GH2017 - Ironjawz Review & Discussion

[Solaris]

Yeah, this is looking gorgeous. These changes may solve all of IJ's current issues. Time to get back to painting mine!

[Rhellion]

Nice write up Chris.

[domus]

If Gordrakk goes down enough, I'm super excited to give him another try with this new allegiance ability. 

[Jesper77]

Damn I hate when I get all negative. But tbh I dont get that "feel" for it. To much random things. The "nerfs" got some things to go from overpowered to more or less useless. Well maybe not useless but meeh. The changes, as I read em, doesnt give a feel of IJ finaly competing with Order and Chaos on equall terms. Thats kinda sad if thats the case. But Hey, like I said. Feel abit on the negative side today. Maybe gets better when I get the actual book. 

[N_Watson]

This is all out of context remember. By the sounds of bits and pieces from all the other factions, a lot is about to change in AoS. Don't make assumptions of how well IJ will do with this book based on how everything else is in the old book. 

On the random element, it is a dice game after all, and some of the buffs seem pretty strong. 

I'm going to reserve judgement until I get a game in with them, but I am pretty excited about playing IJ again, and I haven't played mine since April as it stands. 

[Sheriff]

Any Moonclan/Spiderfang reviews out yet?

[Payce]

2 hours ago, Solaris said:

Yeah, this is looking gorgeous. These changes may solve all of IJ's current issues. Time to get back to painting mine!

To be fair, these changes, while awesome, doesn't change any of Ironjawz's issues. The lack of reliable Mortal Wounds is still there, the issue with bravery is only briefly adressed, and we're getting slower. What we ARE, is getting significantly killier, and getting a lot of added synergies to what we already have. In short, this pretty much changes how we're going to look at Ironjawz completely.

I've been an advocate of the 30-strong Ardboys unit for a while now, and I can easily see that being a mainstay in most lists. Depending on Gordrakk's points cost (and that you lose your command trait taking him), I could see a really beefed up Ironfist with maxed out Ardboys, 2-3 Brute units and 1-2 Grunta screens, a couple of Chanters and possibly a Grot Shaman for Mystic Shield being a thing. We have to slog up the table now, and need to adapt accordingly.

Having that said, I'm REALLY excited for these changes. Looking over Chris's review, I'm immediately convinced I'll be running Ironjawz allegiance 100% of the time over destro, which is a good thing. I can't wait until I get the points values and start working.

[Nico]

Quote

and we're getting slower

Are we? Maybe by 2".

[Xelotath]

I think even with Gordrakk getting a points drop it'll be difficult to justify taking him over a generic megaboss that can have an artefact and a command trait.

i think when you're looking at, for instance Nurgle, the Glottkin fill a unique hole in the army and taking a generic hero with artefacts won't fill that same role.

A Megaboss on a crusha does the same thing just not as well, kill stuff! 

That said I prefer it that way as I love to mix and match my options! 

[Ollie Grimwood]

Gordrakk does have a seriously good Command Ability. He is also pretty damn cool in Fury of Gork as well.


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[Southern trolls]

@Chris Tomlin well that was a nice pie sir! Super pumped on the upcoming changes, keep us posted on any practice games you have! Thanks for the sneak peak

[Malakithe]

@Chris Tomlin can you explain the battle traits more? I'm a bit confused on them.

Also what about the new battalions?

[Payce]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

Are we? Maybe by 2".

Specifically by D6 per unit per hero phase.

[Megaboss86]

I'm not so sure on brutish cunning I mean interrupting a charge can be great and all but it's on a 5+ meaning it can fail to go off a lot of the time and if it goes off you still don't get to strike first so unless you manage to move the fight away from an objective you could just take the charge? Seems very situational but it's that only going off on a 5+ that puts me off 

 

PLEASE DO NOT BLOCK QUOTE LIKE THAT

[Malakithe]

6 minutes ago, Megaboss86 said:

I'm not so sure on brutish cunning I mean interrupting a charge can be great and all but it's on a 5+ meaning it can fail to go off a lot of the time and if it goes off you still don't get to strike first so unless you manage to move the fight away from an objective you could just take the charge? Seems very situational but it's that only going off on a 5+ that puts me off 

I absolutely hate all these new abilities that are 5+ or 6. Makes for wasted traits and items

[Lawrence]

Re. Brutish Cunning.  I agree that anything which activiates on a 5+ once per turn is probably too unreliable to count on but to me this is a great way of potentially getting a unit into combat earlier that your opponent would rather avoid fighting.  

