Lets Chat: Legions of Nagash

[Killax]

5 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Surely an opponent would only need to place a model directly on top of a gravesite to lock it out?  You'd never be able to place a unit wholy within 9" and 9" away from enemy models because you measure from the centre of a gravesite and the edge of the base of a model.  Not saying their awful or anything along that line, but I think their threat is actually more important than their application.

My point remains it's up to the LoN player to place them. 

Are we so unable to configure where an opponent can actually place it's model?
Or do we simply assume that every enemy model can reach any point on the table? 

The latter is a very big and vague assumption to begin with. The placement of markers depends on scenary, oppossing army and plans from the LoN player himself.

As to me this is pretty much the same discussion had with the Ferulent Gnarlmaw... Some players simply assumed from the getgo that it isn't impactful. I am quite certain that voice is gone now.

Now I read some players assumming that opponents can cover them all. I assure you this assumption is very incorrect aswell. But the thing is really that many seem to want to focus on what's not good. All the while they completely ignore all the bonuses all Legions give. It's funny to see but a very blurred perspective on reality. 

[Jamopower]

Yes, but it's a lot easier to block a grave site with single model than having to fill the whole 18" diameter bubble with stuff. Thus the positioning of them is important and placing too much "heat" in the graves can backfire quite easily. For example, I wouldn't put my big main battleline unit to grave with an idea to summon them close to the enemy lines, because if you don't have first turn, the gravesites close to the enemy are very likely already blocked on your first turn if the enemy doesn't play with full on footslogging dwarf warriors or such. Thus the threat is the main benefit from the summoning, not aggressive application.

[Arkiham]

3 minutes ago, Killax said:

As to me this is pretty much the same discussion had with the Ferulent Gnarlmaw... Some players simply assumed from the getgo that it isn't impactful. I am quite certain that voice is gone now.
 

Nope. Still useless outside of run an charge, just no one talks about summoning now as they've given up on it 

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Yes, but it's a lot easier to block a grave site with single model than having to fill the whole 18" diameter bubble with stuff. Thus the positioning of them is important and placing too much "heat" in the graves can backfire quite easily. For example, I wouldn't put my big main battleline unit to grave with an idea to summon them close to the enemy lines, because if you don't have first turn, the gravesites close to the enemy are very likely already blocked on your first turn if the enemy doesn't play with full on footslogging dwarf warriors or such.

Jamo... Really who is going to do that if you place your Gravesites on your side of the field?

Feel free to mention all the models that are so easily able to occupy them. A Flying Bloodthirster? A Lord of Change? And when they do so, will you ignore it with your own VLoZD? 

3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Nope. Still useless outside of run an charge, just no one talks about summoning now as they've given up on it 

As before you only need to thake a peak at LVO and Cancon to see how incredibly wrong you where mate  Nurgle showing strong and not only there. The option to hide support heroes is as relevant as LoS blocking is to AoS.

[Sception]

Having to pick which gravesite a imunit is in in advance significantly hampers my appreciation for the ability.  Mostly I just appreciate gravesites as a needed, unkillable source of deathly invocation.

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Sception said:

Having to pick which gravesite a imunit is in in advance significantly hampers my appreciation for the ability. 
Mostly I just appreciate gravesites as a needed, unkillable source of deathly invocation.

Which is why placing all four of them on your side of the field plays out as the most relevant asset. For those who want to have models on different locations, Legion of Night provides additional Ambushing.

[Grimnaud]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

Having to pick which gravesite a imunit is in in advance significantly hampers my appreciation for the ability.  Mostly I just appreciate gravesites as a needed, unkillable source of deathly invocation.

Where are you getting this from? The way I read the rules you declare during set up that a unit will deploy in the grave, and then you're free to summon them from any graveyard at the end of any of your movement phases.

[Xasz]

1 minute ago, Sception said:

Having to pick which gravesite a imunit is in in advance significantly hampers my appreciation for the ability.  Mostly I just appreciate gravesites as a needed, unkillable source of deathly invocation.

Is that really the case?!

After reading the rules several times, I'm not sure if this interpretation is right.

