Optimising Ironjawz Allies

[PlasticCraic]

I've been giving a bit of thought to the best use of our Allies slot - there are multiple holes to fill, so what can achieve the most within the 400 point cap?

I initially went straight to Spear Chukkas, because their long range, heavy rend and multiple damage can be brutally effective.  Best of all, because you can out range most shooty armies, you can force them to step forward into the Lion's Den.  

So far however I have found them very unreliable, and with their low number of attacks, I fear their "diceyness" could be a fundamental flaw.

Another unit I really like (though have yet to try) is 30x Arrow Boys.  This is the one that I feel will be most effective, for the following reasons:

- They fill the "Unit of 20+" slot that is advantageous in 2 of the new missions

- They give you the same number of wounds and board control as 30x Arboyz (they are on 32mm bases), at a lower cost (albeit a worse save)

- Unlike Ardboyz, because they are ranged, they can do their thing without having to step off an objective.  You can actually threaten, while still dominating the spaces you want to dominate

- They cover the shooting gap in our army nicely (unlike say a Rogue Idol).  Some things (e.g. Blood Warriors) you really want to kill outside of the combat phase, which this allows you to do

- Even unbuffed, their volume of shots makes up for their poor To Hit roll.  They will put out a similar amount of damage against a 4+ save (at a similar cost) to 10x Judicators, whilst offering the higher number of models and wounds discussed above 

- Don't forget they have rend -1 against monsters

- They synergise well with the Weirdnob Shaman (he works off the Orruk keyword), giving him +2 to cast, and providing a source of cheap wounds to soak up the mortals from casting on a double

- For 10 points more than the 30x Ardboyz, you can have 30x Arrow Boys AND a Balewind Vortex.  Given that 450 points from the Ardboyz puts you on an odd number, it's probably effectively the same cost in a lot of builds

- That now gives you +3 to cast and double range on the WNS, so he is now essentially your artillery, putting out mortal wounds at long range

- A WNS on BWV is also now a second tanky hero in Duality of Death.  Yes, he can be shot off the BWV, but he always could.  At least he is now automatically in cover, and essentially melee proof

- It can also give you a cheeky 3" hero phase move, pushing your Brutes etc forward when summoned

- It is also 2 more units (WNS on BWV and 30x Arrow Boys) that your opponent probably feels they HAVE to deal with, giving them target saturation and keeping your Brutes alive

So all in all, I feel this one unit can cover multiple rolls and synergies simultaneously.  Artillery? Mortal Wounds?  A 30-strong blob? Damage outside the combat phase?  All of the above!

How say you?

[Malakree]

I'm conflicted on this. There's a couple of different routes I've thought about going.

For cheap line fillers I think access to Squigs (60 points for 5), Snotlings (40 for 2) and Snotling Pump Wagons are all reasonably useful. The two snotlings are nice coming in at a wound per 5 points, adds a small cheap tar pit that also gets +1 to hit with their sticks while within 6 of an Orruk. 

Grot Shamans are good for cheaper additional spell casters, you can get 2 for 160 against the Weirdnobs 120, at low model count this could be really nice. The Gitmob Shaman gives you a buff to any other Gitmob you ally in and a 5++ transfer wound/mortal to nearby unit instead giving him the extra survivability, as a cheap and durable source Mystic Shield/Arcane Bolt/Unbinding he potentially competes with a Weirdnob if you have the hero slots. If you go for the Moonclan Shaman instead you lose the 5++ but gain access to the Curse of Da Bad Moon spell which adds an extra source of mortal wounds, his Madcap Mushrooms also let you potentially amp his next spell by 2. Since the Mushrooms are a separate ability you can use them before allocating any spells giving you a "safer" chance to get a key spell off, this works best with multiple casters however.

