AoS Cities of Sigmar Battletome 2023 Discussion

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 minutes ago, Shoshuro said:

What would be top 3 competitive subfaction in your opinion ?

I find the different cities to be very close from an optimized-but-non-competitive perspective. Almost all of them have at least one specific, good list they enable.

Hammerhal Aqsha: The base-line to beat. Double orders is strong and makes flexible play much easier. It just looks kinda weak because the advantage is hard to put into numbers. Maybe Aventis Firestrike will be good at some point, too. Currently, I don't see him used, though.

Tempest's Eye: Probably the weakest city, mostly because nothing in Cities particularly wants to retreat and shoot. Still casually playable if you want to skirmish with a few Gunhaulers or something.

Hallowheart: My prefered casting city. Even though you will kill your own wizards with it, it virtually guarantees that your spells will go off for the first three or so turns. Very useful if you game plan hinges on the Alchemite giving everyone mortals on hit. The Cities spell lores are both really solid, too.

Hammerhal Ghyra: Lets you play a Freeguild horde army. Our troops are pretty cheap, and Steelhelms can become very durable threats with Zenestra and the Alchemite supporting.

Living City: Ambushing is generally strong and it is nice that Sylvaneth are allowed to do it, too. If there is an area in which Cities struggles, it is probably movement shennenigans, so this city shores up that weakness. Run that double Luminark meme build and live the dream of lasering down all of the opponent's front line.

Greywater: Nobody ever complained about free command points, but in my opinion the interest in this city will fall off as people gain more experience with the book. In many lists, you don't actually need the ability to All-Out Attack three times in the shooting phase. If your shooting mostly consists of one big, buffed block of Fusiliers, the most important component to their performance is the Alchemite spell. Since the cannon and warhulk are both currently kinda sub-par, what else are you buffing?

Lethis: Turning off wards is situationally a very strong ability. But on top of that, turning a Steam Tank or Marshall on Griffon into a priest to deliver Curse to the front lines seems pretty solid. Potentially, you get a lot of priests out of this subfaction choice if you set up your list for it, and they all still get a prayer from the generic lore.

Vindicarum: Rally into combat has been a problematically strong a few times already in 3rd edition. Not sure about Flagellants: At first glance they read a bit like Zombies, but they are a lot more expensive. Overall, I don't think they have quite the same potential.

Excelsis: Even though the temptation is to think of Cavaliers purely as charging units, they can actually grind reasonably well with their 3+ save. And save stacking/wards for humans are easy to come by. So mortals at the end of combat might be more impactful than they look if you gear your list for it. I would not consider Excelsis outside of cav spam, but I think that list is potentially strong.

Settler's Gain: +1 to cast is nice, but on its own I don't know if it is nice enough to pick over Hallowheart in cities that really want to power out specific spells. Maybe for Tenebrael Blade, because the Sorceress can already get +2 to cast without problems. You can run Ellania and Ellathor in this city and get a bunch of free command points.

Misthavn: Mobility is the most important stat in the game. This one makes the first turn charge with cavaliers pretty reliable, allowing you to potentially pin in the opponent with them. For Steam Tank enjoyers, the Tank Commander is also mounted and thus gets that 2d6 movement bonus, as well. Delivering a self-buffing 2+ save guy to the front lines turn 1 seems pretty decent. Plus, you get to move into combat without charging, another historically often problematically strong ability.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

43 minutes ago, Myrdin said:

The removal of pistollers is just odd. They would fit this new book well, they playstyle, looks, lore. Hell the commands, orders and even some of the cities, mianly Tempest Eye here would fit them perfectly. TE is pretty meh outside of some very janky plays.

Sounds like a fun experiment for a casual game, running the old Pistolier/Outrider warscroll in the new book.

Personally, I think those guys or equivalents might come back in a later wave. Same with Greatswords. The lack of a human melee elite unit is pretty glaring (although we can fill that gap with Stormcast or Dispossessed, of course).

[Shoshuro]

 

14 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Since the cannon and warhulk are both currently kinda sub-par, what else are you buffing?

