Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[WoollyMammoth]

I've been dancing around playing dark elves for years, always loved the models. I think its time for me to finally get officially invested.

Current Rules
They said they were going to be changing a lot of the rules, so current rules are only a slight indicator of what is to come.

Witches are like ghouls except almost better in every way except lacking a save. I think they will get a save like what they did with Bloodreavers. Ghouls really shine with the 5++ spell from a GKoT, which presumably is what they will have near a shrine. 5++ is just about a par save and the best you could ask for. Its not good versus mass horde attacks but its going to be great versus small elite damage like mortals. In regards to getting hit with hordes, if you are playing well you are charging and attacking first, and whatever horde you are up against should not do well after 90 re-rolling attacks. This army is not about resiliency - you need to be attacking first. This kind of save is only really bad versus mass shooting like Kharadron or Kunnin Rukk, and there may be other things in the army to protect against this.

Sisters of Slaughter are amazing and I have no idea why people aren't using them. They are pricey but totally good with the discount. Mystic Shielded they are 3+ and half of every save they make turns into mortal wounds. Some lists work really hard for this (Sisters of the Thorn and Dryads for example) but this is like built into the scroll. You could take 10 of these and run them into a horde and let the horde kill itself. As per the pic above we are getting a lot of options for them - probably deciding between the whip for 2", daggers for re-rolls, and the shield for reflecting wounds. Notice a lot more pics of the SoS than Witch Elves, even in the post today
" You’ll want to use these warriors to deal with your enemy’s heavily armoured units while your Sisters of Slaughter deal with the rest of their infantry."
Seems like they are pushing SoS over Witches for some reason.

New Rules
The allegiance is great. army wide 6++ is useful, especially on resilient units like Morathi. This is likely buffed by a shrine, possibly to everyone now, which could be amazing. 

The BLOOD RITES is great. The army is one which dies easily, but if you manage to survive you get buff after buff.  It starts on par with a normal game flow - re-roll 1 to run, then charge. This will work out great if you get a double turn. The 1s to hit, wound and then save/battleshock at the end. But, what if you manage to delay the first turn? simply sit in the back and forefit? If this dosent hurt you on objectives, you now potentially re-roll 1s to run and charge at first, quickly moving into hit and wound rolls for the key turns of the game. Its very interesting stuff. As for the overlap (ex. witches already reroll 1s) I don't see it as an issue - you may need to reroll in turn 1 and 2 when the Blood Rites have not caught up yet, for example. Otherwise, they could change it, maybe make it stack to improve rather than overlap (re-roll 1s and 2s for example) 

Morathi is awesome, as someone who would spend many hours painting the model to perfection, I love not losing it in turn 1-2. The thing to do would seem to hide her in the back with two shooting units double tapping every turn, which we now know has mortal wounds. A "come at me bro" style works on par with the ever-growing blood rites .. your opponent has to come to you, and by the time they do they have to contest with a blood fueled melee army, which may be piling in twice. 

Morathi's command seems to take from the shrine - instead of one unit you now have potential for two units. 

I don't like the "if you have a certain general these become battleline" concept. This promotes bringing Morathi but then having a lame Medusa be your general just so you can fill your battleline tax. Hopefully the rule is Morathi makes Blood Sisters batteline, and not some lame general you would never use over better options. 

There way too much up in the air to speculate anything, but even if their rules are terrible I'm still getting very invested in this army, because the models are insanely good.

On 2/20/2018 at 6:27 AM, Redbaron said:

I'm actually in favour of GW toning down the 'stripperific' quality that the witch aelves used to have. There's a time and a place for big hair, and chainmail bikinis - and it's called the 1980s. ?

This army is specifically for those looking for an army of elves in chainmail bikinis. If you don't want that, then this is not the army for you. This is a fantasy army, and not many people have a fantasy women in several layers of thick clothing and armor. If there was a female Fyreslayer, now that would be truly inappropriate. 

This is not particualrly 80's. Which photo does this release remind you more of? 1980s hair or the classic dark elf look?

