Homebrew: Vampire Counts Arcane Journel (prep work)

[Sception]

As a legacy faction, if Vampire Counts are to get an Arcane Journal, we'll have to do it ourselves.  Here are my thoughts so far:

1) Bloodline Rules or no?

Old School vampire count fans tend to miss these, though the last two warhammer fantasy vampire count army books both dropped them, preferring to let players customize individual vampires in their armies as they wish without having army-wide bloodline choices pushing all your vampire heroes in the same direction.  Dropping Bloodlines also removes the need to have four different ranges of vampire models, but the unsupported legacy status of vampire counts in the Old World kind of negates that as an issue, since vamp counts players will generally be relying on 3rd party and 3d print options for their models, and there's plenty of different vampires to choose from then.  On the other hand, Age of Sigmar brought back bloodlines and feels more flavorful for it..  I'm not sure which approach is the best one.  An obvious alternative is to do bloodlines as Armies of Infamy rather than a rules layer, but doing an army of infamy for each bloodline would require far more than the 2 armies of infamy that Arcane Tomes have as a standard.

Here's an example of what a bloodline rules layer might look like:

When you build a Vampire Counts roster, you may choose for the vampire characters in your army to descend from one of the infamous Vampiric Bloodlines of the Old World.  If you do so, then choose one of the following bloodlines below and apply that bloodlines rules to all Vampire Counts and Vampire Thralls in your army.

Von Carstein: no additional changes
Lahmian: +1 weapon skill and initiative, but cannot wear normal or magical heavy armor or shields
Blood Dragon: +1 strength and may dispel spells even while wearing armor or locked in combat, but cannot cast spells.
Necrarch: +1 bonus to cast and dispel rolls, but may not use normal or magical weapons, armor, or shields apart from a single non-magical hand weapon.

(note: Strigoi vampire heroes are represented by entirely different units, and thus do not get bloodline rules).

The Alternative to explicit bloodline rules is to include more new vampiric powers that are clearly themed to the old bloodlines, but without being explicitly tied to a bloodline system.  Ideally these should come with both benefits and drawbacks so that players don't just put all the best powers on a single hero.

 

2) Special Characters: Arcane Journals generally add two special characters.  Unfortunately, most of the classic vampire counts special characters, in particular those that had models in 8th edition, are not active in the Old World's time frame.  The Von-Carsteins are dead (apart from Mannfred, who's sleeping off his latest defeat under a bog), Kemmler either isn't born yet or is currently a hermit with amnesia, I forget, but either way he's not doing anything.  Krell is still stuck in a Burial Mound.  So either we break from the official Arcane Journals to include heroes who aren't active in the Old World's specific time frame, which I'm not inherently opposed to, or else we go with special characters who don't have 'recent' official GW models.  Options then include:

• Neferata/Abhorash/Ushoran: these bloodline founders are in theory alive somewhere in the world, but they're not directly active at this time and also they're of a legendary power level that I feel disinclined to represent in the game mechanically.  Still, I'm open to the idea of including them, especially if we bring back bloodline rules
• Melchior: As with the bloodline founders, Melchior is alive but not iirc super active in this specific time frame.  Also there is a canon conflict over whether Melchior killed W'Soran or whether W'Soran's spirit killed and possessed Melchior, so Melchior could just literally be W'Soran, which runs into my feeling that bloodline founders are at a power scale I'm disinclined to represent directly.
• Dieter Hellsnicht is alive and causing trouble, still riding around on his undead manticore.  He seems an obvious choice, especially since as a necromancer he could be included in any army regardless of Bloodline.  The downside for Dieter is that I'm not aware of a currently available model, print file, or even an easy conversion that we can suggest to represent him.  While imo 3rd party stuff or simple conversions are fine, we're in homebrew land anyway, I'm disinclined to include a special character with no readily available model us use for them.
• the Red Duke is still haunting the forest of Chalons in Brettonia.  Given the prominence of Brettonia in this edition he seems like a good choice, but in canon he's not very active and his mind is kind of broken.  Having him lead any sort of significant campaign would be a major canon divergence.
• Arkhan the Black is alive and doing his usual thing - collecting artefacts, trying to revive Nagash.  One imagines that with Settra away on vacation Arkhan would likely be causing some particular troubles in Nehekhara, and while that's not an official part of canon it wouldn't be contrary to it either.  But while Arkhan is associated with some vampire count units, he's really more of a Tomb Kings character.
• Luthor Harkon: this is probably the best option, and one could even argue that he has a model in the old Sartosan Vampire mini, though it's particularly hard to come by these days.  He's currently ruling over the Vampire Coast and is relatively active.  If we include Luthor Harkon, though, then that's a reason not to include explicit bloodline rules, since Harkon's specific vampire lineage isn't known.  We could do both, and just specify that Harkon can only be taken in a vampire army that doesn't draw from one of the classic bloodlines.  On the other hand, Luthor's vampire pirates are fairly distinct, arguably an army in themselves.
• Someone new?  The Arcane Journals thus far have used the specific setting of the Old World as an opportunity to explore new characters.  So maybe we could introduce a new named necromancer, wight, vampire, or ghoul king.  A ghoul king especially might be worth considering, what with the recent Flesh Eater Court expansion providing some models we could steal, and strigoi ghoul armies being one of the existing vampire count army concepts that isn't super well supported in the current book and those is prime for an army of infamy

I'm currently inclined towards Luthor Harkon and either Dieter Hellsnicht or a new named ghoul king hero using either the Gorewarden, Archregent, or Cardinal model, but I am open to opinions & suggestions.

 

3) Armies of Infamy - arguably the most exciting element of the Arcane Journals, so far each faction gets 2, and I'm strongly disinclined to stray from that precedent, which means not doing Armies of Infamy for each bloodline.  At least not here, if we actually get this homebrew arcane journal together I'd be open to then doing separate narrative campaign supplements straying from the official time period of the Old World to tackle specific wars of the undead with the heroes and armies particular to them, with the Von Carstein wars being the obvious first choice there.  In the mean time though, just 2, and ideally these should enable armies that are otherwise poorly represented by the core vampire count Grand Army composition.  That Grand Army is currently pretty broad and versatile, well representing classic vampire count armies, necromancer & wight led undead armies without any vampires at all, and can even use allies to represent mixed vampire and tomb king forces fitting those of Neferata or Arkhan.  Ideas for Armies of Infamy that the current Grand Army arguably doesn't quite do well include:

• Strigoi/ghoul armies.  Not a lot of units to choose from, no strigany human mercenaries, no hero-level ghoul king, weird choices like horrors vs. fell bats when both are on brand for the army make Strigoi armies much harder to build out of the current Grand Army than other classic vamp count archetypes, so a Strigoi Army of Infamy could be a good choice.  This is particularly attractive as an option since additional units are easy to model - Strigany can be represented with empire free company while new ghoul and strigoi vampire units can be drawn straight from the AoS FEC range, with crypt guard and morbheg knights in particular are obvious additions.
• Vampires entrenched in human society - whether blood dragons corrupting a knightly order, von-carsteins or lahmians infiltrating the courts of human nobility, or necrarchs taking over an institute of arcane learning, this is a common vampiric trope in both genre fiction broadly and warhammer fiction in particular, one that needs some degree of access to mortal mercenary units.  Though it doesn't need much more than that, if we simply added some empire mercenaries to the Grand Company as an alternative to Tomb Kings allies (perhaps tied to a 'master of mortals' vampiric power) then there might not be cause for a whole army of infamy for this.  On the other hand, if we made this concept slightly modular, with variants for different bloodlines, then we could ~sort of~ do an AoI for each bloodline without breaking the 2 AoI per Arcane Tome limit
• All Cav Knightly Order Blood Dragons.  You can sort of put this together with dire wolf core, black knights in core (using wight king heroes) and special, and blood knights in rare, but it's a hassle and doesn't come together as well as you'd like.  Then again, if we loosen the Grand Army's restrictions restrictions on cavalry just a little bit, say with a vampiric power that lets you take a single unit of Blood Knights as a Core Unit, then this might not require an entire Army of Infamy.  Overlap with the 'entrenched in human society' concept above if combined with mercenary empire or brettonian knights.
• Pirates of the Vampire Coast - Luthor Harkon being probably the best option for special character makes this probably the best choice for Army of Infamy, with obvious additions, many stolen from total warhammer, that are easy to model in zombie pirates (mix and match empire free company with zombie bits) and cannons (take empire cannon models and just stick zombies or skeletons next to them as the crew), damned knights (brettonian knights painted in ghostly colors), Mournguls (no longer sold by GW, but still available on the secondary market), maybe even undead sea monsters (paint dark elf charybdis or hydra with dead flesh, maybe convert a bit of battle damage), etc.  They also have a history of allying with Dark Elves, which could make for some interesting allied armies with extra pirate feel from coursairs and the like.  The only downside here is that Vampire Coast might eventually get to be its own official faction in tOW, but if that does happen it won't be any time soon.