[Jamopower]

You don't have to choose the gravesite for the unit. It's bit vaguely written as there is mixing of "being in grave" and summoning from "gravesite",

5 minutes ago, Killax said:

Jamo... Really who is going to do that if you place your Gravesites on your side of the field?

If you read my and Runebrush's first note about them, this was exactly what we were implying. So having a gravesite off to the side and a unit in reserve makes the opponent think about if they have to babysti that gravesite or if they are willing to have stuff coming out of there in their flank/rear. Thus the main advantage is the threat, not that you actually summon anything.

[Killax]

Just now, Jamopower said:

If you read my and Runebrush's first note about them, this was exactly what we were implying. So having a gravesite off to the side and a unit in reserve makes the opponent think about if they have to babysti that gravesite or if they are willing to have stuff coming out of there in their flank/rear.

As above, who's going to occupy all of them and render the whole ability moot?

My point is that you can effectively use Gravemarkers as a massive speedbump for several Horde units. Because the few that can actually reach those that are on your side as a result will be a nice meal for VLoZD or whatever you choose to use. As several hard hitting options excist now.

[RuneBrush]

1 minute ago, Killax said:

My point remains it's up to the player to place them. 

Are we so unable to configure where an opponent can actually place it's model? Or do we simply assume that every enemy model can reach any point on the table? 

The latter is a very big and vague assumption to begin with.

Completely and how aggressive/threatening will entirely depend upon the battleplan being played and the composition of the army as you've also said.  I was replying more to your disagreement that they're easy to counter.  They're exceptionally easy to counter - your opponent just needs four "spare" units.

 

2 minutes ago, Killax said:

Which is why placing all four of them on your side of the field plays out as the most relevant asset. For those who want to have models on different locations, Legion of Night provides additional Ambushing.

Community team confirmed its two in your territory and two in your opponents territory on their first preview.  Ambushing is a different mechanic and doesn't require gravesites at all.

[Xasz]

Yeah, I think they just wanted to use some fluffy terminology... and added confusion.

[Killax]

Just now, RuneBrush said:

Completely and how aggressive/threatening will entirely depend upon the battleplan being played and the composition of the army as you've also said.  I was replying more to your disagreement that they're easy to counter.  They're exceptionally easy to counter - your opponent just needs four "spare" units.

 

Community team confirmed its two in your territory and two in your opponents territory on their first preview.  Ambushing is a different mechanic and doesn't require gravesites at all.

The funny part is that they are not easy to counter at all. There is no army that has four spare units that can reach them all in the current competitive meta  "Spare units" for such purposes do not excist. 

There is a wonderful place where the two territories meet and that place is a fantastic place to place some Gravemarkers  

[Jamopower]

Its hard to have all four markers in a location where they can be in a position to have a meaningful impact on the game and where the opponent wouldn't have a possibility to block them. If you have them too close each other, one big unit can shut down multiple gravesites.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Killax said:

As above, who's going to occupy all of them and render the whole ability moot?

My point is that you can effectively use Gravemarkers as a massive speedbump for several Horde units. Because the few that can actually reach those that are on your side as a result will be a nice meal for VLoZD or whatever you choose to use. As several hard hitting options excist now.

This kind of things are exactly the thing why I think that the real potential of the gravesites is very hard to speculate without playing few games, as I think that kind of moves are quite tricky to do against an opponent that know what he is doing.

 

And as I said, I think the real advantage of the gravesites and summonable units is to make the opponent think about if they need to cover them and thus have to use their "spare units" for blocking them.

[RuneBrush]

7 minutes ago, Killax said:

The funny part is that they are not easy to counter at all. There is no army that has four spare units that can reach them all in the current competitive meta  "Spare units" for such purposes do not excist. 

There is a wonderful place where the two territories meet and that place is a fantastic place to place some Gravemarkers  

I can see placing gravesites becoming an artform in it's own right.  You're going to have your quick deployment ones - 6" away from your deployment line with a hero ready to pop a unit up, objective grabbers (near objectives), buff ones purely to kick out some Deathly Invocation and bluff gravesites intended to tie your opponent up.  Place them too close together and a horde unit could quite feasibly tap all of them with some conga lining.  The potential is actually mind-boggling, especially with the number of units you can park underground.

