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Chris Tomlin

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Everything posted by Chris Tomlin

  1. Hello and welcome back!! I figured it was long overdue I caught up with this blog. It was close to being forgotten for a while there! I'll admit I've been feeling somewhat bi-polar with the Ironjawz of late, but they always seem to pull me back in. No sooner have I assembled a new Tzeentch army ready to paint, have I decided to switch back to the Ironjawz! So, where I am in the hobby right now? What's going on?! Well... - I have now played 18 games with the Ironjawz so far this year (including 9 tournament games). I think we are possibly a little beyond reports of these now, however I will list them over the next week for a sense a completeness and to keep a full record here. As it is, a large number of those games will have been discussed on either The Black Sun Weekly or Age of Sigbrah and when I note up the games I will advise if this is the case (just for those who may be interested). Going forward I would like to give proper reports here where possible, but I think I have to appreciate that this may not always be possible and be ok with just a couple of lines as opposed to beating myself up about it! - I have started a new campaign this week, ran by @Paul Buckler and based on the WFB 8th Blood in the Badlands campaign system. I was considering my Flesh-eaters for this, but switched to Ironjawz at the last moment! First game last night was amazing, check out my Twitter media for some cool pics @the_black_sun. This campaign will hopefully encourage me to paint up some new bits. - Nice segway there, as painting wise I have not painted a model properly since October last year (I've painted a full FEC army and a Saga warband, but not top quality stuff) when I did Brutes #21-30 for Clash. So whilst I've be coming up with all these new Ironjawz lists with @Sangfroid, I'm not able to play them at Tournaments as I don't have the models painted. So yeh, kinda wanna start pushing myself to paint Ironjawz again. I have sooooo much stuff unassembled/unpainted; 2nd Megaboss 3rd Warchanter Weirdnob Shaman* 10 Brutes (taking me to 40) 15 Gore-gruntas (taking me to 18) 40 Ardboyz (taking me to 50) Rogue Idol of Gork 30 Savage Orruks 10 Orruks And that's maybe it?! Daunting. I would love to get those Gore-gruntas assembled and painted for #RAW17 in October this year. Definitely a bit of a personal goal there. The General's Handbook 2 is obviously going to come out and make some changes for us, so will be interesting to see the fallout there. Presumably (and hopefully!) I will need more models. I've asterisked the Weirdnob Shaman as I am actually in the process of painting that model now...which is pretty exciting. It really is fantastic and full of character. Really interested to see what I can do with it. Hopefully can make him look proper mental and arguable most importantly of all; nail that smoke! - Tournament wise, I am booked in for absolutely loads already this year. I'm going to take them as they come and not really make massive plans for the year. In all honesty I probably will take armies other than just Ironjawz across the year, but we'll just play it by ear. Ideally I don't want to be giving myself any killer paint deadlines like I did last year. First up is the Sheffield Slaughter next weekend 25th and 26th Feb. This is a standard 2 day, 5 game event with list submission on the day, which is really nice. Means there is zero pressure on getting the Weirdnob finished. If I do finish him, I'm considering this list; Krunk - Battle Brew Cabbage - Talisman Weirdnob Warchanter 15 Brutes - General, Bellowing Tyrant 5 Brutes 10 Ardboyz 3 Gore-gruntas Ironfist It's funny, as me and Kieran have been discussing all these super innovative and different lists, only for me to then go and take literally one of each unit plus the Megabrutes! Haha. Yeh, them aside it's pretty basic. Should look pretty though and will hopefully get a couple of wins in. I don't really have any expectation on this one, so all good. - Finally, photos. Photos, photos, photos...how many times did I promise proper photos last year and not deliver on them? I lost count...better off asking @The Stronghold and @HobbyHammer. But yeh, this is something I need to do this year, for myself if not the people I've been letting down. As I've repeatedly failed to come up with anything half decent myself I think I will look into getting some help from a pro, or at least some one with a proper camera. It's definitely on my list! A proper photo of Megaboss Krunk was snapped at Partner's in Chaos this past weekend, so I'll add that to this thread for sure. Couple of posts I never replied to; Yeh not bad going eh? Don't think I'll be able to keep it up whatsoever haha Haha...yeh, I am pretty lucky for sure. I definitely don't take it for granted and know I have a very understanding other half (I suspect she'd pleased to have me preoccupied with other things!). But yeh, we'll leave it there for now. I probably should do some work! But let's considered this thread reactivated shall we? Megaboss Chris
  2. Hey all, Bit of movement on the reserve list, with the winner of Heat One, @ravman, now making the main entrants list and adding another top competitor into the mix! Sorry for the delay on the PDF, still finalising a couple of details.