So yeah, my leaning for Armies of Infamy goes heavily to 'Strigoi Ghoul Court' and 'Vampire Pirates of Sartosa', though, again, open to suggestions.

 

4) New Magic Items and Vampiric Powers - these have been discussed a bit above, but IF we do explicit bloodline rules THEN there should also be at least one unique vampiric power per bloodline.  EG:

• Blood Scions (Von Carstein only, may only be taken on your army's general): If this model is slain (and not returned to life via the Carstein Ring or similar effect), then you may choose another vampire character in your army that is still on the field to immediately become your general.  Your general is not treated as slain for victory points purposes or the 'Death of a General' rule.  If the chosen model is later slain then your opponent gains victory points for defeating your general and your army suffers the 'Death of a General' effects as normal.
   
• Quickblood (Lahmian only): This vampire has the strikes first rule.
   
• Dread Knight (Blood Dragon only): this vampire is equipped with Full Plate armor.  In addition, whenever an enemy character or champion refuses this vampire's challenge, this vampire gains +1 attack until the end of the turn.
   
• Necromantic Mastery (Necrarch only): this vampire knows one of the spells from the Lore of Undeath in addition to the spells they roll for their chosen lore of magic.  They may still trade one of their rolled spells for their chosen lore's signature spell or for a second spell from the Lore of Undeath.

Some of those - particularly the Necrarch one, would work well as generic vampiric powers if we don't bring back explicit bloodline rules.  There are other classic generic powers that should be brought back (albeit in reduced form), regardless of whether we do bloodlines or not, notably including:

• Red Fury - This vampire gains the hatred (all enemies) and Frenzy rules, and cannot lose them during the game.

Additionally, vampiric powers could be used as mentioned above to make slight adjustments to the Grand Army composition, allowing for some additional build concepts without requiring entire Armies of Infamy.  Examples:

• Master of Mortals (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general) - your army may include Mercenaries taken from the following: Empire State Troops, Empire Missile Troops, Empire Archers.  While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic domination is broken.  Your army may not include allies.
   
• Circle of Blood (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general, who must be mounted on a Nightmare) - your army may include a single unit of Blood Knights as a Core Unit, and may include Mercenary units taken from the following: either Empire Knights or Brettonian Knights of the Realm, but not both.  While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic domination is broken.  Your army may not include allies.

Obviously there would need to be new magic items as well, but I haven't even begun to think about them yet.

................

So, any thoughts or feedback on the direction so far?  In particular:

1. Should there be an explicit Bloodlines rules layer, or no?  I'm leaning no at the moment, but have been waffling back and forth since tOW's release.
    
2. Are Luthor Harkon and a new named Ghoul King the right special characters to go with?  Should Hellsnicht be there instead of one of those, and if so is there a model or easy conversion available to represent him?  Should we ignore time frames and just bring back the Von Carsteins?
    
3. Are Vampire Pirates and Ghoul Courts the right choices for Armies of Infamy?  If not, what do think is a better choice?
    
4. Is it ok to use bloodline powers to make cheeky adjustments to the Grand Army composition, or is that a bad design direction?  Are there any particular new or returning Vampiric Powers or Magic Items that you think a Vampire Counts Arcane Journal needs to include, or should avoid?

Edited April 4 by Sception

[JackStreicher]

1. Yes. The First army of Infamy could be Bloodlines in general. Adding 1-2 Abilities per Bloodline as well as 1-2 changes in army building.
My Suggestions:

Von Carstein: -  (+15 pts)
- Can field one unit of State Troops, Crossbowmen or Handgunners per 1000 pts.
- Vampiric Power to summon/add one Model of Fell Bats (use the Necromancy Spell to summon Zombies) with a power level of 2 (or the level of the caster if it is higher) (30 pts).
- Walking Death (may be picked twice, but not by the same vampire): +1 Combat resolution (20pts each)

Lahmian: -1 weapon skill and always strikes first , -1 LD for enemy units in Base contact but cannot wear non-magical armour, gains a ward of 5+ if no armour heavier than light armour is worn (+35 pts)
- Vampiric Ability to cast miasmic mirage as bound spell with a powerlevel of 2 (35 pts)
- One Wight may pick a single Vampiric Ability

Blood Dragon: +2 WS, automaticially wears plate armour, +1S. May attempt to dispell magic despite wearing armour (+1 for Thrallsm, +2 for Counts) (+55 pts)
- One unit of Blood Knigths or Black Knights per 1000 pts may use the Lance Formation.
- Black Knights and Grave Guards are Battleline, all previous battleline choices are moved to the special section
Vampiric Power: Master Strike - The Vampire gains the Monster Slayer and Killing blow special rule. (50 pts)

Necrarch: Upgradable to LV 4, Necromancer Keyword added. -2 WS, may receive two magical Items of the same category, can't be equipped with non-magical items (+25 pts)
- One Cairn Wraith or Spirit Host unit may be taken as Core Choice.
- Every Necrarch Vampire is allowed to pick the Dark Acolyte Ability even if another Necrarch Vampire has already picked it.
 

Strigoi: Counts as is,
Strigoi Thralls gain hatred (all) and poison attacks, -1 WS, +1T. No mounts. (+20 pts)
- One unit of Vargheists or Crypt Horrors per 1000 Points may be taken as Core Choice.
- One Terrorgheist may be taken as special choice.
 

General New Abilities 
Ancient Ferocity: Furious Charge, Frenzy (activates the first time the Character enters a combat) (20pts)
Looming Darkness: Infantry only - The Character may not be picked as target of spells and shooting attacks if it is not the closest enemy model. (this has no effect when joined to a unit)
Red Fury: +1 Attack (30 pts)
Flying Horror: Infantry only, the character gains fly (20 pts)

The harder part - no reason to reinvent the wheel, we can rewrite items from previous edtions

Items
SKABSCRATH 50 points Magic Weapon
The legendary blade of the Undead mercenary, Ennio Mordini, Skabscrath flickers with pale flame. A blade so potent it cannot be sheathed without first taking a life, Skabscrath is possessed of an evil sentience that drives the wielder to ever darker acts. Some claim the blade is more steeped in evil than any Vampire, for it will betray its wielder if its bloodlust is not sated. When unsheathed, Skabscrath emits the terrible screams of all those it has slain, amplified to such a degree that it can cause those who hear them to die off right.
The bearer has the Devastating Charge and Frenzy special rules, and all close combat attacks made by the bearer have the Flaming Attacks special rule. In addition, the bearer of Skabscrath gains the Wailing Dirge special rule.

NIGHTSHROUD 50 points Magic Armour
Ensorcelled in pitch darkness in the heart of Castle Drachenfels, the Nightshroud owes more to the otherworld than to reality. Originally fashioned from the death-raiments of King Pharatohep, the Nightshroud has since been soaked in the blood of sorcerers and witches. The aura of gloom that clings to it is so strong it can physically manifest, lashing out with shadowy tendrils that grapple with all those who would strike the wearer.
Infantry or Cavalry only The Nightshroud gives the wearer a 6+ armour save. Furthermore, enemy models in base contact with the wearer lose all Strength bonuses conferred from normal and magical weapons. Enemies in base contact reveive no bonus for having charged (no impact hits) and they can't use a wepaons that require a charge). Wizards can wear the Nightshroud and cast spells as normal.

