Let's chat Kharadron Overlords

[Spinsane]

Alright, I've said all I had to on the subject of paints, I won't add more fuel to the fire. I guess the fact that all I've pkayed for the past few years is 30k has significantly altered my perception on the subject...

[Sactownbri]

And a different note regarding painting, since the books only has one battle line unit - for which any player would need 3x10 models in matched play.
How does one go about painting them in a cohesive style without accidentally mixing the units on the board of they get too close? Base rims?
id rather not have to paint a blue, yellow and red unit to keep them apart.

They have shoulder badges...



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[DynamicCalories]

9 hours ago, Lecfast said:

I have decided on the market port, and have a 500-1k point starting league comming up this month. My thought (for 1k) is to take the 20 arkanaut company I have (of course, like there is any other choice), a Khemist, and fill it out with two frigates with drill thingys (for the formation).  That should give me a good chance to nail the enemy with six shots from the frigates main guns off the go, and then lead them into the arkanauts to clean up.

Do you mean skyhooks, or gunhaulers with drill cannons? Frigates only have Canons and Skyhooks as far as I can see.

[Mirage8112]

12 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Preposterous? Most "no unpainted armoes" tournaments have some basic guidelines as to what needs to be done for an army to be considered painting, so your argument is invalid. You didn't use the required "3+ colors per model" ? You're out...

You say that like it's a "gotcha" fact that proves your point. But it doesn't. The reason it doesn't, is that it has nothing to do with the ruleset. It's a requirement for entering the tournament. TO can stipulate a player must wear a banana on their head while playing Beast Claw Raiders, but that doesn't have anything to do with anything present in the ruleset. 

You are suggesting that TO's will require a specific paint scheme in order to use a given ruleset. But "No grey plastic "is a a lot different than requiring a specific paint scheme in order to use a set of rules. 3+ colors is a very lax requirement ( and if you've seen what qualifies as three colors these days, even more so). Furthermore, if you don't use three colors, you might not be able to play in said tournament, but color choices is not a qualification for the use of a particular ruleset in game. 
 

12 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Still, you dodged my question. Where do you draw the line?

If I don't like the KO models (or their price) but want to play the army, can I use Disposessed modes instead? Or Fireslayers? Can I maybe use Mantic Ironfathers?

Do you have a hard and fast limit (no non-KO models, sorry, proxies are out)? Or would you be open to biased judgement? (Man, guy A, that pirate goblins army is ace! Sure, you can play those Rum and Bones models as KO, who cares? But sorry, guy B, you can't field Genestealer Cult modes and pretend they're dwarves just because they carry mining equipment!)

What is acceptable, and what isn't?

 
I didn't dodge your question. You fully missed my point. Your logic is built upon a slippery slope. There is no reason to believe a condition is reasonable because you've drawn increasing exaggerated false equivalencies. Wanting to use the rules for a specific sky-port without using the (arbitrary) colors GW has chosen for the codex is nothing like trying to use mantic iron fathers or using stormcast in place of KO. Stop trying to prove your arguments with slippery slopes and escalating false equivalencies . 

Aside from the ridiculousness of your examples, I'll answer your (irrelevant) question: Where does the line stop for conversions, unique color schemes or personal interpretations of lore? The guidelines are fairly simple as stands in fairly standard tournament circles. if you can easily tell what the model is supposed to be, it's probably allowed. GW events must use GW models, of course, but personal style and taste has been a major part of the hobby since it's inception. I doubt most opponents will know the difference between the sky-ports if they don't play KO anymore than a stormcast player will know the colors and heraldry of a particular warrior chamber.  
 

6 hours ago, Thebiggesthat said:

Really loving the painting chat guys. Any conversation that goes round in circles without anyone being right is really interesting for everyone else!

That's pretty much what all these discussions are. You can always ignore it if it's not interesting. 

 

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

Well I think the difference is that there's nowhere in the rules published for any of those other factions, like stormcast, sylvaneth, etc. that could (and in my opinion does, but benefit of the doubt and all) directly indicate that you do need to paint the models in a certain way to play as a certain force and get the extra special rules for that force....

KO are different from other AOS armies mentioned above because this is the only force that has these specific port/chamber/grove/force membership keyed to their full-on allegiance abilities/artifacts/command traits/etc. Rather than just a little battalion bonus or something like that. 

That's not true at all. Sylvaneth wargroves all have specific colors; Gnarlroot, Ironbark, Dreadwood. Same with Stormcast Chambers named in battletome battalions. Same with Markings in disciples of Tzneeetch. Check the relevant battletomes. There was some fairly extensive talk regarding this on... bad dice podcast? One of the podcasts anyway. 