  3. Need to see if I'm free this weekend, got a horrible feeling I've got a wedding on these dates.
  4. Thanks Paul, a most kind offer. I'll add details of this to the PDF when I get around to it. Cheers
  5. The grudges are flying in now, always great to see! GRUDGES Aaron Bailey vs Donal Taylor Karl Breakspear vs Andy Talbot Paul Buckler vs Kieran Harper Gary Hennessey vs Martin Morrin Rob Ellis vs Russ Veal Adam Petford vs Laurie Huggett-Wilde Mark Mitzman vs Tom Hewitt Matt Lyons vs Richard Ciereszko Wayne Holt vs Ricky Mee Think that's everyone so far, though may have missed some from the PiC group chat? Not sure if @RichardCZ and @ChippyRick have formally accepted? @Mitzy, really unsure on Friday at present. Won't have access to the venue, potentially could play at mine though. Also, @Mike Burgess you are added to the reserves. Cheers,
  6. I'm happy to add you to the reserve list if you like Mike? Don't need to take any payment at present. There's a few guys ahead of you (see original post).
  7. Ok, So trying to find all the grudges. I have 3 issued and accepted so far; GRUDGES Aaron Bailey vs Donal Taylor Karl Breakspear vs Andy Talbot Paul Buckler vs Kieran Harper We also have Gary Hennessey having accepted a grudge from Chris Lewis, but then also grudging Martin Morrin! See, it's not that easy is it!!! . @The Lost Lighthouse (Gary) please confirm. Finally, Rob Ellis has grudged Russ Veal, but we are yet to have a response from the Master. @Russ Veal Let me know if I've missed anything.
  8. Re: Compendium and GH2 news today There's clearly some changes afoot at GW with the GH2 and perhaps the way compendium will be dealt with going forward (tbh it doesn't look to be panning out as I expected!). I've been going back and forwards in my head over how to handle this at Tomorrow Burns for the last couple of hours and have settled on just leaving everything as it is! So to clarify; No new experimental points costs will be used at Tomorrow Burns, this will be played as per the current General's Handbook and Forgeworld points. The General's Handbook Compendium Matched Play Profiles (pages 146-152) will still not be allowed at Tomorrow Burns. I think that covers everything and is probably the right choice for the event 7 weeks out, although I'll admit a level of uncertainty over it all. Anyway, watch this space for further info including tournament pack PDF, food, bowling etc in the next week or so. @Forestreveries - come on man, who in their right mind organises multiple grudges? Actually I will have to update the first post with grudges as well. If anyone can repost theirs in here just to make it easy for (lazy) me, that'd be great! Chris
  9. Thanks man, appreciate it. I'll drop him a tweet on lunch if I remember as well. It's actually the same amount of Chiefs as the dropout was Baz!
  10. Morning all, I will be getting a PDF up with scoring, timings and any other pertinent info in the next week or so. Suffice to say though this will be pretty standard; 5 games, GH battleplans, 2,000pt fixed lists (to be submitted on the day). Maybe some small soft scores etc. Remember the last day for refunds on drop outs is this Friday, 10/02/17. So if you're still on the fence, please try to decide beforehand. Carl Smith, you are now on the main list due to a drop out. I think there may be a couple of stragglers who were previously at the bottom of the reserve list who are now in the event and haven't paid. I will be chasing payment later. Sedge and Craig, I'm happy for you to sit there without payment until there is a place for you at this stage. It's not too far away now!
  11. Let's hope that some science nerd has invented a teleportation device by September. Failing that, leaving at <6am will be a must.
  12. Sorry been away, will sort out Payment this week.
  13. Put my name top of that list!! Last year was absolutely brilliant, definitely my favourite AoS event so far. I've already got the Friday booked off.
  14. Try and find @Cowboy Boots Matt's thread in this sub forum. I think his scheme is based on your first pic.
  15. Traditionally grudges haven't been a thing at SCGT unfortunately. If they do change up for this year though I'd be well up for that(providing we both get tickets of course!!).