Following on from the above. Gitmob Grots give you a wopping 60 models for 270 points, at a wound every 4.5 points that's a huge tarpit for any army to deal with. You then have the option to load them with Grot Shields, for a 5+ save, making them exceedingly good at holding any objective and bogging down enemy units, which combined with the flag and/or some clever positioning you could put Inspiring Presence and Mystic shield on them causing a giant headache for anyone especially shooty armies. Alternatively you can take them with Grot Bows, getting +2 to all hit rolls while having over 30 models this gives 60 3+ shots. Importantly it combos with the Gitmob shaman, for 350 points total, giving him an amazing target for Sneaky Stabbing. Suddenly your cheap  tar pit becomes one of the biggest threats on the board pumping out 60 shots on 3+/4+/-1/1 which is honestly disgusting.

Personally I feel that Gitmob Grots out perform Moonclan Grots in terms of a cheap effective bulk unit, especially since you can add the shaman in for less than the moonclans 360 cost. That said you don't take moonclan for their grots, you take them for their fanatics, a unit of 20 grots with shields and a badmoon icon has a 4+ save vs shooting making the 100 points for 3 fanatics far less painful. As you can release Fanatics during the enemies charge phase you can use them to mess with the enemies plans very nicely, this is while ignoring the crazy D6 attacks they make on 4+/3+/-2/D3 letting them potentially decimate unprepared enemies. If you are as crazy as the Fanatics themselves 360 points gets you 20 spear Grots hiding a unit of 6 fanatics with a maximum potential of 108 inflicted wounds.

In terms of artillery I think I favour the Rock Lobbers over the other two options, primarily because you can get 4 at exactly 400 points. This lets you field them as 2 sets of 2 making them far harder for the enemy to teleport onto. The 40" range ignoring line of sight is massive in terms of positioning and with 4 crew they hit on 3+ getting an extra shot on 6+ or when targeting units with more than 10 models they hit on 2+ getting the extra shot on 5 or 6. This, along with their -2/3 attack, makes them generically good vs all targets and adds the much needed ranged option to IJ.

Before wrapping up I need to add that I haven't even begun to look at Orruk allies yet, I had taken the stance that I'd just get 30 Ardboys, but you're post is a very compelling argument for sneaking in some other Orruks to round out the IJ list with a slightly less.....grot....unit. The combo with the weirdnob is just amazing and it will go on my bucket list. 

Overall I believe that more than anything else the Allies option was the most important thing added to IJ with GHB2017, the range of possibilities and chance to round out their list is just fantastic. I honestly believe that when the best IJ list comes round it will make use of allies in a creative way to really allow for that extra flexibility on the battlefield.

[PlasticCraic]

Thanks Malakree, I'm glad you found my argument compelling!  I certainly took a lot from your detailed reply, and the case you put forward for Grots is very strong, so thanks for that.

I fully agree that the list that eventually shakes out is likely to make good use of allies - it's such a big deal for an army like ours.  The other new option is to use a big batallion and go for a one-drop list (which I discussed in my post on making use of the Realmgate), which really steers you to taking pure IJ and no allies.   

Of the two I think the allies option will shake out stronger - but let's see where this all takes us, and enjoy the krumpin' along the way!

[Malakree]

I came up with a hilariously list troll list with use of Aleguzzlar Gargant allies.

 

Megaboss on Mawcrusha

Megaboss on Mawcrusha

Megaboss on Mawcrusha
 

Aleguzzlar Gargant
 

3* Goregrunter

3* Goregrunter

3* Goregrunter

 

Options for the list include

-2 Mawcrusha, +1 Gordrakk, +1 Aleguzzlar Gargant, +1 Ironfist

-1 Mawcrusha, +1 Aleguzzlar, Replace Goregruntas with Brutes, +1 Brutefist (yes Ironfist is an option to you damn spoilsports!).

-2 Mawcrusha, +1 Gordrakk, -1 Aleguzzlar, +6 Goregruntas, +Gorefist.

 

The Giants actually add flexibility for what Behemoths you add to the line up and really should not be discounted as allies. Their stat lines are pretty solid and I don't think there is a 2k Ironjawz list that can use all 4 slots. When you then consider that an Aleguzzlar Gargant is 10 points less than a unit of brutes or Ardboyz suddenly they become a really solid add if you aren't using your allies slots. This list actually also shows the importance of the Goregrunta Cost reduction since I saves you 120 points in battleline tax.