 

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

It has been noted earlier in the thread that does exist in multiple parts of the rules for the Overlords.  (i guess that sort of exists in 40k with space marine chapters although i think there GW gave more of an "out" in explicitly saying that you could build a sucessor chapter.  I suppose I have not played 40k for like 15 years, and never did tournaments back then, so i don't know if it is considered okay to show up with a bunch of space wolves and say "Hey these are Blood Angels mate.").

It mentions it, but in my reading not in concrete way. There are, after all, three different ways to play this game. The page numbers mentioned above don't seem to specifically refer to matched, open or narrative play. Even look at the wording below:

"In the case of the Kharadron Overlords, the colour scheme you choose may well determine what special rules and abilities your army will benefit from on the tabletop (pg 91)."

"May well" is different than "must". I can see colors schemes being more a factor is narrative play, where the object is to play out story about the evens befalling a specific city in the lore. But matched play is not narrative play. They have different requirements. Even if there weren't different modes of play, if a rule generally has the word "may" in it, it's a optionally permissive. "you may pick this model up and move it", doesn't mean you "must move it if you are able".  

If it you're interpreting "may" to mean "must" (which is the only way your position makes sense), then any player who paints their army with a color accepted with a given sky-port MUST use the rules of that sky port: "In the case of the Kharadron Overlords, the colour scheme you choose [must] determine what special rules and abilities your army will benefit from on the tabletop (pg 91)." In other words, if a player wants to paint an army from a home-brew sky port (something perfectly acceptable within the rules) he can't use purple, blue, yellow, red or white, because by your interpretation he'd be required to use the rules from established sky-ports in the book. That's just as ridiculous as preventing players from using a ruleset because their colors don't match. 
 

2 hours ago, Naflem said:

It's not the solely the TO that would be "doing this" by enforcing a restriction, its GW who wrote the rules the way they did.  I'll agree that GW weren't in their right mind with it..  But I'd say they weren't in their right minds with, for example, the Mourngul, either...  but that does not mean I can roll up into a tournament and tell my opponent "Oh, you've got a Mourngul?  I'm just going to ignore that -2 to hit and I'll say rend works, they were out of their minds when they made the rules for that model."

It's not a restriction as written. It's a caveat with no clear application. Saying "if you go to work today you may well up stuck in traffic" does not mean, "you must sit in traffic if you want to go to work." Units which have rules which are specific. For example, in the case of the Mourngul: "units within 1" suffer a -2 to hit in the combat phase". It perfectly clear, it says when, what and by how much. it also doesn't say "may". Look at how this changes the application of the rules if I stuck may in there: "units within 1" [may] suffer a -2 to hit in the combat phase". It totally changes the mandatory quality of the rule. 

Furthermore, the section quoted above isn't a rule per say. It's an editorial aside. Two completely different things. 

[Mirage8112]

 

2 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Alright, I've said all I had to on the subject of paints, I won't add more fuel to the fire. I guess the fact that all I've pkayed for the past few years is 30k has significantly altered my perception on the subject...

Fair enough. My last post will eb the end of it as well, since we've moved back onto list building and hobby talk. As an aside, if you've been playing 3ok for a while I see where your coming from on the paint thing. (since 30k is a marine on marine hug fest, (with only the paint colors differentiating between rule-sets)

Carry on gents!

[Dez]

Let's change subjects  Here is my latest project pics 

 

[DynamicCalories]

That's some nice tentacle sculpting! But I feel bad for yer guys.

[Dez]

I haven't reasoned out why, but I feel like the tentacles are on their side...

[Naflem]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

It mentions it, but in my reading not in concrete way. There are, after all, three different ways to play this game. The page numbers mentioned above don't seem to specifically refer to matched, open or narrative play. Even look at the wording below:

"In the case of the Kharadron Overlords, the colour scheme you choose may well determine what special rules and abilities your army will benefit from on the tabletop (pg 91)."

"May well" is different than "must". I can see colors schemes being more a factor is narrative play, where the object is to play out story about the evens befalling a specific city in the lore. But matched play is not narrative play. They have different requirements. Even if there weren't different modes of play, if a rule generally has the word "may" in it, it's a optionally permissive. "you may pick this model up and move it", doesn't mean you "must move it if you are able".  

If it you're interpreting "may" to mean "must" (which is the only way your position makes sense), then any player who paints their army with a color accepted with a given sky-port MUST use the rules of that sky port: "In the case of the Kharadron Overlords, the colour scheme you choose [must] determine what special rules and abilities your army will benefit from on the tabletop (pg 91)." In other words, if a player wants to paint an army from a home-brew sky port (something perfectly acceptable within the rules) he can't use purple, blue, yellow, red or white, because by your interpretation he'd be required to use the rules from established sky-ports in the book. That's just as ridiculous as preventing players from using a ruleset because their colors don't match. 
 

