Mcthew

Echoing others here, price is both a prohibitive thing for the hobby and discourages. I held off building a Nighthaunt army purely on the basis of Chainrasps being ludicrously expensive. Mortal Realms magazine then showed me that GW can still sell these models at a lower price point and not suffer financially (£2.99 for 10 chainrasps and 3 sequitors!!!), so it's got precious little do with production costs really. The new Slaanesh models look nice too, but again are overpriced. So I won't be buying the new Hedonite mortals range unless I can pick them up cheap from a 3rd party. Price isn't just a problem for current players though. It discourages the next generation. Most of my son's friends do not play because it is overly expensive. A business will struggle without new blood and GW can no longer rely on gamers passing their interests onto their kids. I'd say pricing needs to be looked at as a matter of priority for GW for the next 12 months for this to be sustainable. You simply can't ramp up costs and expect to thrive during an economic downturn without the business suffering.

Unless we go with alternate activations of units, I can't see GW doing that much if I'm honest. A way to influence that initiative roll would be useful and would add more than luck to the double-turn, but even then I'm not hopeful. Afterall, the double-turn can win a game for lower tier armies... It can help the underdog as much as it can doom them. Double-turn aside, I'd love there to be a solid campaign mechanic for AoS 3.0 (match-play/competitive players should look away now 😁). Afterall, everyone enjoys a good story to frame an epic battle on, don't they??

Double-turn-off could be mitigated with alternating activations, for the whole turn not just the combat phase... but do we really want that?

- I'd 2nd that. Models should interact with the scenery much more than they do. And that also includes line of sight and scenery. AoS seems to be one of the only systems that doesn't do this well enough, which is heresy for a GW game. So I'd like to see more about the scenery. - I can live with the current 'look out sir' rule. It works just fine for me either as kharadron player or on the receiving end of those flying dwarfs! - The double turn should stay, IMHO... but with changes. It shouldn't just be luck that decides initiave but other influences. For example, scoring more victory points in that turn should +1 to a player's iniative roll. Or a themed scenery piece or an artefact or allegiance ability could provide modifiers. It doesn't guarantee a decision goes a player's way, but it's an advantage that could be worth hunting for?

I play upwards of ten factions, 3 of these with competitive lists. Power creep is not a thing for me. Variety is. And its a fun game if you don't mind losing battles from time to time. I invest in AoS because mostly it is not ridiculously imbalanced and you can counter most factions. You just have to work at it. I can see how frustrating it is for 1 faction players though. One day king of the hill - the next, a feather dusty. KO know this. Sylvaneth do too. And don't get me started with factions that have never been that competitive. But that's the game. Play another if you wish, but go into this with your eyes as wide open as your wallets or risk being disappointed.

Without splitting hairs too much (and sure, I'm stoked about the new tome) there wasn't much wrong with the 2019 tome, and the FAQs were less than many more recent factions. Nurgle were more deserving of a new tome, I think (and some new models) but in terms of lore I'm guessing AoS will have more of a focus on Slaanesh than before, so it's warranted.

Warcry box is £62 worth of models for £45. Not bad but always thought Sprites were waaaaay overpriced. Not a great deal of plastic for almost a start collecting set. Sure you get tokens and cards, but... might bite from a discount seller tho.

So with the Morathi BR book imminent and with the promise of a Alarielle BR book to come, what are your hopes for Sylvaneth in Broken Realms? Me, I'm hoping for Kurnothi units with Realmlord properties, ie every Kurnothi unit is a wizard that buffs or can turn terrain/the landscape against the opposition. And maybe a few allegiance buffs too. I expect something about Drycha's story too, maybe a bit more venom from the Queen of Outcasts.