Also, no one seems have commented that one real change is how much more effective gore gruntas will be. Not only do they have a points drop but with the army wide +1 charge - they can now risk those 8" charges to activate the D3 damage rules for the mount - not game changing but turns a fairly poor unit into something worth taking.

[Fungrim]

Cheers for posting this @Chris Tomlin

Ace to get an early insight into what we're in for!

Have to say, at first glance, I got a pang of worry about losing our greatest asset (movement), and was concerned that the new abilities may not make up for it. The drop in points got me all excited only to realise the Ironfist nerf might undermine this completely.

THAT said, as others have alluded to, this is premature and we'll all have a better feel for it in a weeks time. There's definitely a lot to be excited about and the new abilities will open up so much in terms of list building and gameplay.

Also, didn't realise we were getting warscroll cards!! Pre-ordered them this morning along with the book and the Open War cards. Psyched for a day of releases and gaming next Saturday

[Tizianolol]

And now we can finally use 10 brutes with inspiring presence ( the command trait) and use waagh as command ability!! We have not to chose

[Solaris]

3 hours ago, Payce said:

To be fair, these changes, while awesome, doesn't change any of Ironjawz's issues. The lack of reliable Mortal Wounds is still there, the issue with bravery is only briefly adressed, and we're getting slower.

I beg to differ. 1-3 extra uses of Inspiring Presence is absolutely massive, it hardly "only briefly" addresses the bravery issues. The lack of ranged, and the lack of mortal wounds, can be handled with Allies. Those are, in my mind, the three main issues Ironjawz have - bravery, lack of mortal wounds and lack of ranged attacks. It looks to me like we will be able to cover up for at least two of those issues now, which is obviously huge.

@Chris Tomlin I have a technical question regarding Allies. Is it possible to use Allies to cover Battleline requirements?

[Sangfroid]

Re: Brutish cunning

it may seem weak because it's a 5+ but on average it's going to work 1 or 2 times a game doesn't seem like a lot and it will be annoying when it doesn't work just as it will epic when it works above average. 

However.... it is one of few mechanics that can give you protection against a double turn or and alpha strike (albeit a 1/3 chance). It doesn't let you fight first of course but we also have the battle trait as well and these combo together. 

So lets imagine some common situations 

1) you have 5 Ardboyz left holding an objective and a Weirdnob the enemy has 10 retributors 7" away it's turn 5 and they just need to kill 1 Ardboy to secure the obj you pop a 5+ charge the Weirdnob in (he dies gloriously) you win the game because they can't now charge or get to your Ardboyz 

2) your advancing to the enemies objective with 10 brutes they have 5 libs holding it, you fail your charge. Moves to their turn they aren't going to charge you as they will die plus they need to hold the objective to score. You pop the 5+ and boom you charge you kill them and stop them scoring maybe even score yourself AND if there are other combats going now you have the chance to fight first somewhere else.

3) you have a Mawcrusha and 10 Ardboyz and they have a stonehorn stamping his foot ready to charge your general, you pop the 5+ send in the Ardboyz stopping the mortal wounds and next turn you can charge the stonehorn or if the Ardboyz have survived retreat them and your general can charge something else 

4) you have 15 brutes they have 30 bloodletters you cant avoid them but you pop the 5+ and charge them, you then position your brutes to minimise the attacks on you because they can only pile in 3"  you have a 2" range so you can set it so you will maximise the attacks back when it's your turn. 

5) let's use gifts from the heavens scenario. You have 15 brutes and 3 goregruntas, they have durthu and 3 bow hunters and the bow hunters are on the meteor, he wants to charge durthu in and smash up your brutes but you pop the 5+ and charge the pigs into the bow hunters, he can't score now so HAS to charge durthu into the pigs or accept the points loss to take out the brutes. 

6) @Chris Tomlin this Ones for you! you have a Mawcrusha and they have 5 liberators, a lord Celestant (with command abilty deployed) and 10 retributors in a line. You pop the 5+ charge the Celestant kill with destructive bulk, charge the Rets kill one maybe but again they can't  now maximise their attacks and you have broken their 5+ mortals combo. (Or you charge the libs kill them and if your lucky the rets can't charge you as you have catapulted away :-)

I could sit here all night the tactical opportunity it gives us is outstanding and the fact it's a 5+ is fair, because once opponents get used to it the more defensive minded souls will play as if your going to roll it every time (which can also be exploited by a kunnin Megaboss) 

my fav thing about this is it's the opposite chance to get a benefit over the D3 battleshock immune making both choices very viable :-)

 

[Hypno]

hey Chris

don't know if your allowed to share but doesn't seem allies work both ways as Moonclan can't ally with Ironjawz but Ironjawz can with Moonclan, so i was wondering if Beastclaw can ally with Ironjawz? 