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

This kind of things are exactly the thing why I think that the real potential of the gravesites is very hard to speculate without playing few games, as I think that kind of moves are quite tricky to do against an opponent that know what he is doing.

On that aspect I agree. The prime reason why I don't think they are very tricky to use and extremely hard to counter is because you (player LoN) place them.
Perhaps it's the familiar 40K play, Warmachine or Malifaux background in me but using these Gravemarkers well means you understand what your opponent can reach and what you can reach.

The easiest way to start out with them isn't the fancy flanking but the simple focus of where the two armies should meet. Which ideally is your territory, especially for the Legion of Night who then makes Summonable units even harder to thake out.

I personally do not see Flying Vampires as anything different as a Jump Pack HQ found in 40K. It reaches places, it reaches places savely if a remote form of scenery is on the table. When it reaches the site, summon as close as possible, which is still 9" away OR counter the model your opponent essentially has given up.

The suggestion that every army has actual models who can occupy all Gravemarkers is simply said not true in any of my lists, lists I know and lists that are known. Gravemarkers will be usable especially when they are near the centerfield.

2 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

The potential is actually mind-boggling, especially with the number of units you can park underground.

Which is exactly why I want to see more focused talk about it  

In general I believe that model placement is the golden key to this game and because of gravemarkers there is no real limit to it except the moment of the Death Hero in question.

Cheers,

[Jamopower]

Just now, Killax said:

The suggestion that every army has actual models who can occupy all Gravemarkers is simply said not true in any of my lists, lists I know and lists that are known. Gravemarkers will be usable especially when they are near the centerfield.

I don't think there are many situations where it is necessary to cover all of them. The Runebrush's post above is IMO very good speculation concerning the Gravesites. 

 

My plan at this point is to run an unit of zombies in the grave and maybe 10 grave guard or 3 spirit hosts in a 1500 point army. The zombies are there to have an unit that can either be a threat on the opponent's side objectives or back up for the own end and the grave guard / spirit hosts are to be used more aggressively. The grave sites around the area where the battle will occur most likely wont be much of use concerning summoning, but are useful for the healing side of things.

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, Killax said:

On that aspect I agree. The prime reason why I don't think they are very tricky to use and extremely hard to counter is because you (player LoN) place them.
Perhaps it's the familiar 40K play, Warmachine or Malifaux background in me but using these Gravemarkers well means you understand what your opponent can reach and what you can reach.

The easiest way to start out with them isn't the fancy flanking but the simple focus of where the two armies should meet. Which ideally is your territory, especially for the Legion of Night who then makes Summonable units even harder to thake out.

I personally do not see Flying Vampires as anything different as a Jump Pack HQ found in 40K. It reaches places, it reaches places savely if a remote form of scenery is on the table. When it reaches the site, summon as close as possible, which is still 9" away OR counter the model your opponent essentially has given up.

The suggestion that every army has actual models who can occupy all Gravemarkers is simply said not true in any of my lists, lists I know and lists that are known. Gravemarkers will be usable especially when they are near the centerfield.

Which is exactly why I want to see more focused talk about it  

In general I believe that model placement is the golden key to this game and because of gravemarkers there is no real limit to it except the moment of the Death Hero in question.

Cheers,

I am completely in your camp.  As the LoN player YOU get to decide where they go, which means YOU get to decide where your opponent has to either send units, or allow your units to deepstrike.  You can do silly things like place one deep in your opponent's backfield.  Then what?  Are they going to leave models there the whole game to babysit the gravestone?  If they do, you have neutralized one of their units for a cost of...0 points.  These things are strong if you use them as the tool that they are instead of wishing they were a different tool.

[Arkiham]

27 minutes ago, Killax said:

Jamo... Really who is going to do that if you place your Gravesites on your side of the field?

Feel free to mention all the models that are so easily able to occupy them. A Flying Bloodthirster? A Lord of Change? And when they do so, will you ignore it with your own VLoZD? 

