Calling all Order Serpentis

[Joshfz84]

I’ve recently decided I wanted to build an Army for AOS, and I’ve been looking at the Order Serpentis army list.  For a couple of reasons 

1) Cold one knights are one of favorite models, because they look awesome.

2) black dragons, and hydras, cause who doesn’t love those right? 

3) back in the old days these units were the mailed fist of the Dark Elf army, that if used properly could roll a front line like no ones business.

I’m what players in the new rules think of the army and, if it’s worth the trouble of collecting them? I know people are playing them, because the online store is sold out of drakespawn knights:) 

[MacDuff]

You're going to need some battle line troops. I don't speak Aelf, so hopefully somebody fluent in these forces will help guide you.

[someone2040]

Sadly I personally think Order Serpentis is not in a great spot.

For some strange reason only known to the GW rules team, Drakespawn Knights didn't see the same points decrease that other Cavalry saw. This makes them super overcosted compared to units like Dragon Blades. 

It's a real shame, but basically Order Serpentis is the better Cavalry/Dragon faction by far. Drakespawn Knights and lack of synergies within the faction just hold Serpentis back.

 

So overall, I don't think I would invest in that army unless you really enjoyed the aesthetic and were happy to play it knowing they're underpowered.

[Bjarni St.]

I'd strongly advise against it if playing is what you're after. They have only a very limited selection of units and what they have is mediocre. Dark Elves in general are in a sad state, as are most of the old armies that were shattered into tiny subfactions.

They scale up poorly since they're restricted to the same few units and can't compete with the newer stuff on the table. 

[Joshfz84]

well damn, so who are the big baddies in this new set? Did the undead fare any better? I was also considering chaos dwarfs since Forgeworld was kind enough to give us a full range? Who are the best armies so far? Apart from Sigmarines of course.

[Bjarni St.]

Everything with a book after General's handbook is okay. Then there's mixed order and chaos which will always have something going on just by virtue of their huge range of models. 

Fyreslayers are decent with their new allegiance abilities. Ironjaws are fine. 

Death are not doing well, they haven't had support since Flesh Eater Courts (Strigoi). The additions in Ghb17 are for really monotone microfactions. 

A lot of older style armies used to rely on Compendium and had that rug pulled from under them in Ghb17. 

Chaos Dwarves are fine on the table but don't buy in expecting further releases for them. This is it for the foreseeable future. 

[Kyriakin]

While the Scourge Privateers (pirates), Daughters of Khaine (witches) and Shadowblades (assassins) have very strong overriding themes, Order Serpentis and, especially, Darkling Covens suffer from an identity crisis.

For example, why is the DoK-like Sorceress on Black Dragon in Darkling Covens when the more Darling Coven-esque Dreadlord on the same Black Dragon Order Serpentis?

I feel Sorceress and SoBD should move to Daughters of Khaine, with Order Serpentis then folded into Darkling Covens.

Anyway, the Order Serpentis would be a fun 1000-point project while you wait for the fog to clear on where GW are taking the elves.

The fact that "cool models" is your first listed reason suggests the visual theme is more important to you than the army's ability on the battlefield. Even in this regard, however, you can still have fun 1000-point games with other "legacy" factions or against less potent lists from the newer factions.

Even in the pointed era, Match Play doesn't have to exist solely at the sharp end of the meta.

[Aezeal]

He could play them in a firestorm city allegiance.. Get some other stuff for battle line and afew stormcasts for roles you are lacking. Won't be great but still playable.

[GammaMage]

9 hours ago, Kyriakin said:

For example, why is the DoK-like Sorceress on Black Dragon in Darkling Covens when the more Darling Coven-esque Dreadlord on the same Black Dragon Order Serpentis

 

Because a coven is a gathering of spellcasters. Dreadlords are not spellcasters. Sorceresses are.

I don't think the Darkling Covens have an identity crisis. They develop around an incredibly powerful and incredibly paranoid sorceress who has surrounded herself with as many troops as possible, in an attempt to make sure that there is lots of stuff between her any anything that wants to kill her. It is implied that (with the exception of the elite Black Guard who stay close to her) her troops are at least partly under mind control. Presumably, hero units like Dreadlords, Assassins and Death Hags are too powerful for this to work on them.

[Kyriakin]

Well, regular Dark Elves (i.e. as opposed to witches, assassins or corsairs) are my favourite archtype in all of fantasy, as i like disciplined, static elvez and the uniformity of the black, silver and purple scheme. Plus, they are perhaps the most forgiving of the elf types to paint.

Visually, though, the sorceresses don't feel cohesive to me, and, unlike the aforementioned three Dark Elf factions, its difficult to imagine where GW would/could take Darkling Covens in the future.