Another slightly concerning issue is availability. So according to several sites, most local hobby stores are getting very limited stock of new product from GW. We could speculate as to why, but the only rational explanations are: GW don't have the resources to create more stock (possible but worrying), the stock isn't selling well (possible, just look at LRLs, and again worrying), or they are shifting away from non-GW stores to concentrate on their own online and physical stores (very possible as the non-GW stores offer a discount - and worrying as this would be a complete monopoly of the hobby). Its one to watch I think, more than price rises.

Couldn't disagree with you more!! 😛 The point you've just made on volumes of books is a biggie. Most people wouldn't subscribe to a monthly publication of £30. So why should GW expect us to? Realmgate Wars had 4 books in total, so I'm expecting this to have at least 4 volumes. I could stretch to one every quarter, but one a month?!! I'd also wonder at the quality of the books if they became so regular. You're right that there is an issue of overload here - if this is going to lead to big AoS lore/rules changes, I'd hope for a breather between books rather than this GW AoS arms race of needing to keep up with... er... themselves, really. The bar can only be set so high before people stop reaching for it, or even seeing where it is.

They are unlikely to be essential changes to the rules. Just stuff that enhances the play of certain factions. Wrath of the Everchosen, for example, is fun, adds a little in terms of allegiance abilities but doesn't fix or add anything important. Just different tweaks to playing them. Forbidden Power was different - this added new endless spells and 2 playable allegiances that are quite popular now (and a godsend for Nighthaunt players). Again, an expensive set but you got models with those. But again, far from essential for most players. You're not missing out really if you only want the rules. Leave that for AoS 3.0 in a year or two.

🥳

So... Another resurrection of this thread, but this time looking at the non-model side of the hobby. With Broken Realms due for pre-order, what is the expectation of price for the 160ish page book? Wrath of the Everchosen was a paltry 100ish pages at £30, and a step increase on the narrative books, and low value compared to battletomes that would have more use. I didn't buy WotE until I found it somewhere with a significant discount (got in finally for £23). Even £30 for 160 pages for Broken Realms would feel like poor value: the Realmgate Wars books were, on average, 300 pages of AoS goodness, so £45 was, I'd say, not bad. 160 pages for the same price shows massive hobby-inflation that cannot be justified and will steer me away from the hobby, alas (the new models and prices had already started this trend). I'd bite at £25. I'd consider it at £30. Anything more would be alienating.

Agreed its early days, but at least the above shows that GW is pretty good at balancing a faction internally. This is not like OBR. Any of the skyports can hit like a sledgehammer. I've been a KO player for a while so I'll be the first to admit they've gone from the ridiculous to the perverse. Almost every major warscroll has seen an uplift of range of shooting (up to a 12" increase on one), uplifts to hit and wound characteristics, and the Ironclad has seen their sky cannon damage going from D6 to a straight 6. Then there's the uplifts to bravery and save characteristics on the key models too. That's without the alpha strike ability that means you go pretty much anywhere on the table and can chicken-out of melee; that's without the endless spell in the bottle artefact that auto casts, or the aether gold ability where you can spend triumphs (sure it has a cost, but a small one), and our dwarfs can now shoot and fight when embarked on our alpha-striking boats. We've had nerfs but only to abilities that weren't that great anyway (Khemists, and weapons options for our companies). It's not a surprise that KO are top tier by a long shot. They are a WH40k army in a world of swords and sorcerers so I would expect them to win more than in those AoS1.0 days of woe. Which is why I understand the defensiveness of KO players. We've had it bad for so long, it feels good to go to the tabletop knowing we're no longer the underdogs. Unbalanced? Well only if there really is no way of countering the above. Time will tell... but very much expect nerfing to come. Just worried to the extent that will happen...

So no love for cappin' Fly High? Getting the feeling KO are a one-trick pony. 😁 Seriously though, a nerf is in the offing so which would you rather nerf, Fly High or shooting? Me, I'd go for Fly High as I dont rely on it so much. I'd rather fly not so high than hit like a wet-flannel like in them oldendays of AoS 1.0. I mean, ratling guns used to hit harder than a frigate, and that ain't right.

