Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Sception]

Nagash is as durable as two units of 40 skeletons, but almost as expensive as three.  And while he makes your army immune to battleshock, in 2k games you don't have much of an army left to run after taking him.  Most first cohort lists I've seen at 2k run a single block of 40 skeletons, with everything else being msu disposable formation tax units, or a morghast unit that is dead before they start taking battleshock anyway..  Any commander in the game could make a single unit immune to battleshock.

I'm not saying he's bad at all.  Just that at normal game sizes nagash doesn't support your army, he is your army, which results in rather binary battles.

[smucreo]

@Nullius Yeah, give him the trait that gives mortal wounds on 6s to hit and oh god is he scary.

[Nullius]

7 minutes ago, Sception said:

Nagash is as durable as two units of 40 skeletons, but almost as expensive as three.  And while he makes your army immune to battleshock, in 2k games you don't have much of an army left to run after taking him.  Most first cohort lists I've seen at 2k run a single block of 40 skeletons, with everything else being msu disposable formation tax units, or a morghast unit that is dead before they start taking battleshock anyway..  Any commander in the game could make a single unit immune to battleshock.

I'm not saying he's bad at all.  Just that at normal game sizes nagash doesn't support your army, he is your army, which results in rather binary battles.

I was skeptical as well, but I’ve tried it. The key is having 40 skellies and 6 spirit hosts to ride in nagash’s Vanguard. Nagash drops Mystic Shield on the Morghasts and possibly keeps them behind himself (within 3”) and ideally in cover. At that point they are not going anywhere being as they are also rerolling ones on their saves. This list works, trust me. I ran it against the nastiest shooting list I can currently construct in AOS and Nagash stood tall and ate most of the enemy army himself while the skellies and Spirits sat utterly immovable on objectives. Oh, and the entire army goes down in one or two drops. And I don’t need to point out how massively important that is for a Death army.

[Undeadly]

25 minutes ago, Killax said:

The fact of the matter is that this discussion pretty muchs falls in the same catagory of random statements that are:
- They just block your Ambush space
- They just stand on your Gravemarker
 

But those two.aren't random at all; I feel like those are legitimate things that Death Players will have to plan around and think about; Its not a random statement to suggest that a opposing player won't manuever his unit over the Gravesite, nullify its deep striking ability, and locking the unit within. You have to seriously consider how your going to be moving and placing your units as well, and know how and when to deep strike units, and you have to be aware that yes, your opponent will probably try to block you.

Personally, I think that instead of dropping in monsters, it is far more practical, and powerfull, to deepstrike in units like Skeletons or Spirit hosts; those units that are very powerful, but vulnerable to being shot at or are very slow. Dropping a 40 Skeleton Blob, 10 Grave Guard or 9 spirit hosts right on the enemy's doorstep provides a much scarier threat that doesn't go away that quickly. Back that up with units like Dire Wolves and Black Knights to help tie up the enemy, along with a powerful, but cheaper unit like a Coven Throne (Who recently got a great comnand ability) and spell casters, and I think you have a very powerful list; something like this:

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Coven Throne (260)
- General
Vampire Lord (140)
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
15 x Black Knights (360)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Grave Guard (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
25 x Dire Wolves (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 197

 

[Nullius]

6 minutes ago, smucreo said:

@Nullius Yeah, give him the trait that gives mortal wounds on 6s to hit and oh god is he scary.

Yup. And god forbid the silly Blood Pallaquin ability goes off and he finds himself at +2 to ALL aid his melee attacks  that being said I would always take the +2 movement trait or the -1 to hit trait. And I would generally take amathystine wings for an additional +5” movement. ( or even +10” on a lucky roll”) A damn near unkillable Vampire Lord jetting around the table at 21” or even 26” movement and then shooting and charging is god damned beastly.

[Killax]

17 minutes ago, Nullius said:

Vampire lords on Horses will get cleared out by shooting before the bottom of turn two. The only character on foot I would run is the Deathmage because of his Look-out-sir save. Both Nagash and the VLOZD can easily have a 2+ rerollable armor save. That is very nearly the most durable any unit can possibly be in the game. More important, with Nagash and to a much lesser (negligible) extent the VLOZD, once they are in the thick of the enemy army they can snipe out support characters and missile units with spells and shooting (not something Morghasts can do, nor can they get a 2+ save, nor can they reroll ones. Also Nagash makes your army immune to battleshock, and reroll ones to hit for all units for the entire game). So both Nagash and the VLOZD are significantly more durable than anything else in the book. With a 2+ rerollable save it will take in the vicinity of 80 rending, wounding hits to knock down Nagash. In that sense he is roughly as durable as two blocks of 40 skeleton warriors. He can also heal every hero phase once he is in the main fight. And if I can’t prevent Nagash from getting charged by a crapload of bloodletters, I think I would have had to have played extremely sloppily. Also he has a 4+ against mortal wounds (that bounces back onto your opponent o. Sixes...and the 6+ death save after that) . I’ve played him with the new rules and he is beastly. Nagash will eat bloodthirsters for breakfast.