Aleguzzlars are another really good example of why 60 moonclan grots just don't cut it for the allies slot, for 20 points less you can add 2 Gargants to the list which pose a much bigger threat and could potentially draw fire from your brute units.

I just can't help but Imagine peoples faces when we we slam 3 Mawcrushas and an Aleguzzlar on the field hahaha. 

[DeadlySarcasm]

I was very excited by the concept of running some spear chukkas alongside my Ironjawz when I first heard about allies! They are no longer a feature in my list, and heres why.

I was running a mixed destruction army for a little while with a Wyvern, 20 Brutes, 2 spear chukkas, 60 grot, some fanatics and a few characters. The theory was that the spear chukkas snipe out key parts of the enemy army while my boyz get across the table and smash em up in a fight. The reality was very very different.

Spear Chukkas are hopelessly unreliable. 3s to hit when shooting at heroes is just not solid enough to rely on it, granted you get the re-roll, but then its only 3s to wound. Its just too dicey, especially with the D3 damage (give me 2 damage any day), and in games people were literally ignoring them with no real risk to themselves, and those that did feel like they needed to go down had no trouble at all shutting them down.

On paper they look really solid, but when you actually get them on table they are just underwhelming, and thats 240 points of pure disappointment that I think is better spent elsewhere.

I think the moonclan shaman is a really solid choice, and I'm actually considering adding a second in my list. A nice cheap caster for mystic shield/arcane bolt without having to deal with the double casting nonsense from the weirdnob just seems like a no brainer.

I don't think I'll be adding much else in the way of allies to the Ironjawz if I'm honest, to me some of the other options seem to be adding stuff just because you can!

[Nico]

I like the Rock Lobbas, Fanatics and Gitmob Grots ideas.

[Sangfroid]

I do worry about too much in allies because out allegience abilities and often artifacts/command ability effects ironjawz, so more Jawz = more smashing and bashing etc.. 

that said spear chukas are okay 2 or 3 against certain armies and if they work you be glad you had them, but then again an extra 10 brutes will be better against almost all other armies and you will be glad to have them. 

i quite like the monsterous  arcanum stuff like colossal Squig, also think a mangler squig, or giant (or 2 giants) would also be decent choice as well 

[Jgroover]

I don't think there are any obvious sexy additions but some are boring and useful. I think a big thing we lack is cheap bodies to stay home and guard objectives, since our stuff is too expensive to just sit there. Some chunky units of grots fill that nicely as do bonesplitterz arrerboyz. 

[PlasticCraic]

One more point on this, I like the look of the Grot Wolf Chariot - I've got one on order.

The main reason being is that it sits nicely at 40 points.  With a 1980 list I'll happily have a roll on the triumph table, but 1960 feels like too much to give up.  I will definitely be giving this a try in my 1960 lists. 

It does also fit in nicely sitting on top of 360 points of allies (for example 3x Spear Chukkas, 30x Arrow Boys, 1x Troggoth Hag).

It's not hard to kill but it's lightening fast, and you can always find productive use for something fast and cheap.  E.g. against Sylvaneth, you can zoom out into the wild blue yonder and block a Wyldwood placement.  Against Khorne, you can lurk around the back of some scenery, then zip out onto objectives late in the game, when there's not much left on the table.

[Malakithe]

Giants and Troll Hag...The new Hag could be one of the best support monsters there is. The spell alone is almost worth it. -1 to save plus the rend from a unit of Brutes = dead stuff. Im currently working on a list that includes a Hag. A Maw-Krusha and a Hag would be a huge distraction away from the Brutes

[PlasticCraic]

Yeah I was excited to see the Troll Hag chat in the main Ironjawz 2017 thread on here...I've got one coming in the mail, should be here in sunny Australia by Friday!  Her spell is amazing...a little tricky to cast at 8+, but rightly so.  Really looking forward to seeing how people use her and what lists everyone comes up with. 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, PlasticCraic said:

Yeah I was excited to see the Troll Hag chat in the main Ironjawz 2017 thread on here...I've got one coming in the mail, should be here in sunny Australia by Friday!  Her spell is amazing...a little tricky to cast at 8+, but rightly so.  Really looking forward to seeing how people use her and what lists everyone comes up with. 

