Jamopower Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I would say that the problem is more in the line of sight rules than in the shooting rules. The true line of sight is a horrible rule for a game in this scale as it makes for a lot of "unrealistic" situations. On the other hand it's clear and simple rule that removes a lot of difficult situations and classifying in the rules so I can see why to have it. It is interesting that no one ever suggests to house rule the los rules to some sort of size class based, as they are in my eyes really same as the original "measure from the model" rules and the size classes (i.e. you can't see through the same sized or larger models) would be the same kind of abstraction as measuring from bases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, Jamopower said: I would say that the problem is more in the line of sight rules than in the shooting rules. The true line of sight is a horrible rule for a game in this scale as it makes for a lot of "unrealistic" situations. On the other hand it's clear and simple rule that removes a lot of difficult situations and classifying in the rules so I can see why to have it. It is interesting that no one ever suggests to house rule the los rules to some sort of size class based, as they are in my eyes really same as the original "measure from the model" rules and the size classes (i.e. you can't see through the same sized or larger models) would be the same kind of abstraction as measuring from bases. In my opinion the solution is to build and play with large amounts of LoS blocking terrain. It also makes for a great looking battlefield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamopower Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 That solution is certainly in use around here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Sadly very little of the terrain they sell blocks LoS, and it still results in heroes hiding behind barns waving their pawns forth as they hide from incoming fire. For Skaven, sure, I dig it, but for a Stormcast hero it feels a bit dumb. 40K at least nerfed shooting quite severely by having Characters be able to hide, without ruining it entirely. Hell it's still an easy system to game. I often fly a flyer as close to priority targets as possible, unleash hell on their chaff squad, then open up on them with everything the flyer has. It makes maneuvering matter so much more. It's why Tallarn are so brutal because they can hit from that flank you presumed secure and execute your Character before allowing the rest of the army to finish the chaff. That's the kind of satisfying gameplay I like. Not gunlines of Cannons and Arrerboyz pouring precise fire into everything as it struggles across the table. I was sick of that in 40K 6th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/30/legions-nagash-grand-host-nagash-new-summoninggw-homepage-post-2/ First preview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 So the leaks are true. More terrain seems cool though. Specially since it regens, which was the big concern for me because it meant that our army could easily get destroyed by getting your heroes sniped otherwise. EDIT: so glad the allegiance for hosts of nagash is what I predicted! Even more regen can begin to stack to make units nearly unkillable unless you destroy them in one turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 The leaks are true, sure, but the allegiance stuff is good beyond my wildest expectations. Four unkillable (free?) terrain pieces on the table which also effectively have deathly invocation? And allow for deployment shenanigans? And Legion of Nagash gives summonable units a 1/3 chance to heal every turn without needing characters on top of that? And heck, Nagash, the character who arguably least needed protection, can now bounce wounds to morghasts? Look, I still want to see a hero protecting rule in AoS for the thematic reasons i already mentioned, but the lack of such a rule absolutlely does not make the new 'summonable' system unworkable So... I was wrong. Very wrong. And I'm very happy to admit it! 'I told you so's can be delivered to me here or via my tumblr blog, minisception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jgregs Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 wow. that is a lot of information to digest. so a hero can bring back D3 to a unit in your hero phase you can also bring back D3 on a 5+ without a hero. gravesites let you deep strike units and lets you bring back models to a unit. so thats 3 ways to replenish units and only one requires you to have a hero on the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 In terms of answers to my questions: Yes, leaks confirmed. No, special characters not required as legion generals (else there wouldn't be command traits) Yes, new lores, not one (as i had expected) but two Yes new formations, at least one allowing nagash to pass wounds to morghasts. Between that and two new lores to pull from, Nagash himself should be an absolute monster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Yeah, as I said before what would make or break the army was the capability of regening without the heroes help, so I'm super happy. I'll have to admit I was wrong too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kozokus Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Sception said: I simply disagree that the current system in AoS is any better. It doesn't make any more sense that clunky inaccurate warmachines...blablabla I didn't say it was the best It surely isn't . But havin' tested "hero protection rules" for 20 years, the AoS way is by far the simplest and less problematic approach i ever met. Sure it is unrealistic and cluncky, but at lteast it doesn't lead to abusive situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I'd argue the reverse is also abusive, and something about melee something something, but I'd rather just be excited about the newest preview of legions of nagash single handedly throwing off all my doubts and criticisms, releasing the dark and terrible angel of optimism from the shackes within which I had bound it. Now I must battle for my life against its vengeful fury while simultaneously cleaning my painting table and pulling my models out of cold storage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vtek Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 So, how do you think, what units will be competitive now? My guesses would be: grave guard: emerging from the graves mitigates their slow movement. With 1 wound, they get the most out of regeneration. Possibly they become better than skeletons. Nagash: unkillable and able to heal units from the far side of the table. VLoZD and other heroes with lots of wounds - regenerating the units around them, and tough enough to survive sniping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 33 minutes ago, Sception said: So... I was wrong. Very wrong. And I'm very happy to admit it! I tip my hat to you for this I was fairly confident that we would see something good as the guys involved with Age of Sigmar love the game and enjoy playing all the different ways of playing the game. It's in very safe hands and they do know what they are doing. It also sounds like you can do the elite type lists I like with many models, so hopefully I can do the Zombie Dragon list for Heat 3!