THE CADAVEROUS CUIRASS 30 points Magic Armour 
Killing Blow and Poison Rules have no effect against the bearer and are treated as ordinary attacks.

Crystalized Death Magic
This perfect amethyst Gem radiates power, yet this power is a treacherous one.
Vampires and infantry only. The Bearer has +1T. However whenever the bearer loses a wound a leadership test must be succeed (no rerolls allowed). If failed replace the character with a Varghulf Model as close to it's previous position and facing as possible. The Model leaves any units it had joined.

 

2. Luthor Harkon and Wallach Harkon (He's on the map) or the Red Duke (because he used to be a Duke of Bretonnia)

3. Bloodlines (see above) and Vampire Coast.

 

 

Just my ideas

 

 

Edited April 4 by JackStreicher
Added items

[Double Misfire]

Wow, what a post. You're obviously going thorough on this! 👏👏👏🦇

Here are my two brass coins:

 

Bloodlines

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The Alternative to explicit bloodline rules is to include more new vampiric powers that are clearly themed to the old bloodlines, but without being explicitly tied to a bloodline system.  Ideally these should come with both benefits and drawbacks so that players don't just put all the best powers on a single hero.

This please!  

Milage may vary, but I always thought 5th and 6th ed bracketing the four/five bloodlines into their own separate powersets took away more characterful options than it added. Keep the Bloodlines prominent in the background (and possibly as Armies of Infamy), but allow players to build vampires how they want. Want a Blood Dragon? Boom, bloodline power that gives you +2 Weapon Skill and full plate, and only lets you take a single spell level. Necrarch? Load up on bloodline powers that boost your spellcasting and arcane items.

Bloodline powers being binary also feels prohibitive to how characters are represented in the background. Konrad or Ulrika Magdova align much more closely with 5th/6th ed's take on Blood Dragons than Von Carsteins/Lahmians, and Mannfred's whole schtick of harnessing the dark arts feels way more in line with those editions' Necrarch rules. Even Vlad's supernatural charm, per restricted power lists would be a Lahmian thing.

Additionally, regarding the TOW setting, the Von Carsteins who aren't extinct by then would be doing a damn good job of pretending to be extinct, meaning that if Bloodlines were explicitly included we'd be down the most iconic one.

 

Special Characters

I'm all for not having Aborash around. He's up there with primarchs the Emperor I guess as things that should never have in game stats, and probably wouldn't have much interest in leading armies/raising the dead anyway.

Ushoran is very dead. Who knows how he came back in AoS.

Dieter Hellsnicht's a fun choice, he's just not a terrifically interesting character, and between his introduction and the End Times didn't show up once - doesn't mean he's not ripe to be fleshed out though. (that CoS manticore!)

Luthor Harkon - does he exactly leave the Vampire Coast? Game's called The Old World for a reason.

Walach Harkon exists I guess and is nice and boring.

Someone new - during a time of relative vampiric inactivity in the Old World, it might be fun to include a named ghost character, a wraith or banshee cursed to walk the blasted battlefields of a thousand year civil war, the revenant of an unknown soldier or widow unable to rest until Sigmar's Empire is unified once more.

Mikael Jacsen

 

Armies of Infamy

Strigoi/ghouls seem like the obvious option if you're willing to co-opt Flesh-eater Courts models, Crypt Guard would look cool as all heck ranked up. Thematic when there aren't troves of of true Undead roving around, and at home in the Border Princes. Strigany are a must, skirmishing special choice?

Vampires entrenched in human society - Hel Fenn being a much more recent memory, and Witch Hunters being absolutely everywhere during the time of the Three Emperors, I'm not sure I buy humans being willing to fight alongside skeletons and zombies. Also wouldn't vamps entrenched in human society just be a few vampire characters in a no frills Empire or Bretonnian army, and not a 'Vampire Counts' army so to speak?

All Cav Knightly Order Blood Dragons - this works. It ain't exciting, but it works.

Pirates of the Vampire Coast - the Armies of Infamy we've seen for TOW so far are built around existing units in their parent list, with a few thematic additions, with the intention presumably being a new way to play or spice up your existing force. Vampire Coast per the White Dwarf army list back in the day, or Total War: Warhammer would be a completely new army list, with little to know carry over from the core VC roster. Also per Luthor Harkon (and High Elves), Old World...?

Actually a ghost themed Army of Infamy drawing on some of the less out there Nighthaunt stuff and expanding on the civil war victims idea I came up with for a new special character could be neat.

 

New Magic Items and Vampiric Powers

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Blood Scions (Von Carstein only, may only be taken on your army's general): If this model is slain (and not returned to life via the Carstein Ring or similar effect), then you may choose another vampire character in your army that is still on the field to immediately become your general.  Your general is not treated as slain for victory points purposes or the 'Death of a General' rule.  If the chosen model is later slain then your opponent gains victory points for defeating your general and your army suffers the 'Death of a General' effects as normal.

Paying for an upgrade that only pays off if they personally get killed feels off brand for a vampire general. Maybe offer it as an upgrade for non general characters instead, representing an ambitious usurper?

 

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Dread Knight (Blood Dragon only): this vampire is equipped with Full Plate armor.  In addition, whenever an enemy character or champion refuses this vampire's challenge, this vampire gains +1 attack until the end of the turn.

Would it be more characterful if the vampire got so hacked off at nobody wanting to receive his challenge that he gained Frenzy?

 

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• Red Fury - This vampire gains the hatred (all enemies) and Frenzy rules, and cannot lose them during the game.

Redundant if Dread Knight were to give Frenzy the way I suggested. Maybe just go for the classic Red Fury where each unsaved wound gives the vampire an extra (non stacking) attack?

 

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Master of Mortals (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general) - your army may include Mercenaries taken from the following: Empire State Troops, Empire Missile Troops, Empire Archers.  While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic domination is broken.  Your army may not include allies.

Even going bloodline agnostic, this is a Von Carstein party trick and there aren't a lot of them around...

Also entire units legging it no matter where they are on the battlefield feels like an anti climax for your opponent. Maybe have them continue to fight at -4 leadership, so opponents can enjoy making them leg it and running them down.

 

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Circle of Blood (Vampire Count Grand Army only, may only be taken by your general, who must be mounted on a Nightmare) - your army may include a single unit of Blood Knights as a Core Unit, and may include Mercenary units taken from the following: either Empire Knights or Brettonian Knights of the Realm, but not both.  While they are within this models command range, these mercenary units are Immune to Psychology and do not suffer the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule, but if this model is slain all such mercenary units are immediately removed as casualties - they come to their senses and flee the field as the hypnotic domination is broken.  Your army may not include allies.

Blood Dragons don't typically lead/pal around with human knights, just beat the hell out them in duals and grand the blood kiss if they put up a good enough fight. Beguiling them feels especially off brand.

I like the idea of Bloodline powers on a general unlocking list building options, in the same way as Dwarf King, Black Orc, ect generals. Could get complicated though!

 

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So, any thoughts or feedback on the direction so far?  In particular:

Should there be an explicit Bloodlines rules layer, or no?  I'm leaning no at the moment, but have been waffling back and forth since tOW's release.

 

Oh boy, think I already covered most of these. Hard no on segregated Bloodlines!

 

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Are Luthor Harkon and a new named Ghoul King the right special characters to go with?  Should Hellsnicht be there instead of one of those, and if so is there a model or easy conversion available to represent him?  Should we ignore time frames and just bring back the Von Carsteins?

Luthor Harkon, heck no. Ghoul King, if you can find a way to make him distinct from a baseline Ghoul King, sure. Hellsnicht's a nice safe choice - CoS manticore with bat wings and a new rider; you can even keep the weird wooden seat.

If you're gonna ignore the timeline and introduce Von Carsteins you might as well write TOW rules for Stormcast 😜
 

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Are Vampire Pirates and Ghoul Courts the right choices for Armies of Infamy?  If not, what do think is a better choice?