If you choose to use your Vampire Lords the same way as if they where on a Zombie Dragon they will.
Nagash is more durable. The VLoZD is not, it isn't about saves or even the hitting potential of a VLoZD, it's his position on the board.

I deem it very likely you can't prevent Nagash from getting charges because hes both on a massive base and eats away such a large gap from the costs involved that you have nothing left to screen him with. The moment you arn't using the VLoZD for combat, you might aswell have taken a regular Vampire Lord.

This isn't a discussion about characters in a vacume, it's a discussion about armies because the game isn't character vs character based.

[Nullius]

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

If you choose to use your Vampire Lords the same way as if they where on a Zombie Dragon they will.
Nagash is more durable. The VLoZD is not, it isn't about saves or even the hitting potential of a VLoZD, it's his position on the board.

I deem it very likely you can't prevent Nagash from getting charges because hes both on a massive base and eats away such a large gap from the costs involved that you have nothing left to screen him with. The moment you arn't using the VLoZD for combat, you might aswell have taken a regular Vampire Lord.

This isn't a discussion about characters in a vacume, it's a discussion about armies because the game isn't character vs character based.

What are you suggesting is going to kill Nagash in close combat? Also, if the regular vampire lords aren’t doing any heavy lifting, nor are they really offering g any synergies, and they die to one lucky group of five judicators firing once, then what is really the point of taking them? Maybe as an artifact-caddy but that’s about it. Decent command ability on vampire lords though. 

[Killax]

2 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

But those two.aren't random at all; I feel like those are legitimate things that Death Players will have to plan around and think about; Its not a random statement to suggest that a opposing player won't manuever his unit over the Gravesite, nullify its deep striking ability, and locking the unit within. You have to seriously consider how your going to be moving and placing your units as well, and know how and when to deep strike units, and you have to be aware that yes, your opponent will probably try to block you.

Personally, I think that instead of dropping in monsters, it is far more practical, and powerfull, to deepstrike in units like Skeletons or Spirit hosts; those units that are very powerful, but vulnerable to being shot at or are very slow. Dropping a 40 Skeleton Blob, 10 Grave Guard or 9 spirit hosts right on the enemy's doorstep provides a much scarier threat that doesn't go away that quickly. Back that up with units like Dire Wolves and Black Knights to help tie up the enemy, along with a powerful, but cheaper unit like a Coven Throne (Who recently got a great comnand ability) and spell casters, and I think you have a very powerful list; something like this:

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Coven Throne (260)
- General
Vampire Lord (140)
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
15 x Black Knights (360)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Grave Guard (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
25 x Dire Wolves (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 197

 

If you want to play a competitive game every moveset should be a serious consideration. There are multiple ways to prevent  all garvemarkers being occupied.

I do think the list looks very solid! I'd also consider a Hexwraiths vs Grave Guard option in this list, especially because of Black Knights.

[Nullius]

3 minutes ago, Nullius said:

What are you suggesting is going to kill Nagash in close combat? Also, if the regular vampire lords aren’t doing any heavy lifting, nor are they really offering g any synergies, and they die to one lucky group of five judicators firing once, then what is really the point of taking them? Maybe as an artifact-caddy but that’s about it. Decent command ability on vampire lords though. 

Also you don’t want to prevent Nagash being charged. His natural point of highest efficiency is smack-dab in the middle of everything. All he has to do is surive till the next hero phase and he is going to do work from that central position. I guess what I’m saying is that I don’ really worry about being charged with death. Our Alliance is rock hard during the combat phase. And you can block off almost nagash’s Entire base with skeletons or zombies.

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, Nullius said:

What are you suggesting is going to kill Nagash in close combat? Also, if the regular vampire lords aren’t doing any heavy lifting, nor are they really offering g any synergies, and they die to one lucky group of five judicators firing once, then what is really the point of taking them? Maybe as an artifact-caddy but that’s about it. Decent command ability on vampire lords though. 

