Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[Qaz]

Impulse buy of the year! Quite the model and I've enjoyed painting it. Now to find a list for her. Anyone has any tips for DoK listbuilding? Morathi; Not horde (<50 models); and something with at least a snake lady box, a harpy box (aka not spammy). 

[Resolv]

What do you think about this list of 2000p?

Temple: Hagg Nar

10x Witch Aelves

10x Witch Aelves

10x Witch Aelves

1x Morathi

1x Hag Queen on Cauldron of Blood

10x Blood Stalkers

10x Blood Stalkers

10x Blood Sisters

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Qaz said:

Impulse buy of the year! Quite the model and I've enjoyed painting it. Now to find a list for her. Anyone has any tips for DoK listbuilding? Morathi; Not horde (<50 models); and something with at least a snake lady box, a harpy box (aka not spammy). 

If you want to build a decent list youll want to use the battalions. Unfortunately(for you lol) the battalions are very spammy.

Shadow Partol requires 4 units harpies. Temple Nest requires 4 units of snakes. And i think the units are cheap enough that youll want multilples anyway

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Slaughter Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (330)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion 
- Artefact: Khainite Pendant 
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mirror Dance
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Blessing of Khaine
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
Cauldron Guard (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 117

4 drop list.  Buff up Morathi with prayers and Mindrazor, Khailebron teleport a hero/wizard downfield 9" from enemy, Mirror Dance them with transformed Morathi.  Fly into enemy during movement phase (Mirror Dance doesn't restrict movement phase, only the Mistress of Illusion does) and charge their frontline and wreck stuff.  Keep Cauldron back for Orgy of Slaughter next turn.  1st turn Morathi charge, where her 6s become 2 hits and with Mindrazor, you'll be wrecking it... but requires the Shadow Stone to ensure no failure on the Mirror Dance.  Since Morathi can only take 3 wounds/turn, you just try to get her in combat as fast as possible and kill whatever you touch.

[DantePQ]

All those 4 drops combos are quite risky and against some top tier armies like Clown Car, Changehost, Kroak are toasted. 

@Hulksmash list looks cool but as Burf mentioned a little hard to reliably pull it off. Also any one drop army will usually crush you if it has any kind of shooting magic. It would struggle against armies mentioned above but also against Gnarlroot and Dreadwood Sylvaneth lists.  Also againt for example Clow Car you don't have anyc comeback tools (like Morathi who even at 6 wounds is scary for KO and they often go for double turn so you can have 12W Morathi on).  I don't know how competitive you wanna go with it isn't very comeptitve against Clown Car, Changehost, Kroak, Sylvaneth.  As it's just to easy to blast your general away (whole combo goes down) or some SCE units (whole idea upon which army is build goes down). 

Also maybe it's just me but lists that rely on strongly on some spells etc (unless it's DoT which has a lot of spells) and having consistently certain units in certain ranges aren't reliabe enough, because in AoS a lot of can go wrong (like double turns) and you're just having more things to worry about. Right know I'm testing as mentioned earlier this army : Khelibron - Morathi (Mindrazor), Slaughter Queen on Cauldron (General, Amulet of Dark Fire, Martyrs Sacrifice), Hag Queen (Sacrament of Blood), 30 Witch Elves(knives), 10 Witch Elves(bucklers), 10 SoS (knives), 10 Doomfire Warlocks (Withering), 2x10 Heartrenders.  Yet to play DoT (I will play two games back to back in a week) but with so many units that need to be taken care of (Morathi, Doomfires, Cauldron) even DoT will have tough time to clear that up and I could easily win with double turn. As it's hard to drop up to less then 3-4 drops (I could go less Heartrenders and use Slaughter Troupe to drop to 3 drops to match 3-drop Changehost builds) 

 

[Hulksmash]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

All those 4 drops combos are quite risky and against some top tier armies like Clown Car, Changehost, Kroak are toasted. 

