WatcherintheWater

This is going to completely change how we play. It will be fun to see how it turns out! At a really high level it seems like we've traded the hitting power of our dwarfs for more durability & more firepower from ships. Here are some list ideas that first spring to mind: Barak Zon - 2-3 units of Skywardens, Flying Endrinmaster general (give him the +2 attack artefact), a boat or two and some Arkanauts for sitting on objectives. Skywardens with a Skyhook and a re-roll can make the 9" charge 70% of the time, so you can even use the fly high and have a pretty good change of making it. Not as dependable as it was with the old Grapnels, though. Barak Zilfin - An Ironclad and a couple Frigates with a Lord Ordinator Plus some Thunderers, Arkanauts, & a couple heroes. Would be cool if you could fit in a second Ironclad, but probably not optimal. Barak Thryng - Gotrek & IDK what else 😁. First turn Arkanaut/Thunderer rush (Needs prosecute wars with all haste) - Load up 2 Frigates & an Ironclad with Arkanauts & Thunderers. I believe you can get off the ship after you move, so move up with the ships (run if needed), everybody hops out. With the run & 6" disembark you should be in range, so blast away. A little disappointed that you can't claim objectives with garrisoned units, and most can't shoot after flying high, but it probably would be a little too strong if you could.

There are three parts of what I would think of as good rules: Rules that match the fluff - I think the rules for the units & skyports match the fluff pretty well right now. The boats don't, though. Biggest thing I want in the new book is rules that encourage 2K armies to have at least 2 or more boats. External balance (power level of this book vs others) - Think this is OK right now (under the 2019 GHB). KO seem like about an average army. 48.3% win rate in the HWG stats. I actually care the least about them getting this right in the new book, because it changes with every GHB. Internal balance (most units in the book are useful and there are a variety of good builds) - I think this is the biggest issue with the current book. Almost all the competitive builds are Zilfin, and focus on Khemists buffing Arkanauts & Endrinriggers (and sometimes Thunderers or Skywardens). There are a lot of Sky-Ports & units that are almost never used (Nar, Thryng, Gunhaulers, Endrinmaster). How to achieve those things is definitely a matter of opinion.

I just played my 50th game of AOS with KO. It will probably be my last one before the new book comes out, so I wanted to take a look back at how the KO play style changed, and how well it did oveer the past 2 years. I started playing KO in full sized games in Jan 2018. Jan 2018 - June 2018 (GHB 2017) Games Played: 20 Win rate: 60% Usual List type: Barak Zilfin - 2 Frigates, with a big unit of Endrinriggers in one and a unit of combat Skywardens in the other. One ship deepstrikes & the other makes use of the Zilfin Hero Phase move. Thoughts: This was the most fun KO list I've run. Having two useful boats was really cool, and the Zilfin movement/redeploy/deepstrike abilities was great for playing objectives and keeping opponents guessing. Feels like this may have been the strongest we've been, and I probably could have won more games if I wasn't new to the army for part of this period. This period was also the first time I went to a 2-day tournament😀. June 2018 - Feb 2019 (GHB 2018) Games Played: 9 Win rate: 56% Most common list: Barak Zilfin - 1 Deepstriking frigate, with big unit of Endrinriggers and Skywardens. Usually an allied Knight Incantor. Thoughts: After the Mid-Year FAQ, it felt like there wasn't as much point in taking a second ship, unless you were running one of the Battalions. Also, in my local environment, magic was all over the place, so I felt like you needed an Incantor or some sort of way to dispel in the list. Feb 2019 - June 2019 (GHB 2018) Games Played: 13 Win rate: 38% Most common list: Barak Urbaz - Large unit of Arkanauts protected by 30 allied Dwarf Warriors, with units of Endrinriggers & Skywardens to counter charge. Thoughts: February 2019 was when some of the books that I thought were really strong started to come out (Skaven, FEC, Slaanesh), which is why I split the GHB 2019 season in half. I switched to a more shooting heavy list to try and counter some of the big monsters that were running around, but ended up with a pretty static list. This was the only period where I felt like there were some match-ups that depending on the scenario & opponent were close to un-winnable without getting a double turn or your opponent making a big mistake. June 2019 - Now (GHB 2019) Games Played: 8 Win rate: 88% Most common list: Barak Zilfin - Unit of 40 Arkanauts protected by 30 allied Longbeards plus a deepstriking Frigate with a big Endrinrigger unit. Thoughts: I didn't get as many games in as I wanted over the past few months, but I think KO were in a pretty strong place. The GHB 2019 points reductions definately helped, and I think KO were a pretty good match up against some of the top armies, but it felt like I was really relying on the 40 Arkanaut unit to do a lot of work. Overall thoughts: I've always had fun with the KO, even when they weren't at their strongest. I started a Nurgle army , and have enough Dispossessed to run a good Tempest Eye list, but always come back to the Overlords. I think the models are great, and they feel like a tactical army to play, where you really have to think about movement and target prioritization. My only complaint was that every competitive list I put together over the past 2 years was built around Khemists buffing big units of Endrinriggers & Arkanauts (& sometimes Skywardens), with the rest of the list designed to protect/deliver them. Good luck to all you Admirals in 2020!