  16. Enjoy your one last hurrah mate! #borrowedtime
  17. Hey, Hopefully we will be able to get a good group attending from the combined TBS, Age of Sigbrah & Dorset Doggers crews...it is just down the road after all! Fingers crossed...I have funny feeling this could be a popular one!
  18. Entrants 1. Paul Buckler 2. Mike Burgess 3. Laurie Huggett-Wilde 4. Patrick O'Sullivan 5. Rob Noyes 6. Tony Moore 7. Matthew Croad 8. William Morriss 9. Kane Holloway 10. Sam Davies 11. Russ Veal 12. Les Martin 13. Donal Taylor 14. Chris Lewis 15. Elliot O'Neill 16. Sam Pearson 17. James Eveleigh 18. Steve Phillips 19. Ian Gilmore 20. Robert Sedgeman 21. Rob Perrin 22. Ben Diesel 23. Rob Ellis 24. Liam Cook 25. Jonathon Kyprianidis 26. Mike Wilson 27. Jon Warmington 28. Richard Ciereszko 29. Terry Pike 30. Paul Whitehead 31. Luke Whitehead 32. Ben Johnson 33. Steve Hursell 34. Dave Avery 35. Owyn Abram 36. Josh Richards 37. Ben Richard 38. Tom Hutchings 39. Aaron Bailey 40. Matt Arnold 41. Nicholas Nunn 42. Simon Eccles 43. Pete Allison 44. Chris Allison 45. Andrew Lewis 46. Joel Smith 47. Mark Saunders 48. Steve Smith 49. John Greene 50. James Hayday 51. William Crankshaw 52. Daniel Ford 53. Matthew Lyons 54. Jenny Lyons 55. Kieran Harper 56. David Brown 57. Ed Hamon 58. Jack McQuiggin 59. Hugh Halligan 60. Mike Parker 61. Jan Proudley 62. Joe Purcell 63. Michael Vernon 64. Paul Marshallsay 65. Matthew Sheret 66. Chris Thursten 67. Andrew Mackay 68. Danny Cashman 69. Marc Brookes 70. Stewart Callander 71. Nicholas Ruesink-Brown 72. Alex Clark 73. Mark Wildman 74. Benjamin Savva 75. Tom Lambert 76. Rob Bradley 77. Ian Ralph 78. Adrian Downey 79. Ricky Mee 80. James Boots 81. Carl Smith 82. Tom Pedley 83. Adrian McWalter 84. James Ramsey 85. Byron Orde Round One Draw 1. Donal Taylor vs Sam Davies 2. Paul Buckler vs Chris Lewis 3. Matt Lyons vs Les Martin 4. Matt Arnold vs Steve Phillips 5. Simon Eccles vs Ben Johnson 6. Jen Lyons vs Ian Gilmore 7. Adrian McWalter vs Ricky Mee 8. Rob Ellis vs Ben Diesel - 9. Stewart Callander vs Marc Brookes 10. Terry Pike vs Chris Allison 11. Tom Hutchings vs Rob Noyes 12. Robert Sedgeman vs James Ramsey 13. Paul Marshallsay vs Paul Whitehead 14. Ben Richard vs Rob Perrin 15. Carl Smith vs David Brown 16. Jan Proudley vs Rob Bradley 17. Daniel Ford vs Alex Clark 18. Jonathon Kyprianidis vs Pete Allison 19. Benjamin Savva vs Adrian Downey 20. Owyn Abram vs Mark Saunders 21. Matthew Croad vs Russ Veal 22. Elliot O'Neill vs Mike Wilson 23. Luke Whitehead vs Danny Cashman 24. William Morriss vs Joel Smith 25. Sam Pearson vs Chris Thursten 26. Dave Avery vs Kieran Harper 27. Patrick O'Sullivan vs Byron Orde 28. William Crankshaw vs Jack McQuiggin 29. Josh Richards vs Tom Lambert 30. Matthew Sheret vs Laurie Huggett-Wilde 31. Michael Vernon vs Ian Ralph 32. Richard Ciereszko vs Joe Purcell 33. Mark Wildman vs James Boots 34. Mike Burgess vs Ed Hamon 35. Liam Cook vs Steve Smith 36. Jon Warmington vs John Greene 37. Mike Parker vs Andrew Mackay 38. James Eveleigh vs Tom Pedley 39. Nicholas Nunn vs Andrew Lewis 40. James Hayday vs Nicholas Ruesink-Brown 41. Kane Holloway vs Hugh Halligan 42. Tony Moore vs Aaron Bailey
  19. until
    Hey guys, With the events calendar filling up so quickly I wanted to pencil in my second two day event for later in the year; the return of BLACKOUT (I figured I probably should build a bit of brand as opposed to confusing people by renaming my events each time!). CLICK FOR FULL TOURNAMENT PACK **23/08/17 Update** Here is a list of relevant information from throughout this thread. This will be collated into a proper "pack" by the end of the week. Apologies for the delay; We will be 5 games of straight up Matched Play Warhammer, using 5 of the new Matched Play battleplans from the General's Handbook 2017. I will announce each battleplan before the start of the round. Please try to familiarise yourself with these beforehand. Lists will be submitted to myself on the day (paper copy please). Command Traits and Artefacts must be listed and will not change for the duration of the event. I also ask that you have a second copy (paper or digital) that you exchange with your round one opponent. Please take a few moments to check each others lists before the game starts. Any errors spotted during this time can be amended without penalty, new Handbook and all that! Whilst my preference is usually for soft score