@Hulksmash list looks cool but as Burf mentioned a little hard to reliably pull it off. Also any one drop army will usually crush you if it has any kind of shooting magic. It would struggle against armies mentioned above but also against Gnarlroot and Dreadwood Sylvaneth lists.  Also againt for example Clow Car you don't have anyc comeback tools (like Morathi who even at 6 wounds is scary for KO and they often go for double turn so you can have 12W Morathi on).  I don't know how competitive you wanna go with it isn't very comeptitve against Clown Car, Changehost, Kroak, Sylvaneth.  As it's just to easy to blast your general away (whole combo goes down) or some SCE units (whole idea upon which army is build goes down). 

Also maybe it's just me but lists that rely on strongly on some spells etc (unless it's DoT which has a lot of spells) and having consistently certain units in certain ranges aren't reliabe enough, because in AoS a lot of can go wrong (like double turns) and you're just having more things to worry about. Right know I'm testing as mentioned earlier this army : Khelibron - Morathi (Mindrazor), Slaughter Queen on Cauldron (General, Amulet of Dark Fire, Martyrs Sacrifice), Hag Queen (Sacrament of Blood), 30 Witch Elves(knives), 10 Witch Elves(bucklers), 10 SoS (knives), 10 Doomfire Warlocks (Withering), 2x10 Heartrenders.  Yet to play DoT (I will play two games back to back in a week) but with so many units that need to be taken care of (Morathi, Doomfires, Cauldron) even DoT will have tough time to clear that up and I could easily win with double turn. As it's hard to drop up to less then 3-4 drops (I could go less Heartrenders and use Slaughter Troupe to drop to 3 drops to match 3-drop Changehost builds) 

 

I feel like your answer to this is complex is hard. Which isn't really the case. I might end up swapping the general slot over to the witch brew hag as she's the shortest and easiest to hide but unless you play with zero terrain I'm confused how any character, outside of possibly a medusa, gets nuked on T1. And armies have to be careful about taking turn 1 and risking a double turn on them. Are there a lot of moving parts? Yeah. Do all those moving parts have to keep moving to win? Nope. I see it as more of a toolbox list. I don't see the problem with Changehost, Kroak or Sylvaneth but I also don't know what a Clown Car is (short hand really should at least indicate the build like Changehost, Gnarlwood etc).  The distance to pull off turn 1 charges is a valid concern. But realistically I can have my priest be 24" away from the front line of where I deploy my troops (9" from you) and only string 12 of the 30 out (less if I don't spread them out over a large area and am actually 2 deep). With 3-4 making it back into effect charge range after the free move. There aren't a lot of units that can take 84+ attacks that reroll wounds, hit on 3's, at rend 1. Worse if you also have brave 6 or less.  Still interested in seeing how things evolve with yours Dante as I'm not a fan of Morathi but I'm eager to see how she shakes out.

 

Side question to pretty much everyone. If I take the Shadow Compact battalion (Mixed DoK and SE). I know the SE get the DoK allegiance. Now the question as the temples state that all units in units in the army become from that temple. And then the temple special abilities aren't keyword based but instead just require them to be temple units. So would the SE benefit from things like the -1 shooting and the ability to teleport them up the field? I don't see why not and the list isn't designed around it but it's something I saw last night reading and couldn't find why it wouldn't. Thanks

 

[DantePQ]

@Hulksmash Really you do not see a problem with Changehost ??!

 Change hosty can use Changeling in first turn to have a sure shot at Slaughter Queen/Hag Queen and kill all important pieces with ease (like SCE units), Clown- Car is Kharadrons two drop alpha strike that will with ease kill all SCE units and your 5W heroes(and as they can hide whole army in reserve they will give you first turn with you having nothing to do), Dreadwood could do the same (kill SCE and/or heroes or destroy both units of witches with ease)  or limit your abilities to 12''. With Morathi and Cauldron with 4++ against mortal wounds from spells I'm to sure I can contain Changehost, as he can screen you to death as well (especially build with huge Tzaangors block). Also Changehost has 27'' unbid range with Destiny Dice so you won't get of any spells you need to cast. 