As before you only need to thake a peak at LVO and Cancon to see how incredibly wrong you where mate  Nurgle showing strong and not only there. The option to hide support heroes is as relevant as LoS blocking is to AoS.

Its a tree. You can barely hide behind it using true los.

Also your initial comments were about summoning using the trees. The only discussions I've seen about that is no different to just using the old method. 

The top 10 nurgle didn't use any summoning and didn't hide anything behind it.

Also the level of ability at the lvo is less than in the uk, most of the players there were super casual, often never had played competitively

The 40k tree is completely different and should be disregarded utterly

[Xasz]

Spoiler

Allegiance: Grand Host of Nagash

Leaders
Wight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)
- General
- Mount: Steed
- Trait: Lord of Nagashizzar
- Artefact: Ossific Diadem
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)
Necromancer (110)
- Artefact: Terrorgheist Mantle
Necromancer (110)

Battleline
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spear & Shield
10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)
- Ancient Blade & Shield
5 x Dire Wolves (60)
2 x Morghast Harbingers (220)
5 x Dire Wolves (60)

Behemoths
Mortis Engine (180)

Battalions
Lords of Sacrament (70)

Reinforcement Points (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 160
 

My first draft.

[BURF1]

2 hours ago, Xasz said:

Pretty much comes down to what you wanna focus on.

Your approach is centered more around heroes and spells, while mine concerns itself more with units and buffing/supporting them.

My problem with LoSacrement is that both abilities are rather useless.  Their items are nice indeed, but depend on your opponent bringing the hurt in exactly that phase (ergo, dependent on meta). 

The orb combo can be played around (static caster) and more range does not always mean more targets. The jump from 12 -> 24 is much more impact-full than 24 -> 36. Either way, might be kinda funny blasting people left and right with a volleyball of death.

The jump from 24-36 is actually, in my opinion, more valuable than 12-24 on the simple basis of being able to hit enemy models first turn.

[Aginor]

Hmmm I can imagine it could be fun to see how a Seraphon list could block a Death player's Gravesites.

Not 100% sure it will work great but depending on where they are... if the Death player's tactic relied on it, it might out them off their game.

- Two units of Chameleon Skinks set up in hiding, those block the Gravesites in enemy territory (they can deepstrike very close to enemy units).
- Block the two in the Seraphon player's territory using something that has a good move. Some Skink unit or so. Maybe even use Dracothion's tail to put units right on top.

 

EDIT: Of cource that still means the Seraphon players has to have those units sitting on top of the Gravesites, out of combat, but then they can use LoSaT to teleport them into battle as soon as they think a summoned undead unit behind them isn't that much of a problem anymore.

[BURF1]

1 minute ago, Aginor said:

Hmmm I can imagine it could be fun to see how a Seraphon list could block a Death player's Gravesites.

Not 100% sure it will work great but depending on where they are... if the Death player's tactic relied on it, it might out them off their game.

- Two units of Chameleon Skinks set up in hiding, those block the Gravesites in enemy territory (they can deepstrike very close to enemy units).
- Block the two in the Seraphon player's territory using something that has a good move. Some Skink unit or so. Maybe even use Dracothion's tail to put units right on top.

Why would you block THEIR gravesites? You're just killing your chameleon skinks.

[Richelieu]

2 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

The jump from 24-36 is actually, in my opinion, more valuable than 12-24 on the simple basis of being able to hit enemy models first turn.

I'd have to agree with you on this.  The psychological effect alone is devastating.  It will frequently force your opponent into irrational decisions because they can't accept that there's nowhere to hide.

[Aginor]

2 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Why would you block THEIR gravesites? You're just killing your chameleon skinks.

Maybe. Imagine a Death player that - for some reason, I haven't read the Battletome - relies on summoning stuff onto the table in the first round. Sacrificing a few Chamo Skinks might be worth it if you can prevent their summons from going off.

Anyway, I didn't say it was a particularly good idea, I was mainly answering the users who say it is impossible to block all four Gravesites, which is a statement I disagree with.