Hero phase pile in moves

[gmulroney]

So I'm noticing a lot more hero phase pile in moves and I was wondering, do you have to be within 3" of an enemy unit to take advantage of these moves, or can you use them no matter what? In the rules it states that during the c at phase you can choose a unit to attack with that is within 3" of any enemy of charged, and part of the attack is a pile in. But it doesn't seem to explicitly say that pile in moves require the unit to be within 3" of an enemy. 

[Ratamaplata]

Also, I read it that you don't have to be able to make combat you just get to pile in 8".

It's a bonus 8" movement but with the drawback it has to be towards the nearest model?

[BaldoBeardo]

Also, I read it that you don't have to be able to make combat you just get to pile in 8".
It's a bonus 8" movement but with the drawback it has to be towards the nearest model?

...Aaaaaaand this is exactly why I'm in the you-must-be-within-three camp on this. There's points on both sides, but 'standard pile-in rules apply' is the least advantageous option. That's the way TO's and GW most commonly seem to go when making rulings on ambiguous/incongruent wordings.

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[Ratamaplata]

2 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

...Aaaaaaand this is exactly why I'm in the you-must-be-within-three camp on this. There's points on both sides, but 'standard pile-in rules apply' is the least advantageous option. That's the way TO's and GW most commonly seem to go when making rulings on ambiguous/incongruent wordings.

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But why does it have to be the least advantageous option?

Surely it's a really appropriate ability for Khorne and it's not like others don't have extremely powerful hero-phase movement/attack rules.

[BaldoBeardo]

Because we're now at the point where one of the options being suggested by interpretation is simply an 8" wander across the board, to the point where calling it a "pile-in" is irrelevant.

All I said was that in previous FAQ and TO rulings I'm aware of, the 'least broken' interpretation is typically the one that's upheld.

I have no further evidence to add to either side of the discussion that hasn't already been raised.

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[Allornone]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

All of these extra pile in rules in the hero phase (there are plenty, e.g. Tzaangor Coven, Godsworn Champions) have a similar ambiguity, they say "if A and B, then you can pile in and attack" or the like. One could quite easily interpret this as A and B being necessary and sufficient conditions (or an exhaustive list of the requirements for being able to pile in). They could have included C (if the unit is within 3" of an enemy unit), but instead there may be an assumption that this core rule also applies.  

The point is that "if the unit is within 3" of an enemy unit" or "do it as you'll do in the combat phase" is actually included in most of these. To my knowledge the Mighty Lord is the only one without it.

[BaldoBeardo]

If you're within 3" of an enemy unit or have charged, you may attack.
Step 1 of attacking is piling in, so it's bound by the caveat.
(Although not aware of any units that specifically can pile-in and *not* attack?)


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[gmulroney]

Well one instance of unit being able to make a pile in move without attacking is the leaked rules for the Goretide battalion in the Blades of Khorne book. It allows the Mighty Lord Of Khorne to make an 8" pile in move during the hero phase

[rokapoke]

18 minutes ago, gmulroney said:

Well one instance of unit being able to make a pile in move without attacking is the leaked rules for the Goretide battalion in the Blades of Khorne book. It allows the Mighty Lord Of Khorne to make an 8" pile in move during the hero phase

That doesn't change the requirements -- as I see it, you still have to be within 3" of an enemy unit, per the 4-page rules. The exception made in the Goretide battalion changes his pile-in distance but doesn't say anything about changing whether or not he's eligible to pile in. The extra distance allows you to place him in a more advantageous position.

[LordRogalDorn]

Without fly, or the ability to go over models, the extra distance doesn't really help all that much, because you still have to end closer to the closest model than you started. I know you don't have to move in a straight line towards the closest model, but that extra distance will mostly be wasted if it ever comes up at all.

 

Edits:

This line of reasoning is applicable if there is a requirement to have charged or be within 3 inches of an enemy model to pile in. If that requirement doesn't exist, then piling in 8 inches towards the nearest enemy model is totally a useful thing. 