heavy events, I have made the decision that this event will be basing purely off gaming because of the new Handbook. I want to keep it as simple and inclusive as possible, with people being able to try out new armies and cool allies etc. I was slightly loathe to remove a cohesive requirement (or at least a bonus for doing so), however this is a one off, once again because of the new Handbook, and I would certainly return to soft scores in the future. Luckily we have Facehammer coming up a few weeks after which scratches that itch this year. All models with matched play profiles in the General's Handbook 2017 can be used, as can the latest versions of any Forgeworld warscoll as of 26/08/17 (note Rogue Idol change). Also I am informed that updated matched play profiles are to be released for Compendium warscrolls on 26/08/17, so these will also be allowed. All models must be based on suitable round/oval bases and of course we will be measuring to bases! No other house rules as such, we will be following the Matched Play guidelines within the General's Handbook 2017 including Rules of One etc. Terrain is not required. All models must be fully painted* and based otherwise they will be removed and you will incur a 10 point penalty. There is no requirement for armies to be cohesive. This is to encourage people to try out the new allies rules! Please note that WYSIWYG is still a thing though!! 50 Tournament points available; Major Victory = 10, Minor Victory = 8, Draw = 5, Minor Defeat = 2, Major Defeat = 0 First tie break is Sports votes (be nice whilst winning!), the second is kill points scored. Armies will be displayed on Saturday lunch so that I can shortlist Best Army nominations for a public/judge vote on Sunday. If your army includes reserve points, you can display additional models from your summoning pool, however the overall army you display cannot exceed 2,000 points. Each player will vote for Best Sports at the end of the event, in the case of a tie, the highest placed player will win the award (win whilst being nice!). The Trophies available are; 1st, 2nd, 3rd Place: as above these are scored purely on the 50 gaming TPs available, with sports first tiebreak (kill points 2nd). 1st, 2nd, 3rd Best Army: these will be player judged from a nominated shortlist on the Sunday. Judges Choice Best Painted Army: this will be my favourite army at the event, entirely possible it will be one of the above 3 though. Best Sports: as above this will be based off player sports votes with the highest placed player winning in the event of a tie. The Jen Lyons Thrills not Skills Award: this will be awarded to the player who finishes last. Your name will be carried forward to my next event. Best In Alliance (Destruction, Chaos, Death & Order): these will be decided purely on Kill Points so can be won by anyone (except maybe @#SteveJames). In the unlikely event of a tie, highest placing will win. Also the Friday night Skirmish will have trophies for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Best Warband and Best Sports *I will not use the term "3 colour minimum" as it is open for abuse. If you are unsure whether your models are painted(?!), please get in contact with me. Saturday 2nd September - BLACKOUT Day One Firestorm Games Opens: 09:00 Registration & Announcements: 09:00 - 09:30 Game One: 09:30 - 12:15 Lunch: 12:15 - 13:15 – After Game One please display you army so I can select Best Army nominees Game Two: 13:15 - 16:00 Game Three: 16:15 - 19:00 Firestorm Games Closes: 23:00 Sunday 3rd September - BLACKOUT Day Two Firestorm Games Opens: 09:00 Game Four: 09:30 - 12:15 Lunch: 12:15 - 13:15 – After Game Four the Best Army nominees will display their armies for voting Game 5: 13:15 - 16:00 Results Presentation: 16:30 - 17:00 **07/08/17 Update** This event will be played under The General's Handbook 2017!! Please see last post page 3 for more information. A full pack is to follow next week. There will also be a Skirmish event on the Friday. **05/04/17 Update** Tickets go on sale Saturday 8th April at 8pm GMT - £40 as PayPal (friends and family) to lunatic_pandora@btinternet.com (see below for more details) So I'm pleased to be able to confirm the dates as 2nd & 3rd September 2017 and more exciting, the venue; Firestorm Games, Cardiff What's even better is I'll be able to offer a capacity of 100 players! After the popularity of Tomorrow Burns in