Nobody cares about Nagash if your Objectives are all thaken and your essentially losing the game by turn 3.

There is absolutely no reason for a Vampire Lord of 140 points to concern himself with any heavy lifting. If anything Summonning units and providing Deadly Invocation is a massive synergy. If 160 points of models is going to randomly focus on 140 that's all fine. 

[Nullius]

6 minutes ago, Killax said:

Nobody cares about Nagash if your Objectives are all thaken and your essentially losing the game by turn 3.

There is absolutely no reason for a Vampire Lord of 140 points to concern himself with any heavy lifting. If anything Summonning units and providing Deadly Invocation is a massive synergy. If 160 points of models is going to randomly focus on 140 that's all fine. 

You can run nagash and still have quite a few boots on the ground. Deadly invocation only works if your hero’s make it to the next hero phase in one piece. Which is easy if the table is terrain-heavy, but otherwise stormcast Tzeentch, and mixed order are going to eat those heros with shooting by turn three. But I agree Nagash doesn’t really shine until 2500 points. Sixty zombie sitting on an objective is with overlapping grave sites is really not going anywhere, especially immune to battleshock. They can also block out a huge section of the board.

[Nullius]

8 minutes ago, Killax said:

Nobody cares about Nagash if your Objectives are all thaken and your essentially losing the game by turn 3.

There is absolutely no reason for a Vampire Lord of 140 points to concern himself with any heavy lifting. If anything Summonning units and providing Deadly Invocation is a massive synergy. If 160 points of models is going to randomly focus on 140 that's all fine. 

I would say a necromancer in the middle of a block of 40 skellies with the crown of 6+ is the better support character. They can hose him with shooting too, but the look-out-sir that deathmages get makes them frustratingly hard to kill.

[Mikeymajq]

How do you guys feel about the wight king now?

He lost his awesome banner but he did gain some synergies due to being deathrazzle dazzle, right?

 

[Nullius]

3 minutes ago, Mikeymajq said:

How do you guys feel about the wight king now?

He lost his awesome banner but he did gain some synergies due to being deathrazzle dazzle, right?

 

He’d be good as an artifact caddy if he were 100 points. I like a Deathmage better. He’s cheaper, more durable, and he can cast those sweet, sweet debuff spells. And a ghost-dude is only sixty points and has a baked in, unrendable 4+ save. Perfect bunker for an artifact.

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Nullius said:

You can run nagash and still have quite a few boots on the ground. Deadly invocation only works if your hero’s make it to the next hero phase in one piece. Which is easy if the table is terrain-heavy, but otherwise stormcast Tzeentch, and mixed order are going to eat those heros with shooting by turn three. But I agree Nagash doesn’t really shine until 2500 points. Sixty zombie sitting on an objective is with overlapping grave sites is really not going anywhere, especially immune to battleshock. They can also block out a huge section of the board.

Present the list, good luck with defending the ground with Nagash alone. What is going to eat your Nagash are actually the Stormcast and Tzeentch based lists, amongst anothe few. You can indeed run Nagash, which leads to a new character sub-game. As before, there are enough who try it with Archaon and fail with 9 Fate Dice backing him up. It's possible to win with it the moment we're talking about two forces all out crushing and games that last beyond 5 turns. Which is uncommon for most events, you just don't have the time and body count to do it all.

If you do run into that Archaon or tripple Greater Daemon battles it can all work, but most don´t play that game with you. Which is why I focus on hordes and cheap characters who can. You don´t even have to miss out on hammers. 660 points of Harbingers or 600 points of Terrorgheists are often more than sufficient whilst you can include all the Heroes you want.

1 minute ago, Nullius said:

I would say a necromancer in the middle of a block of 40 skellies with the crown of 6+ is the better support character. They can hose him with shooting too, but the look-out-sir that deathmages get makes them frustratingly hard to kill.

Flying Vampires summonning potentially 19" out of the deployment zone are good enough for 140 points. This isn't something Necromancers can't replicate. I'm not saying all Vamps. I am a fan of 2x Vampire Lord and 2x Necromancers. Set up plan and lategame plan. Most importantly it's a cheap and very solid plan.

[Nullius]

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

Present the list, good luck with defending the ground with Nagash alone. What is going to eat your Nagash are actually the Stormcast and Tzeentch based lists, amongst anothe few. You can indeed run Nagash, which leads to a new character sub-game. As before, there are enough who try it with Archaon and fail with 9 Fate Dice backing him up. It's possible to win with it the moment we're talking about two forces all out crushing and games that last beyond 5 turns. Which is uncommon for most events, you just don't have the time and body count to do it all.