 

On 2/20/2018 at 5:31 AM, Twitch of Izalith said:

Slightly annoyed to see that political correctness has had an influence on the sculpt and we have firmly entered the age of the mono-boob with GW's new female figures. I'not bothered one way or the other if female characters are overtly sexual or tastefully dressed but no actual woman - particularly not one as vain as Morathi - would go out with her chest looking that way! Weaponised sexuality is what this character does - its a bit tragic to see her depicted making basic fashion mistakes.

Just google "dress" and you'll see hundreds of thousands of this so called 'mono-boob' look which is simply anything that is not 'low cut' showing cleavage. I'm going to go ahead and guess that you are not on the forefront of modern fashion and you are simply annoyed they didn't bring back her topless look from WHFB. 

Her dress is highly decorated with gold and jewels to portray her vanity. The open-midriff / open-shoulder (and likely backless) dress portrays her sexuality, along with her long hair ( longer hair is a symbol of femininity, and hers being so long is a portrayal of her extreme femininity)

The model is absolutely gorgeous, possibly the most epic unmounted hero in all of AoS. There is no need to nit pick at how it could be better - and if you think so, get out your hobby knife and green stuff and improve the model yourself.
 

On 2/20/2018 at 1:28 PM, Richelieu said:

Not so.  You can only allocate 3 wounds to her each turn.  So, if 3 wounds are allocated each one will trigger the 6++.  On a success, the wound is not suffered, but it has still been allocated and so further wounds may not be allocated.

Awesome Observation. Legally this is how she would be played, which is interesting. This helps to counterbalance two combats per turn. 
 

On 2/20/2018 at 4:02 PM, Richelieu said:

As an aside, this rule is nowhere near as egregious as the interaction of Nagash, deathless minions, his mortal wound save, his battalion redirect and the Morghast Archai mortal wound save, all of which occur when a mortal wound is allocated.

Yeah and you can pull it off for a mere 1180 points! There is not really any other way to do it where 1180 points for 28 wounds is justified.

[Richelieu]

2 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

Yeah and you can pull it off for a mere 1180 points! There is not really any other way to do it where 1180 points for 28 wounds is justified.

For sure, I am a firm believer that a huge points investment should produce cool and effective models and rules.   I was more commenting on the craziness of a rules interaction where so many things happen simultaneously.  

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

4 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I've been dancing around playing dark elves for years, always loved the models. I think its time for me to finally get officially invested.

Current Rules
They said they were going to be changing a lot of the rules, so current rules are only a slight indicator of what is to come.

Witches are like ghouls except almost better in every way except lacking a save. I think they will get a save like what they did with Bloodreavers. Ghouls really shine with the 5++ spell from a GKoT, which presumably is what they will have near a shrine. 5++ is just about a par save and the best you could ask for. Its not good versus mass horde attacks but its going to be great versus small elite damage like mortals. In regards to getting hit with hordes, if you are playing well you are charging and attacking first, and whatever horde you are up against should not do well after 90 re-rolling attacks. This army is not about resiliency - you need to be attacking first. This kind of save is only really bad versus mass shooting like Kharadron or Kunnin Rukk, and there may be other things in the army to protect against this.

Sisters of Slaughter are amazing and I have no idea why people aren't using them. They are pricey but totally good with the discount. Mystic Shielded they are 3+ and half of every save they make turns into mortal wounds. Some lists work really hard for this (Sisters of the Thorn and Dryads for example) but this is like built into the scroll. You could take 10 of these and run them into a horde and let the horde kill itself. As per the pic above we are getting a lot of options for them - probably deciding between the whip for 2", daggers for re-rolls, and the shield for reflecting wounds. Notice a lot more pics of the SoS than Witch Elves, even in the post today
" You’ll want to use these warriors to deal with your enemy’s heavily armoured units while your Sisters of Slaughter deal with the rest of their infantry."
Seems like they are pushing SoS over Witches for some reason.

New Rules
The allegiance is great. army wide 6++ is useful, especially on resilient units like Morathi. This is likely buffed by a shrine, possibly to everyone now, which could be amazing. 

