svnvaldez Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Kirjava13 said: Well gosh-golly, this all sounds very dramatic. Right? That's what happens when adults play toy games! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecfast Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Being a person who will never want to play at an event with loads of WAACs, and as I have yet to play in any larger tourneys, but do hope to in the future, I strongly support (1) lack of cash prizes and (2) benefits to fluffier lists. The people who simply game the system to win make the hobby miserable. We should work to limit their influence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhellion Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Lecfast said: Being a person who will never want to play at an event with loads of WAACs, and as I have yet to play in any larger tourneys, but do hope to in the future, I strongly support (1) lack of cash prizes and (2) benefits to fluffier lists. The people who simply game the system to win make the hobby miserable. We should work to limit their influence. On the other hand it IS a tournament. There are narrative events out there you can go to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Taylor Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Ypu definitely bring up some good points @Rhellion thanks for bringing in the perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikester1487 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Being from Colorado I'm not sure if my location is considered Midwest or West but the aos scene here is fairly sparse and I love going to Adepticon to see a variety of players and lists. Been driving out to Chicago for what will be 5 years this March because I really like the way Alex runs his tournaments. The LVO scene seems fun to go to, but just as a more relaxing and competitive option for myself I will continue to attend Adepticon. ITC I feel would limit the variety of what you see on the table because of the rewards mentioned previously in this thread. I don't mind the so called WAAC lists and the best builds because after all it is a tournament, but with ITC those cookie cutter lists could be all you see making the games rather dull. I think for now I'll sit in the no column for a country wide integration of the ITC and just go with the flow on whatever Adeptcion does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine7six Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 While I'm not in the states, I just wanted to add my 2cents regarding the ITC discussion here. I'm a TO from Toronto that runs 5/6 tournaments are year. I didn't play fantasy or 40k and only know Age of Sigmar which I picked up the roughly 3 months since it was released and have been playing since. When we started running tournaments and doing our research we had only just heard of the ITC mentioned on podcasts, I personally liked what they promoted about increasing attendance and having a way to track rankings so we as a group decided to adopt it and have been using ITC ever since. We have seen nothing but positivity in regards to it for our tournaments, we started off with 1k tournaments having 10 attendees to now having multiple doubles events each year and just had our highest number of participants at 18 people for a 2k painted event! I'm positive that being a way for people to get ITC points has helped this as we are having attendants drive over 2 hours to come. I'm always surprised when I hear about hate for the system because it's been nothing but good to us, however hearing the cash prize stuff etc has me a little on edge as I didn't know that was a requirement. The way we run the tournaments the first/second/third prizes are always gift cards, we run our tournaments out of local FLGS locations or gaming cafes and will give the money to the store so they can issue us a gift card only redeemable at their location, if the place doesn't have giftcards we get them direct from GW. We used cash prize on our very first tournament but were informed that it's technically gambling and illegal so we stopped, we also noticed that the cash prize brought out certain types of people to that tournament who have now disappeared (thank god). Unlike the 40k requirements and ITC terrain stuff I feel it's not as intrusive for AoS and has given us a system that our entrants enjoy. We eventually hope to take some of the top stops from the west coasters and has given us something as TO's to strive for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhellion Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Ryan Taylor said: Ypu definitely bring up some good points @Rhellion thanks for bringing in the perspective. Thank you for tagging me, I'm not around here too often any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trout Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 What is the 40K LVO debacle everyone is referencing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine7six Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 some dude named Tony purposely slow played his opponents, checking values etc he's already knows. time was running out and it was his opponents turn (turn 2) so Alex Fennell tries to speed things up, he mistakenly deeps strikes before moving which happens at the end of phase, tony helped him measure it all out and deploy it then immediatly tells Alex he skipped out on his movement phase by doing that and wouldn't let him go back. it attracted alot of attenion... the co founder of riot games donated at $5,000 sportsmanship award to Alex Fennell but he gave it to charity. Tony ended up going to the final round and something similar happened back to him which is Karma. His opponent said I don't normally do this but because you were a ****** to alex earlier i'm not gonna let you go back. I have no interest going to LVO anymore lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 3 hours ago, nine7six said: however hearing the cash prize stuff etc has me a little on edge as I didn't know that was a requirement. Let me clarify the cash prizes. There are no cash prizes for AOS. And no cash requiredment for stores. ITC 40k has been around for say 10 years. There