Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[hobgoblinclub]

On 13/02/2017 at 9:10 PM, Vaz84 said:

List building for Matched Play. 

Looking at the generals handbook, and then my own spell lists. Seem's like my models can cast ALOT of spells, but actually looking at my options, seem's like they will run OUT of spells. Can EACH unit cash Arcane Bolt (for example), or am I right when the handbook says a spell can only be cast once per round.

Going to be going up against a Goblin army next week, looking at Shaman, Ogre, 2x Tgors, 1x Flying Archers, 1x Flying Melee with the battalion scroll for the beaks of madness. Tempted to find a way to fit a gaunt summoner into the list just so I can thin down the hordes faster!

Can you really run out of spells with 12 new ones to pick from in the Tzeentch book? How many can you list cast per turn? 

[hobgoblinclub]

How are you all building your Tzaangors?

I'm going to run a unit of 30. If I take all of the options (12 greatblades and 6 mutants) I end up with only 12 holding shields. This'll mean I lose my 'ward' save after I lose 12 or take more than 24 wounds straight off.

I really want the unit to be survivable. I'm wondering if I should ditch some of the mutants, losing only a few attacks, in favour of more shields. What do you think?

[Bradifer]

24 wounds is a lot to get through.

I would think 12 shields is enough.

Could always proxy before assembling the rest, or mathhammer it.

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, hobgoblinclub said:

How are you all building your Tzaangors?

I'm going to run a unit of 30. If I take all of the options (12 greatblades and 6 mutants) I end up with only 12 holding shields. This'll mean I lose my 'ward' save after I lose 12 or take more than 24 wounds straight off.

I really want the unit to be survivable. I'm wondering if I should ditch some of the mutants, losing only a few attacks, in favour of more shields. What do you think?

probably look to remove the mutants? i guess it depends on the foe you're up against, 

think of them as blightkings of 8th edition. came with 3 loadouts in one kit.

one for high armour ( great weapons ) one for low armour ( dual wielding ) and one defensive build.

tzaangors can take all three at once if you build them like this, then you've more of a all corners balanced unit but less offensive. 

so it depends what you're going up against will decide what models you remove, and what tactical advantage you can get, such as removing a unit from combat which ultimately is more important than what weapons you have left.

going up against low armour low wound count units? send the mutants, decent safe decent wounds? great weapons.

id remove down to the last shield guy, then depending on what you're going up against start on either the mutants or the great weapon guys (outside of tactical removal ) 

[Arkiham]

I've been thinking more about our ability to strike deep into the enemies lines with units such as enlightened and skyfires, and causing mayhem there from that  

Disrupting movement and killing off heroes etc.

how does this combo sound 

Windthief charm with the fatemaster for 32" move +charge turn 1. On top of skyfires arrows an such.

Really do some back line damage, an this guy won't shift easy and will definitely gain you a turn or two movement blocking on enemy units 

[Goodwin]

1 hour ago, Arkiham said:

I've been thinking more about our ability to strike deep into the enemies lines with units such as enlightened and skyfires, and causing mayhem there from that  

Disrupting movement and killing off heroes etc.

how does this combo sound 

Windthief charm with the fatemaster for 32" move +charge turn 1. On top of skyfires arrows an such.

Really do some back line damage, an this guy won't shift easy and will definitely gain you a turn or two movement blocking on enemy units 

 

Could be a tricky little number.  Then even if your opponent knows what you are doing, they have to plan for it and that could be an advantage itself.

Maybe also look at Changeling?  If you have the Fatemaster coming in there like a bat outa Shyish and then you have the Changeling throwing off a spell, charging something, and then using the enemy's weapon against them it could be a nasty combo.  This means one of them is going to get attacked back though, so I'd probably attack with Changeling first as the Fatemaster may be able to tank the hits back but the Changeling probably won't.  Its like 280 points but that could cause some pants staining?

[Arkiham]

That's the hope,  you need to position yourself so you can at least recoup some of the investment, so near a squishy hero would be ideal, I doubt they'll be strong enough to kill off the enemy general but you never know.

killing off a wizard/priest or combo hero seems a  viable enough option, and/or Disrupting movement by charging a unit on the far edge would cause them to loose potentially a whole turn if the unit is in the front and is wide (ironjawz)

If he survives until your next turn you can run him out, with a normal movement of 16" not much will keep up unless they make a long charge.

[Denneysman]

On 2/15/2017 at 3:34 PM, hobgoblinclub said:

Can you really run out of spells with 12 new ones to pick from in the Tzeentch book? How many can you list cast per turn? 

It's not so much running out of spellings as limited on that you can cast. My own list has 7 casters, can cast 16 spells a turn out of that I can only cast 1 arcane bolt, 1 mystic shield, only 1 of anything.

[redbeardboss]

man that fate master isnt going to do anything even if he moves across the table in one turn. id only take him if you wanted the command ability and that doesnt even affect tzaangors. usually a hero mount is better than a unit but what a surprise his disc is so much worse than a tzangor shaman. he has no rend and wounds on 4s so he has hardly any damage output at all.