Maybe not necessary but almost a certainty judging by how GW applies 'balance', if you can call it that. I reckon all it needs is a thematic cap on 'fly high.' Make it a 'chance' ability: say you can 'fly high' on a roll of 3+, or 2+ if there is an additional navigator on board or something. Introduces a further element of risk to tactics. Might not be a bad thing you know? (That way you could always fly high even if you are overburdened or with 1 wound remaining - but you need to roll a 6 tho. If you really want to go for thematic, a fail means the boat is lost in the aether and cannot be redeployed on the table that turn and needs to roll again in the following turns or be considered 'slain.')

Agree. AoS is less problematic, but recently the lore has attempted to show more grey than good vs evil. Chaos, for example, are no longer championed by inhuman monsters, but wayward heroes that buckled under the weight of pure horror. FEC are a tragedy really, as are most mortals in this Greek-God play that is AoS. Which is why there is so much narrative scope in this universe. And fewer problems. WH40k faces the same problems as 2000AD did with Judge Dredd. The main character is a facist. Its a police state and good people are the ones who die, often horribly. To sugar-coat that is to lie to your readership because you're afraid they won't get the satire. GW have got cold feet in the way 2000AD did not. Now the message is too mixed. And this is the root of why Warhammer will never be anything more than a tabletop hobby. It is based on the principle of never ending war and what practically facilitates that. That provides a never ending possibility for gaming, but is quite dramatically dull for the mainstream, and politically problematic. And its why films, shows and books like LotR, Alien and Battlestar Galactica succeed. Its not the battles that really captivate, but the humanity between the death, misery and awe, things we can relate to better. Honestly, there's not much anyone can relate to in WH40k beyond the hobby. But then... what a hobby!

Must admit I'm sceptical about this approach. It surmises that GW lore is a strong brand in the world of entertainment. Its not, compared to the big hitters and is limited in the same way as Dungeons and Dragons has always been. The media off-shoots are noway near successful enough to compete outside its own limited fan base which relies on the models and games to provide the business with oxygen. You only have to look at console gaming and the general dim view of GW licensed product, to see that it doesn't compete with say Fortnite, it cant compete with genre book sales, comic sales, and the last film was dire. For it to be a big player you would need a Disney type buyout which will never happen in the current climate based on how Entertainment needs a complete revision to function in a pandemic world. Its very unlikely that we would see anything like this soon and would prove a costly mistake if attempted in the near future. Maybe in 10-20 years it could I guess... But by then will we even care?

Wow. That's not good. It would be helpful to learn why those rises are outstripping wage inflation. This is not like buying a house. You don't need plastic soldiers to live. And you can buy them cheaper elsewhere. The Financial Times assessment of GW recently has everyone still amazed about this 'plastic' bubble of success the company has formed but also warned investors against GW: "The quality of growth is another concern. Analysis from research house Stockviews shows that since 2016, Games Workshop has become increasingly reliant on trade channels, whereas retail and online sales per hobby centre have stalled. A pause on shop openings since the start of the pandemic suggests that trend is unlikely to reverse any time soon. Greater reliance on independently operated stores increases the risk of disappointment. Not only are profit margins lower, but the reseller network suffers more during disruption than the core. Games Workshop’s full-year earnings showed trade-channel revenue down 16 per cent in the six months to the end of May versus the previous six months, compared with an 11 per cent decline in sales made through owned stores and online." This coupled with above inflation price rises will make GW games a higher tier of premium and force their players into a lower tier and away from GW games. Or, it will almost certainly turn them to the eBay market where GW will not make a penny and lose further revenue. There might be reasons for the constant price rises but not being transparent about them will hurt the business. As an aside, I havent bought anything from GW or Warhammer beyond the occasional paint pot, in over a year. And in the last 4 months I've only bought from eBay. For example, my last purchases had an rrp of £130 but I bought these new at £70 from an eBay reseller (one where GW will see nothing from that sale). This is not anti-GW, more a fiscal choice. The hobby is overpriced and when it interferes with essential living costs, it becomes an unhelpful distraction more than a hobby. I fear this will apply to most gamers in the months to come. So GW aren't helping themselves.