If you do run into that Archaon or tripple Greater Daemon battles it can all work, but most don´t play that game with you. Which is why I focus on hordes and cheap characters who can. You don´t even have to miss out on hammers. 660 points of Harbingers or 600 points of Terrorgheists are often more than sufficient whilst you can include all the Heroes you want.

Flying Vampires summonning potentially 19" out of the deployment zone are good enough for 140 points. This isn't something Necromancers can't replicate. I'm not saying all Vamps. I am a fan of 2x Vampire Lord and 2x Necromancers. Set up plan and lategame plan. Most importantly it's a cheap and very solid plan.

Had a great game with this list: 

[Undeadly]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

If you want to play a competitive game every moveset should be a serious consideration. There are multiple ways to prevent  all garvemarkers being occupied.

I do think the list looks very solid! I'd also consider a Hexwraiths vs Grave Guard option in this list, especially because of Black Knights.

True; but what I'm saying is that those movesets are not infalliable, nor are they uncounterable. You have to be very careful with how you choose to use those Gravesites. And while the Ambush is more powerful offensively speaking, it is far less durable.

Also, thanks for the reply; I wont lie, I do not personally like Hexwraiths all that much. They feel a bit too wimpy for my tastes, offensively speaking, although the MW and Summon both make them more palitable.

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Undeadly said:

But those two.aren't random at all; I feel like those are legitimate things that Death Players will have to plan around and think about; Its not a random statement to suggest that a opposing player won't manuever his unit over the Gravesite, nullify its deep striking ability, and locking the unit within. You have to seriously consider how your going to be moving and placing your units as well, and know how and when to deep strike units, and you have to be aware that yes, your opponent will probably try to block you.

Personally, I think that instead of dropping in monsters, it is far more practical, and powerfull, to deepstrike in units like Skeletons or Spirit hosts; those units that are very powerful, but vulnerable to being shot at or are very slow. Dropping a 40 Skeleton Blob, 10 Grave Guard or 9 spirit hosts right on the enemy's doorstep provides a much scarier threat that doesn't go away that quickly. Back that up with units like Dire Wolves and Black Knights to help tie up the enemy, along with a powerful, but cheaper unit like a Coven Throne (Who recently got a great comnand ability) and spell casters, and I think you have a very powerful list; something like this:

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Coven Throne (260)
- General
Vampire Lord (140)
Necromancer (110)
Necromancer (110)
15 x Black Knights (360)
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Grave Guard (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
25 x Dire Wolves (300)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 197

 

Holy hell i didnt see that Coven Throne got a awesome CA. The Throne could potentially be a good general. And it can take items and traits. Plus is has the biggest troll spell in the game...cast Beguile then charge the unit it was cast on and LOL to victory

[smucreo]

Hey, can any of you guys that have the book in english check the abilities of the Mortis Engine for me? I have it in Spanish and it seems it lost the Bound Necromancer ability.

[Xasz]

5 minutes ago, smucreo said:

Hey, can any of you guys that have the book in english check the abilities of the Mortis Engine for me? I have it in Spanish and it seems it lost the Bound Necromancer ability.

It's still there.

[smucreo]

Welp that's a pretty big errata right there then. Where should I submit it? 

[Countmoore]

Managed second place at a 16 player event today. Nagash killed three bloodthirstets and a host of other bits over three games. Sacrificed him to a mighty lord of khorne axe to win the mission in game one. 

Thoughts so far are that he is a great model still and stronger with the new spells and abilities. 

Genuinely excited to see how we do in some of the bigger events coming up this year. 

[Killax]

Ooh Death will be present, in many ways

The Age of Hope is DEATH!

[Nullius]

19 minutes ago, Countmoore said:

Managed second place at a 16 player event today. Nagash killed three bloodthirstets and a host of other bits over three games. Sacrificed him to a mighty lord of khorne axe to win the mission in game one. 

Thoughts so far are that he is a great model still and stronger with the new spells and abilities. 

Genuinely excited to see how we do in some of the bigger events coming up this year. 

I just ran a similar list and Nagash did not disappoint. He is very strong at full power. I lost count but he probably did close to 20 mortal wounds over a couple turns. Depending on the spell loadout he is pretty godly once he’s within 12 inches. I ran First Cohort though. 

[TheKingInYellow]

Do we have an answer to Kroak on a Vortex yet?