Yeah I'm working on a list I like with her

[Peter]

Resin incoming!

[Malakithe]

Ooh nice...im still trying to come up with a list I like...right now im trying to debate 2 Gargants vs Hag

[Malakree]

So doing a brief inspection.

List/Points Cost
The Giants are 340 vs the Hag's 360, she also takes up a leader slot. For Ironjawz specifically this isn't really relevant since you are never going to cap your 6 Heroes while having a hag in the list, you will almost definitely include her with a MK so you just don't have the points spare for that many heroes. On the other hand she only takes up 1/4 Behemoth slots as opposed to the Giants 2. In this regard I again don't feel it's going to be an issue, in order for it to be an issue you need to be running 3 MK and 2 Gargants for a whopping 1,720 points. You can't actually fill your battleline in that scenario. 

In this regard the two options are essentially the same. (The one thing not mentioned here is the Colossal Squig at 300 points) I reference it at the end but don't do an inspection on it)

Wounds
24 (12x2) vs 16 (plus d6 regen a turn)
In this regard it's harder to neuter the hag and ignore her, if you drop her to 2 wounds left and she heals 6 then she jumps from the 5th bracket 14+ suffered to up to the 2nd. However the Giants come with an extra 8 wounds before regen. Hence the Hag is individually harder to blow up/neuter but is far more reliant on her regen.

It's kind of close here, the hag is far more random, a 6 followed by priority followed by a 6 could essentially see her heal 12 wounds between your opponents turns. If she rolls a 1 every time then she will be on average 4 wounds short of the giants.

Damage
This is where we see a bit of a divergence.

Spoiler

Shooting
The first obvious difference is that the Hag has a 10" range  attack, it's a vicious one as well. 5 shots while above half health at 3/3/-2/d3 is just insanity, Great hit/wound rolls, -2 rend and d3 per shot makes her a hero/monster sniping machine. One super important thing to note here is that because she heals during the hero phase it's very rare that you will have less than 3 shots and realistically she is going to have 4+ shots most of the time. This makes even the MK's ranged attack look weak.

Melee
If the hag had the advantage with her ranged attack then in melee the Giants definitely have the upper hand. The hags Crushing Bulk is d3 attacks on 4/3/-1/d3 holding an approximate equivalence to the combined attacks of the giants Eadbutt and Mighty Kick which put out 2 attacks guaranteed on a 4/3/-2/d3 average, the important thing to note here is that the Giants attacks are actually BETTER than that stat line, it's just useful for a comparison to show that the giant will, at it's worst, be doing -1 rend more than the hag with this combination.

Then comparing the two primary attacks, The Hags Deadwood Staff is 4 attacks averaging 4/3/-1/3 there is a little variation here but not a lot. On the other hand the Giants Massive Club has a ton of variation, with an expected 2d6 (6ish average is not an unreasonable estimate) attacks on 3/3/-1/1. The randomness of a giants potential attacks in making a lot of small hits vs the hags small number of huge hits makes this hard to properly draw a comparison on. My personal opinion is in this regard the Giant and Hag are approximately the same.

As a result of these two comparisons it is then fair to say that in terms of melee damage output the Hag is approximately equivalent to a Single Aleguzzler Gargant.

Damage Conclusion
In regards to pure damage output the hags targeted damage output with her ranged attack is a huge boon, she can and will be able to snipe characters with it. In terms of melee damage output a single Aleguzzler is her equivalent, as a result for raw damage output I'd definitely give it to the Gargants.