[Allornone]

4 hours ago, rokapoke said:

That doesn't change the requirements -- as I see it, you still have to be within 3" of an enemy unit, per the 4-page rules. The exception made in the Goretide battalion changes his pile-in distance but doesn't say anything about changing whether or not he's eligible to pile in. The extra distance allows you to place him in a more advantageous position.

The requirements are only for attacking in the combat phase. Pile in is part of attacking but is not restricted in any way. Also the faqs differentiate the types of movements you can do, and it says nothing about any requirement for the pile in move, except for the fact that it must end nearer to your enemies.

 

[Allornone]

It's the same as with Charging, for which usually there is the requirement of being within 12" of an enemy units, but there are abilities that allows you to do it without that restriction (like the Khorne Slaughterborn battalion, or grots fanatics).

Let's remember that there are lots of abilities that only allows you to pile in and attack in the hero phase if you are within 3" of an enemy, like the Khorne Blood Host, or others that allows you to do it like if it was the combat phase (the Deadwatch Battalion) so it follows the same restriction. 

But the Mighty Lord in the Goretide has not those requirements, and considering that otherwise the 8" lenght would be completely useless I think it's like it was intended.

[Jharen]

The closest rule regarding this is located in the FAQ and it uses an example happening in the combat phase, not the hero phase.

 

Q: If a unit, like a High Elf Prince on Griffon, has the ability to pile in 6" rather than the standard 3", can they pile in and attack in the combat phase if their unit is more than 3" from the enemy?

A: No, unless specifically stated otherwise.

[BaldoBeardo]

Well one instance of unit being able to make a pile in move without attacking is the leaked rules for the Goretide battalion in the Blades of Khorne book. It allows the Mighty Lord Of Khorne to make an 8" pile in move during the hero phase

'You can pile in up to 8" and attack'.
That's a normal attack, except he has an 8" pile-in. He's not excepted from the standard 3" caveat.

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[Nico]

I do wonder about this one as there's almost no possible need for an 8" distance if it is limited to the usual 3" range (going in a huge loop around friendly models?). I suspect 50% chance it's an error - they may have intended to include the Yhettee wording.

[Jharen]

Normally an 8" pile in would be next to useless, but this is happening in the hero phase.  It's possible that with slain model removal and battleshock removal from the previous turn that this could open up more possibilities for an 8 inch pile in to come into play.  I'd play it safe and assume you need to be within 3" to use this though until it's FAQed.

If the wording said "pile in 8" and attack" then we'd certainly be saying "yes you need to be within 3 to use it".  So it boiled down to the lack of the phrase "and attack".  I personally don't think it lacking those words changes how piling in at its core works in every other given situation we've been presented with in the rules.

[Spinsane]

I don't think the 3" limit applies here.

 

Everyone who's more than 3" from the nearest enemy in the combat phase does not get a pile-in move.

But this isn't the combat phase, it's the hero phase, so that restriction shouldn't apply. All we know is the move is 8" and has to bring the model closer to the nearest opponent; I don't see any additional limit...

[Nico]

All of these extra pile in rules in the hero phase (there are plenty, e.g. Tzaangor Coven, Godsworn Champions) have a similar ambiguity, they say "if A and B, then you can pile in and attack" or the like. One could quite easily interpret this as A and B being necessary and sufficient conditions (or an exhaustive list of the requirements for being able to pile in). They could have included C (if the unit is within 3" of an enemy unit), but instead there may be an assumption that this core rule also applies. 

I've assumed this to be the case, which generally means that such rules are pretty weak (they kick in far too late in the game to matter unless you get a double turn and make a charge in the first of the two turns) - if they gave you a cheeky 3" move in your first hero phase then that would be significantly better (basically like a Destruction move).  

[BaldoBeardo]

Also, it's not entirely useless even with the 3" caveat. Especially if your opponent is trying (say) to shield his Runesmiter with a Magmadroth...

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[Spinsane]

While I'd have been tempted to say the 3" restriction applies at all times, having taken a closer look at the FAQ, I think I have to disagree.