Vampire Pirates - gosh no. Ghouls - gosh yes.

Safe second choice: Blood Knights. Out there second choice: ghosts.
 

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Is it ok to use bloodline powers to make cheeky adjustments to the Grand Army composition, or is that a bad design direction?  Are there any particular new or returning Vampiric Powers or Magic Items that you think a Vampire Counts Arcane Journal needs to include, or should avoid?

It's a tough call. In the Forces of Fantasy and Ravening Hordes lists who you have as your general and other character choices do affect army composition, but upgrades like Marks of Chaos don't...

I'd veer on the side of caution, and not have Bloodline powers affect composition. The only thing they'd really unlock would be Blood Knights, and how many of those guys is it really fair to take?!

[Sception]

35 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

1. Yes. The First army of Infamy could be Bloodlines in general. Adding 1-2 Abilities per Bloodline as well as 1-2 changes in army building.
My Suggestions:

Von Carstein: -  (+15 pts)
- Can field one unit of State Troops, Crossbowmen or Handgunners per 1000 pts.
- Vampiric Power to summon/add one Model of Fell Bats (use the Necromancy Spell to summon Zombies) with a power level of 2 (or the level of the caster if it is higher) (30 pts).
- Walking Death (may be picked twice, but not by the same vampire): +1 Combat resolution (20pts each)

There's already mechanics for AoI using cross-faction units, ie mercenaries.  If we go for this sort of thing, then that's the mechanic you should use for Sylvanian human levies.  There's already a vampiric power for calling bats & wolves - it heals rather than summons, but that's still a bit too much overlap imo.  I think we should avoid messing with the limits on vampiric powers that exist in the grand army.  Not sure what the +15 points is for?  Ideally base modifiers for bloodlines should match advantages with disadvantages to net no points modification.  Also we should avoid charging more than once (ie 1 points per vampire hero) for a benefit that only applies once (access to empire units in the army)
 

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Lahmian: -1 weapon skill and always strikes first , -1 LD for enemy units in Base contact but cannot wear non-magical armour, gains a ward of 5+ if no armour heavier than light armour is worn (+35 pts)
- Vampiric Ability to cast miasmic mirage as bound spell with a powerlevel of 2 (35 pts)
- One Wight may pick a single Vampiric Ability

Not sure where the reduced weapon skill is coming from?  If anything, wouldn't Neferata's blood have superior weapon skill?  Maybe reduced strength if we wanted a penalty.  Leadership debuff also feels to strong to give out to every vampire - maybe a one off vampiric power?

letting a wight pick a vampiric ability is interesting, but I'm not sure it's Lahmian.

 

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Blood Dragon: +2 WS, automaticially wears plate armour, +1S. May attempt to dispell magic despite wearing armour (+1 for Thrallsm, +2 for Counts) (+55 pts)
- One unit of Blood Knigths or Black Knights per 1000 pts may use the Lance Formation.
- Black Knights and Grave Guards are Battleline, all previous battleline choices are moved to the special section
Vampiric Power: Master Strike - The Vampire gains the Monster Slayer and Killing blow special rule. (50 pts)

The base modifiers feel like way too much.  Also, lance formation is a complicated mess, and is a brettonian signature thing where most blood knights aren't drawn from brettonian orders, they're more typically empire knights.  Hard no there.  I get wanting core black knights, but I'm not sure increased wight use is lore accurate.  Do you have supporting references?

 

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Necrarch: Upgradable to LV 4, Necromancer Keyword added. -2 WS, may receive two magical Items of the same category, can't be equipped with non-magical items (+25 pts)
- One Cairn Wraith or Spirit Host unit may be taken as Core Choice.
- Every Necrarch Vampire is allowed to pick the Dark Acolyte Ability even if another Necrarch Vampire has already picked it.

What's the point of making them necromancers?  Doesn't do anything.  Again I'm iffy on messing with the grand army's restriction on vampiric powers, would rather add enough caster friendly powers to allow a few necrarch style vampires without repeats.
 

Quote

Strigoi: Counts as is,
Strigoi Thralls gain hatred (all) and poison attacks, -1 WS, +1T. No mounts.
- One unit of Vargheists or Crypt Horrors per 1000 Points may be taken as Core Choice.
- One Terrorgheist may be taken as special choice.

By 'strigoi counts' do you mean ghoul kings?  ghoul kings and vampires are different enough in options and rules that I'd be inclined to just introduce a separate unit entry for 'Ghoul Prince' rather than trying to turn thralls into one.  IMO strigoi should be treated as its own thing, and not try to roll it into the other bloodlines.

 

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2. Luthor Harkon and Wallach Harkon (He's on the map) or the Red Duke (because he used to be a Duke of Bretonnia)

Wallach is an interesting suggestion.  I'll go look at him some more

 

Quote

3. Bloodlines (see above) and Vampire Coast.

 

If we wanted to try to do a single AoI for all the bloodlines (minus strigoi, they're just too different), then here was my most recent take, before I abandoned the concept in favor of vampire coast:

'Vampire Court' army of infamy.  Throughout the Old World vampires are feared for their ability to raise vast armies of the dead and wage war on the living, but the true threat of the vampire is more subtle - their ability to imitate the living, infiltrate human societies, and dominate them from within.  The 'Vampire Court' army of infamy represents a clan of vampires who have subverted and taken control over a local mortal population.  This might be Blood Dragons who have subverted a knightly order, Necrarchs who have taken control of an institute of arcane research, or Von Carsteins or Lahmians who have infiltrated the local aristocracy.

Characters - Up to 50% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Vampire Count or Vampire Thrall
• 0-1 Wight Lord or Cairn Wraith per 1,000 points
• Necromantic Acolytes

Core - At least 25% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 1+ Bat Swarms or Dire Wolves
• Zombies and Skeleton Warriors

Special - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• 0-1 Unit of Black Guard or Black Knights per Wight Lord taken
• 0-1 Unit of Spirit Hosts per Cairn Wraith taken
• 0-1 Corpse Carts per Necromantic Acolyte taken
• Fell Bats and Vampire Newbloods

Rare - Up to 33% of the army's points value may be spent on:

• Black Coaches, Vargheists, and Blood Knights

Mercenaries - Up to 25% of the army's points value may be spent on Mercenaries, including:

• Empire State Troop, State Missile Troops, Empire Knights (see the Empire of Man army list on page 59 of Forces of Fantasy)

If you choose for your Vampiric Court to hail from a particular Bloodline (see the example bloodline rules in the initial post), apply the following modifications:

Von Carstein: One Black Coach may be taken as a Special choice
Lahmian: replace all instances of 'Cairn Wraith' with 'Tomb Banshee'
Blood Dragon: One unit of Blood Knights may be taken as a Special choice.
Necrarch: replace all instances of 'Blood Knights' with 'Hexwraiths'

Special Rules:

Vampire Lord: the general does not have to be a wizard, but must instead be the vampire character with the highest leadership in your army. If more than one vampire is tied for highest leadership, you choose which one is the general. The 'Death of a General' rules from the Vampire Counts Grand Army applies as normal.

Blood Feast: during your strategy phase each of your Vampire characters may feed on a friendly mercenary unit within their command range. If they do so, roll a d3 - the chosen unit suffers that many wounds which cannot be prevented in any way, while the vampire heals up to that many wounds lost earlier in the battle.

Blood Magic: whenever one of your Vampire Counts or Vampire Thralls attempts to cast a spell, they may choose to draw power from the blood of a friendly mercenary unit within their command range. If they do so, roll a d3 - the chosen unit suffers that many wounds which cannot be prevented in any way, and the vampire adds an equal bonus to the casting roll.

