Hero phase pile in moves

[gmulroney]

So I'm noticing a lot more hero phase pile in moves and I was wondering, do you have to be within 3" of an enemy unit to take advantage of these moves, or can you use them no matter what? In the rules it states that during the c at phase you can choose a unit to attack with that is within 3" of any enemy of charged, and part of the attack is a pile in. But it doesn't seem to explicitly say that pile in moves require the unit to be within 3" of an enemy. 

[Mirage8112]

Except that those are already listed in the rules as things that apply to all kinds of movement regardless of the phase. Something you can't say about being within 3".
To quote you, try again.

You what else is listed in the rules? Not being able to pile in outside of 3". Movement rules apply to all phases (as you say) pile in is a type of movement.

This is my last response since all this has already been covered in my posts above. I'm happy to discuss new info but I hate rehashing arguments I've already made. If you've something new to add please do. Otherwise we'll just have to wait for the FAQ


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[Mirage8112]

So, in the end the 3" restriction is stated to happen only in the combat phase (and the 6" pile in faq says the same thing), we have a faq that say that things relevant to a phase are relevant only to that phase and not to others and the 3" restriction is not listed in the restrictions inherent to the pile in move. 
Also that faq that you are using for the argument that restrictions carry over in other phases explicitly list the pile in restrictions that do carry over, but "being within 3" is not among them.
 
You have a big argument based on assumptions, but not really one based on actual rulings.

That's incorrect. The FAQ your referring to was clarifying the fact that certain abilities are phase dependent (i.e. -1 to hit in the combat phase, re-rolling saves in the shooting phase ect). That is to say just because you re-roll armor saves in the shooting phase, doesn't mean you can reroll armor saves in the hero phase.

It doesn't mean you can ignore the restriction on that type of movement because it's in a different phase. You might as well be arguing you can't take armor saved against those attacks because you make cc saves in the combat phase.

No that's dumb. Pile ins are a type of movement, GW has said movement restriction apply no matter what phase it's in unless the ability explicitly says so. The ability does not specifically give an exemption to the 3" rule.

Try again.


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[Allornone]

14 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

It also didn't list the fact that models can't move through enemy models or that they can't pile in through walls. Does that mean they can as well?


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Except that those are already listed in the rules as things that apply to all kinds of movement regardless of the phase. Something you can't say about being within 3".

To quote you, try again.

[Mirage8112]

Still you continue to ignore that GW listed what movement restrictions apply no matter the phase. Being within 3" is not on that list.

It also didn't list the fact that models can't move through enemy models or that they can't pile in through walls. Does that mean they can as well?


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[Allornone]

2 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

You might be correct if it wasn't for the FAQ on the high Elf prince. Having an extended range for pile ins don't change the fact that you must be in combat to use them, and you aren't IN combat if you're outside 3".

Ok. I'm bored now. We've made our respective cases. Just wait for the FAQ




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The high elf prince rule don't give you any permission to pile in. It gives you permission to move 6" when you do, but as it doesn't say anything related you still need to default to the standard rules for being permitted to pile in in the first place. And the standard rules only permit you if you are within 3" or have charged.

That's fundamentally different from the Goretide rule that instead give you permission to pile in a way in addition to the standard circumstances.

[Mirage8112]

i also have to agree that you need to be within 3" unless (specified to be able to pile at a further distance ) the distance you can pile in. so say 6" is still required to be within 3" in order to activate it. so scyla can pile in 6" and jump over things, so he can pile in and jump over and run around things, allowing more models to get into combat. not to pile in from a further distance away. otherwise you never need to successfully charge, you just plop the model 5.9" away and pile in  

Exactly.

You sir, win the Internet.


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[Allornone]

Scylla has nothing to do with this case.

Bestial Leap: Scyla’s bestial form is capable of great leaps that take him over the heads of lesser foes. When Scyla piles in, he can move up to 6" and can move over enemy models. Furthermore, he does not have to move towards the closest enemy model, as long as he ends his move within 2" of more enemy models than before he piled in.