[Hulksmash]

30 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@Hulksmash Really you do not see a problem with Changehost ??!

 Change hosty can use Changeling in first turn to have a sure shot at Slaughter Queen/Hag Queen and kill all important pieces with ease (like SCE units), Clown- Car is Kharadrons two drop alpha strike that will with ease kill all SCE units and your 5W heroes(and as they can hide whole army in reserve they will give you first turn with you having nothing to do), Dreadwood could do the same (kill SCE and/or heroes or destroy both units of witches with ease)  or limit your abilities to 12''. With Morathi and Cauldron with 4++ against mortal wounds from spells I'm to sure I can contain Changehost, as he can screen you to death as well (especially build with huge Tzaangors block).

I really don't but to each their own. I think we've had different experiences against those types of lists and based on your responses we tend to play on very different tables. Naturally it plays differently based on different set-ups/events. I research those ahead of time to see which of my armies I'm most likely to bring or how to adjust to things like a lack of los blocking terrain. Terrain has evolved like that in our area because of lists like the ones you mention. 

[DantePQ]

@Hulksmash Definitely we tend to play on very different tables as Changehost is usally dominating majority of builds and tourneys (unless army is build specifically to counter it) apart from Clown-Car which is quite popular competitve build and one Gary Percical is crushing tournaments scene in UK with - which could be a nightmare for your army ;). (list you didn't know exist ;)) 

That's why Changehost in the hand of good player is such a great all-around build unless you're able to punish him with first turn your army could be severely crippled and with Changeling no matter how many terrain there is he will have enough targets to for example anihilate SCE part of an army with ease (if you really can hide your heroes). 

But if all top-tier competitve builds are not a problem for you I guess you know better   

[Twitch of Izalith]

@Hulksmash just be thankful if you dont know what a clown car is - its not fun to play against. Its the Barak Ziflin build where most of the army goes in an Ironclad and all the Endrinriggers and the other balloon guys hang on the outside. They can deepstrike 9" away and then hit you with lots of high quality shooting and combat troops.

You need to be able to create a deep deployment to screen your key models if they take first turn or control a large anount of board space to dictate where they can drop if they give it to you.

Tends to be a swingy game where they either kill most of your army and leave you with not much to respond with or they fluff their first turn and you murder them. I've not played it with DoK yet but played a few games against it with Khorne and Darkling Covens.

You are right to build your list to suit your local meta - @DantePQ 's advice looks good to me but I think he is playing against some quite hardcore lists so it might not come up for you. 

I won't have my Khinerai and Melusai until next weekend so I haven't even written a full list yet! I can never be bothered to do it until i'm actually going to play a game. I will definitely have 2 10's of Blood sisters and 2 10's of Heartrenders  but I think Blood stalkers have an important battlefield role that DoK didn't have access to before - they can look after backfield objectives and actualy dish out some damage while they are doing it. 

Also trying to find a use for the Lifetakers which initially didn't look that great without Mindrazor to support but I think their is some mileage in the fight and flight rule - particularly if you charge them at units that are already in combat - which you than have a chance to dodge out of before you get hit.

Can't wait to try a Temple Nest build - that mortal wound rebound on hit rolls of 1 is gonna be immense sometimes. Not going full snake though. I think units bigger than 10 are going to be hard to use on 40mm bases.

10 doomfire warlocks looks awesome now! its quite a chunk of points but worth all of them I think.

Blown away by the number of strong builds in this book! particularly after having no choice at all for the last year! Its a great thought knowing that all my witch elves and sisters of slaughter are already painted 

Hopefully at least one Morathi model  will get prepped and built tonight 

[DantePQ]

Even worse Clown-Car usually just set up almost everything in reserve (bar one unit of Arkonauts) and then goes for double turn where they just win a game unless they are playing against a horde. 