New Units:

Vampire Newblood: m5, ws5, bs3, s4, t4, w1, i4, a2, ld7, 30 points

Troop Type: regular infantry (unit champion)
Base Size: 25x25
Unit Size: n/a (see below)
Equipment: Hand Weapon

Magic: a Vampire Newblood may be a wizard (see below). A Vampire Newblood that is a wizard knows spells from one of the following lores:

• Dark Magic
• Illusion
• Necromancy

Options:

• May take one of the following:
  - Additional Hand Weapon +1 points
  - Great Weapon +2 points
  - Lance (if appropriately mounted) +2 points
• May take a shield +1 points
• May take one of the following:
  - Light Armor +1 points
  - Heavy Armor +3 points
• May be a level 1 wizard +25 points
• May purchase magic items up to a total of 25 points
• May purchase vampiric powers up to a total of 25 points
• If attached to a unit of cavalry (see below), must be mounted on a Nightmare for +8 points

Special Rules: Champions of the Night, Blood Scions, Flammable, Lore of Undeath, Regeneration (6+)

Champions of the Night: Vampire Newbloods are purchased from the army's Special units allowance, but do not operate as units of their own. Instead, when you are selecting your army roster each Vampire Newblood must be attached to a unit of Skeleton Warriors, Zombies, Grave Guard, Black Knights, Empire State Troops, Empire Missile Troops, or Empire Knights in the army, where they are treated the same as a unit champion. If the unit already has a champion of its own, then they will have two champions. Each unit may only have a single Vampire Newblood attached to it. If attached to a unit with the Necromantic Undead keyword, then the Vampire Newblood gains the Necromantic Undead, Dark Vitality, and Indomitable (1) special rules. If attached to a Mercenary unit, then the Vampire Newblood gains the Fear and Immune to Psychology special rules, and the unit they are attached to is not subject to the Misbehaving Mercenaries rule as long as the Vampire Newblood is alive.

Blood Scions: If you choose for your army to be from one of the Old World Bloodlines, then apply the same modifiers to Vampire Newbloods that you apply to Vampire Counts and Thralls.

.....

Problems with this Approach:

Obviously I put a fair bit of work into this approach, and I could be convinced to return to it if Bloodlines is 100% what people want, but there are reasons I set it aside.

First of all, there's really no great way to represent all the bloodlines with a single army of infamy, even if we leave out the Strigoi.  Either the AoI isn't really flexible enough to properly represent each bloodline, or else it's /too/ flexible and essentially becomes 4 different Armies of Infamy pretending to just be one, which defeats the entire point of sticking to the limit of 2 per arcane journal.  This is a homebrew supplement, if we really want to break the rules and have more than two armies of infamy in the supplement we should just do that.

Second, putting an 'every bloodline in one' army of infamy in the arcane journal kind of forecloses the possiblity of introducing more specific bloodline armies of infamy in future homebrew project.  Again, I think narrative campaign supplements looking at events outside of the Old Worlds target time period is a particularly ripe avenue to follow.  Sure we could do both, but if we do then once we've released better more focused AoIs for specific bloodlines elsewhere, the 'everything to everyone' AoI will be defunct anyway, as you'd never run that over a 'Sylvanian Levy' AoI if you were playing Von Carsteins or a 'Knights of the Blood Keep' AoI if you're playing blood dragons, etc.

Third bloodlines force mechanical leanings in ways that don't really line up with the fluff.  Like, Yes Neferata generally chooses women with similar dispositions and fighting styles for her personal court, but they also sometimes turn dashing warriors to use as pawns and bodyguards who mechanically are more like Blood Dragons.  Or take Luthor Harkon - the most recent lore has his vampiric ancestry unknown, but earlier lore and still the most likely ancestry has him as a blood dragon, yet his personal strengths are in spellcasting, a master of both sea witch magic and necromancy.  Or look at the most famous vampire family, the Von Carsteins.  Just in the big four named heroes with models you have a balanced some-of-everything general, a graceful lady more at home in the court than the battlefield, an arcane prodigy equal to any the necrarch line has ever produced, and a bloodmad warrior who eschewed magic and subtlety in favor of arms, armor, and brute force.  These are all in the same bloodline and at times fought together on the same battlefield.  So are your supernatural talents and specialties as a vampire in the warhammer world inherited from your sire, in a way that concrete bloodline rules across a whole army imply, or are they down to the individual predilictions of the vampire in question, in which case army-wide bloodline rules are kind of contrary to the narrative?

Fourth it's just an extra layer of rules on top of rules that feels a bit out of place in the Old World.  Explicit subfactions are mostly gone in favor of Armies of Infamy, and those AoIs are, at least so far, super narratively focused and specific, in a way that, again, a single AoI trying to represent 4 or 5 very different concepts just feels wrong.

Fifth, one of the key features of Armies of Infamy is new units, and there's just not a lot of obvious concepts for that in a bloodline AoI.  Even my suggested 'newbloods' are just a different way to use vampire heroes.  You could add a vampire infantry unit, but it would want to be wildly different from bloodline to bloodline, and there's not much in the way of good model/conversion concepts for it.  Compare to vampirates, which have zombie pirates (free company + zombie parts), drowned knights (empire/bret knights with zombie parts and/or painted ghostly), etc, or to ghoul courts where you have all the new FEC stuff to draw from.

.............................

So again, I'm open to folks trying to convince me to go back to bloodline rules and/or a multi-bloodline AoI, but at the moment I think it's probably the wrong direction.

 

Quote

Just my ideas

Greatly appreciated!  I absolutely need people to bounce ideas off of.
 

[JerekKruger]

Will post a more detailed response later, but with respect to named characters, are Kemmler and Krell around yet? I've always had a soft spot for the Lich Master and his super powered Wight King.

As for something completely new, how about a lesser known Von Carstein who somehow survived the Vampire Wars? A chance to create a completely new character.

 

Or if we want to go with a different bloodline my vote would be for a Necrarch or Lahmian. The former could be the prototypical lone necromantic experimenter hiding away in the wilderness, creating necromantic horrors; whilst the latter could be a Lahmian who has enthralled a Border Prince to her will and rules through her puppet.

Also, given we can do whatever we want, is there any reason to restrict ourselves to the limitations of GW's Arcane Journals. We can do more than two armies of infamy, or more than three named characters if we want.

[JackStreicher]

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

Not sure where the reduced weapon skill is coming from?  If anything, wouldn't Neferata's blood have superior weapon skill?  Maybe reduced strength if we wanted a penalty.  Leadership debuff also feels to strong to give out to every vampire - maybe a one off vampiric power?

It's in the 6th edition army book. Lahmians aren't warriors.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

What's the point of making them necromancers?  Doesn't do anything.  Again I'm iffy on messing with the grand army's restriction on vampiric powers, would rather add enough caster friendly powers to allow a few necrarch style vampires without repeats

Grants access to different Magic Items, restricts every army to max one Necrarch Count.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

There's already mechanics for AoI using cross-faction units, ie mercenaries.  If we go for this sort of thing, then that's the mechanic you should use for Sylvanian human levies.  There's already a vampiric power for calling bats & wolves - it heals rather than summons, but that's still a bit too much overlap imo.  I think we should avoid messing with the limits on vampiric powers that exist in the grand army.  Not sure what the +15 points is for?  Ideally base modifiers for bloodlines should match advantages with disadvantages to net no points modification.  Also we should avoid charging more than once (ie 1 points per vampire hero) for a benefit that only applies once (access to empire units in the army)

One could use them for sure, or simply the allies (which wouldn't work since Allies need a commander). The idea was for him to summon a Fell Bat instead of 2D3 Zombies.
The +15 points were for having access to shooting.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

By 'strigoi counts' do you mean ghoul kings?  ghoul kings and vampires are different enough in options and rules that I'd be inclined to just introduce a separate unit entry for 'Ghoul Prince' rather than trying to turn thralls into one.  IMO strigoi should be treated as its own thing, and not try to roll it into the other bloodlines

Good suggestions! You might also just call the lwoer tier Vampire Courtier.

 

18 minutes ago, Sception said:

Fourth it's just an extra layer of rules on top of rules that feels a bit out of place in the Old World.  Explicit subfactions are mostly gone in favor of Armies of Infamy, and those AoIs are, at least so far, super narratively focused and specific, in a way that, again, a single AoI trying to represent 4 or 5 very different concepts just feels wrong.