Weymouth, I figured it might be time to try my hand at a bigger event in a more easily accessible venue. As a massive fan of Cardiff events myself, this seemed an easy decision, made easier thanks to some conversations with @Mo Ashraf. I was keen to not step on any toes here and FYI I do not consider this a replacement or successor to the phenomenal Clash of Swords events Mo has run over the last few years, it's just me bringing my event to a different location. Who knows what will happen in the future, but for 2017, me bringing a big AoS event to Cardiff in the latter part of the year is just a good fit for everyone. I've also been in discussion with the Facehammer boys to ensure no clash with their Grand Tournament. There is a lot of talking behind the scenes between TO's to avoid clashes as much as possible to try and make it easier for you guys to attend multiple events. It's a testament to AoS and the strength of our scene that the calendar is being booked up almost right to the end of the year in January!! So get some dates pencilled in your calendar, start looking at hotels because they do get expensive and/or sell out in Cardiff. I've given as much notice as possible to hopefully make it easy to get yourselves sorted in good time (yeh right!!). I'm unsure when tickets will go on sale at present, so keep an eye on this topic. Chris
  20. Event Title: BLACKOUT - 02-03/09/17 - Firestorm Games - PDF pack Event Author: Chris Tomlin Calendar: Events UK Event Date: 09/02/2017 12:00 AM to 09/03/2017 12:00 AM Hey guys, With the events calendar filling up so quickly I wanted to pencil in my second two day event for later in the year; the return of BLACKOUT (I figured I probably should build a bit of brand as opposed to confusing people by renaming my events each time!). CLICK FOR FULL TOURNAMENT PACK **23/08/17 Update** Here is a list of relevant information from throughout this thread. This will be collated into a proper "pack" by the end of the week. Apologies for the delay; We will be 5 games of straight up Matched Play Warhammer, using 5 of the new Matched Play battleplans from the General's Handbook 2017. I will announce each battleplan before the start of the round. Please try to familiarise yourself with these beforehand. Lists will be submitted to myself on the day (paper copy please). Command Traits and Artefacts must be listed and will not change for the duration of the event. I also ask that you have a second copy (paper or digital) that you exchange with your round one opponent. Please take a few moments to check each others lists before the game starts. Any errors spotted during this time can be amended without penalty, new Handbook and all that! Whilst my preference is usually for soft score heavy events, I have made the decision that this event will be basing purely off gaming because of the new Handbook. I want to keep it as simple and inclusive as possible, with people being able to try out new armies and cool allies etc. I was slightly loathe to remove a cohesive requirement (or at least a bonus for doing so), however this is a one off, once again because of the new Handbook, and I would certainly return to soft scores in the future. Luckily we have Facehammer coming up a few weeks after which scratches that itch this year. All models with matched play profiles in the General's Handbook 2017 can be used, as can the latest versions of any Forgeworld warscoll as of 26/08/17 (note Rogue Idol change). Also I am informed that updated matched play profiles are to be released for Compendium warscrolls on 26/08/17, so these will also be allowed. All models must be based on suitable round/oval bases and of course we will be measuring to bases! No other house rules as such, we will be following the Matched Play guidelines within the General's Handbook 2017 including Rules of One etc. Terrain is not required. All models must be fully painted* and based otherwise they will be removed and you will incur a 10 point penalty. There is no requirement for armies to be cohesive. This is to encourage people to try out the new allies rules! Please note that WYSIWYG is still a thing though!! 