And the one of the Prince, for comparison

Predatory Leap: The Prince’s Griffon can carry him high over the battle line directly to his chosen foe. When this model piles in it can move up to 6" and can move over enemy models. Furthermore, it does not have to move towards the closest enemy model, as long as it ends its move within ½" of an enemy unit.

As the Bold part show, this rule still default to the standard way to determine if you are allowed to pile in. The Goretide does not. And I add that this rule also allow him to not move towards the closest enemy model, so that its enhanced pile in distance is not useless as it would be if it was still forced to do that. 

Also I feel a lot of people are conflating two unrelated questions. The point is when a model can pile-in, not how much he can move when he do.  The debate would be the same if the Goretide rule didn't include the "up to 8" part". Rules that modify the pile-in distance when you pile in have nothing to do with this debate. You should base yourself on other rules that allow pile-in in unusual situations, not rules that alter how you do it when you do it. 


 

[Ratamaplata]

Also, I read it that you don't have to be able to make combat you just get to pile in 8".

It's a bonus 8" movement but with the drawback it has to be towards the nearest model?

[BaldoBeardo]

Also, I read it that you don't have to be able to make combat you just get to pile in 8".
It's a bonus 8" movement but with the drawback it has to be towards the nearest model?

...Aaaaaaand this is exactly why I'm in the you-must-be-within-three camp on this. There's points on both sides, but 'standard pile-in rules apply' is the least advantageous option. That's the way TO's and GW most commonly seem to go when making rulings on ambiguous/incongruent wordings.

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[Ratamaplata]

2 hours ago, BaldoBeardo said:

...Aaaaaaand this is exactly why I'm in the you-must-be-within-three camp on this. There's points on both sides, but 'standard pile-in rules apply' is the least advantageous option. That's the way TO's and GW most commonly seem to go when making rulings on ambiguous/incongruent wordings.

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But why does it have to be the least advantageous option?

Surely it's a really appropriate ability for Khorne and it's not like others don't have extremely powerful hero-phase movement/attack rules.

[BaldoBeardo]

Because we're now at the point where one of the options being suggested by interpretation is simply an 8" wander across the board, to the point where calling it a "pile-in" is irrelevant.

All I said was that in previous FAQ and TO rulings I'm aware of, the 'least broken' interpretation is typically the one that's upheld.

I have no further evidence to add to either side of the discussion that hasn't already been raised.

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[Mirage8112]

Except that's wrong. It doesn't exist a rule that say that you can't pile in if you are not within 3". It exist a rule that say you can pile in if you are within 3" in the combat phase
There is a big difference between a rule that say what we can do and a rule that say what we can't. AoS is a permissive ruleset. It means that to do something you need to be allowed by a rule. Once you are permitted to do something you can do it as you wish unless there is a rule that say that you can't.
Here we have the combat rules that give us permission under certain conditions (namely being within 3" or having charged and being in the combat phase) and the  Goretide special rule that give us permission with others (being in the hero phase, being the Mighty Lord of Khorne of the battalion). Which means that as long as you fullfill those requirements and you don't go against other rules you can pile in. 

You might be correct if it wasn't for the FAQ on the high Elf prince. Having an extended range for pile ins don't change the fact that you must be in combat to use them, and you aren't IN combat if you're outside 3".

Ok. I'm bored now. We've made our respective cases. Just wait for the FAQ




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[Allornone]

So, in the end the 3" restriction is stated to happen only in the combat phase (and the 6" pile in faq says the same thing), we have a faq that say that things relevant to a phase are relevant only to that phase and not to others and the 3" restriction is not listed in the restrictions inherent to the pile in move. 

Also that faq that you are using for the argument that restrictions carry over in other phases explicitly list the pile in restrictions that do carry over, but "being within 3" is not among them.

 

You have a big argument based on assumptions, but not really one based on actual rulings.

[Allornone]

Also, we have FAQs that state the exact opposite, namely that things that happens specifically in a stated phase don't happens in other phases even if you are doing the same thing. And it explicitly doesn't include "being within 3"" in the restrictions inherent to the pile in move.