In terms of aesthetics - if not, as you mentioned, the lore - the Dreadlord looks like he belongs in the faction, and is less squishy with a 4+ rerollable. However, he is an ally who can only really trigger other OS units.

However, if you run OS with DC allies - as I have myself previously considered - you obviously don't get any allegiance toys to play with.

For me the OS/DC split is awkward, as it is difficult to believe either faction will ever get built upon. In that regard, I feel they should have been more like the Dispossessed, Free Peoples or Wanderers as a continuation of a major Old World army, but with the more distinctive archtypes (e.g. slayers, treemen, flying machines, pirates, religious zealots, witches, assassins, etc.) removed.

As such, DC would at least have had a more sizable amount of options to choose from.

[GammaMage]

I play DC, and they are actually a decent army with the allegiance abilities, I no longer feel like I'm missing anything in the army (besides a spell lore). Order Serpentis, on the other hand, are not great. They don't have enough units, no magic, their access to rend is limited.

I like the idea of the Order Draconis and Order Serpentis as knightly orders. They need expanding on, however.

[Spiny Norman]

I really can't understand why GW didn't take a shot to make some decent connection between these, f.e. darkelves, subfactions. It's such a bummer that you can't join this beautiful army.

I was planning to start WHFB with a Darkelf army, pretty much 2 days after this plan AoS appeared and I set my plans back.

I'm ready to start now, bought a few models, Skaven and FEC.

But I don't know if I like the skaven aestetics, yet. FEC have some nice models, but are not particulary interesting in unit variety.

My heart still lingers with the Dark Elves. They're a beautiful army, but still underwhelming on the table. Additionally the army is pretty expensive I think. Blackguards/ Executioners add up quickly in $$. And Darkshards, Bleaksword etc....you need a ton of them.

Their cool monsters, like Hydra, Dragon, are pretty much worthless and therefore the DE lost a lot of charm.

 

I am still thinking I should maybe start them and hope for a Aelf release in the near future. But I don't know. Better not, just look for another theme.

Sadly the 2nd favored theme, death, is in a sad spot either. Against Tzeentch and Stormcast you basically can't play. It's frustrating, because a 3 year old could beat 90% of his opponents with one of these army, just by unbalanced ruling.

[Kaleun]

@Joshfz84

The most important thing is that you like the looks of your army! Play what you want to that is the most important part of this Hobby. Now lets talk about the order serpentis. There are 2 obvious ways to paly them:

1) Supporting ally for a Dark Elve Army (Darkling Covens, DoK, Shadowblades, Scourge Priv.)
2) Pure O. Serpentis

The new firestorm campaign opened the Anvil Guard for the Order serpentis. For Sample Lists and suggestions look here:

The Drakespawn are not "highly overcosted" we are talking about 20 Points here! Even if we would have got reduced Units you wouldnt be able to fit one more unit in even in 2000 Point games!!! The cheapest OS Unit is the Chariot at 100 Points. This means for a pure OS army the Point costs are irrelevant. Just build a army by yourself with the models you like and post it here for Feedback.

[GammaMage]

The worst part is, the Bleakswords have now gone onto web order only, which makes them double the cost for me than they were. It's actually cheaper for me to buy witch elves now and convert them. I guess I better buy more Black Guard/Executioners  quickly before those go web order too.

[Spiny Norman]

They don't seem to be weborder only here in Germany.

They were out of stock a long time, so either players go crazy for DC armys or the production is thinning out.

 

@ TE

I don't think it's fair to leave the "take what you like" in the middle of the room, if clearly OS is pretty much unnplayable by itself.

He will not be able to get a 2k fun to play average strenght army, except he allies other stuff in.

In most cases I'm disgusted by the "how strong is the army will I crush my friends?" approaches to the game. But in this (and some other) cases one has to ellaborate cleary, that he should re-think his army choice as an ultimate beginner, who is just getting into the game. If he still wants to: hf.

[Sarkazim]

It sounds like he just wants that nudge into deciding what army to play and he's narrowed it down to a few.  (As opposed to certain individuals who are just posting theory lists, looking for which one will win the most.)  There is a 'Let's Chat: Order Serpentis' thread for all of the specifics, so hopefully he's read that or will read it.

Order Serpentis is great because of it's low model count, which is great for those who don't like long paint projects, easy transport, easy setup.  It's not a bad army to learn to play with as the Knights are pretty resilient, especially once they're stuck in CC, and would simply look impressive.  Aside from the lack of Ranged, Magic, and Mortal Wound options, the biggest issue is the cost, as been stated.  Strip down the army is 1100 points if you include the Battalion.  Anvilguard gave it a bit of flex by giving it a 1/3 chance to be able to charge again, which is better than the Battalion bonus.  I agree that if you build a list going all the way up, you'd need allies.  If he REALLY wanted to go that route, this would probably be a decent starting force with Anvilguard.