But some DoK builds should do great against Clown Car as Mortahi will be a nightmare for them (no matter if the go 1st turn or go for double turn), Heartrenders (like 15-20) and blocks of witches with many attacks and -1 to hit. Also they would be somehow forced to go first without double turn (and then double turn will kill them) as you could set up prayers/spells. 

Ok I will be playing SCE and Nurlge (build that finished 7th in LasVegas Open - Glotkin, Skavens, etc) this week, then hopefully two games against Tzeentch and two against LoN next week  Will keep you posted how it went and how Doomfire Warlocks perform. 

[Hulksmash]

13 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@Hulksmash Definitely we tend to play on very different tables as Changehost is usally dominating majority of builds and tourneys (unless army is build specifically to counter it) apart from Clown-Car which is quite popular competitve build and one Gary Percical is crushing tournaments scene in UK with - which could be a nightmare for your army ;). (list you didn't know exist ;)) 

That's why Changehost in the hand of good player is such a great all-around build unless you're able to punish him with first turn your army could be severely crippled and with Changeling no matter how many terrain there is he will have enough targets to for example anihilate SCE part of an army with ease (if you really can hide your heroes). 

But if all top-tier competitve builds are not a problem for you I guess you know better   

That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm merely pointing out that your answers seem to be based on limited or no LoS blocking terrain. If that's not the case then we've had some different experiences. As for the "Clown-car" it was the terminology I wasn't familiar with, not the army itself. You have to take that into account like you do skaven and fyreslayers. What I've seen of it hasn't shown itself to be particularly brutal with proper screening (which is one of my reasons for minimal wounds/numbers). It's not that they aren't a problem it's just I feel the list has multiple fail safes in it including if one of those characters goes down or spells don't go off.  While most of local isn't insanely cutthroat we have a few guys that are and that do well nationally. I've switched over to AoS as my primary tournament game from 40k this year so I expect I'll be seeing more cutthroat than normal but also know from running high in 40k for 4 editions that list building only takes you so far. 

Regardless though I see several fun ideas for this army which is awesome compared to my poor Kharadron with their mono-build and my poor FEC. 

[Malakithe]

Yeah that 27" unbind will be bad. Also now with Death on the rise if any caster are within 18" of Arkhan or Nagash you wont get spells off. Period. Not even Morathi can out cast them but she has the range at least.

Im looking at going Temple Nest or Shadow Patrol...any list ideas for those?

[Keldaur]

Puff, now that I have the book i am really baffled. There are so many options to go for... By the way, if you are looking for a 1drop Khailebron is probably the best at doing it with a full snakes list.  Draichi Ganeth can also do it, but it is really freaking aggro horde (2x30 SoS, 2x30 Aelf witches, 2x10 Heartrenders + Slaughterpriest cauldron + battalion are 1870 points already, for a batallion that gets +1 to hit when they charge, and can retreat and charge at will is pretty good, probably 2 extra hag queens for to wound rerolls should be fine, yeah no good way to deal with the stardrake without those blood sisters tho... but you can retreat every combat from it so it should get 5 combat phases).

The list is not optimized tho. 

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion 
- Artefact: Thousand and One Dark Blessings 
- Lore of Shadows: Shroud of Despair
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline (Bloodwrack Medusa General)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline (Bloodwrack Medusa General)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline (Bloodwrack Medusa General)

Units
10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
10 x Blood Stalkers (320)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 126
 

Too bad morathi doesn't have the snake tag ... ;p

[DantePQ]

I will try out Blood Sisters some more but so far I wasn't impressed. 

Also I don't know how much you need that 1drop I guess unless you're playing an army that needs to -  like some kind of alpha strike or army build around sniping out crucial heroes/units it's not that important. 

As for now I will try out to play without Battalions etc but maybe will have to cut down number of drops down to 3-4 it all comes down to that stupid Changehost

[Richelieu]

Finished my Aelf form Morathi last night! 