 

Q: Several abilities allow a unit to make a move ‘as though it were the movement phase’. Does this allow them to make use of abilities or special rules that normally only apply in the movement phase? For example, in the hero phase a unit of Kurnoth Hunters in a Free Spirits Battalion can move as though it were the movement phase. Would this allow them to make use of the Forest Spirits battle trait, where a unit can be transported to the battlefield in the movement phase? A: No, it does not. All it means is that the move is made as though it were the movement phase, so the distance the unit moves will be based on its Move characteristic, it can’t move within 3" of an enemy model, it can run and retreat (but if it does so it will have counted as having run or retreated for the rest of the turn), and so on. Furthermore, abilities that specifically state they can only be used in a certain phase can only be used in that phase and/or their effects will only apply in that phase. 

 

So, if an ability says you can use it in your movement phase, it can only be used and its effects will only apply in your movement phase, if it says it can be used in your shooting phase, you can only use it and its effects will only apply in your shooting phase, and so on

 

[Allornone]

12 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

 

[Spinsane]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Lol these arguments are pretty much entirely our own opinion aren't they?

 

At least I'm not referring to inexistant rulings...

You keep on saying rulings all agree with your interpretation, and yet still haven't been able to quote even a single one that does. In the FAQ, every instance that refers to an action being resolved as it would in another (i.e. Pile in as in the Combat phase) all are rules that already said so on their warscroll. Those were not rulings, just clarifications.

[Mirage8112]

Would you care to elaborate? I've read through every single FAQ entry and couldn't even find a single place where they ruled that an entry which didn't already include a as in the X Phase should be played that way.
Your whole argument is therefore, unless you actually CAN point to those "numerous occasions", built on nothing but your own opinion...

Lol these arguments are pretty much entirely our own opinion aren't they? That is to say our opinion based off FAQs and the current rule set. If it was clear cut, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

As I said above I've presented a pretty clear cut case for my position, all of my reasoning and references are there. The last thing I want to do is just restate everything I've already said.

I might just add however, that burden of proof is always on the affirmative. If you want to argue that a unit can do something, you have to give a clear cut justification why. I don't see enough evidence from you that you can use an 8" pile in outside of 3". Especially considering GW has already ruled against that interpretation in a previous case (Bolstered by the fact that the only unit in the game that can pile in outside of 3" has a warscroll that explicitly says so.)

Add to that the rulings regarding out of sequence moves and I have to say I see where your coming from, I really do, but ultimately I don't find your logic convincing.

Pile-ins only happen when the attacker is within 3", unless GW rules otherwise (which ill admit is possible, I have been wrong before).




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[Spinsane]

1 hour ago, Mirage8112 said:

 GW has already ruled, on numerous occasions, that when units use an ability out-of-phase they are still subject to the "normal" restrictions on that action.  

Would you care to elaborate? I've read through every single FAQ entry and couldn't even find a single place where they ruled that an entry which didn't already include a as in the X Phase should be played that way.

Your whole argument is therefore, unless you actually CAN point to those "numerous occasions", built on nothing but your own opinion...

[Mirage8112]

Goodness. Salty much? 

I'm going to address all the points in turn, and then I'll pretty much leave it at that unless anyone has anything new to add. 
 

3 hours ago, Spinsane said:

While I have to admit this is how I read the rules, the way the FAQ has been worded means I have to side, until a clearer ruling comes out, with those that claim the within 3" restriction does not currently apply outside the Combat Phase.

Your example clearly highlights this: the FAQ clearly restricts normal movement to >3" away in all phases, clearly indicating that the restriction applies beyond the originaly specified Phase, whereas it does not do as such for the restriction on Pile-ins...

The FAQ was addressing a particular warscroll, (at the time this FAQ was released I believe the High Elf Prince on a Griffon was the only model in the game that had an ability that allowed him to pile in more than 3". So it's no surprise it addresses the combat phase in particular). But the global rule implication is that any model which makes a pile in can't do so unless it's already within 3" of an enemy.