It's not a restriction as written. It's a caveat with no clear application. Saying "if you go to work today you may well up stuck in traffic" does not mean, "you must sit in traffic if you want to go to work." Units which have rules which are specific. For example, in the case of the Mourngul: "units within 1" suffer a -2 to hit in the combat phase". It perfectly clear, it says when, what and by how much. it also doesn't say "may". Look at how this changes the application of the rules if I stuck may in there: "units within 1" [may] suffer a -2 to hit in the combat phase". It totally changes the mandatory quality of the rule. 

Furthermore, the section quoted above isn't a rule per say. It's an editorial aside. Two completely different things. 

I'm not interpreting "may well" to mean "must"; I'm interpreting it to mean "may well."  - the Must interpretation is not the only way my position makes sense, and that is due to the existence of the homebrew skyport rules (and also note the fact that the sentence on page 76has to be read in consideration of page 91 which is specifically cited in the parentheses; page 91 says you can benefit from special rules by organizing your collection into a specific sky port and it also says that you organize your collection into a specific sky port by painting it a certain way).  Basically, there are 7 options (one of which has a ton of sub-options) for the KO allegiance ability - 

1. Barak-Nar, page 92 - Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

2. Barak-Zilfin page 93 - Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

3. Barak-Zon page 94 - Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

4. Barak-Urbaz page 95 -  Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

5. Barak-Mhorner page 96 - Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

6. Barak-Thryng page 97 - Use of these rules requires a specific color scheme.

7. Endless Skies Page 99 - You can choose any of of something like 200 combination of rules from this page, and use of any of those rules does not require a specific paint scheme, so feel free to paint your overlords green, blue, pink, yellow, or polka dot.

If you choose 1-6 your color scheme will have to match and will/"must" control whether you can access the special rules.  If you choose 7 (or any of the options that make up 7), then your color scheme has no relevance to the rules or abilities that your army will benefit from on the tabletop.  Ergo, the choice of a color scheme "may well" (but does not necessarily, because a pokadot scheme has no bearing on what rules on page 99 you can use) determine what special rules and abilities your army will benefit from on the tabletop.     

 

In any case, even if I was interpreting "may well" as "must", that would make a fair bit more sense than interpreting "may well" as "never will."  The very fact that the language on page 76 and 91 exists makes it more likely that the language means something rather than means nothing.

[kozokus]

Anyway, you can play Barak Mhornar with any color shemes, just say that they try to confuse the ennemy (FLUFF!).

 

[Naflem]

I am not sure i see my KO being a tournament army...  not because they are underpowered but because i felt like my recently built frigate was wobbling and feeling like it was gonna snap off at the flying stem while i was taking it downstairs..  i can hardly imagine leaving the house with it or going to another town with it!  Anyone else having issues/know a source for replacement stems? (lol)

[Dez]

I think mine will be on the base permanently...via tentacles!

[Naflem]

4 minutes ago, Dez said:

I think mine will be on the base permanently...via tentacles!

LoL, brilliant plan for the stability alone.  Maybe I can model some goblins with a ladder...  

[Lecfast]

I kinda want to see if I can base it by making it look like steam is being vented from the valves...

[Well of Eternity]

Ok., so finally i played few battles (1k) with Kharadrons and their firepower is amazing. Against Nurgle Rotbringers (Harbinger, 2x10 warriors, 10x Knights with mk. of nurgle, 1x poionwind mortar) and Sylvaneth (Branchywch, Branchwraith, 2x3 Kurnscythes, 1x3 Kurnbows, 2x10 dryads) i just tabled my opponents in turn 4. My army:

Mhornar
Arkanaut Admiral - general
Khemist - Earbuster
20 x Arkanaut, 6 x Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut, 3 x Skyhooks
5 x Thunderers, 5 x Grundstok Mortars
1 x Arkanaut Frigate

 

[FractalRain]

7 hours ago, Well of Eternity said:

Ok., so finally i played few battles (1k) with Kharadrons and their firepower is amazing. Against Nurgle Rotbringers (Harbinger, 2x10 warriors, 10x Knights with mk. of nurgle, 1x poionwind mortar) and Sylvaneth (Branchywch, Branchwraith, 2x3 Kurnscythes, 1x3 Kurnbows, 2x10 dryads) i just tabled my opponents in turn 4. My army:

Mhornar
Arkanaut Admiral - general
Khemist - Earbuster
20 x Arkanaut, 6 x Skyhooks
10 x Arkanaut, 3 x Skyhooks
5 x Thunderers, 5 x Grundstok Mortars
1 x Arkanaut Frigate

 

So, did you mean that the 5 Thunderers you used had mortars, or did you have 10 total?  Care to share your tactics with us?