The BLOOD RITES is great. The army is one which dies easily, but if you manage to survive you get buff after buff.  It starts on par with a normal game flow - re-roll 1 to run, then charge. This will work out great if you get a double turn. The 1s to hit, wound and then save/battleshock at the end. But, what if you manage to delay the first turn? simply sit in the back and forefit? If this dosent hurt you on objectives, you now potentially re-roll 1s to run and charge at first, quickly moving into hit and wound rolls for the key turns of the game. Its very interesting stuff. As for the overlap (ex. witches already reroll 1s) I don't see it as an issue - you may need to reroll in turn 1 and 2 when the Blood Rites have not caught up yet, for example. Otherwise, they could change it, maybe make it stack to improve rather than overlap (re-roll 1s and 2s for example) 

Morathi is awesome, as someone who would spend many hours painting the model to perfection, I love not losing it in turn 1-2. The thing to do would seem to hide her in the back with two shooting units double tapping every turn, which we now know has mortal wounds. A "come at me bro" style works on par with the ever-growing blood rites .. your opponent has to come to you, and by the time they do they have to contest with a blood fueled melee army, which may be piling in twice. 

Morathi's command seems to take from the shrine - instead of one unit you now have potential for two units. 

I don't like the "if you have a certain general these become battleline" concept. This promotes bringing Morathi but then having a lame Medusa be your general just so you can fill your battleline tax. Hopefully the rule is Morathi makes Blood Sisters batteline, and not some lame general you would never use over better options. 

There way too much up in the air to speculate anything, but even if their rules are terrible I'm still getting very invested in this army, because the models are insanely good.

This army is specifically for those looking for an army of elves in chainmail bikinis. If you don't want that, then this is not the army for you. This is a fantasy army, and not many people have a fantasy women in several layers of thick clothing and armor. If there was a female Fyreslayer, now that would be truly inappropriate. 

This is not particualrly 80's. Which photo does this release remind you more of? 1980s hair or the classic dark elf look?

 

Just google "dress" and you'll see hundreds of thousands of this so called 'mono-boob' look which is simply anything that is not 'low cut' showing cleavage. I'm going to go ahead and guess that you are not on the forefront of modern fashion and you are simply annoyed they didn't bring back her topless look from WHFB. 

Her dress is highly decorated with gold and jewels to portray her vanity. The open-midriff / open-shoulder (and likely backless) dress portrays her sexuality, along with her long hair ( longer hair is a symbol of femininity, and hers being so long is a portrayal of her extreme femininity)

The model is absolutely gorgeous, possibly the most epic unmounted hero in all of AoS. There is no need to nit pick at how it could be better - and if you think so, get out your hobby knife and green stuff and improve the model yourself.
 

Awesome Observation. Legally this is how she would be played, which is interesting. This helps to counterbalance two combats per turn. 
 

Yeah and you can pull it off for a mere 1180 points! There is not really any other way to do it where 1180 points for 28 wounds is justified.

People weren't using SoS because you could stack the 5++ cauldron saves on WEs, which were cheaper and had arguably better output with buffs.  SoS need to be hit in the combat phase to trigger the bladed buckler effect, which was diminished with rend.  With the Bloodshield nerf, I can see SoS being more viable again, with their normal save, the Bloodshield 6+ and the Fanatical Faith 6+... I can see this in the same vein as Fyreslayers, but with better mortal wound output and more reliable ranged options.  Something tells me that this will be the new FotM army, but also being ignored due to the female aspect of it.  

[WoollyMammoth]

2 hours ago, Black_Fortress_Immortal said:

People weren't using SoS because you could stack the 5++ cauldron saves on WEs, which were cheaper and had arguably better output with buffs.  SoS need to be hit in the combat phase to trigger the bladed buckler effect, which was diminished with rend.  With the Bloodshield nerf, I can see SoS being more viable again, with their normal save, the Bloodshield 6+ and the Fanatical Faith 6+... I can see this in the same vein as Fyreslayers, but with better mortal wound output and more reliable ranged options.  Something tells me that this will be the new FotM army, but also being ignored due to the female aspect of it.  

What is a FotM?