 My plan was to All out attack on fusilier, then on tank commander that gives a third free all out attack to an other tank with Division Commander ability.
With More pressure ! tank shooting profile is decent right ? and can make profit of greywater city ?

 

15 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

If your shooting mostly consists of one big, buffed block of Fusiliers, the most important component to their performance is the Alchemite spell.

That's why i hesitate a lot between those two city. Passing more often alchemist spell + Pha's protection on tank + Miasma / Pall of doom / Wildform seems strong.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

Just now, Shoshuro said:

My plan was to All out attack on fusilier, then on tank commander that gives a third free all out attack to an other tank with Division Commander ability.
With More pressure ! tank shooting profile is decent right ? and can make profit of greywater city ?

A unit of Fusiliers and a few Steam Tanks are a good use for Greywater. I think it's a very justifiable route to go. But I find it important to keep in mind that there are other ways to get +1 to hit. Most obviously, the Hurricanum is an extra wizard hero that gives out a +1 attack aura (and not just in the shooting phase) and also dumps out mortal wounds in both hero phases (FAQ pending) which are not affected by "Look Out, Sir!". The Stormcast Lord-Ordinator is another option. 110 points for a +1 to hit aura for all ORDER WARMACHINES. And in my opinion that needs to be weighed against other city abilites that are not as easily repicated, like cast bonuses or the Misthavn movement buff.

[Lord Krungharr]

My beef with the Rally in Combat is that it still requires a CP, which are often in scarce supply.  And the horde unit to which it's being used on has to remain on the table until the next hero phase to do it don't they?  Which might often require another CP for battleshock purposes.  Flagellants seem really....bad.  And the models are hard to find, and not readily kitbashable either, especially if you want them to be all mutated for a Cthulhu Cult.

I'd rather just make the enemy suffer along with me....by taking MW for rolling 1s vs Corsairs.  

Living City could be the next City I try, with the multiple outflanking Luminarks.  Not sure it'll work as I expect but could be fun.

[Myrdin]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

My beef with the Rally in Combat is that it still requires a CP, which are often in scarce supply.  And the horde unit to which it's being used on has to remain on the table until the next hero phase to do it don't they?  Which might often require another CP for battleshock purposes.  Flagellants seem really....bad.  And the models are hard to find, and not readily kitbashable either, especially if you want them to be all mutated for a Cthulhu Cult.

I'd rather just make the enemy suffer along with me....by taking MW for rolling 1s vs Corsairs.  

Living City could be the next City I try, with the multiple outflanking Luminarks.  Not sure it'll work as I expect but could be fun.

So about the wording on the corsairs ability: Is it 1mv for each 1 rolled ?

That sounds the way it was intended, but the way its worded maked is feel like "no matter how many 1, if 1-999, after all attacks have been resolved the enemy suffers a one, singular MW). Would be silly and absolutely inconsequential, but wouldnt be the first time a rule wording was botched.

[The Lost Sigmarite]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

My beef with the Rally in Combat is that it still requires a CP, which are often in scarce supply. 

You're probably wanting to use Heroic Leadership every single turn, so I'm not really worried about the scarcity of CPs. I remember the last book you could roll in CPs if you chose the right city, now they feel more precious but you can do bonkers things with them, so I prefer it that way. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, The Lost Sigmarite said:

You're probably wanting to use Heroic Leadership every single turn, so I'm not really worried about the scarcity of CPs. I remember the last book you could roll in CPs if you chose the right city, now they feel more precious but you can do bonkers things with them, so I prefer it that way. 

Marshal with Relic friend can also give you a free use a turn.

[Lord Krungharr]

4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

So about the wording on the corsairs ability: Is it 1mv for each 1 rolled ?

That sounds the way it was intended, but the way its worded maked is feel like "no matter how many 1, if 1-999, after all attacks have been resolved the enemy suffers a one, singular MW). Would be silly and absolutely inconsequential, but wouldnt be the first time a rule wording was botched.