The Warhammer AoS: The Rules FAQ states, on page 3:

Quote

Type of Move : Pile-in
Move Distance : 3"
Restrictions : Each model must finish the move closer to the nearest enemy model than they were at the start of the move.

Since we already have confirmation that the only restriction on Pile-in moves is that the model finishes closer to the nearest enemy model, we must assume that outside combat, the within 3 inches restriction is not applicable as it is not listed as a permanent Pile-in restriction.

[RuneBrush]

Unsurprisingly there's lots of differing views on this.  It wouldn't surprise me it we don't see an FAQ for the Battletome appear to clarify this.  My own interpretation is yes the Mighty Lord can pile in 8" and then attack, regardless of how far away they are.

Here's my justification:

This is the rule for working out what units are eligible to attack in the combat phase.  A pile in move is simply Step 1 of attacking and makes sure you're as close to the enemy as possible.  As we don't have to pick a unit to attack with, the above block of text is not used - the ability has already said that you can pile in and attack.  In fact the ability makes no reference to the combat phase at all so the above text is even more redundant in this case.

Personally this is also reinforced by the new The Bloodlords battalion (also new for BoK) which grants a hero phase pile in and attack - it states both "as if it were the combat phase" and "within 3" of enemy models" at the end of the Murderous Lieutenants ability.

[Nico]

Quote

Personally this is also reinforced by the new The Bloodlords battalion (also new for BoK) which grants a hero phase pile in and attack - it states both "as if it were the combat phase" and "within 3" of enemy models" at the end of the Murderous Lieutenants ability.

The final point is a strong one. If they meant to include that restriction in the other rule in the same book, it should be there too. 

It's not so strong in the context of the DoT book.

[Allornone]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

The final point is a strong one. If they meant to include that restriction in the other rule in the same book, it should be there too. 

It's not so strong in the context of the DoT book.

Yeah, in the book there are seven battalion that give   similar abilities. Of them the only ones without a 3" or similar restriction is the Goretide, the Charnel Cohort and the Bloodlords, which are notable in that they have two abilities, one for heroes with restrictions and one for bloodletters near those heroes without.

[Xasz]

Quote

on the 2nd point, we'll pass it on to the rules guys, in case they want to make a call on it in future.
We mere mortals in the Community Team have been playing it as the full 8' pile in - Charge!

Someone asked about the "Aqshy's Bane" pile in on Facebook.

[Kurrilino]

I guess we make it way to complicated here.

His rules say he can pile in 8" period.  There is no if and when, especially when other unit rules in the same book have

the if's and when's. I also have difficulties to believe that they make rules for the newest book which are not applying to the game at all.

This reminds me of the "magic vs enscorcered weapons" debate from 8th edition.

This undead unit X is immune against magic weapons not against enscorcered weapons despite they are creating magic attacks.

If i remember right the Skull Crusher were the problem and people came to their senses understanding, if GW wanted them to have magic weapons they would have written so.

 

Just my 2 cents

[Gilby]

There is no rule that says you can only pile in if you are within 3" that is simply an over simplification as 99% of the time it is true. The rules as they are written:

 

• Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit can attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase...An attack is split into two steps: first the unit piles in, and then you make attacks with the models in the unit.

 

Most of the time a unit that charged (which must leave you within 0.5" of the enemy) will be within 3". However, if say a Stonehorn charges and kills the nearest few models it might not be within 3". Can it pile in and attack?

 

Yes. "Any unit that has charged or has models within 3" of an enemy unit."

 

It fulfills the requirement of being a model that charged. But the Mighty Lord of Khorne is neither 3" from the enemy, nor has he charged, so he can't pile in then?

 

No. This is simply the rule for selecting a unit to "attack with its melee weapons in the combat phase" where an attack is described as a pile in and attacks with the weapons. 

 

The rule says that he can pile in 8" and attack in the hero phase. The only requirement for this is that you can actually attack at the end of the pile in as it is necessary to fulfill both parts of an 'and' clause to do either.