Even without a battalion, you can probably get down to 3 drops or so (unless they change the rules for deploying in skyvessals). The one downside that I see is that because flying high happens in the movement phase, and disembarking happens at the start of the hero phase (unless it changes too), you can't get out of the boats to do the Endrinrigger charge, and do risk getting surrounded on the following turn.

Does anyone know if garrisoned units claim objectives? If they can, that makes the Fly High rule even better.

That rule preview looks so great! Battleline Frigates Improved rules for embarked units Reasons to have more than one boat Incentives to take more units of 10 or so Potentially useful combat skywardens Basically everything I wanted, too!

I agree with everyone that shooting is pretty well balanced. Different roles for different units/builds. One of the big advantages of Arkanauts and Crossbows is the 31" or 32" threat range on turn 1 without spending a command point. Because a lot of times deployment is 24" apart, it's easy for opponents to hide characters from the shorter range units, force you to go first (since usually TE is pretty high drop), and give you nothing to shoot at. You don't get the Arkanaut pistols in range and the Crossbows only shoot once, but I find that the threat to be really big. And the Arkanauts esipicially can take out a couple key support heroes or a monster even without the pistols. You can use the bridge to get Darkshards or Handgunners in range too, but there is always the risk that it falis to cast, and it is an extra investment. All this matters less in the 18" deployment scenarios, though. One other question for the group: seems like people really like using the Hurricanium to buff shooting units. Do you really think it's worth the points? 220 seems steep for a +1 to hit. Example: Let's say we have Arkanauts shooting at a 3+ save hero or monster. I'm using the points for a non-wizard Hurricanium. 30 Arkanauts + Khemist + Hurricanium (720 points): 17 wounds from the skyhooks, 8 from the pistols (remember they are 2 shots each) 40 Arkanauts + Khemist (620 points): 18 wounds from the skyhooks, 8.5 from the pistols It's the same damage for 100 points less. I would imagine that the math works out similarly for the other units.

No updates to Overlords in the big FAQ drop. Makes me believe the rumors of a new book early next year.

I find it helpful to put some numbers on how big an impact the double turn actually has. I while ago, I took a look at the tournament games I had played over the past ~2 years (mostly local 1 day events, but a couple 2 days), and did some analysis on who won turn rolls and how that effected who won the game. It's not a huge sample size, but here's what I found: 36 games where I could remember who won the rolls. I won 18, drew 1, and lost 17 (51% win rate). I used Overlords in almost every game. In games where I won the turn 2 priority roll, I went 9-1-5 (63%) vs 9-12 (43%) when I lost the turn 2 roll. In games where I won the turn 3 roll, I went 9-4 (69%) vs when I lost the turn 3 roll 9-1-13 (41%). Cutting the data a little further (small sample caveat applies double here): In games where I won both priority rolls, I went 5-3 (63%), Won one roll & lost one roll, 8-1-3 (71%). Lost both rolls, 5-11 (31%). Based on those numbers, I would estimate that the turn 2 & turn 3 priority rolls are each worth between 10% and 15%. Meaning that if at the end of turn 1 you had a 50% chance of winning, and you won the turn 2 priority roll it would become about 63%. That is just based on my army of course. KO are probably more turn dependent than some other armies, due to the all the shooting. To me this is a big dice roll, but not something insane, where is you lose it the game is over. I don't actually think it's that out of line with the randomness in other games I've played (Fantasy, 9th age, Wild West Exodus). Fantasy especially felt like that sometimes, where there was huge randomness in how powerful you magic phase was, or when the whole game could swing dramatically on break & pursuit tests. I think removing the priority roll would cause a huge shift in the balance of power and cause some big issues with scenarios & rules. The main thing I worry about is that alpha striking on the top of turn 1 would become too powerful, since you could do it without any worry that you might get doubled back, and I don't think there is an easy solution to it. However, I would like to see some more mechanics that advantage the second player, like in shifting objectives. The easiest would be to make it so both players score objectives at the end of each game turn, not each player turn.