Special Rules

One thing to point out here is that the Hag has no negative special rules, she will never ****** you with her abilities. On the other hand the Gargant has a negative and a neutral ability.

Gargant Fall Down

Spoiler

 

This is a combination of two abilities which can potentially ****** you hard. Timber itself means you are going to prefer keeping each Gargant as an independent model away from the rest of your army, The fact the direction it falls in is random means that you are adding another potentially influential roll off. It is only D3 mortal wounds but as a comparison it's essentially a free arcane bolt cast on every unit/hero hit. This ability on it's own is more about proper positioning with the Gargant vs the rest of your army.

Drunken Stagger is the really horrific part of this, 1/6th of the time instead of charging your Gargant is going to fall over. It means that the Gargant will automatically fail 1/6th of it's charges just because. What's worse is that the size of the model and fact you are charging almost guarantees that it can only hit your own units, if it's in range to hit other models then it couldn't charge anyway. This is a huge negative that could see your Gargants stand still trying to cast Arcane Bolts onto your own units. As a general rule it's not going to ****** you that often but it's something you need to be aware of and means the Gargants can't be relied upon.

 

The only saving grace here is that you get 2 Gargants not 1 so the odds of them BOTH messing up is far smaller. As such I would consider this ability to be largely neutral for comparison purposes.

Other Stuff
All the other abilities are purely positive. The Gargants Stuff Em In Me Bag will instikill a 1 wound model on a 2+, 2 wounds on a 4+ and 3 wounds on a 6, It's a nice addition to the kit which is going to average a mortal wound a turn.

Terrible Stench just causes all melee attacks against the Hag to be at -1 to hit her, this is amazing what else can you say. 

Lastly is the fact the Hag is a wizard, she doesn't get any buffs to her casting/unbinding but as a super tanky wizard she threatens unbinding basically every spell your opponent does, when combined with the Spellspite that makes her a huge anti-wizard threat. Her unique spell is then a nice bonus but it's pretty high casting value so isn't guaranteed. 

Conclusion

In terms of raw melee damage output the double Gargant is better. If you just want big things to walk forward and hit stuff I think this is your go to. I suspect these will more often be useful as a single cheap behemoth. Though I didn't include it in this comparison I think the Colossal Squig is going to end up as a better choice than a pair of gargants for pure melee output, it's random is far less punishing, it's only 300 instead of 340 meaning you still have some allies points open (plus it goes in a 1.5k list) and it's just all round better.

In terms of technical utility the Hag is better. She's specifically amazing as an Anti-Wizard inclusion, her mortal wounds on unbinds is fantastic and when combined with her ranged attack make her great at sniping enemy wizards/heroes. For combat though shes far more of a tar pit than damage dealer when compared with a pair of gargants.

So the conclusion I've come to.

1) If you aren't running any wizards in your list, Weirdnob Shaman etc. the Troggoth Hag is clearly the superior choice. With 1 other wizard she goes down a little but is probably still competitive. At 2 or more Wizards I'd be tempted to skip on her.

2) For reliable damage dealing behemoth go for a Colossal Squig. It still has random elements but bad random will make it mediocre rather than bad. On the other hand Good random can make it amazing (18-24" move). At 300 points it still leaves other ally options open (Gobo Shaman!!!!) and is probably competitive with a unit of 10 brutes.

3) In terms of pure wounds and fat on the board, take the pair of Aleguzzlars. They're 24 wounds with no conditionals, reasonable damage output and individually punch above their weights at 170 points. I'd say most of the time you will be taking one of these instead of 5 Brutes or 10 Ardboyz.

[Malakithe]

Haha brief...well another thought I'm having with the list is target saturation. When your oppentent stares down the line of Brutes, Megabosses, and monsters, who get shot first? How much firepower will i need to kill that damn Hag? Or holy ****** there is a Gargant on both flanks...on top of the 20ish Brutes running around.