[Lucentia]

I'm working on snake Morathi myself, I was hoping to be able to keep her body and the pillar base element separate for ease of painting, but it looks like her gown gets in the way of doing that as far as I can tell, ah well.

[Richelieu]

1 minute ago, Lucentia said:

I'm working on snake Morathi myself, I was hoping to be able to keep her body and the pillar base element separate for ease of painting, but it looks like her gown gets in the way of doing that as far as I can tell, ah well.

Yeah I was worried about that.  I've got so much I need to build.  I was hoping to get it built and painted for a GT on June 1, but I think I may have to take Stormcast.  Don't want to rush painting this army.

[Gecktron]

I finally got the Battletome myself and brought a Blood Coven box. And I must say, the Tome did a great job giving me motivation for this project.
I immediately started thinking about a color scheme and an army concept.
 

This is my first Sister of Slaughter. I want to go for a brighter color scheme than the ones in the Battletome. I was inspired by the greek aesthetic of the first Daughters of Khaine teaser.
My army represents the cult of faceless slaughter. They hail from the coast of the sea of monsters in Ghur. They worship Khaine in his aspect of the sudden arrow in the back, the unseen blade, the anonymity of the battlefield.  
I want to have all my units wear masks (Sisters of Slaughter instead of Witch Aelfs, Doomfire Warlocks, Heartrenders, Blood Sisters).

My planned 1000 points list:

Temple: Khailebron

Bloodwrack Shrine - 220
Blood Sisters - 140
Blood Sisters - 140
Blood Stalkers - 160
Blood Stalkers - 160
Temple Nest - 80
Heartrenders 80

980/1000

[Freejack02]

8 hours ago, DantePQ said:

But some DoK builds should do great against Clown Car as Mortahi will be a nightmare for them (no matter if the go 1st turn or go for double turn)

I just want to point out that getting double-turned by a deep deployment alpha-strike list is one of the only ways Morathi can be killed without impacting the game. 3 damage in each turn (without a hero phase to transform) means she's done. It won't be an easy feat for the opponent with the likely debuffs against their shooting/hit, but it's still an uncomfortable scenario for the DoK player. 

[Malakithe]

How about this? Not sure if this would work well. Havent figured out items/spells/prayers yet

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Leaders
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood(300)
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)

Units
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

46 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

How about this? Not sure if this would work well. Havent figured out items/spells/prayers yet

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron
Leaders
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood(300)
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)

Units
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

I love Blood Sisters and Cauldron, along with a hag queen to allow more prayers.  This seems like a nice setup, but I personally prefer being able to cast > 1 spell in any list that I look at running.  Dropping Hag Queen + 5 Khinerai will allow a Medusae to be added (and is also allowed to be added to the battalion drop), reducing your total drops to 3 from 4, and giving another spell.  You DEFINITELY want Mindrazor up on something at all times, and a well-placed Mystic Shield will also get some more longevity out of your Blood sisters or shrine, giving them a +3 save if near cauldron.  The Catechism prayer on your Bloodsisters will multiply their attacks on natural 6s, and just give the Shrine the Khainite Pendant for the 3 prayers ability so that they are able to animate their Avatar or buff as well.  The Khailebron Command Trait on your Bloodwrack Shrine will help you deepstrike some Blood Sisters, with Heartrender and Blood Stalker ranged support into their weak points. 

This is what I would run if you were looking to run a list of this type:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Shroud of Despair
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Artefact: Khainite Pendant 
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

You'll gain access to another spell, maximize your prayers, and have a long line of 20 Sisters that you can buff up and then teleport downfield towards the enemy, or teleport a unit of 5 along with the Khinerai deepstrike anywhere outside of 9" of the enemy.  I like this list... not sure how "optimal" it is, but it has all of the crazy fun tricks that can punish the enemy and murder stupid ****** like wizards and skyfires if the enemy isn't careful.  The -1 to hit vs. shooting is just icing on the cake.  I'm looking forward to double-gazing a horde of skeletons to death.