[Lightbox]

1 hour ago, WoollyMammoth said:

What is a FotM?

Presume it's 'flavour of the month' aka an army that's really strong on release to promote people to get it. Similar things are done with Moba champions where they really strong on release and then subsequently get nerfed down to reasonable levels.

 

Though I doubt DoK will be super strong from what we've seen so far tbh, though regardless of strength just like someone else said earlier I too will be buying them because they look awesome.

[DantePQ]

I just hope Battletome is as good as Death or Nurgle, I don't want another DoT. For example not a Chaos player but I love how fluffy Nurgle BT is and how it plays the same with Deah. 

And still there are some combos coming up :

- elite army with BT melee snake ladies

- Morathi surrounded by two units of shooting snake ladies could be ace. 

Both of them will hugely benefit from hit-and-run tactic to get those re-rolls of 1. 

Also Blood Rites re-roll of 1 charge rolls is huge armywide if DoK get some kind of ability to close on the enemy fast .  

[Redbaron]

@WoollyMammoth you are correct that witch elves are a definite 'look' for the army, and by no means a bad one. I just meant that a) it's good they get updated, and b) that the faction seems to offer much more alongside them. They've already evolved from the 'heavy metal' look I remember from the past, into the current 'gymnast coming to acrobatically kill you' style of now. Plus, the addition of new serpent-themed stuff alongside them is an interesting new development. 

In short: change is good and natural. I'm super keen to see the battletome and learn what else there is!

[DantePQ]

New preivew

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/02/22/daughters-of-khaine-preview-part-4-the-khineraigw-homepage-post-3/

[Dead_Ghost]

Hmmm. sparse preview, but from the looks of it, the ranged heartrenders look pretty nice, particularly that nice -2 rend on the turn they drop!

[TalesOfSigmar]

Ok Heartrenders should awesome for proper hit and run tactics. Think they'll be some proper shenanigans to be had with them.

Who knows there might even be a batallion which makes it even better

 

[Richelieu]

The ability to deepstrike without making a roll is extremely powerful.  I hope these units are smaller and in the 100 point range so that I can just keep a couple units in the air to force the opponent to leave units behind to defend any objectives they have.  A single, squishy, 5 wound hero left behind to guard objectives won't cut it against the -2 rend javelins, especially since there is then a 50/50 shot of moving 6" closer after you shoot, all but guaranteeing a successful charge.

[DantePQ]

It depends how many attacks they have 6'' move on 4+ isn't something mindblowing, could be good. Also They should have 10-12'' shooting range so it's possible to drop them and fire at something. 

Anyway they are awesome tactical tool for sure, ability to set the up to clear heores,small units or even drop them, shoot them and then move on objective with extra move on 4+. Love their potential. 

Combat option is quite weak in comparison

[kenshin620]

"Thats a nice necromancer you have hiding behind a wall of skeletons. Be a shame if someone popped right behind them and shot -2 rend Javelins! "

[TalesOfSigmar]

3 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Combat option is quite weak in comparison

To be fair you have no idea what their combat profile is. If they've got a couple of attacks that's already say -2 rend and 2 damage (just plucking stuff out the air here) then making them 3 Damage on Charge is awesome.

 

[DantePQ]

5 minutes ago, TalesOfSigmar said:

To be fair you have no idea what their combat profile is. If they've got a couple of attacks that's already say -2 rend and 2 damage (just plucking stuff out the air here) then making them 3 Damage on Charge is awesome.

 

 

Sure, I just compared them for that they are now  

Also they could have some kind of charge bonus like +1/+2 in a turn they are set up, that combined with re-rolls of 1 when charging from turn 2 would be great. 

[Lucentia]

Yeah,  I was definitely expecting the winged elves to be air-droppable, a lack of deployment options was also was also something lacking in the old DoK lists.  Looks like they're also probably in units of five, good to hold back and drop down to steal objectives and pick off weaker characters.

Interesting that they get the SoS-like shields but have no mention of them in the preview, I wonder if that will have the same effect as on SoS,  or something different?

