them out. It left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and I distanced myself from tabletop for about a year. And now with the new edition of WMH causing some upheavals in what was good previously, those players have left again and are dabbling back into 40K and the WMH community here has kind of dried up leaving my Khador models to gather dust.

Might I ask what part of the world you are from?  That story is identical to my experiences with Warmachine/Hordes!  Except I don't know what has happened to the local Warmachine/Hordes players in my area, as I cut off ties from them due to drama and issues between the two local shops and how they handle GW products and fans.

13 hours ago, Badlander86 said:

My 2-cents if it matters is this: assess what you got into the hobby for (the modeling, painting and playing), see what is most important to you and focus your time and money on that aspect of the hobby as a whole. 

Yes to this!  I've been trying to encourage people to find what they like and enjoy it.  I am by no means a competitive player, but I can appreciate that other people like different parts of the hobby.  Go and have fun trying to win the tournaments, I'll be staying home and painting up some scenery.  But if one of those competitive players tries to tell me that I'm playing my army wrong and I am not doing things correctly, then I will cut off all ties with you - there is no "one right way" to do things, especially in such an open-ended hobby as miniature wargaming.

[Rhellion]

On 3/7/2018 at 8:33 AM, ledha said:

Squig won Heat 3 in July 2017, before the ghb2018.

There is so many differences between july 2017 and today that it's nearly not even the same game (new scenario, point cost, allegiance ability for everyone, etc).

The point is it was a complete anomaly in the meta of the time.

[Badlander86]

On 3/8/2018 at 10:15 PM, BunkhouseBuster said:

Might I ask what part of the world you are from?  That story is identical to my experiences with Warmachine/Hordes!  Except I don't know what has happened to the local Warmachine/Hordes players in my area, as I cut off ties from them due to drama and issues between the two local shops and how they handle GW products and fans.

Yes to this!  I've been trying to encourage people to find what they like and enjoy it.  I am by no means a competitive player, but I can appreciate that other people like different parts of the hobby.  Go and have fun trying to win the tournaments, I'll be staying home and painting up some scenery.  But if one of those competitive players tries to tell me that I'm playing my army wrong and I am not doing things correctly, then I will cut off all ties with you - there is no "one right way" to do things, especially in such an open-ended hobby as miniature wargaming.

 

A small nation in South East Asia. All I am going to say at the moment.

 

I should add, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play "optimal" lists but I've always been a proponent of reading the social contract in the playgroup or table first.

[Xiremo25]

On 3/11/2018 at 9:12 AM, Badlander86 said:

 

A small nation in South East Asia. All I am going to say at the moment.

 

I should add, there is nothing wrong with wanting to play "optimal" lists but I've always been a proponent of reading the social contract in the playgroup or table first.

Hmm can i guess the country? Hehe city starts with the letter m ,n ,and l?

Anyways, what you said is true.  pick a faction which is more to what you love the most about it..be it aesthetics, gameplay or what not..itll be a waste of time and money if ya focused too much on the competitive side of things in any game because not all systems are balanced..someone will find something broken in the rules and exploit it ..so instead of wondering about why KO is not competitive, enjoy the faction for what it is.. And better wait for the big updates on them and hope that they will improve..in my opinion KO does need a bit of improvement..from the prices of the boats and a few rules but nothing game breaking..just more variety in list building..or using the other skyports..I am still really new to the AoS and the KO but after playing some games with them..they aint halfbad at all as most of my games were clinchers..i mean i get to fend off an all cavalry STC chaos knights and reduced them to 3 models despite being outnumbered ( gotta love that urbaz amendment  ) but i still lost in a satisfying way though but none the less amazing unit performance..

[Zetsu20]

On Sat.17 March there will be a AOS Malign Portents tournament 1,000 pts. at Legendary Wargame(Thailand).

and i enter the tournament with my Barak-Urbaz army. So i'll report a result again soon.:))

[Kaleun]

5 hours ago, Zetsu20 said:

On Sat.17 March there will be a AOS Malign Portents tournament 1,000 pts. at Legendary Wargame(Thailand).

and i enter the tournament with my Barak-Urbaz army. So i'll report a result again soon.:))

Very nice!! Good luck and we look forward to your reports!

[Zetsu20]

13 hours ago, Kaleun said:

Very nice!! Good luck and we look forward to your reports!

Thank you

[Zetsu20]

On 3/12/2018 at 9:52 PM, Kaleun said:

Very nice!! Good luck and we look forward to your reports!

Hi

I lost to Stormcast eternal with point after turn5 ended.

Tournament organiser was told to every player that they can change all commmand trait , Artifact , battletrait when the pairing was finished.

my opponent was Stormcast lol.he change artifact to use mirrorshield with me. 

Turn1 i play first and i shoot down 9/10 judicator but after stormcast turn his 5xRetributer warp to 9inch close to my skywarden and then roll a Charge dice success with 11.

so he kill my 4x skywarden and then i lost a roll to take a second turn and then lost a roll to take a third turn but still can't wipe me out but he can take a objective point more than 

me. So when turn 5 end i lost with 12 pts. / 24 pts.