It's clear enough that the High Elf Prince on a Griffon's ability only applies to the combat phase. However, phases do not inherently give actions their rules. When you choose to "move" a model, the rules for doing so are detailed in the section of the rules that deals most frequently with movement, i.e. the movement phase. It's not the phase itself that allows you to move models a certain distance, the phase is when you are able to activate a unit and use whatever movement or abilities it has. GW has already ruled, on numerous occasions, that when units use an ability out-of-phase they are still subject to the "normal" restrictions on that action. I.e. you can use the destruction ability "rampaging destroyers" (which gives a unit a D6 "regular" move in the hero phase) to retreat from combat (something which the rules say explicitly happens "in the movement phase") but if you do, you cannot shoot or charge in that turn. Just because it happens in a different phase doesn't mean it can retreat and then charge. 

3 hours ago, Spinsane said:

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

the FAQ straight up states that the distance of the pile in does not change the 3" requirement. 

I'm sorry but you're derailing the question, that's not what I was arguing here...

A model that can Pile-in 6" still has to be within 3" to Pile-in during the Combat Phase, as has been pointed out. That is not being questioned, it's a clear cut answer.

Whether or not the within 3" restriction applies to Pile-ins outside the Combat Phase has not been clarified, however, and the only restriction that the FAQ enforces is that the model finishes closer to the closed enemy, it doesn't say the model/unit had to be within 3" at the beginning of the Pile-In move.

I'm not derailing the question at all. I'm pointing out that that particular FAQ clarified that the models must be within 3" when piling in. The restrictions your quoting only apply once a model can pile in, because the original question the FAQ writers were replying to was regarding how model moves not if  a model can move. Go back a read the preceding paragraph and you should be able to see what I mean.

The question we're addressing is "if" a model can pile in outside of 3" in the hero phase, not "how" it makes that move. Those are two different questions. 

I completely understand your point that the question is whether or not that restriction is phase dependent. But GW has rules that movement that takes place outside the movement phase is still subject to the restrictions for moving. And if you do move out of combat it does count as retreating (as I mentioned above, the 4 page rules even explicitly say that retreating happens "during the movement phase." In more than one ruling GW has clarified that out-of-sequence actions are still for all intents and purposes "regular" actions that just happen out of sequence. Any deviations from the norm have to be explicit, and since this particular ability is explicit about the deviation from the normal distance (8") but not the prohibition that pile-ins must take place within 3", I have to assume that all the normal rules apply. 

GW has ruled consistently in regards to out of sequence actions. I have no reason to think they would rule otherwise on this point.

3 hours ago, Spinsane said:

Also, please compare the following very similar Battalion rules from the new Khorne book:

Bloodlords: Any Bloodletter Heroes from the Bloodlords that are within 3" of any enemy models at the start of your hero phase...
Skullfiend Tribe:  If any unit from the Skullfiend Tribe are within 3" of any enemy Heroes or Monsters at the start of your hero phase...
vs
Goretide: In each of your hero phases, you can pile in up to 8"...

Why is it that GW thought it necessary to specify, for the Bloodlords and Skullfiend Tribe battalions, that the 3" rule applies if it

 
I'm not entirely comfortable commenting on "why" things are designed the way they are. My assumption is that it's because the first two examples require that you be in a certain position "at the start of your hero phase" (wording not shared by the Goretide.) This might be important because there a fair number of abilities that allow models an extra move and/or charges in the hero phase. Perhaps it worded that way so models "outside" of 3" can't be bumped by such abilities and then attack since "the start" of the hero phase would have passed. If I had to guess why, I say it's probably a balancing factor. 
 

4 hours ago, Spinsane said:

So while I wish I could agree with you, the way the FAQ has been written has me relucantly do otherwise.

It's odd because you keep holding onto the fact that the only "restriction" detailed by that particular section (even though it has nothing to do with "if a model can pile in") is that it must finish closer to the nearest enemy model than it started. But that isn't the only restriction is it? It can't move through friendly models. It can't move through walls or off the board. It can't move through enemy models to end up "behind" the closest enemy model. There are a few other restrictions beside the ones detailed in that box, but it does mention that particular restriction because thats the only one relevant to the differences between moves/charges/pile-ins. It has nothing to do with whether or not a model is allowed to make those actions. 
 