[Spinsane]

2 hours ago, FractalRain said:

So, did you mean that the 5 Thunderers you used had mortars, or did you have 10 total?  Care to share your tactics with us?

With 5 Thunderers all armed withMortars, the army comes up to 940pts, and he'd be at 1040 with10 Thunderers, so I assume he only had 5...

[Well of Eternity]

2 hours ago, Spinsane said:

With 5 Thunderers all armed withMortars, the army comes up to 940pts, and he'd be at 1040 with10 Thunderers, so I assume he only had 5...

5 Thunderers but I`m thinking about replace Admiral with second Khemist. My tactics is quite simple - i crewed frigate with smaller unit of arkanauts and thunderers (reducing number of drops) and trying to disembark on marker (Mhornar ability to run and shoot in first round). Most important thing is target priority - i choose most dangerous enemy unit and trying to shoot them out (even if whole my army is involved), next i`m trying to slow down enemy with quite strong and resilient (14 wound) frigate and buy some time for next (or possibly another one) turn of concentrate shooting into another enemy unit. Buffing big (20 arkanaut) unit with six skyhooks with khemist give me 12 bolts of death (with re-roll from command ability of barak-mhornar it`s deadly for most enemy units on table in 1k game).

 

[Aezeal]

Khemist should probably get some kind of nerf by getting a higher point value :D. Where the bow hunters able to kill anything? 

[Well of Eternity]

6 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Khemist should probably get some kind of nerf by getting a higher point value :D. Where the bow hunters able to kill anything? 

Bowhunters are unpredictable. They can shoot hero in one turn or barely scratch him in other (i know something about this because Sylvaneth are my primary army )In last game they take off admiral and two wounds on Khemist (and half unit of 10 Arkanaut so... not bad ). Big problem with them (playing against) is their mobility - they can teleport anywhere near Sylvaneth Wyldwood so it`s very hard to find some safe cover for Kharadron (squishy) heroes.

[Aezeal]

2 minutes ago, Well of Eternity said:

Bowhunters are unpredictable. They can shoot hero in one turn or barely scratch him in other (i know something about this because Sylvaneth are my primary army )In last game they take off admiral and two wounds on Khemist (and half unit of 10 Arkanaut so... not bad ). Big problem with them (playing against) is their mobility - they can teleport anywhere near Sylvaneth Wyldwood so it`s very hard to find some safe cover for Kharadron (squishy) heroes.

He didn't target the Khemist first? 

[christophe]

hello guys. Blood Bowl 2016 pushed me back to the hobby 6 months ago (after a 20 years break), and KO convinced me to spend a kidney on AoS (got a Seraphon and Nurgle army as well to practice painting waiting for the KO releases...).

I plan to paint my army blue/bronze/light grey, but often change skyport to try more tactics (my kids will not mind), and give each boat a different feel (I personally prefer fluff and modelism over the game aspect).

1 dark blue frigate pirate style, with canon, messy uniforms grapel skywarden guys on board.

1 frigate kraken hunter style, nordic colors, lots of skyhook and axes, maybe a dozen of dwarf shields on the boat flanks to give a viking/barak Thryng vibe.

1 Iron Clad, more regal and military, ultramarine and gold, riffles, swords, explorers on board...

And thank you all for the super useful content of this thread !!!

[Well of Eternity]

14 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

He didn't target the Khemist first? 

He did but only took two wounds (poor rolls). In second turn i hide him behind wall and i had to stay my general - admiral on open ground (because of his Mhornar-command-ability) so he killed him in turn three (in turn two he only took 3 wounds on him). As i said - Kurnbows are big gamble but still very dangerous.

[Siegfried VII]

I haven't got my hands on the book yet so I thought I make a question here. Can one put any Order units/heroes in an Ironclad or is it only reserved for the units having the Kharadron keyword/allegiance.

I ask because if you can put any order units inside it opens up huge strategic possibilities...

[Dez]

Just now, Siegfried VII said:

I haven't got my hands on the book yet so I thought I make a question here. Can one put any Order units/heroes in an Ironclad or is it only reserved for the units having the Kharadron keyword/allegiance.

I ask because if you can put any order units inside it opens up huge strategic possibilities...

Only Skyfarers, you can see it on the Warscroll which you can download for free from Games Workshop website