50 Tournament points available; Major Victory = 10, Minor Victory = 8, Draw = 5, Minor Defeat = 2, Major Defeat = 0 First tie break is Sports votes (be nice whilst winning!), the second is kill points scored. Armies will be displayed on Saturday lunch so that I can shortlist Best Army nominations for a public/judge vote on Sunday. If your army includes reserve points, you can display additional models from your summoning pool, however the overall army you display cannot exceed 2,000 points. Each player will vote for Best Sports at the end of the event, in the case of a tie, the highest placed player will win the award (win whilst being nice!). The Trophies available are; 1st, 2nd, 3rd Place: as above these are scored purely on the 50 gaming TPs available, with sports first tiebreak (kill points 2nd). 1st, 2nd, 3rd Best Army: these will be player judged from a nominated shortlist on the Sunday. Judges Choice Best Painted Army: this will be my favourite army at the event, entirely possible it will be one of the above 3 though. Best Sports: as above this will be based off player sports votes with the highest placed player winning in the event of a tie. The Jen Lyons Thrills not Skills Award: this will be awarded to the player who finishes last. Your name will be carried forward to my next event. Best In Alliance (Destruction, Chaos, Death & Order): these will be decided purely on Kill Points so can be won by anyone (except maybe @#SteveJames). In the unlikely event of a tie, highest placing will win. Also the Friday night Skirmish will have trophies for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, Best Warband and Best Sports *I will not use the term "3 colour minimum" as it is open for abuse. If you are unsure whether your models are painted(?!), please get in contact with me. Saturday 2nd September - BLACKOUT Day One Firestorm Games Opens: 09:00 Registration & Announcements: 09:00 - 09:30 Game One: 09:30 - 12:15 Lunch: 12:15 - 13:15 – After Game One please display you army so I can select Best Army nominees Game Two: 13:15 - 16:00 Game Three: 16:15 - 19:00 Firestorm Games Closes: 23:00 Sunday 3rd September - BLACKOUT Day Two Firestorm Games Opens: 09:00 Game Four: 09:30 - 12:15 Lunch: 12:15 - 13:15 – After Game Four the Best Army nominees will display their armies for voting Game 5: 13:15 - 16:00 Results Presentation: 16:30 - 17:00 **07/08/17 Update** This event will be played under The General's Handbook 2017!! Please see last post page 3 for more information. A full pack is to follow next week. There will also be a Skirmish event on the Friday. **05/04/17 Update** Tickets go on sale Saturday 8th April at 8pm GMT - £40 as PayPal (friends and family) to lunatic_pandora@btinternet.com (see below for more details) So I'm pleased to be able to confirm the dates as 2nd & 3rd September 2017 and more exciting, the venue; Firestorm Games, Cardiff What's even better is I'll be able to offer a capacity of 100 players! After the popularity of Tomorrow Burns in Weymouth, I figured it might be time to try my hand at a bigger event in a more easily accessible venue. As a massive fan of Cardiff events myself, this seemed an easy decision, made easier thanks to some conversations with @Mo Ashraf. I was keen to not step on any toes here and FYI I do not consider this a replacement or successor to the phenomenal Clash of Swords events Mo has run over the last few years, it's just me bringing my event to a different location. Who knows what will happen in the future, but for 2017, me bringing a big AoS event to Cardiff in the latter part of the year is just a good fit for everyone. I've also been in discussion with the Facehammer boys to ensure no clash with their Grand Tournament. There is a lot of talking behind the scenes between TO's to avoid clashes as much as possible to try and make it easier for you guys to attend multiple events. It's a testament to AoS and the strength of our scene that the calendar is being booked up almost right to the end of the year in January!! So get some dates pencilled in your calendar, start looking at hotels because they do get expensive and/or sell out in Cardiff. I've given as much notice as possible to hopefully make it easy to get yourselves sorted in good time (yeh right!!). I'm unsure when tickets will go on sale at present, so keep an eye on this topic. Chris BLACKOUT - 02-03/09/17 - Firestorm Games - PDF pack
  21. Yeh I reckon I'm down for this Mark, good dates as I don't think there is too much on in June (at the moment!). Will your donkey butcher mate be coming down with a suitable drinking vessel for us?
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