Manfred or Neferata?

[MikeGreen]

Which one is better and why?

What are your thoughts of hexwraiths aren't they a bit too expensive in points?

[Oppenheimer]

Neferata. Her command ability can be deviating to heavy hitters with a 4+ to hit. Plus we need as many women as we can get. That and Mannfred blew up the old world.

[Bostian]

10 minutes ago, Oppenheimer said:

Neferata. Her command ability can be deviating to heavy hitters with a 4+ to hit. Plus we need as many women as we can get. That and Mannfred blew up the old world.

I was going to attempt to argue a case for Arkhan the Black over both of these. But I have to agree with the line, "...we need as many women as we can get." Neferata is quite the dynamic female character.

 

[deynon]

1 hour ago, Oppenheimer said:

Neferata. Her command ability can be deviating to heavy hitters with a 4+ to hit. Plus we need as many women as we can get. That and Mannfred blew up the old world.

Nothing can be said against such agument

[shinros]

3 hours ago, Oppenheimer said:

Neferata. Her command ability can be deviating to heavy hitters with a 4+ to hit. Plus we need as many women as we can get. That and Mannfred blew up the old world.

Nagash seems to be okay with it though I suspect his punishment was eternal servitude to him which I think mannfred would consider worse than death and nagash considers him some strange child of his. I dunno he has some weird affection for him it seems he value's his mind the most of the three and the fact he did the "best" with dealing with chaos. 

Now my case for mannfred? Yes Neferata is more tanky and she can convert heroes(If you are playing matched play you have to pay for it) but mannfred has good magic and is great in close combat(The best I think out of the mortarchs) but I think the main thing that makes him good is his command ability. 

Mortarch’s Vigour of Undeath: Mannfred’s iron will binds his minions to his service and pushes them beyond their normal limits. If Mannfred uses this ability, then until your next hero phase you can re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 for Death units from your army that are within the range shown on the damage table.

Oh yes and the command ability is a bubble. Now in my opinion there is not "better" mortarch it honestly depends on how you want to build your army. I run mannfred and I laugh at people who say skeleton warriors and zombies are terrible mannfred + a zombie cart with a horde of skeletons and zombies. 

Your opponent will cry. 

The downside? He is the most expensive of the three. 

[ElectricPaladin]

4 hours ago, MikeGreen said:

Which one is better and why?

 

In terms of sheer coolness? Neferata all the way. She's a chick with an interesting-yet-reasonably-dressed model, which is a sad rarity in the world of wargaming. Also I'm in the camp with the Mannfred-haters. He's got a douchey face and has repeatedly acted douchey in his background. He's a douchey vampire douche.

Regarding rules, I like Neferata's debuff bubble, because it means that you won't run into scornergy. Both Neferata and Mannfred have the problem that one of their buffs doubles up with a native ability of one or more Death units. Mannfred doesn't do a good job of buffing Flesh Eaters because most of them already reroll misses or 1s (if the king is nearby), and Neferata's spell just gives a benefit that almost all Nighthaunt units already have. A debuff, however, never goes out of style.

5 hours ago, MikeGreen said:

What are your thoughts of hexwraiths

Hexwraiths are great. They can hit hard, cause incidental wounds as they zip around the board, and thanks to their inherent Nighthaunt immunity to Rend and decent save, they are very hard to shift. Pretty much the only reason to run black knights is if you want to maintain a Deathrattle allegiance.

[Solaris]

They're both really good. Which one is better depends on how you build the rest of your army. I haven't ran Hexwraiths yet, so I can't comment on them.

[Darth Alec]

Neferata all the way.

 

Never forgive. Never forget.

 

 

 

 

[shinros]

10 hours ago, Darth Alec said:

Neferata all the way.

 

Never forgive. Never forget.