 

[Malakithe]

5 minutes ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

I love Blood Sisters and Cauldron, along with a hag queen to allow more prayers.  This seems like a nice setup, but I personally prefer being able to cast > 1 spell in any list that I look at running.  Dropping Hag Queen + 5 Khinerai will allow a Medusae to be added (and is also allowed to be added to the battalion drop), reducing your total drops to 3 from 4, and giving another spell.  You DEFINITELY want Mindrazor up on something at all times, and a well-placed Mystic Shield will also get some more longevity out of your Blood sisters or shrine, giving them a +3 save if near cauldron.  The Catechism prayer on your Bloodsisters will multiply their attacks on natural 6s, and just give the Shrine the Khainite Pendant for the 3 prayers ability so that they are able to animate their Avatar or buff as well.  The Khailebron Command Trait on your Bloodwrack Shrine will help you deepstrike some Blood Sisters, with Heartrender and Blood Stalker ranged support into their weak points. 

This is what I would run if you were looking to run a list of this type:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- Lore of Shadows: Shroud of Despair
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Artefact: Khainite Pendant 
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Sisters (140)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122

You'll gain access to another spell, maximize your prayers, and have a long line of 20 Sisters that you can buff up and then teleport downfield towards the enemy, or teleport a unit of 5 along with the Khinerai deepstrike anywhere outside of 9" of the enemy.  I like this list... not sure how "optimal" it is, but it has all of the crazy fun tricks that can punish the enemy and murder stupid ****** like wizards and skyfires if the enemy isn't careful.  The -1 to hit vs. shooting is just icing on the cake.  I'm looking forward to double-gazing a horde of skeletons to death.

 

I wanted to avoid a block of 20 Blood Sisters due to them looking like a nice target to focus fire on but overall its probaby a better list set up

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

Just now, Malakithe said:

I wanted to avoid a block of 20 Blood Sisters due to them looking like a nice target to focus fire on but overall its probaby a better list set up

Right, I mean you'd be leaving so many points off of the field, but on the other hand, it also forces the enemy to deal with them.  Also, with full buffs up on them, it can be difficult to whittle them down (unless they throttle a ton of mortal wounds at them).  In an objective based game, their bases are large and you can just pile them onto an objective very quickly with the Command Trait, and you want them to be very defensible, since you are trying to get them into melee for their scary output.  With Mindrazor, that's 60 glaive attacks -2 rend 2dmg, and 20 touch attacks (of course not all will be in range).  With a 3+ save fully buffed and -1 to hit in ranged... phew, you'll see some crazy stuff, especially if you throw the Withering on an enemy to buff your hits.  

In all honesty, a unit of 5 is dangerous enough, considering you won't get too many more than 5 in range to attack anyways, and you may see the enemy ignoring the 2 x 5.

[Richelieu]

11 hours ago, DantePQ said:

@Hulksmash Really you do not see a problem with Changehost ??!

 Change hosty can use Changeling in first turn to have a sure shot at Slaughter Queen/Hag Queen and kill all important pieces with ease (like SCE units), Clown- Car is Kharadrons two drop alpha strike that will with ease kill all SCE units and your 5W heroes(and as they can hide whole army in reserve they will give you first turn with you having nothing to do), Dreadwood could do the same (kill SCE and/or heroes or destroy both units of witches with ease)  or limit your abilities to 12''. With Morathi and Cauldron with 4++ against mortal wounds from spells I'm to sure I can contain Changehost, as he can screen you to death as well (especially build with huge Tzaangors block). Also Changehost has 27'' unbid range with Destiny Dice so you won't get of any spells you need to cast. 

I will take the trade of slaughter queen for Lord of change.  The swap isn't nearly as strong as it once was since it has to be at the beginning of the hero phase now.