are 6000ish registered players and LVO had 500ish 40k players. The best of those 6000 players after the year was over received 4000 dollars this year. This is Aos 1.5 year of ITC. Begain with the GH. We had 700ish reg players this year and 100 at LVO. FLG is a business... so is GW. If FLG thinks cash will help growth in AOS there will be cash prizes in the future. Not today however. I took a bent list to LVO, but with or without ITC I would have for the glory of winning. Unless the pack had comp or sports would I have changed my list. #40k drama this year is a dude in the running was called cheating in the semis. Had he won the final he would have got the cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drofnum Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 1 hour ago, nine7six said: some dude named Tony purposely slow played his opponents, checking values etc he's already knows. time was running out and it was his opponents turn (turn 2) so Alex Fennell tries to speed things up, he mistakenly deeps strikes before moving which happens at the end of phase, tony helped him measure it all out and deploy it then immediatly tells Alex he skipped out on his movement phase by doing that and wouldn't let him go back. it attracted alot of attenion... the co founder of riot games donated at $5,000 sportsmanship award to Alex Fennell but he gave it to charity. Tony ended up going to the final round and something similar happened back to him which is Karma. His opponent said I don't normally do this but because you were a ****** to alex earlier i'm not gonna let you go back. I have no interest going to LVO anymore lol I had a pretty bad/similar experience with an AoS player at the LVO as well, this was my first tournament so i assumed it was kind of the norm. It definitely soured my first day and has kind of pushed me off the game a little bit, hopefully playing with my friends back home will help bring the fun back in. I really hope this is outside the normal experience for AoS tournaments, it sounds like it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted January 31, 2018 Author Share Posted January 31, 2018 The drama in 40k is discussed on the last episode: Signals from the Frontline: Live Recap of the LVO starts at 1:00 pm PST. https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecfast Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 19 hours ago, Rhellion said: On the other hand it IS a tournament. There are narrative events out there you can go to. On the other hand, it is a game. Also, if the game only promotes gaming the game system you wont have the new player base entering the scene to build and grow the community. Lastly, I have yet to hear of any real narrative event for AOS or 40k anywhere near me (where as tourneys are semi-common, even if that is 2-2 1/2 hours away). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Cash prizes without the constant presence of judges is a bad idea no matter what, even games with precise rules have this problem because of the human factor (ill-intentioned or not). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 16 hours ago, nine7six said: some dude named Tony purposely slow played his opponents, checking values etc he's already knows. time was running out and it was his opponents turn (turn 2) so Alex Fennell tries to speed things up, he mistakenly deeps strikes before moving which happens at the end of phase, tony helped him measure it all out and deploy it then immediatly tells Alex he skipped out on his movement phase by doing that and wouldn't let him go back. it attracted alot of attenion... the co founder of riot games donated at $5,000 sportsmanship award to Alex Fennell but he gave it to charity. Tony ended up going to the final round and something similar happened back to him which is Karma. His opponent said I don't normally do this but because you were a ****** to alex earlier i'm not gonna let you go back. I have no interest going to LVO anymore lol Maybe it's naive of me but I can't imagine why anyone would want to play this way. My number one criteria for a game has always been that you should be able to walk away from the tables and have a laugh and a beer with the guy you played with regardless of how badly one of you got your ass handed to you. Who puts winning a game of toy soldiers above the respect of their peers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, AGPO said: Maybe it's naive of me but I can't imagine why anyone would want to play this way. My number one criteria for a game has always been that you should be able to walk away from the tables and have a laugh and a beer with the guy you played with regardless of how badly one of you got your ass handed to you. Who puts winning a game of toy soldiers above the respect of their peers? While money does enhance this, I am of the opinion that as long as there is some prize or glory to be won, there will be people who will play as cutthroat as possible. While we like to say that having fun is the most important thing you can do in a game, some people just like winning more and will follow the rules to the letter to achieve that. Some tournaments "support" that by basing your entire performance on Battle Points, which is why I like when events include Sportsmanship in the Overall score. But even then, people like that have always just been part of the Warhammer gaming side of things, it's just best not to encourage them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, AGPO said: Maybe it's naive of me but I can't imagine why anyone would want to play this way Simple. Money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGPO Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 How much money are we talking, because it would need to be a *lot* for me to consider alienating everyone involved in my main hobby on a national (in this case international) level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightFire Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, AGPO said: How much money are we talking, because it would need to be a *lot* for me to consider alienating everyone involved in my main hobby on a national (in this case international) level. Not that much, see the behaviour at