 

 

 

 

He had it coming and he gave the almighty god of spooky true godhood he was rewarded with eternal servitude he can never escape or run away from being his servant even in death since mannfred states if he dies he will go back to nagash. (To manny's anger and annoyance that he has to accept that he is his master)

It seems nagash got over it. Enough to consider him his "child" 

One interesting note about that during that whole end event they were driving the point home that nagash and mannfred are quite a like. Even vlad states this in the end and Arkhan and vlad state after everything they have been through perhaps out of all them mannfred is nagash's truest servant. 

Sill in nagash's arrogance before he became a god he did not realize it and overall it was a "mistake" giving him up because he underestimated how far he would go for revenge. 

I mean look at their history their backgrounds matches up they were in the shadow of a relative they sought power. They did well at first before they were removed from said power. Then finally with all undead they ended the lives of those who wronged them. Mannfred pretty much walked in nagash's foot steps right up till the end. 

Hmm maybe that's why nagash considers him his child of sorts?

To a point in the recent lord of undeath novel nagash states himself the thing he likes most about mannfred is how twisted his mind is and makes neferata's schemes look childish. In the context of him ending the world he was right neferata even tells her blood knight he is the sought of person who would chase someone to the end of their days to get revenge. 

When her blood knight was underestimating him when they were travelling in mannfred castle with a pretty german name. 

[KHHaunts]

Kinda in the "Dammit Mannfred!!" camp so i likw Neferata however i personally use Arkhan think hes very cheap points wise considering his potential.

 

My main oppinion is the hexwraiths vs Black knights.

I agree with everything that has been said about hexwraiths so far. However.

Black knights should not be counted out for a number of reasons. Firstly they are cheaper than hexwraiths and since malignants dont really syngergize much at the moment i always run a deathrattle alliegence which means black knights are battleline.

Secondly: Black knights benefit more from the same synergy as deathrattle such as extra attacks from a wight king and vanels dance macabre. they also have some charging bonus's (Skeletons are pretty meh without support but with it they are brutal)

Thirdly: Hexwraiths have no command trio. No extra attack for leader. No guaranteed charging range. and no respawning of D3 units per turn from the banner.

Not saying they are better then HWraiths coz i field them alot more but they are definatly worth it under the right circumstances.

 

[ElectricPaladin]

38 minutes ago, KHHaunts said:

I agree with everything that has been said about hexwraiths so far. However...

I like the way you put all that, @KHHaunts.

To take your analysis further... I'd say that the best way to think about black knights is as "fast battleline," or perhaps as a sort of mounted infantry. Their job is to get where they're going quickly, and while they're a little tougher on the turn they charge into combat, and they can fight really hard once they get there, if they have the right support. They are meant to range out ahead of your main battleline and pin the enemy in place for long enough that the rest of your army can do what it needs to do, whether that's close in and join in the fray, maneuver onto an objective, or come to grips with your opponent elsewhere.

Hexwraiths, on the other hand, are still very much the light cavalry that they were back in WHFB. They're fast, mobile (thanks to Flying) and can harass your opponent's units without engaging (thanks to their flyover mortal wounds ability). Unlike most light cavalry, they've also got suprising staying power, thanks to their Ethereal immunity to Rend. However, this doesn't really help them against your opponents' line infantry, since most ordinary guys don't have a lot of rend. Additionally, their "staying power" is purely mathematical, since once they take casualties, those casualties are gone, as they have no native way to restore models or wounds. Hexwraiths' job is to engage enemy elites. The maximizes the usefulness of their immunity to Rend (not to mention the decent Rend their own weapons carry). Their "flyover" ability comes into sharper focus when you view it this way - that's how they mess with your opponent's first line as they rush past to engage the second!

And finally - though the OP didn't bring them up - you have blood knights. They're still elite heavy cavalry, very durable and with the ability to restore wounds and models. It's a well known fact that these guys will ****** up your ****** and ****** up your ******.