How much was the first starter set last year? Are we looking at a 25% price hike? If so I think this spells trouble for GW. Something in their 'modelling' feels a bit wrong there.

It will be interesting to see how 'recession proof' the GW model is. IMHO, the current prices for new ranges are not what I call 'recession proof'. But they need to be seen in context to wider GW prices. SoB will be niche. It's doubtful you will see mega gargants rampaging the Mortal Realms at will. About as likely as seeing lead giants roaming the battlefields of WFB back in the day (yeah, loved the model but waaaay too expensive to consider). So why produce them if you're not gonna sell many? For the same reason you sell Imperial Knights, the Khorne dragon thing, and all those other minis/monsters that cost as much as a long weekend in Amsterdam (unless you already live there!). It's for the prestige and endeavour. And the choice for those who can buy them and want to. Lumineth Realmlords are a different problem. This is a whole new range being released during a recession, and from what I've seen, it shows. Resellers are practically giving away the limited edition battletome, and our local hobbyist has sold less than half of their boxsets. This could be due to a number of factors, but pricing might be one of them. Comparing entry level costs of new armies to old, and it makes sense to go with Skaven, Stormcast and Mawtribes, than OBRs, LRLs and SoB. As the older armies are still cheaper to get into (throwing in Start Collecting boxsets into the mix) so I think the GW model still works to some degree. And like anything 'new', getting the latest thing comes at a cost. That's not being priced out of a hobby, just limiting people's choices. Which is not fun, true, but it's always been that way since the 1980s.

Have to echo LuminethMage. By and large the community is fantastic. There are some Troggoths here but they are very few (and let's face it, you can find them anywhere), and most people vent because they are passionate about their hobby. With any hobby thats expensive, addictive and not entirely balanced, you'll get the odd rant. Its natural. But you'll also get plenty of empathy and encouragement too. Sure, if you can't tolerate losing (and for those people you have my sympathy) then this isn't the game for you. Playing for the joy of AoS is an important part of the hobby in my book. Its toy soldiers, not life and death 😉

I love that LRL are bringing players to AoS for the first time or back to the game. So for me it isn't about popularity. I hope the range sells, although I think the push from GW may be cos it's not selling as well as hoped. Our local stockist ordered around 80 starter boxes and have since sold less than half (they're online and have 20% discount btw so it isn't just a local thing). As a result they've ordered a lot less LRL stock through individual releases. This could be down to many things: price, pandemic, recession, quality, rules, faction... you name it. I think it's too early to tell if LRL will be a popular faction. But the fact it is bringing back or bringing new players to AoS is a good thing.

Disappointed? Heck yeah, with any hero hitting and/or wounding on 4s with melee. That's you Aspiring Deathbringer, and you Darkoath Chieftan, to say just 2. Any hero who hits and/or wounds worse than their own battleline deserves to be belittled. Can't agree with Chaos Warriors or Chaos Knights though. Both units hit and wound on 3s without buffs. Warriors are as cheap as liberators but with smaller bases, and then there's that mortal wound save. Knights get that, and mobility and the bravery modifier to enemy units. Sure, not as imposing as WFB equivalents, but still pretty useful and better than many AoS battleline units point for point.

I picked up the LRL battletome for less than £15 from a reseller. Its a nice book, some fun rules. But that's it for me. The price point for the new models is so ludicrous its hilarious. Unless you have fanatically deep pockets, it's become a pointless faction for most players. And the vanari aside, the models are 'meh.' A real shame. I'm gonna keep the book for the lore but there are just better factions to collect in AoS, in every way, alas.