Let's make a single "Bloodline" Count per Bloodline then equal to the Ghoul King representing the Strigoi. It would solve the mess, keep it simple and focussed. Abilities and Items could be added as usual . Picking the specific count could unlock more army building possibilities etc.
However I agree that it lacks direction and a theme (it's not like a Crusade or anything).
Vampire coast would make sense since Khemri is sending a fleet. Mousillon hasn't fallen yet (iirc) so Blood Dragons don't come into play yet.
The Necrarch could smell a chance to get their hands on ancient knowledge and the Lahmians are always up to blocking Khemri.
Strigoi are mostly in the badlands, so they're out too.

So Necrarch/Lahmia + Vampire Coast?

Further ideas for lahmia: Human thralls acting as bodyguards, agility, fragility, illusion and charm as playstyle, no brute force (no Zombie Dragon?)

Edited April 4 by JackStreicher

[Double Misfire]

3 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

Will post a more detailed response later, but with respect to named characters, are Kemmler and Krell around yet? I've always had a soft spot for the Lich Master and his super powered Wight King.

Necromancer With Hat might be around. He'd be quite young though, which sort of undermines his whole shtick. I suggested him as a dark horse for the Empire in the special character thread.

Krell is still under a rock in the Grey Mountains after Sigmar made him regular dead.

[Sception]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Let's make a single "Bloodline" Count per Bloodline then equal to the Ghoul King representing the Strigoi. It would solve the mess, keep it simple and focussed. Abilities and Items could be added as usual

I'm very inclined towards this, but instead of putting them all in the arcane Journal (breaking the 2 AoI per AJ precedent) I figured we could do an arcane journal sticking to the most active vamp count stuff in old world times, then move away from the core game time period to do campaign books covering each of the classic bloodline's most notable campaigns, each with an Army of Infamy, special characters, etc targeted just to that bloodline in particular - as well as for whoever they were fighting against.  It delays the classic bloodlines considerably, and makes it less likely their homebrew books would see wide adoption outside of local gaming groups. but I don't really expect that even for the initial AJ, and putting that stuff in a more detailed and focused campaign book instead of the more surface level AJ format imo would do them better justice.

[Sception]

44 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

Luthor Harkon - does he exactly leave the Vampire Coast? Game's called The Old World for a reason.

Thanks a ton for your in depth reply!  I will look at and respond to it in more detail when I have a bit more time later (its good to hear someone share my thoughts on bloodline rules, even if I spent hours trying to work on them), but in response to this particular point... Vamp Counts are a legacy faction, and it's not in our power to change that.  We can't make Vampire Counts active in the Old World any more than a homebrew dark elf or lizardmen AJ could do that for their factions, and just as a homebrew arcane Journal for dark elves or lizardmen would instead focus on whatever they're doing where they are at that time (instead of in the old world, where they mostly aren't), so too IMO should our homebrew vamp counts AJ focus on where the Vampires are most active right now (as of the Old World's timeframe).  And the place with the most and the most active vampires in the 'current' time frame is Sartosa, right?  Unless I'm missing something, which i easily could be, I'm no expert on old world lore.

Heck, if we find and link up with people doing the same for dark elves specifically, we could link up to talk about how we're operating in similar areas, sometimes allying with each other, list each others' AoIs as allies, etc, make references to some shared events in lore write ups, etc.

[JerekKruger]

How about Zacharias the Ever Living as a named character. He seems to be alive at this time, and has been a character before.

[Sception]

Krell: Currently Dead.

Kemmler: either not born yet or still young or crazed and broken in the hills after his first round of apprentices betrayed him.  Regardless, he isn't the guy we know him as until he finds Krell, and that's still a long time off

Zacharias: if he's born yet he's either still a normal human or is still an acolyte of Melkhior, who might just be W'Soran by another name.  Either way, iirc Melkhior's the current top necrarch, not Zacharias yet.

Melkhior is an option.  I'm inclined against, but could be convinced if anybody can point to particularly interesting lore regarding something he's currently up to, or point to a particularly compelling model currently available in physical or 3d print file form to represent him.

Regarding the CoS manticore for Dieter: I've looked at this a bunch since the model released, and sadly I think it's a much more difficult conversion project than you'd expect.  The chair is kind of built between the characters legs in a way that would force anyone doing it to largely resculpt whatever rider you tried to put there along with significant portions of the seat itself, and the manticore's feathered wings are much harder to properly tetter and undead-ify than if it had bat wings.  There aren't really great bat wing options to replace them with.  It could be done, but it would require more conversion skill than I'm willing to demand of a hypothetical random player who might convince their local club to let them use our book.  I'm not otherwise opposed to Dieter, he's a good choice and as much as he's a blankish slate that just gives us more room to play around with him, but imo we'd need to find another more reasonable path to representing him on the table first.

Edited April 4 by Sception

[Double Misfire]

8 minutes ago, Sception said:

Thanks a ton for your in depth reply!  I will look at and respond to it in more detail when I have a bit more time later (its good to hear someone share my thoughts on bloodline rules, even if I spent hours trying to work on them), but in response to this particular point... Vamp Counts are a legacy faction, and it's not in our power to change that.  We can't make Vampire Counts active in the Old World any more than a homebrew dark elf or lizardmen AJ could do that for their factions, and just as a homebrew arcane Journal for dark elves or lizardmen would instead focus on whatever they're doing where they are at that time (instead of in the old world, where they mostly aren't), so too IMO should our homebrew vamp counts AJ focus on where the Vampires are most active right now (as of the Old World's timeframe).  And the place with the most and the most active vampires in the 'current' time frame is Sartosa, right?  Unless I'm missing something, which i easily could be, I'm no expert on old world lore.

Heck, if we find and link up with people doing the same for dark elves specifically, we could link up to talk about how we're operating in similar areas, sometimes allying with each other, list each others' AoIs as allies, etc, make references to some shared events in lore write ups, etc.

Thanks for the sharing your ideas, hope I what I typed was helpful, or at least interesting.

The legacy faction thing is a harsh truth. I really like your idea of going back in time for a Vampire Wars 'campaign book' (or books?) when the core Arcane Journal is done. Maybe you could differentiate them by having the Arcane Journal focus on the limited vampiric forces active in TOW's location and time period, and then go back in time and expand with further campaign books?

Sartosa's not really remotely associated with the undead or vampires, bar the 'Sartosan' piratical vampire and two zombies GW released in the 2000s and needing somewhere appropriate for Aranessa Saltspite (herself not undead or a vampire) in the Total War games - it's just a Tilean city with an awful lot of pirates.

The biggest vampiric hotbed in the Old World during TOW would be Silver Pinnacle. It's just up the road from Karak Kadrin, maybe Ungrim was feeling especially proactive after his coronation and lead a doomed army of Slayers to reclaim it?

 

23 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

How about Zacharias the Ever Living as a named character. He seems to be alive at this time, and has been a character before.

The 7th ed VC book says he didn't beat up and possibly kill Melkhior till 2506, so he's either either Melkhior's apprentice, very young or hasn't been born yet.

[Double Misfire]

13 minutes ago, Sception said:

Regarding the CoS manticore for Dieter: I've looked at this a bunch since the model released, and sadly I think it's a much more difficult conversion project than you'd expect.  The chair is kind of built between the characters legs in a way that would force anyone doing it to largely resculpt whatever rider you tried to put there along with significant portions of the seat itself, and the manticore's feathered wings are much harder to properly tetter and undead-ify than if it had bat wings.  There aren't really great bat wing options to replace them with.  It could be done, but it would require more conversion skill than I'm willing to demand of a hypothetical random player who might convince their local club to let them use our book.  I'm not otherwise opposed to Dieter, he's a good choice and as much as he's a blankish slate that just gives us more room to play around with him, but imo we'd need to find another more reasonable path to representing him on the table first.

Pretty great looking attempt at getting a Chaos Sorcerer on here. Greenstuff required though!

 

[JerekKruger]

2 minutes ago, Double Misfire said:

The 7th ed VC book says he didn't beat up and possibly kill Melkhior till 2506, so he's either either Melkhior's apprentice, very young or hasn't been born yet.