[Nico]

Quote

Hexwraiths, on the other hand, are still very much the light cavalry 

I don't think they are light cavalry - they have better saves than almost all other cavalry bar Dracoth Knights and Varanguard; and unlike almost all other cavalry (except those two and Mournfang and Pig Riders), they have rend. They are heavy cavalry and are costed as such. Blood Knights are just better heavy cavalry. I agree that their job is to troll enemy elites by wasting their rend.

Don't forget that Skeleton Horsemen (TK) are inherent/always battleline and aren't significantly worse than Black Knights.

 

[Solaris]

Yeah, I think Hexwraiths would do best as hunters of wizards and warmachines due to their 12" flight, or as tough speedbumps that can put a dent in elite units. Their role differs from that of the Black Knights, and I don't think that these units should be compared. If anything, they should be compared to Tomb Scorpions or Sepulchral Stalkers, but that's not really a good comparison either.

A better comparison for Black Knights would be TK Skeleton Horsemen. They cost more than the Horsemen, and do marginally more damage. However, their job is not to do damage. I have a ton of other units to do that, among them Necropolis Knights, in my opinion the best cavalry unit in the game. I want my Horsemen to act as charge screens for my heavy hitters, to run up and block the movement paths of the enemy's big baddies, and to soak as much damage as possible before they die. I'd go for a 20 point cheaper unit that is always battleline over Black Knights every single time.

[KHHaunts]

1 hour ago, ElectricPaladin said:

I like the way you put all that, @KHHaunts.

 

Thanks!

You raise some good points though. While i wouldnt consider them light cavalry because even without Ethreal there stats are atleast on par with most mid level cavalry.

However i havent used there Spectral Hunter ability nearly as much as a should. I will have give that a go next game.

[MikeGreen]

Seems like most people prefer Neferata - but I'm not sure how much the fact that she is "considered cool" has affected it.

From comparing their warscrolls I would say that Manfred seems to be slightly better. For 20 points more he can take signifantly more damage.

But I haven't played AoS

[Solaris]

The thing that makes me prefer Neferata is that Mannfred is basically a more expensive version of Settra with a worse command ability. They both boost the offense of every friendly Death unit within a bubble around them, but Mannfreds bubble is smaller, decreases with wounds taken, and the effect is straight up not as good as Settras if your army contains Deathrattle units or units with the Frightful Touch rule (mortal wounds on 5+ instead of 6+ is massive). Since I play a mainly TK force led by Settra, Mannfred just doesn't add anything interesting for me - fielding Mannfred instead of Settra would just be a straight up downgrade of my army. Neferata, on the other hand, is a completely different beast, and would allow me to build different and interesting lists as compared to what I usually play.

[kozokus]

Regardless of any power/cost argument i am on the "Dammit Mannfred" team.

I recommand you to read "Deathlords" and you would never consider not playing Neferata again.

Everything about power/costs have been said.

[MikeGreen]

How feaster of souls ability works ?

 

Neferata, Mortarch of

Blood, heals 2 wounds at the end of each

combat phase during which she slew

any models.

 

What means "she" in this instance ? Do wounds caused by mount and/or spirits count ?

[Solaris]

10 minutes ago, MikeGreen said:

How feaster of souls ability works ?

 

Neferata, Mortarch of

Blood, heals 2 wounds at the end of each

combat phase during which she slew

any models.

 

What means "she" in this instance ? Do wounds caused by mount and/or spirits count ?

Yes, they count. Neferata, with mount and spirits, counts as one model, so you don't separate them.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Mannfred is the reason I have a moratorium on Vampires and Deathlords in my army, haha. Can't stand the character, and the models don't help. Neferata is badass, but sadly doesn't fit the theme I'm going for. Doesn't really matter if she's female, all my forces should be so rotted and skeletal that you wouldn't be able to tell anyway.

 

[kozokus]

I may be the only one but i REALLY LIKE Arkhan ze black.

[KHHaunts]

1 hour ago, kozokus said:

I may be the only one but i REALLY LIKE Arkhan ze black.

Am 100% with you. 