I'm taking my KO to a local doubles tournament this weekend. Each team takes two 1K points armies. Here's what I was thinking: Barak Urbaz (additional footnote: There's no trading with some people) Aether Khemist w/ Ignax Scales & Stickler for the Code (Surrender is rarely profitable) 10 Arkanaut Company w/ Skyhooks 30 Arkanaut Company w/ Skyhooks 9 Endrinriggers w/ 2 Grapnels My partner is using Cities. His list is basically 50 Phoenix Guard, a wizard, & a Phoenix Guard Hero. Should work well since his durable guard units can keep my squishy stuff safe. Here's the question: Is one Aether Khemist enough at 1K or should I take a second and drop the Endrinriggers down to 6 (no grapnels)? If I can keep him alive, I'd rather have the extra Endrinriggers, and Urbaz gives me 2 buffs anyway, but I worry that some opponents will be able to take him our which pretty dramatically reduces my firepower.

You can always use your Warriors as Longbeards. They are almost exactly the same model. Thunderers & Quarrelers are tougher to find a match for, but I don't think anyone would mind you using the Freeguild Handgunner/Xbowmen rules (although I know some people don't like using dwarfs as humans). That said there's no issue with continuing to use the Dispossessed allegiance for now.

@Entombet Both look like good lists! I think the first list is pretty strong. I really like using Longbeards as an ally. They are great for keeping your big Arkanaut unit safe, and give you some good presence in claiming mid-board objectives. I'm not sure about the Runelord, though. I really like to spread my Longbeards out in a long line to protect everything else, so it's tough to stay wholly within buff range. And at that point you are basically paying 90 points (and +1 drop) for a dispel. I'd swap him out for 5 more thunderers or a Knight-Azyros (good buff, roadblock, & mobile objective claimer). Second list looks really fun, but I don't think is as strong (if that's what you are going for). Brokk is cool, but I don't think he's the most efficient pick for his points.

I agree. Feels like were are generally in a good spot, but more opportunities for battle line would be great. They could also do that with making some existing units battleline if. I really like the idea of having a way to make some ships battleline. If we are wishlisting though, here's what I'd like: Some sort of combat battleline unit. They could be called Arkanaut Marines or something like that and have advantages when disembarking from a ship. Maybe +1 attack or re-rolls to hit if they charge in the same turn that they disembark. A pure combat hero would be fun. Maybe a a guy in a mechanized suit or something like that. A huge aircraft carrier ship. Don't know how this would practically work in normal size games, but it could be a super cool model. Weapons teams sound pretty cool, too.

@LLVThis is so awesome! Thanks! I think there might be a sort error in the Match Win % column in the Meta% table. Looks like the Slaanesh win rate is showing for Stormcast for example.

@sal4m4nd3r I hate it when a list comes in just over! The easiest thing to do would be to just drop the arkanauts to 40/10/10, and then add 3 Skywardens with a shooting loadout. They can deploy in a Frigate, keeping your drops low, and just fly around claiming objectives and shooting. Or you could add 5 Thunderers instead of the wardens (although I like the wardens better). Just have to make sure to use your frigates and smaller arkanaut units to keep the big blob safe. If a good unit gets into them those 480 points can disappear real fast. The other option would be to go 30/10/10 and add another Frigate, but I don't think that would be as strong. I've never used the Iron Sky Squadron, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Looks like a cool list! A couple ideas if you want to make it more "competitive" or for what you could do with your extra points Replace the 6 Riggers with 9 Wardens. Without the Khemist buff a Warden is basically equal to a Rigger, and it would fit your points nicely. I know you have the +1A from the Sorceress, but there is a chance her spell fails, or she is out of range. Even if you get the +1A, 9 Wardens should have similar output to 6 Riggers, and can soak up a few more wounds Replace Brokk with a Khemist & 3 more Riggers (including 2 or 3 with Grappnels). Chance at getting 3 attacks per Rigger, which is brutal, and the Grappnels probably give you as good movment as Brokks command, without costing the CP, in addition to some extra wounds. I'm not sure Brokk is work 240 points in this list generally. The only time where he adds a lot of value is if you want to alpha strike, but even then you can make it without any help if deployment is 18", and if you are doing more of a Beta strike, you probably don't need him either. He could be useful for helping get onto objectives in your opponent's deployment zone late in the game, but Grappnel's give you much more range for that. That said, he is really cool! I like the 10 man Longbeard unit for it's grumbling ability Just my thoughts.