I'll take Melkhior instead. I prefer his name to be honest 😄

I just live me some Necrarchs.

[Sception]

2 hours ago, Double Misfire said:

Sartosa's not really remotely associated with the undead or vampires, bar the 'Sartosan' piratical vampire and two zombies GW released in the 2000s and needing somewhere appropriate for Aranessa Saltspite (herself not undead or a vampire) in the Total War games - it's just a Tilean city with an awful lot of pirates.

Haha, whoops!  Like I said, I'm no expert in the old world lore.  I had it in my head somehow that Sartosa was the proper name for the Vampire Coast.  😛

[Sarouan]

Arcane Journals are tied to the events described in TOW time period, so I'd suggest not to work on things that can't be there at this time, like von carstein or vampire coast (Luthor didn't make it there yet).

Armies of Infamies can be about bloodlines, in a certain way. I'd tend to lean towards the ghoul armies (1+ crypt ghouls, 0-1 Crypt Horrors per strygoi ghoul king in core with zombies and skeletons in special, for example) and maybe Neferata's minions (she's the most likely to be still active in secret, and she's certainly the most disturbed with recent Khemri activity nearby her domain) more based on vampires, enthralled living servants and of course finely equiped grave guards / black knights in core.

[Sarouan]

mistake

Edited April 5 by Sarouan
mistake

[Sception]

6 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Arcane Journals are tied to the events described in TOW time period, so I'd suggest not to work on things that can't be there at this time, like von carstein or vampire coast (Luthor didn't make it there yet).

The specific time and place of the Old World published game is the space claimed by first party content.  Homebrew content should respect that claim.

Homebrew content is for everything that GW has said they don't intend to cover - the rest of the world (via homebrew arcane journals for those factions GW has said aren't active in the Old World right now), the rest of the timeline (via homebrew historical campaigns).

My resolve on this point has only strengthened overnight.  Homebrew arcane jounals for the legacy factions should embrace the idea that those factions aren't part of current events in the old world, and should instead be used to fill in the details of what else is going on in the wider warhammer world at the same time.

Ogre and Chaos Dwarf AJs should cover what's happening over the mountains to the east.  Dark Elf, Lizardmen, and, yes, Vampire Counts AJs should cover what's going on over the ocean to the West.

I'm not saying the VC AJ should be exclusively Vampire Coast, but it absolutely should be at least a major focus.

Edited April 5 by Sception

[JackStreicher]

In this case:

The seas are in turmoil, Ulthuan suffers from Raider attacks and Plunderings (Chaos, DE, Vamps). 
 

[Sarouan]

11 hours ago, Sception said:

The specific time and place of the Old World published game is the space claimed by first party content.  Homebrew content should respect that claim.

Certainly not. If that was the case, no one would be able to build its own army with its own background in the Old World, you would only be able to take existing named characters and that would be very boring.

But well, you do what you want with your homebrew rules.

[Beliman]

On 4/4/2024 at 6:55 PM, Sception said:

Pirates of the Vampire Coast - Luthor Harkon being probably the best option for special character makes this probably the best choice for Army of Infamy, with obvious additions, many stolen from total warhammer, that are easy to model in zombie pirates (mix and match empire free company with zombie bits) and cannons (take empire cannon models and just stick zombies or skeletons next to them as the crew), damned knights (brettonian knights painted in ghostly colors), Mournguls (no longer sold by GW, but still available on the secondary market), maybe even undead sea monsters (paint dark elf charybdis or hydra with dead flesh, maybe convert a bit of battle damage), etc.  They also have a history of allying with Dark Elves, which could make for some interesting allied armies with extra pirate feel from coursairs and the like.  The only downside here is that Vampire Coast might eventually get to be its own official faction in tOW, but if that does happen it won't be any time soon

This alone will be enough for me to start a Vampire Count army.

[Sception]

Ok, first of all, big thanks to everyone for the feedback so far, even the feedback I've opted not to go with.

I am at this point firmly committed to Luthor Harkon being one of the two special characters, and Vampire Pirates being one of the two Armies of Infamy in the Arcane Journal.  Points in support:

• We are post Von-Carstein wars, post-revenge of the red duke, indeed post-cleansing of Sylvania, but not by so long that the Empire, Brettonia, and the rest of the old world aren't well familiar with Vampires and the threat they represent.  Vampire activity in the old world is at an ebb.
• But Vampire activity in the new world remains strong.  Luthor has ruled openly over his little empire on the coast of Lustria for over a thousand years now.  Though his mind was broken by a Lustrian Artefact, costing him his prostigious arcane abilities, he has still successfully maintained and grown his territory for centuries despite frequent conflict with both High Elves and Lizardmen.  One could make a case that Luthor Harkon is the most successful vampiric warlord over the entire history of the Old World and certainly the the most successful one acting openly in the target time period.  Reading up on him has definitely justified the rank of Mortarch he was eventually granted in the End Times.
• For those who prefer to keep their focus exclusively on the Old World: "1127 IC - By this point, Luthor Harkons Zombie Pirates are known and feared by the sailors of the Old World." (from the fandom wiki timeline) - that's, again, well over a thousand years prior to the games time period, and nothing in that time has happened to reduce his influence or renown.  And while the canon does not include an invasion of the Old World at this time period, as a trans-oceanic naval power Harkon's vampire pirates certainly ~could~ have done so.
• Luthor Harkon isn't the only Undead Pirate captain, just the most well known and successful.  We're still two centuries before Count Noctilus and the Dreadfleet, but his existence in the timeline shoes that Vampire Pirate fleets significant enough to have a major impact on the course of Old World history are not limited just to Luthor Harkon.
• Vampire Pirates - whether loyal to Harkon or otherwise, have been tied to Sartosa off the Tilean coast multiple times, both by games workshop themselves (Vampire Captain of Sartosa and Vampire Pirate of Sartosa GW models, Drekla - Luthor's right hand during the End Times, was a Sartosan vampire pirate captain), and by third parties working with their permission, of course most notably Total War.  From Total War II: Aranessa Saltspite is contemporary with Noctilus and so still a couple centuries off, but was a prominant sartosan pirate queen of her day who had both living and undead pirate crews including vampires working openly for her), so while I haven't found specific canon confirming an undead presence in Sartosa at the time the Old World is set, it is if anything more likely than not, and provides ample justification for Vampire Pirates to be be active along the coasts of the Old World as well.
• Straying from vampires to undead in general, Total War also introduced also Cylostra Direfin, a Brettonian Banshee pirate queen.  She's active at the time of Noctilus, but it's unclear how long she's been around, so she could already be a thing in the Old World's time period.  Her particular pirates included ghostly brettonian knights, who maybe we wouldn't want to include because they're kind of specific to her and hexwraiths already exist as ghostly cavalry, but on the other hand they'd be super easy to represent in game.
• Vampires at this time have been largely hounded out of the noble courts of The Empire and Brettonia, and those that remain will be looking for refuge away from witch hunters and the like.  If vampire pirates are a known thing and pirate havens in general are by definition outside the influence of rightful authorities, then it makes sense that more vampires will have taken to the seas.
   
• Lore Justifications aside, Total War also provides ample suggestions for what a Vampire Pirate army of infamy could look like, including new units, most of which should be easy enough to convert (or have ready enough third party alternatives) that they could easily be incorporated, though others, like the giant undead crabs, are maybe a bit much.  As they were a full faction of their own distinct from Vampire Counts, there are, if anything, ~too many~ new unit ideas from Total Warhammer to choose from, so they'll have to be taken with care.  In particular there are a lot of black powder options, and while black powder weapons do exist in the Old Worlds time period, they were rare enough that we probably shouldn't go overboard on them.  In addition to lore concerns, there's also the balance concerns of adding ranged firepower to a faction that's normally light on shooting.  The Brettonian exiles army of infamy should provide a useful model here - though of course brettonians are known to have more shooting than vampires normally.  At the same time, shooting provides a clear and obvious way to mechanically distinguish the Vampire Pirate aoi from the grand army.
• between out of print first party models, 3rd party options, and easy conversions, even a couple nighthaunt models that could port over, there's a lot of model support for this concept:

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

etc etc, really no end of examples.