Also did anyone else who listened to the aos audio dramas think that the portrayal of mannfred seemed to be a lot more like Vlads character during the end times (aka cool and confident as opposed to whiney teenage girl)

[shinros]

8 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

Am 100% with you. 

Also did anyone else who listened to the aos audio dramas think that the portrayal of mannfred seemed to be a lot more like Vlads character during the end times (aka cool and confident as opposed to whiney teenage girl)

In end times mannfred was not whiny at all(I even reread it) even during the end in his own words he was binding his time and was alright with the current situation(even neferata ruling sylvania he was pissed but knew better) until nagash decided to put him on the sacrificial plate which was the thing that broke the camels back. Which of course ended how you would expected it to end because nagash underestimated him.

His characterization is pretty much been consistent in my mind with a bit of growth since it's been several thousand years in AOS. 

In the recent lord of undeath novel Neferata blood knight Harkon called mannfred a coward for recovering in his castle after the previous book/audiodrama. Then neferata reprimands him and states to her blood knight that to underestimate mannfred would be a bad idea since he is the type of person that will chase you to the end of your days if you wrong him. 

Arkhan and Vlad have a really lengthy conversation in end times before nagash puts mannfred on the plate that they both agree (yes even Arkhan the ultimate nagash fanboy) that mannfred in actually overall is nagash's greatest servant it's just that during that time because of nagash's arrogance he does not realize it. So in the end nagash did a mistake. Hell mannfred was the one who gathered the most things necessary to resurrect him Arkhan had to go to him and suggest an alliance because he only had two. 

Also mannfred wanted to create an similar empire to what nagash wanted listen to his quotes in total war and is almost a necromancer on par with Arkhan. Vlad wanted to rule a "living" empire which could never happen it's in the nature of the undead to "end" things. Mannfred is pretty much nagash's unknowing disciple in whfb. 

Plus do remember since the audio drama it's been several thousand years since the end times nagash grew so did mannfred hell nagash now considers mannfred some weird child of his. He is the only mortarch he calls child in different books written by different authors. His problem is that mannfred is reckless at the worst of times. 

Vlad even tells mannfred during the end times that in the end he is exactly like nagash they are alike of each other. Their stories are pretty much the same thing. In lord of undeath nagash states the reason why he likes mannfred so much is because how twisted his mind is and how he plots makes even neferata's plots look childish. (Did anyone else expect mannfred to be the one to give the middle finger to everyone? during end times? Nope. no one expected it) Plus he actually resisted chaos the best in AOS out of the three mortarch's per the words of nagash. 

Neferata pretty much hid her city until it was sacked by followers of slaanesh. Plus in the book it stated that when nagash appeared in her city Nagash was eeerr well upset with what he saw. 

Plus out of the mortarch's mannfred generally is aware when nagash is manipulating him compared to neferata and actually relied on him to try and capture a stormcast soul. 

Even then if you read the warhammer fantasy roleplay mannfred actually rebuilt sylvania in a pretty great fashion and peasants are not in cages like vlad's time. 

[KHHaunts]

I am not downplaying mannfred do achievements or his power. However he is also described as being somewhat of a weasel and a child who throws a tantrum if he doesn't get his own way. He may be most alike to Nagash but that's because we wants to replace nagash. In all the books I've read mannfred only seems to maintain an air of confidence and bravery when things are going his way. As soon as they don't he panics and throws a tantrum. 

Maybe whiney girl is a step to far. But he certainly has a cowardly and childish side. His action at the conclusion of the end times was definitely an overreaction. Not that I thought it was a bad plot point I loved it really threw me off.

[Tronhammer NZ]

Speaking of bad plots...

Neferata can't be trusted, but Mannfred is an emotionally stunted child-man who could destroy the world.

Arkhan for president: #FeelTheBlack

On topic? Depends what you need. M has more combat efficacy, but N has some amazing defensive synergies when combined with the likes of Mourngul etc.