[Payce]

8 hours ago, Lightbox said:

Though I doubt DoK will be super strong from what we've seen so far tbh, though regardless of strength just like someone else said earlier I too will be buying them because they look awesome.

Good to know I'm not the only one feeling this.

First and foremost, allegiance. It's very obvious that we're being made out to be a late-game army, which kind of doesn't sit well with me. DoK are fast, we're fragile and weak, we're a glass cannon. To be at our very best once the cannon is shot seems... kind of counter-productive? Getting a Deathless Minions helps, certainly, and it being army-wide and not tied to hero proximity is a godsend (I hope, pray and beg that Cauldrons or Shrines will somehow increase the effectivity of this, though it seems unlikely), but I still wonder if it's enough.

My thoughts of shapechanging Morathi is well-documented elsewhere (suffice to say, I think it looks like an absolutely terrible design decision), and the fact that her command ability is in "foot-form" only makes me cringe. The model is very definitely be in the 500+ points ballpark, and when you look at her profile and the potential damage output compared to say, a 400 point Durthu, she looks terribly underwhelming. I can see if the transformation fully "recharges" her wounds to 12 that she might be a late-game beast (keep "foot-form for 3 or so turns, use the command ability to maximize damage from your snake archers turn one, Witches turn two and three) that can change into super-saiyan in turn four and clean table, however, we all know how vulnerable everything is to sniping in this game. Morathi has potential, but depending on her points cost and full warscroll, she might well be underwhelming. The preview did little to ease concerns.

The snake-ladies looks... well. Awesome models, again a very underwhelming preview. The picture suggests they come in increments of five (like Judicators) rather than three (Skyfires, Kurnoths), and the rules suggest they will be more like Judies when it comes to combat (yes, I'm focussing more on the archers here). If they have even two shots each, MWs on a 6 is basically a mortal wound and a half in a round of shooting - hardly impressive. That it's also limited to the shooting face is a blow (no synergy with Morathi here), making the archer snakes look by far like the lesser valuable option of the two. Similarly, the melee option seems to be a case where they have a glaive AND a crystal touch, suggesting only five rolls to hit for the MW - again, not a reliable source on 6's.

Harpie-girls, however, looks amazing. And particularly, the shooties. Their deep strike-and-rend is midbogglingly good, but what really strikes me is the 50% chance to fully redeploy afterwards. I'll be excited to see if there are any ways to tactically improve this, or if there's any synergy with command traits, artifacts and command abilities. Speaking of which, I'll be very excited to see what non-Morathi Hero choice we have. How the new Cauldron looks, if Hellebron on foot (who's appeared in a few pictures) is just a Hag with a sword or a whole new warscroll, if the Medusae are indeed heroes now, how the Avatar works. It seems clear that we won't get any new Hero models outside of Morathi, but seeing what they do with the existing range of models (and if the Sorceress, who's figure does exist and fit in well with the DoK aestetic, makes an appearance).

All in all, the previews leaves me disappointed and fearing we'll be pretty far off the competitive top tier, but hopefully we'll find a niche spot in the meta.

[Richelieu]

I just did the math for the reroll 1's on charges Blood Rite.  So normally there is a 10/36 or 27.77~% probability you will succeed on a 9" charge.  The problem of rerolling 1's on either of those dice is a bit tricky. First you have to calculate the probability of rolling at least one 1, which is 11/36, but then, you have to calculate the odds of a success on a reroll for each of those 11 permutations and add that to the probability of the initial success. 

So you get this:

Probability of Initial Success + (probability of a failure that triggers a reroll*probability of success after the reroll)

Which breaks down into:

P = 30/108 +

p(1,1) = 1/36 * 10/36 = 0.83/108

p(1,2) or (2,1) = 1/18 * 0  = 0 +

p(1,3) or (3,1) = 1/18 * 1/6 = 1/108 +

p(1,4) or (4,1) = 1/18 * 1/3 = 2/108 +

p(1,5) or (5,1) = 1/18 * 1/2 = 3/108 +

p(1,6) or (6,1) = 1/18 * 2/3 =  4/108 = 40.83/108 or....