[Nevvermore]

Honestly to me the Fatemaster seems like a horrible unit all around. His ability is way too unreliable and he has nothing else going for him.

[TalesOfSigmar]

So I'm considering something stupid if I qualify for the Grand Tournament final round.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Archaon (700)
Kairos Fateweaver (340)
Lord Of Change (300)
Lord Of Change (300)
Gaunt Summoner (100)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140)
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Units

Total: 2000/2000

or

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Kairos Fateweaver (340)
Lord Of Change (300)
Lord Of Change (300)
Lord Of Change (300)
Gaunt Summoner (100)

Battleline
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
10 x Chaos Marauders (60)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (320)

Battalions
Omniscient Oracles (60)

Scenery
Balewind Vortex (100)

Total: 2000/2000

 

Completely stupid lists but just want to put Archaon and 3 Big birds or 4 Big Birds on the table at once and just push it around for a laugh.

[Nico]

Quote

So I'm considering something stupid if I qualify for the Grand Tournament final round.

It's the definition of a scissors, to some opponents' rocks, but it might do better than you might think. Archaon can rapidly acquire 5 attacks with the Slayer of Kings and some rerollable saves and mystic shield. With Destiny Dice any hero or monster he approaches is in serious risk of death - can you roll a single six on 4 dice (assuming you don't have two sixes in the pool)? 

Even the derpy D6 damage attack (why is it -1 rend! for 700 points?) isn't so bad if you use Destiny Dice to ensure the hits and wounds and then hope that they fail a save, then bang with the 5 Destiny Dice for the Damage roll or a 6 if needed.

I'm really looking forward to building my Archaon (which has been on a shelf for over a year).

The Derpy Heads, Kunning and Smasha

The Community might have to agree an answer to the conundrum of how do you work out whether the derpy heads actually killed a model as opposed to the other attacks. Taking the rules literally, I don't believe there is an answer which isn't absurd - rolling each attack one by one to ensure that a given weapon inflicts the "killing blow" is absurd and arguably that doesn't even work - allowing the opponent to choose which point of damage inflicted the killing blow is also absurd (as they can always pick one that doesn't give you the buff). My suggestion in the context of Gorderp was that if the weapon in question contributes to the kill, i.e. inflicts at least one wound), then you get the buff (on one  weapon, not both, you can pick (or dice off) if both Kunning and Smasha did damage).

Hopefully this is perceived as being reasonable - similar issues arise for Neferata (remember her - she's that amazing model you used to see occasionally before the GH), the Coven Throne and others.

[FunkyPunk]

So so far I've played 2 games with the new book - It's been fun learning how to use the new units, the spells & the destiny dice.

The list I've been using:

Leaders
Lord Of Change (300) - tzeentch's firestorm
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (140) - shield of fate
Tzaangor Shaman (120) - shield of fate
Gaunt Summoner with Familiars (120) - glimpse the future

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) - bolt of tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (140) - Fold reality
30 x Tzaangors (540)

Units
9 x Tzaangor Skyfires (480)

Total: 1980/2000

Learning experiences so far:

-30 tzaangor are really really really tough to chew through - but it's almost impossible to get anywhere near the total number into combat. I want to try dropping to 20 so that I can fit a summoning pool (blue horrors + balewind) but I'm worried it won't have anywhere near the survivability or punch.

-Skyfires are great as expected, but they also pack a surprising punch in combat if you go first with them

-Fold reality has treated me well so far but I still worry about it

-The list feels really strong when the enemy enters 18", but weak outside it (even with the skyfires, as you don't want to expose them). I felt somewhat dependent on getting a double turn so I could move into position and then unleash magical hell.

-I think I need some more flexibility in the list - summoning pool would be ideal for this but I can't decide what I want to drop.

[Nico]

I thought that this bears repeating here:

 

I was thinking about this again in the context of our friend the Stonelord. @Mirage8112

Let's say that some Bloodletters give him a smacking. 

The Stonelord halves "damage inflicted" after "all of the attacks made by the attacking unit have been carried out." The Destruction FAQ.

Now, if the Bloodletters do say 11 Mortal wounds on the hit rolls and 5 regular wounds from the attacks, then there are two possibilities:  

(1) Mortal wounds are damage just like regular wounds (they just aren't subject to saves and sometimes you don't need to do the wound rolls)

In this case, the unit of Bloodletters has done 16 damage (11+5) after all of the unit's attacks have been carried out, which halves down to 8 damage total.

(2) Mortal wounds are not damage (are distinct from regular wounds)

In this case, the mortal wounds would not be aggregated with the attacks for the halving purposes (as they are not "damage inflicted"). Effectively, this would be like impact hits or a spell that did 11 mortal wounds (those other examples aren't aggregated because they aren't attacks - they are bespoke rules which case mortal wounds).