2 hours ago, Allornone said:

The question was if he could use it IN THE COMBAT PHASE.

I get that. But the rules still apply no matter what phase it's in. GW has ruled that way for other out-of-sequence actions and I see no reason why pile-ins would gain a special exception. 
 

2 hours ago, Allornone said:

Not really. As you can see the while not ending within 3" is clearly spelled in the restriction of a regular move, the only restrictions about the Pile In move is that you must end closer to your enemy.

Already covered, see above re: the difference between "if" and "how". 
 

2 hours ago, Allornone said:

Good job cutting your image so it doesn't show the restriction of the pile in move, and the fact that it lack anything regarding a 3" distance.

Don't get sassy with me missy. My point was regarding movement that happens out of sequence, not pile-ins. I cut it because it wasn't relevant to my point.  
 

2 hours ago, Allornone said:

So basically the faq you are using to support your point actually is against you if you read it in it's entirety instead of just halfway.

You obviously didn't read the preceding paragraph. You didn't see that the section you were quoting was regarding the differences between regular moves, pile-ins and charges. The section had nothing to do with whether or not your allowed to move/pile-in/charge; which (incidentally) is what we're discussing.

 

1 hour ago, Allornone said:

Also, if the 3" restriction was inherent to the pile in move instead to the Combat Phase, why we have the same restriction added to very similar abilities?

Tzaangor Coven:  "May pile and attack as if it were the combat phase"
Deadwatch: "In your hero phase, you can make a pile in move and attack with each Deadwatch unit as if it were the combat phase"
Blood Host of Khorne: "Within 3" of an enemy"
Bloodlords: "Within 3" of an enemy"
Skullfiend Tribe: "within 3" of an Hero or a Monster". 

And no, "they just forgot" doesn't hold water, not when the Bloodlord battalion has two abilites in the same page, one that require being within 3" and one that doesn't.

 

As for the first two, I don't see your point. The 3" rule would still apply, because there's nothing in the unit entires that say you can ignore it. As for the other three, I've already discussed that they have to be within 3" at the start of the hero phase, while the Goretide can be selected at any point in the hero phase. I've already speculated as to why that is.

I might also add that the only unit I know of in the game that can pile in from outside 3" is the Icefall Yvette's. Their Bounding leap ability specifically states that they can pile in "if they are within 6" of an enemy" and "they can move up to 6" when piling in." That is a specific case where the ability explicitly says the 3" rule does not apply. if they are clear enough to state that this unit has an exception to the regular 3" pile in, why didn't they do it with any of the others? (hint: because they aren't allowed to pile in if they aren't within 3")

----------

At this point I've made about as clear a case as I can given the existing warscrolls, FAQ's and game precedent. So unless somebody has anything new to add I'll just wait for the FAQ on this and let you fight amongst yourselves... 

[Allornone]

Also, if the 3" restriction was inherent to the pile in move instead to the Combat Phase, why we have the same restriction added to very similar abilities?

Tzaangor Coven:  "May pile and attack as if it were the combat phase"
Deadwatch: "In your hero phase, you can make a pile in move and attack with each Deadwatch unit as if it were the combat phase"
Blood Host of Khorne: "Within 3" of an enemy"
Bloodlords: "Within 3" of an enemy"
Skullfiend Tribe: "within 3" of an Hero or a Monster". 

And no, "they just forgot" doesn't hold water, not when the Bloodlord battalion has two abilites in the same page, one that require being within 3" and one that doesn't.

[Allornone]

2 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Although the rules say that you may not move within 3" of an enemy unit "in the movement phase" The FAQ has already clarified that you still cannot move within 3" of an enemy no mater the phase the move happens in (for example destructions "rampaging destroyers" allegiance ability).