the top tables at the LVO 40k finals for examples of a player alienating everyone and acting poorly towards his opponent in order to try and increase his chances of winning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, AGPO said: How much money are we talking, because it would need to be a *lot* for me to consider alienating everyone involved in my main hobby on a national (in this case international) level. Not that much considering the cost of the hobby and having to travel/stay at large events. It seems like a bit but you barely cover the cost it took to get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesT Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 @domus and company from the Midwest, sorry you've been dragged into another ITC post. At least it seems this thread is so far a good discussion and your points are being heard and understood. I haven't traveled out there for a tournament (Only tournament I travel to is LVO once a year, Broadside Bash and SoCal Open are close enough for me to not really have to "travel"), but it sounds like you guys have a riproarin' good scene goin' on. If you as the TO believe that ITC would harm your scene, then I completely understand you not introducing that format, though not using BCP still kind of confuses me but maybe when they introduce the ability to do soft scores you might come to the light side I can say it does make the TO's job way easier! Someone mentioned that BCP may eventually move to paid-only without the option for free. I've spoken to BCP guys a few times and know that their whole goal is just to have a simple piece of software that aids miniature gaming, and that they fully intend on keeping it free. I would be stunned if they ever went paid-only. My opinion of the ITC may be a biased. Full disclosure: I earned #1 for ITC this last season, and definitely appreciated it. So my thoughts on this subject are coming through that lens. -I've played at 6 or RTT's this past year, Broadside Bash, SoCal Open, and LVO. That adds up to quite a few games. I played the same army list since day 1 of GHB2017. I know that my army is very strong, and that some armies I play against don't stand much chance against it. With that in mind, I always try to be the best sportsman I can. I know there are people who win with a "Crush you and feel no sympathy" attitude that is really just horrible to lose to. I've had numerous discussions with opponents about my army and theirs following games, and they're always great talks. So yes, I play to win. But I can't stand the idea of lambasting a guy or ending a game with a guy hating my guts. I think there is a way to win in such a way where your opponent says "Well, I lost, but it was to a great guy so I had fun!". I had this attitude when I lost to the guy who won LVO. Would I have loved to win the LVO? Absolutely. He beat me fair and square, we laughed throughout the game, were cracking jokes, and enjoying each other's misfortune in the dice. Bear in mind: This is the guy who won LVO last year, versus the guy who was #1 in the ITC going into LVO and maintained that spot. Quite literally one of the highest levels of competition in a game, but we played like gentlemen. He misunderstood a field objective at the end of the game, and I let him change his last turn to try and accomplish it. We didn't have the Tony attitude. But I think the argument for the rankings system is that it can unify the area. And while it can bring out WAAC pariahs, more often than not it brings out good competition that helps the game grow while still welcoming new players. I often will talk with my opponent at the end of the game about how she/he could adjust their list or possible mistakes they made, and this helps them know they're improving in the game. Maybe @Countmore could provide some commentary on how the competitive scene behaves in the UK with their rankings system in mind. Some may see people traveling across the country for tournaments as a negative. I don't understand why, seems pretty awesome to me. That's coming from a guy who didn't travel last year except for LVO. Our RTT's over here do AMAZINGLY well. There is no concept of them being dried up in lieu of larger events. RTT's are 8-10man over here normally, and there are 2-3 that can break 20 people! That's insane for an RTT for us. And I don't quite understand the criticism that ITC makes their own terrain for 40k. It looks STUNNING, especially on their gaming mats, which are super easy to use and pack. The terrain is fair-priced and gives you a uniform look, and is fair for tournaments as well. It provides good LoS blocking while maintaining a narrative on the table. I really don't see that as a negative. GW terrain is OK, but tends to have basically the same features. ITC terrain looks better to me. I would be amazed if the performance on the top table at LVO didn't leave them wondering how they can prevent that from happening again. GW guys watching the game were stunned into silence that it happened, and I'm sure conversations were had to the effect of "We streamed this event and gave you guys publicity, and got this PR nightmare instead. Handle this". So let's see what FLG does to address it. Bare minimum, I'm ecstatic that Tony lost to Nick because Nick did the same thing and said "I hate to win this way, but you did the same thing to Alex". Tony lost to Nick in the ITC by a measly 1.18 points, but it was enough! Hope he never comes back. The competitive community is kind of shunning it right now. Fortunately, AoS doesn't seem to have those problems, and hopefully never has cash on the line. Well that post got long, sorry guys. I'd go longer but my Enter key isn't working for some reason so I'll cut it short Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domus Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 2 hours ago, AGPO said: How much money are we talking, because it would need to be a *lot* for me to consider alienating everyone involved in my main hobby on a national (in this case international) level. In 2016 the top 40k Player won $3,500 US. That would more than cover my costs for events for the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhellion Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Thanks for the insights James and congrats on number 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 6 minutes ago, domus said: In 2016 the top 40k Player won $3,500 US. That would more than cover my costs for events for the year. It depends imo. To get to that top 40k spot most of those people are flying 3-5 times and swapping armies quite often. Not everyone does that, but many do and if you're not consistently hitting top 3 you likely need to travel in order to get the points. Sigmar doesn't have as many big GTs, the meta doesn't hard shift as much, so it's not as drastic, but having seen the people who chase the 40k meta and top spots they spend way more than the top AoS people. (Which, incidentally, is why I prefer AoS more, since I feel the meta is more open and I don't need to chase it as hard, though being Stormcast helps). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svnvaldez Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 4 hours ago, JamesT said: @domus and company from the Midwest, sorry you've been dragged into another ITC post. At least it seems this thread is so far a good discussion and your points are being heard and understood. I haven't traveled out there for a tournament (Only tournament I travel to is LVO once a year, Broadside Bash and SoCal Open are close enough for me to not really have to "travel"), but it sounds like you guys have a riproarin' good scene goin' on. If you as the TO believe that ITC would harm your scene, then I completely understand you not introducing that format, though not using BCP still kind of confuses me but maybe when they introduce the ability to do soft scores you might come to the light side I can say it does make the TO's job way easier! Someone mentioned that BCP may eventually move to paid-only without the option for free. I've spoken to BCP guys a few times and know that their whole goal is just to have a simple piece of software that aids miniature gaming, and that they fully intend on keeping it free. I would be stunned if they ever went paid-only. My opinion of the ITC may be a biased. Full disclosure: I earned #1 for ITC this last season, and definitely appreciated it. So my thoughts on this subject are coming through that lens. -I've played at 6 or RTT's this past year, Broadside Bash, SoCal Open, and LVO. That adds up to quite a few games. I played the same army list since day 1 of GHB2017. I know that my army is very strong, and that some armies I play against don't stand much chance against it. With that in mind, I always try to be the best sportsman I can. I know there are people who win with a "Crush you and feel no sympathy" attitude that is really just horrible to lose to. I've had numerous discussions with opponents about my army and theirs following games, and they're always great talks. So yes, I play to win. But I can't stand the idea of lambasting a guy or ending a game with a guy hating my guts. I think there is a way to win in such a way where your opponent says "Well, I lost, but it was to a great guy so I had fun!". I had this attitude when I lost to the guy who won LVO. Would I have loved to win the LVO? Absolutely. He beat me fair and square, we laughed throughout the game, were cracking jokes, and enjoying each other's misfortune in the dice. Bear in mind: This is the guy who won LVO last year, versus the guy who was #1 in the ITC going into LVO and maintained that spot. Quite literally one of the highest levels of competition in a game, but we played like gentlemen. He misunderstood a field objective at the end of the game, and I let him change his last turn to try and accomplish it. We didn't have the Tony attitude. But I think the argument for the rankings system is that it can unify the area. And while it can bring out WAAC pariahs, more often than not it brings out good competition that helps the game grow while still welcoming new players. I often will talk with my opponent at the end of the game about how she/he could adjust their list or possible mistakes they made, and this helps them know they're improving in the game. Maybe @Countmore could provide some commentary on how the competitive scene behaves in the UK with their rankings system in mind. Some may see people traveling across the country for tournaments as a negative. I don't understand why, seems pretty awesome to me. That's coming from a guy who didn't travel last year except for LVO. Our RTT's over here do AMAZINGLY well. There is no concept of them being dried up in lieu of larger events. RTT's are 8-10man over here normally, and there are 2-3 that can break 20 people! That's insane for an RTT for us. And I don't quite understand the criticism that ITC makes their own terrain for 40k. It looks STUNNING, especially on their gaming mats, which are super easy to use and pack. The terrain is fair-priced and gives you a uniform look, and is fair for tournaments as well. It provides good LoS blocking while maintaining a narrative on the table. I really don't see that as a negative. GW terrain is OK, but tends to have basically the same features. ITC terrain looks better to me. I would be amazed if the performance on the top table at LVO didn't leave them wondering how they can prevent that from happening again. GW guys watching the game were stunned into silence that it happened, and I'm sure conversations were had to the effect of "We streamed this event and gave you guys publicity, and got this PR nightmare instead. Handle this". So let's see what FLG does to address it. Bare minimum, I'm ecstatic that Tony lost to Nick because Nick did the same thing and said "I hate to win this way, but you did the same thing to Alex". Tony lost to Nick in the ITC by a measly 1.18 points, but it was enough! Hope he never comes back. The competitive community is kind of shunning it right now. Fortunately, AoS doesn't seem to have those problems, and hopefully never has cash on the line. I echo all of this and after reading both sides I have a better understanding of peoples reason for being pro or con ITC. Thoughtful posts like this that get seen by everyone was the intent of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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