Thanks Kane

[Eric54114]

20 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

Re: Brutish cunning

it may seem weak because it's a 5+ but on average it's going to work 1 or 2 times a game doesn't seem like a lot and it will be annoying when it doesn't work just as it will epic when it works above average. 

However.... it is one of few mechanics that can give you protection against a double turn or and alpha strike (albeit a 1/3 chance). It doesn't let you fight first of course but we also have the battle trait as well and these combo together. 

So lets imagine some common situations 

1) you have 5 Ardboyz left holding an objective and a Weirdnob the enemy has 10 retributors 7" away it's turn 5 and they just need to kill 1 Ardboy to secure the obj you pop a 5+ charge the Weirdnob in (he dies gloriously) you win the game because they can't now charge or get to your Ardboyz 

2) your advancing to the enemies objective with 10 brutes they have 5 libs holding it, you fail your charge. Moves to their turn they aren't going to charge you as they will die plus they need to hold the objective to score. You pop the 5+ and boom you charge you kill them and stop them scoring maybe even score yourself AND if there are other combats going now you have the chance to fight first somewhere else.

3) you have a Mawcrusha and 10 Ardboyz and they have a stonehorn stamping his foot ready to charge your general, you pop the 5+ send in the Ardboyz stopping the mortal wounds and next turn you can charge the stonehorn or if the Ardboyz have survived retreat them and your general can charge something else 

4) you have 15 brutes they have 30 bloodletters you cant avoid them but you pop the 5+ and charge them, you then position your brutes to minimise the attacks on you because they can only pile in 3"  you have a 2" range so you can set it so you will maximise the attacks back when it's your turn. 

5) let's use gifts from the heavens scenario. You have 15 brutes and 3 goregruntas, they have durthu and 3 bow hunters and the bow hunters are on the meteor, he wants to charge durthu in and smash up your brutes but you pop the 5+ and charge the pigs into the bow hunters, he can't score now so HAS to charge durthu into the pigs or accept the points loss to take out the brutes. 

6) @Chris Tomlin this Ones for you! you have a Mawcrusha and they have 5 liberators, a lord Celestant (with command abilty deployed) and 10 retributors in a line. You pop the 5+ charge the Celestant kill with destructive bulk, charge the Rets kill one maybe but again they can't  now maximise their attacks and you have broken their 5+ mortals combo. (Or you charge the libs kill them and if your lucky the rets can't charge you as you have catapulted away :-)

I could sit here all night the tactical opportunity it gives us is outstanding and the fact it's a 5+ is fair, because once opponents get used to it the more defensive minded souls will play as if your going to roll it every time (which can also be exploited by a kunnin Megaboss) 

my fav thing about this is it's the opposite chance to get a benefit over the D3 battleshock immune making both choices very viable :-)

 

Can definitely see some of these scenarios playing out. My issue is that the range is only 6" for Brutish Cunning  - you feel obliged to take a Maw Krusha General due to his pie plate sized base and max out the potential.

BTW, three cheers to @Chris Tomlin for the review. Obviously can't reveal everything, but this is definitely got me amped for next weeks' release 

[Solaris]

32 minutes ago, Sangfroid said:

I could sit here all night the tactical opportunity it gives us is outstanding and the fact it's a 5+ is fair, because once opponents get used to it the more defensive minded souls will play as if your going to roll it every time (which can also be exploited by a kunnin Megaboss) 

Obviously the tactical possibilities with this ability are immense, as anyone used to playing with Fanatics would tell you. However, the 5+ is a turnoff for me, since chances are you are going to need it at a crucial point in the game and not care too much about it the rest of the game. This is my experience with the one Fanatic I use - there is one extremely crucial instance in the game where I need him, and afterwards there is not really much use in interrupting charges anymore. I'd much prefer Brutish Cunning as a once per battle ability, so you'd be sure to have it when you really needed it.

I think the mind games you talk about are valid, but they go both ways - do I set myself up for needing the counter charge to go off, or do I position more defensively, thereby not caring if it goes off or not?

All in all, I much favour Bestial Charisma since it just looks far more solid to me.

[Tizianolol]

With bestial charisma have i to use inspiring presence for my command ability ( and with that i got d3 units) or i can use waagh as command ability and i can use bestial charisma for d3 units?

[Chillpill]

Fanks for the writeup Boss!!

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