Hence, you would have 11 mortal wounds, which would halve down to 6 damage; and 5 regular wounds, which would have down to 3 wounds. This would result in 9 damage total.  

While the difference in the overall outcome isn't huge (although it can be if it means that the Stonelord lives instead of dying and being healed 6 wounds back next turn by his 3 Husktusk buddies) - it hopefully illustrates the point.

As I said elsewhere, originally I thought that mortal wounds were more "special" and distinct from regular wounds. Looking at the evolution of the rules and the FAQ, I now think that GW distinguish them as little as possible (which is probably simpler, again as this example shows).

This points in the same direction of a Damage roll including D6 mortal wounds.

[KTwo]

One thing to note is that the Stonehorn profile itself distinguishes between damage and mortal wounds as if they weren't the same thing.

[TrexPushups]

I've been thinking more about our ability to strike deep into the enemies lines with units such as enlightened and skyfires, and causing mayhem there from that   Disrupting movement and killing off heroes etc.

how does this combo sound 

Windthief charm with the fatemaster for 32" move +charge turn 1. On top of skyfires arrows an such.

Really do some back line damage, an this guy won't shift easy and will definitely gain you a turn or two movement blocking on enemy units 

 

 

With 16" move and the benefit you get from him being alive I think the glamour fetish would do better.

 

He doesn't hit hard enough to merit being up in the opponents grill like that in my opinion.

 

 

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[Malakithe]

I think the Ogroid is the best melee hero option for the Arcanite side. Too bad you can't include him in any battalions.

[AverageBoss]

6 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I think the Ogroid is the best melee hero option for the Arcanite side. Too bad you can't include him in any battalions.

Ya, its a shame that he, the Curseling, and the Gaunt Summoner all go left out on that front.

[Malfallax]

Aaah the Curseling.... I love the model and the rules .... Why can't we use him on any Battalion?

[Soulsmith]

I do love the idea that's already been posted of sticking a curseling on a balewind and denying anyone else magic.

[Stauderpower]

I've been running a curseling with the 27" unbind trait and so far in about 20 games I've had about 4 or 5 spells go through. I think he is underated but with a 4+ save he's relatively survivable and can bounce wounds to my chaff if I need him to stick around. He takes a lot of attention off my other wizards. I've played several games against sylvaneth and he is really good at shutting down the gnarlroot and stopping (and sometimes stealing!) Their spells. I think he's a solid general choice unless you are running a LOC since I just use inspiring presence on the tzaangors each turn.

[Nico]

Quote

I've been running a curseling with the 27" unbind trait and so far in about 20 games I've had about 4 or 5 spells go through. I think he is underated but with a 4+ save he's relatively survivable and can bounce wounds to my chaff if I need him to stick around. He takes a lot of attention off my other wizards. 

It's a very tempting option. It does admittedly sacrifice having any command ability at all (but that's not the end of the world for Tzeentch). I would go Paradoxical shield so that he is on a 1+ (as soon as he gets on the Balewind which provides cover). If you slap Oracular Visions on him as well, then even tankier, since he essentially rerolls the first dice of the save (pretty much whatever number it is unless it's -2 rend pew pew (or -3 rend shooting, there's at least one example) and he rolls a 2) and then needs a 2+ to save due to the rule of one.  

If you unbind Mystic Shield during their turn, you can cast it immediately and actually have two mystic shields going at the same time, which is pretty sweet (as the rule of one for spells relates to a turn not a battleround). People will soon learn not to even bother casting certain spells in range of him (unless you've got #CraigRolls for the Destiny Dice @Bowlzee or you've already used up the good ones, or they've got Papa Nagash and you're about to lose the game).

Has anyone spotted any command abilities that actually work on Tzaangors (even outside of the DoT book)? They are Gor and Chaos but neither Brayherd, Mortals nor Daemons.

[Stauderpower]

Didn't really think of the shield with him but I may try it out. I've been using the shield on a tzeentch chaos lord on demonic mount as he rerolls failed saves and the shield let's you reroll successful saves so they cancel out and you have a guy with a 2+ base, 1 + in cover. He acts as a nice little tarpit. However I'm having trouble justifying any character who isn't a wizard in my army now.

 

[Nico]

@scrollbuilderdude

Hello, could I make a small request please. Could you please add (or reinstate) or tell me where to locate (if i'm derping), the Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars - who is 120 points. You could pop him in under Arcanites or Everchosen). The Warscroll is on the app under Silver Tower.

Also if you are adding the Lore of Fate/Change to the heroes, then several of them are able to pick a single spell from either Lore (not both)! This would include at least:

• The Tzaangor Shaman (both Arcanite and Daemon);
• All the Gaunt Summoners (both Mortal and Daemon);
• Archaon (big one) (both mortal and Daemon);
• Archaon, The Everchosen (little one) - both mortal and Daemon;

The recent improvements to Warscroll Builder are really sweet. I hope you get a lot of good feedback.

Have a great weekend!

Many thanks.

[Arkiham]

Do they actually cancel each other out, or is it down to roll trickery?