Each one is very different in terms of roles but regardless my list will at a minimum include a ton of brutes and a MK in addition to Gargants or the Hag

[BunkhouseBuster]

I'm torn on the ideas for Allies for my Ironjawz.  I've been playing a Gargant with mine for the past 7 months since one came in that Ironjawz holiday bundle last year because I haven't been able to afford many other models for my Ironjawz (darned kids ).  So really, I have been playing a GH2017 army since 7 months before it came out!

Looking at my GH2017, it's great to have options, but what about not even bothering with Allies as a way to optimize?  I mean, I'm not sure I really want any other Allies for my Ironjawz.  Sure, Ironjawz are lacking in ranged and Mortal Wound output outside of a Weirdnob Shaman, but is that really an issue?  Ironjawz may be lacking in that area, but they make up for it with resiliency, decent mobility (with Battalion bonuses), and the strongest melee abilities outside of a Khorne army (lots of attacks with Rend on them).  What about increasing the army's inherent strengths rather than trying fill in the weaknesses?  Maybe it stems from my disappointment in not being able to take a Thundertusk as my Ally like I was hoping when I first read about Allies being added in, but the more I think about it, the more I'm good with just adding in more Ironjawz.

I asked my Megaboss, Blurrog, what he thinks on the matter:

"Oy, wot's dis?  Gettin' sum more gits in Da Waaagh?  I don' see a problem wif dat.  Sure, dey may not be propa Orks, but if dey fight like dat big git we already's got wiff us, den I don' see a problem with having more gits in Da Waaagh.  It'd be great if'n dey was propa Orky boys, but I ain'ts gonna say no to a bigga Waaagh!  Big troll gits, more big big gits, dem ogre gits, or even a propa dragon git, all gits are welcome in me own Waaagh.  So long as dey ain't no Grots.  I gets tired of scrapin' dem off of me boots afta figths.

Since now dat's settled, when's I'm gettin' me own Maw-Crusha?  I's gettin' bored of usin' me own feet to get everywhere!"

I think I need to have a talk with my Megaboss about the family budget...

[Malakree]

I think there are ways you can work around not having allies. You could even take the Rogue Idol as something which isn't so much an ally, more of a very large helping foot from Gork!

Imagine if Gork was to put on a large set of Stone Armour and lead the Ironjawz, basically what it is!

9 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Each one is very different in terms of roles but regardless my list will at a minimum include a ton of brutes and a MK in addition to Gargants or the Hag

As I said it really depends what you want out of it. If you aren't taking any wizards I think the hag is easily the best option, she stands up front with your army is super hard to kill and gives you unbinding options. In this case the utility she brings is so much greater than the difference in flat potential between her and the gargants. The only exception would be if you know you are going into a VERY low wizard meta.

If the unbinding isn't useful to you, so for a game in your FLGS where you know your opponent won't have wizards, then the gargants would be the go to. I brought up the Colossal Squig at the end because it's effectiveness is going to be far more closely tied to your ability to use it, it's also just going to do better damage. 

Basically it's do you want Anti-Wizard (Hag) Damage Output (Squig) or A Pair Of Hammers (2 Gargants). 

[Malakithe]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

I think there are ways you can work around not having allies. You could even take the Rogue Idol as something which isn't so much an ally, more of a very large helping foot from Gork!

Imagine if Gork was to put on a large set of Stone Armour and lead the Ironjawz, basically what it is!

As I said it really depends what you want out of it. If you aren't taking any wizards I think the hag is easily the best option, she stands up front with your army is super hard to kill and gives you unbinding options. In this case the utility she brings is so much greater than the difference in flat potential between her and the gargants. The only exception would be if you know you are going into a VERY low wizard meta.

If the unbinding isn't useful to you, so for a game in your FLGS where you know your opponent won't have wizards, then the gargants would be the go to. I brought up the Colossal Squig at the end because it's effectiveness is going to be far more closely tied to your ability to use it, it's also just going to do better damage. 

Basically it's do you want Anti-Wizard (Hag) Damage Output (Squig) or A Pair Of Hammers (2 Gargants). 