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Coming off the high of the preview, I'm still annoyed at the changes to the black axe king, and the removal of the wight king bsb, and the necromancer's rule no longer shielding it from mortal wounds. And I still would like to have seen actual new model releases. And while the grave sites should make the undead horde armies I like casually viable, I don't expect to see them dominating the tournament scene any time soon (though if his points don't change, Nagash very well might). It's not like everything is suddenly entirely rosey or anything. There's just a lot more to be excited for now, and the current balance of pluses and minuses has tipped distinctly in favor of a more enthusiastic overall disposition, imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 Adding this: Allegiance and abilities: Artefact: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I fear for the future. After the Nurgle tome, and now this, expectations are going to be sky high. I am certainly glad that so much thought and effort has gone into make the game as good as possible, but can they keep it up? Will the Daughters of Khaine tome be of the same quality? I can only hope that this is the beginning of a golden age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, Richelieu said: I fear for the future. After the Nurgle tome, and now this, expectations are going to be sky high. I am certainly glad that so much thought and effort has gone into make the game as good as possible, but can they keep it up? Will the Daughters of Khaine tome be of the same quality? I can only hope that this is the beginning of a golden age. Well DoK is allready doing well and full of potent unit designs. Don't mistake the lower popularity leading to armies being less relevant. Fyreslayers are a rarity still but certainly matter with particular builds. Likewise while we see mixed Order quite often now many of the Firestorm Battalions are still relevant. I deem it very likely Death will be around because one of the initial issues it had was lack of Battleline options and a decent Allegiance Ability. The Article confirms that at least this issue is removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonzai Posted January 30, 2018 Author Share Posted January 30, 2018 This definately helps. With the grave sites being un targetable it guarantees that your healing wont be gon by turn 2. Deathrattle for example is a horde based army, so it should be able to conga line off them to objectives and be pretty hard to dislodge. The other offensive buffs are nice too. So long as it doesnt require Nagash to be physically in the army, then i am optimistic. It is funny though. Between wild woods, gnarlmaws, and now grave sites, tables are going to be flooded with player generated terrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 8 minutes ago, bonzai said: This definately helps. With the grave sites being un targetable it guarantees that your healing wont be gon by turn 2. Deathrattle for example is a horde based army, so it should be able to conga line off them to objectives and be pretty hard to dislodge. The other offensive buffs are nice too. So long as it doesnt require Nagash to be physically in the army, then i am optimistic. It is funny though. Between wild woods, gnarlmaws, and now grave sites, tables are going to be flooded with player generated terrain. Yeah and I believe the generation of terrain is purposefully included as a functional LoS blocker to be there for AoS. In general GH2017 just skipped on a ton of terrain and I believe that even the current designers would agree that the Shooting phase is bending top end competitive army builds too much. As with Nurgle, this way you will at least have some guarantee of LoS blocking pieces aswell. Yes, this might be intended since the getgo but if no rule explicitly states X ammount of terrain should be present a gamer can't be held liable for bringing X ammount. Converting terrain pieces can be awesome here but my gut feeling says it will be the four Garden of Morr pieces, they are just excellent for it aswell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmir Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 I've been running morghasts in a local build up campaign with a vampire lord (under 1k lists) with 4 morghasts. Giving them +1A makes them auto-delete opposing units... To a point where I almost felt the need to apologize after charging them in. If you can run them in packs of 2 with this permanent buff that can't be taken away by sniping the VL... Christ. The people in my campaign read that and I got 4 crying emoticons in the group chat in succession.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 So do you think that they are doing away with Deathless Minions then? It is a somewhat lame and frustrating mechanic compared to Legions Innumerable, which fits the flavor of disposable undead peons very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elmir Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 It would appear it's still there. They refer to the crown working on top of deathless minions: "The Ossific Diadem, on the other hand, provides additional durability to your Deathrattle units, stacking well with Deathless Minions to make them very hard to kill indeed." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lemon Knuckles Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 It is impossible to express how excited I am for all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted January 30, 2018 Share Posted January 30, 2018 1 hour ago, Lemon Knuckles said: It is impossible to express how excited I am for all of this. Just open your mouth and wear the biggest hat you can find for every following Legions of Nagash game you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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