Dreadlord On Black Dragon 
15 x Drakespawn Knights 
4 x Drakespawn Chariots
2 x War Hydra (200)

Comes in at 1600 even, gives you a Solid Core with the Dreadlord and 2 Hydras being anchors.  The Chariots will be the supporting/stalling units as needed.  It leaves the max 400 for Allies, or if you want to run the Battalion for whatever reason.  The biggest issue would be squeezing in a shooting, magic, and/or Mortal wound dealing unit on that 400 points.  
-----
That said, I agree, that he'd probably end up shelving the army for another choice after playing a few games.  I recommend going with an army that covers all the bases even though I didn't even take that advice.  For any newer player, then I also recommend one of the 're-done' armies.  You'll have more options and a longer life expectancy out of the models you purchase since the fate of the older armies still hangs in the unknown.

 

 

[Kramer]

11 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

It sounds like he just wants that nudge into deciding what army to play and he's narrowed it down to a few.  (As opposed to certain individuals who are just posting theory lists, looking for which one will win the most.)  There is a 'Let's Chat: Order Serpentis' thread for all of the specifics, so hopefully he's read that or will read it.

Order Serpentis is great because of it's low model count, which is great for those who don't like long paint projects, easy transport, easy setup.  It's not a bad army to learn to play with as the Knights are pretty resilient, especially once they're stuck in CC, and would simply look impressive.  Aside from the lack of Ranged, Magic, and Mortal Wound options, the biggest issue is the cost, as been stated.  Strip down the army is 1100 points if you include the Battalion.  Anvilguard gave it a bit of flex by giving it a 1/3 chance to be able to charge again, which is better than the Battalion bonus.  I agree that if you build a list going all the way up, you'd need allies.  If he REALLY wanted to go that route, this would probably be a decent starting force with Anvilguard.

Dreadlord On Black Dragon 
15 x Drakespawn Knights 
4 x Drakespawn Chariots
2 x War Hydra (200)

Comes in at 1600 even, gives you a Solid Core with the Dreadlord and 2 Hydras being anchors.  The Chariots will be the supporting/stalling units as needed.  It leaves the max 400 for Allies, or if you want to run the Battalion for whatever reason.  The biggest issue would be squeezing in a shooting, magic, and/or Mortal wound dealing unit on that 400 points.  
-----
That said, I agree, that he'd probably end up shelving the army for another choice after playing a few games.  I recommend going with an army that covers all the bases even though I didn't even take that advice.  For any newer player, then I also recommend one of the 're-done' armies.  You'll have more options and a longer life expectancy out of the models you purchase since the fate of the older armies still hangs in the unknown.

 

 

Seems to me the best advice so far. I would only add: even if you eventually shelve this army, you can use it as a base to build into any order army. Starting of with the 400 pt allies to your Serpentis, into a 50/50 Grand Alliance Order army until your serpentis might even be the allies to your second army. 

For me multiple projects work best. While working to a 2k slaanesh army I paint something from other armies close to every month as it keeps me entertained. Don't get bogged down to much in the idea of building towards that single army would be my advice. Start with the knights as you clearly love them, add a hydra, a chariot and a dragon* because it's cool to paint some bigger models as well and you should be set to play a few friendly 1k games and just follow your gut from there. At least that's what I found works best for me. 

* Dragon 340, hydra 240, 2x5 knights 320, chariot 100 = 1000 

[Kaleun]

I wouldnt go for a 2000 point army pure OSerpentis in the first place. Start with 1000 points building and painting. You might also wanna have some test-games with them to figure out how your army performs against your opponents armies and then think further ahead.

@Kramer

You are using the old point costs. With the GH2:

Leaders
Dreadlord On Black Dragon (320)
- Exile Blade & Tyrant Shield

Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
5 x Drakespawn Knights (160)
- Order Serpentis Battleline
1 x Drakespawn Chariots (100)
- Order Serpentis Battleline

Behemoths
War Hydra (200)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 940 / 1000
Allies: 0 / 200

@Sarkazim

Dont go over board with Hydras and Chariots. Their damage is weak! Hydras are a Anvil unit and Chariots might have the advantage of their model and base size in a Anvilguard Army.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

You are using the old point costs. With the GH2:

 

Oh dang, opened the wrong version apparently! Good catch

[Sarkazim]

The current army is built around being an anvil IMO, not just the Hydras.  The Dragonlord can re-roll all saves.  The Drakespawn are pretty hard to kill with a 4+ save, re-rolling 1's (and 2's once in CC), and a decent Bravery score.  As above, even when one unit runs away, the rest become Immune if the DLord is around.  It's an incredibly difficult army to move despite it's low model count.   This is a change from how the units played in WHFB.