Yeah that is true...I never really looked at the Colossal Squig. For some reason I felt like it didnt really fit in

[Aelfric]

I am at the moment rebasing my old metal grots with bows to act as allies and came across some old snotlings.  I am now wondering whether a good ally option would be 10 models (ie bases) of snotlings for 200 points. they are 4 wounds each so 40 total and despite having no save you would, with bravery 10, need to lose 5 bases (20 wounds) in one round before needing to take a battleshock test, and even then would only lose one more model.  You can create a line 29 - 30 inches long, which in effect could prevent most teleporting into your backfield, with the 9 inch away rule, while staying out of range of missile fire.  Wherever they go they would cover a large area for blocking purposes.  You can also still get 2 rock lobbers for allies as well and you only have to move 10 models!.  My worry is that I'm missing the obvious; if so I'd be grateful if someone would point it out for me.

[tolstedt]

I've played 3 games now with grot wolf chariots and they are very good.  I run 3 of them.

[Malakree]

@Aelfric I looked at the myself for the same purposes. Problem for me is that they are really very expensive to get just to try and I wasn't sure about them.

If you aren't worried about being out dropped having them as msu could allow you to block huge areas with them and have them be really annoying. 

[Aelfric]

23 minutes ago, Malakree said:

@Aelfric I looked at the myself for the same purposes. Problem for me is that they are really very expensive to get just to try and I wasn't sure about them.

If you aren't worried about being out dropped having them as msu could allow you to block huge areas with them and have them be really annoying. 

Yes the cost soon adds up.  I already have about 20 or so, which helps.  I suppose that as each base has 4 wounds you could get away with 4 snotlings on each base fluffed out with scenery and you do get 17 snotlings in each pack, so 3 packs would be more than enough, but you still have to buy the 50mm round bases on top.  It is a big layout on an unknown.   I'm still working on the grots with bows for the moment  - discovered I only had 40 ( rest are with shields) so then had to buy 20 more.  Will give them a go first, but, knowing me, the snotlings idea will niggle me until I succumb.  

[Malakree]

1 minute ago, Aelfric said:

Yes the cost soon adds up.  I already have about 20 or so, which helps.  I suppose that as each base has 4 wounds you could get away with 4 snotlings on each base fluffed out with scenery and you do get 17 snotlings in each pack, so 3 packs would be more than enough, but you still have to buy the 50mm round bases on top.  It is a big layout on an unknown.   I'm still working on the grots with bows for the moment  - discovered I only had 40 ( rest are with shields) so then had to buy 20 more.  Will give them a go first, but, knowing me, the snotlings idea will niggle me until I succumb.  

So my recommendation on that front is to get the gnoblars rather than more grots.

I've never had anyone question them yet in my 10-10 and they give a more rabble look to the unit. Plus you can then use the other 20 with shields and have "60" of each weapon option.

Just a thought ?

[Aelfric]

On 16/12/2017 at 10:15 PM, Malakree said:

So my recommendation on that front is to get the gnoblars rather than more grots.

I've never had anyone question them yet in my 10-10 and they give a more rabble look to the unit. Plus you can then use the other 20 with shields and have "60" of each weapon option.

Just a thought ?

Too late - already bought box of grots!   Having them with bows is just down to personal preference really and, truth be told, 5 without are scattered amongst them.  The idea of 2 units is nice but the thought of moving 2 60 grot units does not fill me with enthusiasm - another plus point for the snotlings - and sneaky stabbin' can only be cast on one unit at a time anyway.  AOS unfortunately does not lend itself to multiple hordes, which is why my old Orcs and Goblins have stayed in their box for so long.  I did try them out in the early days but moving 4 or 5 hordes led to a very long game, so have been sticking to the elves.  I have decided to go for the snotlings after all (eventually, as I'm a slow painter!) - I had a vision of the creatures in the long grass from the Mummy film and now I want to replicate that with them.  Will probably try them out in a mixed destruction list til I have enough Ironjawz painted.  I have to admit that I have been missing the little rascals!