37.8% probability of a successful 9" charge on turn 2+

 

[Richelieu]

8 minutes ago, Payce said:

All in all, the previews leaves me disappointed and fearing we'll be pretty far off the competitive top tier, but hopefully we'll find a niche spot in the meta.

Majority of people in the Death forum was saying this even days after the LoN battletome was fully leaked.  They are not saying it anymore.

[Payce]

8 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Majority of people in the Death forum was saying this even days after the LoN battletome was fully leaked.  They are not saying it anymore.

Let's give it more than two weeks, and a couple of tournaments - once people learn to handle the new rules and toys, LoN will fall off. I still don't see Death as a top tier army without 1-2 whole new units that aren't just creative rebuilds of existing kits (you'll notice I didn't comment on the daggery SoS in my post earlier either).

[MaxPounder]

I think the snippets look good so far. The tactical advantage of keeping units to the side and dropping them whenever you need is amazing. 

The snakes look underwhelming unless they had three shots each or 2 stares. Nonetheless at the same time we have no idea of what synergies there are and even what their generic stats are. So will hold judgement till  my the whole picture emerges. 

Basically wait till the book drops. I am sure they will have put in some excellent combos judging by how good maggotkin was. 

I for one think I will probably just have an entire army of khenesai and Morathi with maybe a smattering of snakes. Because I love me some awesome models. If they are competitive even better. 

 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I think the blood sisters sound really good depending on what there hit chance is, if it's a 3+ or even a 4+ to get a mortal off that's crazy good. Active them in the hero phase and the combat phase and your looking at 20 mortals maximum from 10 blood sisters! Probably around 10-12 with the reroll 1's to hit on average. 

[WoollyMammoth]

First, keep in mind that the Khinerai are likely an elite unit, maybe 100 points for 5.

Being as how they only have one Javelin in their hands,that is likely 5 shooting attacks for the Heartrenders. Most likely an elite profile, 3+/3+ -1 rend, with the -2 on the first turn. Its possible they have a bag of javelins or something, or they are magical things like Prosecutor hammers, but I doubt it. At face value they sound like this pestering unit that peppers with attacks and avoids combat. Maybe they are only 80 points for 5.

The Lifetakers sound better to me. First off, they have to have rend just to fit into the army ('barbed sickles' sound rendy too).  They most likely have 2 attacks each, possibly even 3, (or an option for 3). When they charge, they get bonus damage, which is most likely 2 instead of 1. So - maybe a cheap unit of 5 dishes out 11 rending attacks @ 2 damage. Probably invest in a unit of 10 for 21  attacks. That sounds very nice. 

@Payce
There are more holes than information at this point, don't be pessimistic, I'm sure the army will be great.

Top-Tier is another thing. Generally these armies are ones which, frankly GW messed up and let things fall through the cracks. Things that are guaranteed to be FAQ'd as soon as they get around to it (or the day after a GT). For example they seemed to have missed the Plaguetouched Warband and the potential of the Harbinger of Decay, which are going to be the key foundation in a lot of Nurgle lists to make them 'top-tier'. We cannot hold out for hope that they are going to miss something major with the tome which propels DoK to 'top tier' but its sure to have a lot of really great stuff. The inclusion of mortal wounding shooting attacks already places it in a good spot, and the fact that it is Order leaves some ally potential.

Death is in a really good place right now. The spells can really manipulate your opponent and slow down the game, the units hit as hard or harder than ever, and mass bodies come back when things are working. It feels like it has the tools to compete at any level, but we will have to wait and see. 

[DantePQ]

I don't understand how those little snippets can lead oo any conclusion how comeptitve DoK will be? Without stats, points, leaders, spells etc? 

And even then some quite powerful builds are easy to be seen 

Like Mortahi with two shooting medusai units that some serious mortal wound potential. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I think the heart renders will be 120-140pts and the life takers 100-110pts purely from the sky warden and endinrigger comparison.

They'll probably move 12" have a 4+ (shields and armour) and a 6++. The javelins will probably be 3+ 4+ - 1 D1 or 4+ 3+ -1 D1.