The Damage output is really low, but that seems to be how they want the army to work now.  Can you outlast your opponent?  I feel pretty good saying that when it was just the compendium armies, that this wasn't a bad deal.  As we now have some updated armies, with variety it's not as good as a choice as it was when AoS came out, which is probably true of most of the Compendium armies.  I still think that he should go that direction, but it's up to him.

Pure Order Serpentis lacks 3 critical elements.  Shooting, Magic, Mortal Wounds.  Heroes/Monsters are also a bit of a disadvantage, and the reason I recommend at least 2 Hydras is that it's the best way the army has to do anything in 'Knife to the Heart'.   There are allies to cover this, but it's harder for armies, like this, to cover all 3 of those points with the points allowed.  If after making the list, the player is fine by not having those elements in his army, then it's really up to him.  I'm considering an OS list as well and seriously planning building up to this.

Dreadlord
30 x  Drakespawn Knights
2 x Drakespawn Chariots
2 x War Hydra
6 x Aetherwings (Filler)

I think with Anvilguard he'll have more options and could still do a core Serpentis force.  He'll have the option of keeping the Battalion in the Anvilguard if he wanted to go with a pure force.  I think just having a core of Drakespawn Knights, supported by Stormcast ranged which will also protect some Sorceresses, supported by some of the lighter cav, like Palladors, would be a more effective list.  As this is an OS specific thread I won't go too much more into it, but the OP might want to take a look.  He might simply NOT like the units.

@KaleunHe stated that he likes the models, sees that there is an army option there, and wants to know more about them.  'Don't Start' or 'Don't Play them' isn't really giving him information that he's asking for right?  I absolutely agree with you on this point, that they're not the best option, as they're not entirely flexible.  Any decent search for Order Serpentis lists, will show that not a ton of players are playing them.  I think with this, or any thread like this, we should simply point out the strengths/weaknesses and let the player decide.

I don't know what you mean by the Chariot Bases being any different in an Anvilguard list.  The Anvilguard ability doesn't force a player to make multiple checks for each unit it's in contact with.  It's just the 1 check not matter how  many Anvilguard units are in range?

 

 

[flamingwalnut]

6 hours ago, Sarkazim said:

I don't know what you mean by the Chariot Bases being any different in an Anvilguard list.  The Anvilguard ability doesn't force a player to make multiple checks for each unit it's in contact with.  It's just the 1 check not matter how  many Anvilguard units are in range.

Bigger bases makes it easier for a few units to surround a unit completely, allowing the Anvilguard ability to outright destroy them.

Ordo Serpentis is a cool army, but definitely a one trick pony. At the OP, don't think on what is competitive, unless all you want is to win tournaments (in that case, Tzeentch, Stormcasts, Sylvaneth are solid places to start) This is a hobby, and you are still right in cool models is still a solid place to start. Anything else in Order seem even remotely cool?

[Sarkazim]

3 hours ago, flamingwalnut said:

Bigger bases makes it easier for a few units to surround a unit completely, allowing the Anvilguard ability to outright destroy them.

I think this is where we're splitting on opinion.  I don't know what experience you have, but I think the Serpentis-Anvilguard synergy is purely in the getting them to run.  This will allow the Drakespawn Knights to charge more often without the need to retreat, to get that 3+/3+/2W going more often and it becomes less of a slow-grind.  This will make the Knights less reliant on the Dreadlord and Chariots to do some damage to hopefully move the enemy through BS tests.  The trick would be to keep the opponent from bridging his units across yours, so that if one breaks the other won't still be in Combat.  

The initial problem still remains though of all the units getting in each others way.  I see your point about being able to take advantage of the size of the bases to possibly wipe out units with the Anvilguard rule, I just don't see it happening as players who run pure OS will almost always have the lower model count.  The Chariots could advance to get those positions, but most opponents will learn real quick that the 6W Chariot will be easier to remove than the Knights themselves.  You're also not taking advantage of the possible Mortal Wounds those Chariots bring to help the Knights push wounds.

I honestly think that the Anvilguard rule is going to be most abused by Aetherwing units.  They're cheap, fast, have fly, and can retreat and charge on the same turn.  While not terribly difficult to kill, they can retreat over the enemy, and charge anything in the rear.  That'll create the killbox faster than anything else available in the Allegiance.  In a pure OS list under the Anvilguard, you'd still be limited to running 400 points of Stormcast as allies if you wanted to maintain the Knights as Battleline.  If that was the goal, you could still easily get 18 Bases for the points, which probably wouldn't be a bad idea on the above list. (I REALLY wish that my Shadowblades were in the Anvilguard because of this...)

It's given me some more Ideas, but I realized this should all be over on the 'Let's Chat', so I'll post those there.