The Khemist is a huge buff piece to support the endrinriggers. It basically doubles their combat output. If you want to use Brokk, I would prioritize adding a Khemist above the Frigate. If you want to make a competitive list, I would consider dropping Brokk. Tough to fit him in at 1K. Instead you could go with min Arkanauts, Khemist, Frigate (with deepstrike artifact), and either 9 Endrinriggers and a CP or 12 Skywardens. Gives you a 2 drop list with the ability to drop the bulk of your force where you want.

@sal4m4nd3rlooks like it could be a good list. One big risk that jumps out to me: usually you see these Mhornar lists with some sort of battalion or at least ships to keep them low drop and give them the choice of first turn. If you go against an enemy that out droops you and can alpha strike hard or turn 1, get a big speed bump in your way, or give you the turn and keep key targets out of harms way (like stormcast deploying their important units in the sky), it will be an uphill slog from the very start.

The first model I ever painted (back in middle school). Time to give him a new paint job and have Kragg the Grim join my Cities of Sigmar army!

For the KO ships, it depends on what you want to use them for: Gunhauler - Cheap & fast. Can use that movement to claim objectives, or to be a speedbump. Frigate - If you want to use the ship as a transport, this is your most cost efficient option. Ironclad - Has the most firepower. One thing that will make using the Frigate or Ironclad as a transport tricky is the 1 in 4 KO unit limit. So if you have a ship, and a unit in the ship to transport, that's probably all the KO you can fit in your list. There is a cool trick you can do with Thunderers if you deploy the in a frigate or ironclad. They can disembark on turn 1 (4" disembark move), move 7" (base 4"+3" for tempest eye), shoot, charge (2d6 if successful), then retreat out of combat during their activation per their warscroll ability (base 4"+3" for tempest eye+d6). So they can go 18+3d6" as long as you make your

Thanks for starting! I currently play KO, and have a decent collection of Dispossessed that I'm working on moving to round bases. Before Cities, I was never really interested in using Dispossessed as anything more than allies. But now I'm really excited to do a KO/Dispossessed Tempest's Eye list. Here is what I'm thinking: Gotrek 2x Runelords Aether Khemist Knight Azyros 40 Arkanaut Company 30 Hammerers 2x10 Longbeards Plan would be for the one Runelord to stick with the Hammerers as one big combat block. Gotrek & at least 10 Longbeards are another combat threat. Gotrek can use the run 6" command on turn 1 to keep up with everyone, and the Longbeards give him Look out Sir, and prevent too many models from a horde unit being able to alocate attacks against him. The Arkanauts, Khemist, & other Runelord (general with +1 to wound in shooting phase trait) stick together and shoot away from behind those units, while slowly moving up to get objectives late game depending on scenario. I'll make the Khemist the 2nd in command (forget what it's called), and keep him near the general, who will also have the CP generating artifact. Azyros flys all the way up to my opponent on turn 1 to buff shooting, and be a speed bump. If he's still alive in turn 2 he can use his hero phase MW blast.

If you are just comparing damage output, and put in the Pistols & the Arkanaut ranged attack, they go up to .048, so basically 40% more damage/point than the Darkshards vs heroes & monsters (.037 vs non-hero/monsters). And the Arkanauts can take 28 wounds before you have to remove a single skyhook. Darkshards have some other pluses though. They are faster, more maneuverable, and have +1 Bravery. Good point on using a mix of unit sizes, too.

Do we know if Arkanauts count as battleline in Tempest's Eye? I'm guessing so...

Sounds like I’m more positive about the changes than most people. Here are my opinions on what is better/worse: Better: -Shields: you can debate whether you would rather have the reroll, but the fact that you get the +1 all the time now is great. Also means we have it on turn 1 if someone alpha strikes us. -Musicians: Avg run roll is 4.5 now, and you get the charge bonus. If you have some way to teleport a unit and have a command point reroll, you have a 66% chance to make the charge, and tempest eye dwarfs can go 9+d6” on turn 1 if they run! -Warden King oathstone ability is so much better. - Hammerers got a real nice buff. -Endless spell defense Neutral: -Warden King grudge ability: +1 attack is better than +1 to wound, but now only for combat -Longbeard grumbling- I quite liked battleshock protection. -Irondrake shooting Worse: -Ironbreakers & Irondrakes trade the ignore tend for +1 save vs shooting. - Longbeards lose the option to take GW & shield. - Standards

I just used some superglue and green stuff. Make sure you give it a full 24 hours to cure. Played probably 40 games with it and no issues