That's on top of basic models like zombies, skeletons, dire wolves, fellbats, spirit hosts, etc, which should port over well enough without needing conversion or substitution.

Yeah, I'm pretty married to this one, if that's a deal breaker for anyone who was interested in this project, I'm sorry.

The next steps for the Vampire Pirates part of the project will be going over the Total Warhammer implementation for ideas that can be stolen, since that's the most in-depth (har har) version of the faction we've seen, and had the blessing of the GW design studio.

...........

But that's just one of the two special characters, and one of the two armies of infamy.  The other is still open.

Walach Harkon was mentioned above, and at this point in the timeline he's suspected to be ruling a remote keep in the boarder princes.  That's more or less center of the action of the Old World core game, so is a strong contender, even if in the canon he isn't too active at this particular moment.  cav heavy blood dragon lists ~can~ be built from the current book, but they're not the best fit for the grand army, so there's some value there.

 

As for the thought of a Named Strigoi, there are few that I could find in the Canon who aren't super-dead right now.

• Gashnag - lord of a boarder principality, a sort of parody of the beast from 'beauty and the' fame.  He's a neat enough character, but he's active in the old Warhammer Fantasy Battle time period.  As an undead creature he ~could~ already be around in Old World times, but he wasn't noted as being centuries old, at least not in his semi-public persona.
   
• The Old One - an especially old and large Varghulf who would eventually come to rule Mousillon for a time.  Sadly, it's too soon for him to be at his height, but he could be haunting the darker outskirts of Brettonia already, whether as a Varghulf or as more traditional Ghoul King who had yet to deteriorate into such a monstrous form.
   
• Rametep - this guy hangs out under Miragliano, a city in Tilea, and again he's known in the old WHFB time period but easily could be older, especially since the name implies he's on the older end of vampires.  Not much of a canon personality, but that does make him free for us to flesh out, we could have him more active in Old World times with the idea that he 'retires' to Miragliano later on.
   
• Brand new guy - The FEC range for AoS have several models which could be appropriated as old world named heroes, including
  
• crazed strigoi priest wandering between ghoul courts with the aim of unifying them, prophesying the rise of a true heir of Ushoran to refound Strigos, judging individual ghoul kings for their worthiness and in the process inspiring them to take more open action than their bloodline is normally inclined to?  Or maybe prophesying the return of Ushoran himself in a cheeky nod to Age of Sigmar, with the question of whether he's actually having visions of the post-end-times or whether he's just full of it left open?  I kind of like this idea.  Model-wise, I think this guy's the best option, as he shouldn't be too hard to fit on a base and rank into a unit and he has a distinct look that makes him feel like a specific individual dude, setting him apart from the usual naked ghoul kings without being too goofy (like the intestine-wig judge) to fit aesthetically in the Old World.
  
• The Warcry warband leader also has enough decoration to feel really unique, although the somewhat splayed feet on what I ~think~ is a 32mm base might make him difficult to fit on a 25mm square.  Anyway, he's a very cool looking guy, though maybe a touch over the top with the spike-hand and hand-knees and all.  Almost a bit piratical himself.  Anyway, the viscera chains and furred cloak give this guy an air of authority I think, if we wanted to go with Strigoi boarder prince - maybe a young Gashnag or just an earlier figure in the same vein, or maybe someone who has literally taken residence in the ruins of Mourkain in the Marshes of Madness and is trying to pass himself off as a rightful heir to Ushoran, I think this guy has the right look for it.
  
  
• Model-wise, this guy just looks super cool, though he doesn't necessarily stand out as being too distinct from just a generic ghoul king with the 'Flying Horror' power, and if I were to take a flying horror ghoul king right now, this is the model I'd reach for.  But while he's a bit generic he does look cool as heck, and we could do something lore wise with the keys I guess.  Keys to the city of of Strigos?  That's just re-hashing the idea from the last guy, but I like the idea of a lone Strigoi hero - someone who doesn't gather and rule his own ghoul court but rather visits other strigoi vampires with the purpose of uniting the bloodline and reclaiming their lost glory, maybe even appearing out of nowhere when they're in danger green knight style.

 

I'm far less married to Strigoi as the other army of infamy than I am to Vampirates.  But there are some interesting concepts we could spin into it.  Particularly with vampires hounded to the outskirts of human society, where the Strigoi already dwell, we could have Ghoul Kings taking revenge on vampires of the other bloodlines in their time of weakness, stalking and preying on once proud vampires now isolated and vulnerable without their minions and sycophants.  Sort of a 'hunted become the hunters' situation.  If that's what we want to go with, then wingaling or spike-hand guy might fit better as the special character given the more passive feel of the priest.

 

Again, though, I'm far from married to Strigoi for the Arcane Journal.

Misfire had mentioned a all (or primarily) ghosts as a potential army of infamy.  I do find that somewhat tempting - it's a strong theme, and as with ghouls there's a lot of AoS models to plunder there.  On the other hand, I worry that an all-ethereal army would be mechanically obnoxious given how that rule works in tOW.


Anyway, strigoi is currently my leading thought for the second AoI, again mostly due to the ghoul army being possible but a bit of a pain in the grand army, and it being a fairly easy theme to do.  But yeah, not yet married to it, still considering alternatives.

 

Edited April 8 by Sception

[JerekKruger]

All ghosts is a very cool idea, with strong support thanks to Nighthaunt in AoS. However army wide Ethereal seems like a bad idea. Some armies have almost no access to Magic Attacks outside of characters, and they're going to have a miserable time fighting ghosts; others, like Warriors of Chaos, can have Magic Attacks across the board, in which case Ethereal is completely useless points tax. So yeah, I wouldn't say it's a good idea from a game okay point of view.

[Tonhel]

Amazing posts @Sception

Just guessing, but even if Vampire counts stays legacy (what I don't believe), Vampire coast pirates could make an appereance in a campaign book like Warhammer Forge did with Tamurkhan, but instead an armylist for Chaos Dwarfs it would be an armylist for Vampire pirates.

I owned Tamurkhan, but sold it last summer. Lol, now I regret it a little bit. But I really hope that books like Tamurkhan is the way forward for TOW. Beautiful book!

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Tonhel said:

Amazing posts @Sception

Just guessing, but even if Vampire counts stays legacy (what I don't believe), Vampire coast pirates could make an appereance in a campaign book like Warhammer Forge did with Tamurkhan, but instead an armylist for Chaos Dwarfs it would be an armylist for Vampire pirates.

I owned Tamurkhan, but sold it last summer. Lol, now I regret it a little bit. But I really hope that books like Tamurkhan is the way forward for TOW. Beautiful book!

It really was, yeah.  I miss the old FW style campaign books.

If I had to guess at the future for the Old World, I would guess that it looks a lot like the present for Middle Earth / Hobbit / Lord of the Rings.  Occasionally new 'edition' updates that don't really change the rules much, faction rules mostly condensed in two big books rather than individual faction books, massive model range of almost entirely ancient releases - much of it entirely unavailable and significant portions out of stock for years at a time, with only rare occasional new releases.  Balance updates extremely rare, in contrast to the constant tinkering AoS and 40k get.  The main difference being low cost, slim, paperback, relatively frequent faction arcane journals vs. the less common but chunkier and hardcover narrative themed supplements that middle earth gets as their new book/rules releases.  If I'm right about that then it's sad in some ways, but on the bright side the 'unsupported' pdfs will remain good-as-new for a long, long time.

Regardless, they're going to need 2 to 3 years to get out arcane journals and model re-releases just for the 'supported' factions.  Heck, they haven't even fully re-released Brets or TKs yet.  So we have a long time before they can even try to expand past that, and imo there are other factions more likely to get bumped up from legacy or appear brand new before vamp counts/coast, including dark elves, daemons, kislev, and maybe even cathay.  IMO vampires will be in homebrew hands with only the pdf to guide our way for a long, long time, and if I'm wrong about that and an official release appears to derail this project, well honestly I'd be thrilled.