The movement phase "section" of the rules just happens to be where the restrictions are documented; it doesn't mean the rules aren't applicable in other phases.

Again, the FAQ is pretty clear here. Abilities which give an extended range pile-ins still have to be within 3" to use said pile-in (or they need to have charged) regardless of the phase in happens in.

 

Good job cutting your image so it doesn't show the restriction of the pile in move, and the fact that it lack anything regarding a 3" distance.


So basically the faq you are using to support your point actually is against you if you read it in it's entirety instead of just halfway.

[Allornone]

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

The high elf princes pile in happens in the combat phase yes, but the question the FAQ answered was if he could use it outside 3". The answer is quite clearly no, (unless the ability specifically states otherwise).

The question was if he could use it IN THE COMBAT PHASE.

 

3 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

Abilities that gain a regular "move" in the hero phase still cannot "move" within 3" of the enemy. Likewise, units that pile in the hero phase still can't pile in if they are more than 3" from the enemy, as pile in's can only occur if you are already within 3".

Not really. As you can see the while not ending within 3" is clearly spelled in the restriction of a regular move, the only restrictions about the Pile In move is that you must end closer to your enemy.

 

[Spinsane]

7 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Likewise look at the similar wording regarding the rules for movement:The movement phase "section" of the rules just happens to be where the restrictions are documented; it doesn't mean the rules aren't applicable in other phases. 

Again, the FAQ is pretty clear here. Abilities which give an extended range pile-ins still have to be within 3" to use said pile-in (or they need to have charged) regardless of the phase in happens in.

While I have to admit this is how I read the rules, the way the FAQ has been worded means I have to side, until a clearer ruling comes out, with those that claim the within 3" restriction does not currently apply outside the Combat Phase.

Your example clearly highlights this: the FAQ clearly restricts normal movement to >3" away in all phases, clearly indicating that the restriction applies beyond the originaly specified Phase, whereas it does not do as such for the restriction on Pile-ins...

4 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

 the FAQ straight up states that the distance of the pile in does not change the 3" requirement. 

I'm sorry but you're derailing the question, that's not what I was arguing here...

A model that can Pile-in 6" still has to be within 3" to Pile-in during the Combat Phase, as has been pointed out. That is not being questioned, it's a clear cut answer.

Whether or not the within 3" restriction applies to Pile-ins outside the Combat Phase has not been clarified, however, and the only restriction that the FAQ enforces is that the model finishes closer to the closed enemy, it doesn't say the model/unit had to be within 3" at the beginning of the Pile-In move.

Also, please compare the following very similar Battalion rules from the new Khorne book:

Bloodlords: Any Bloodletter Heroes from the Bloodlords that are within 3" of any enemy models at the start of your hero phase...
Skullfiend Tribe:  If any unit from the Skullfiend Tribe are within 3" of any enemy Heroes or Monsters at the start of your hero phase...
vs
Goretide: In each of your hero phases, you can pile in up to 8"...

Why is it that GW thought it necessary to specify, for the Bloodlords and Skullfiend Tribe battalions, that the 3" rule applies if it already always does?

 

So while I wish I could agree with you, the way the FAQ has been written has me relucantly do otherwise.

[Gilby]

@Spinsane says everything much better below so I'll remove what I said here. The examples of the other rules in the Blades of Khorne book are excellent points too.

[Mirage8112]

10 minutes ago, Spinsane said:

Since we already have confirmation that the only restriction on Pile-in moves is that the model finishes closer to the nearest enemy model, we must assume that outside combat, the within 3 inches restriction is not applicable as it is not listed as a permanent Pile-in restriction.

Nope. That passage is describing the restriction on the move itself.  It's not detailing the restrictions on whether or not you are able to make the move. I.e. IF you can make a pile in, the only restriction is you finish the move closer to the model.

However, you must be at most 3" from an enemy model to execute a pile in move. They can move further than 3" but they have to be within 3" to do so. This was clarified by the Griffon FAQ.

Seriously. The FAQ couldn't be more clear on this. the FAQ straight up states that the distance of the pile in does not change the 3" requirement.