No it's definitely the good way...if an attack against them is an un-modified 1, that's a MW in return.  So if say, a bunch of Splintered Fang charges them and rolls like 15 6s, they probably will also roll 16 1s, and EVERYONE will die!

[Morathi is my Goddess]

It only just occurred to me that you can do heroic actions even if not on the board. So as a nice combo in Living City you can finest hour the cavalier marshal in reserve and get a +3 charge on your cavaliers off the board edge.

Always liked Living City and have a good mix of Sylvaneth but sadly can't see anything worth allying in.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

It only just occurred to me that you can do heroic actions even if not on the board. So as a nice combo in Living City you can finest hour the cavalier marshal in reserve and get a +3 charge on your cavaliers off the board edge.

Is that possible? I thought they had an FAQ about that which went the other way on it. Or was that about command abilities?

2 minutes ago, Morathi is my Goddess said:

Always liked Living City and have a good mix of Sylvaneth but sadly can't see anything worth allying in.

I have seen people talk about Tree Revenants for the movement shennenigans. They even count for Banners Held High. They don't benefit a lot from the Living City allegiance, though.

[Morathi is my Goddess]

Ah you're right there is a FAQ on that. Shame, guess it's back to Hallowheart and Misthavn for me. 😆

[Lord Krungharr]

I have a Kharybdis, and am building a Hydra...using the spare necks and tails to make an Eldritch Horror Krondspine proxy on the old Balewind Vortex.  I have a 3rd Hydra kit....but should I make that into a Black Dragon Dreadlord?  (I have spare wings from a Daemon Prince) Or should I just stick with the 2nd Hydra?  While the Awesome Duellist trait seems hilarious on the Dragon, a 2nd Hydra seems more worth taking.  But I could be missing something.

[Myrdin]

48 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I have a Kharybdis, and am building a Hydra...using the spare necks and tails to make an Eldritch Horror Krondspine proxy on the old Balewind Vortex.  I have a 3rd Hydra kit....but should I make that into a Black Dragon Dreadlord?  (I have spare wings from a Daemon Prince) Or should I just stick with the 2nd Hydra?  While the Awesome Duellist trait seems hilarious on the Dragon, a 2nd Hydra seems more worth taking.  But I could be missing something.

Considering the theme you are going for I think a Kharybdis mount for your Dread lord, with added wings and maybe a single big head of....something (Mutalith vortex beast, or maybe one of the new Tyranids) in the middle with smaller kharybdis claw heads on the sides might wrok quite well. 

[Clan's Cynic]

I posted in the Mortals Redesign thread already, but some people might find this a decent video for a relatively simple grimdarky CoS scheme.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

1 hour ago, Myrdin said:

Considering the theme you are going for I think a Kharybdis mount for your Dread lord, with added wings and maybe a single big head of....something (Mutalith vortex beast, or maybe one of the new Tyranids) in the middle with smaller kharybdis claw heads on the sides might wrok quite well. 

Yeah, you're right.  I'll need the tiny Kharybdis mouths for my Drakespawn Knights though....but maybe those 2 chest hole mouths will work to complete the 10 Knights.  Then I can do the twin weirdo heads for the dragon....though I kinda need the necks for my Cosmic Krond-spawn tentacles.  I have that 'Dark Young' from Reaper Bones but those are sort of heavy and rubbery; not sure if they'll glue nicely to plastic.  Make a good statue for terrain at least. 

Mutaliths are expensive now!  What's up with that?  I really like the bits on that kit though.   

[Lord Krungharr]

Got 3 extra Kharybdiss necks/mouths and the Glottkin giant tentacle from a bits seller.  That's plenty now!

[Gorthor21]

Chaos spawn kits have a ton of extra tentacles and odd stuff like eyes and mouths you could try to use on the knights.

[Lord Krungharr]

That's a great kit, SOOOO many added bits in there.  Trying to think what units could be Shoggoths?  Probably something allied.

[Satyrical Sophist]

Looking at some numbers for different units. Been mainly looking at hammers at the moment. My thoughts are a mess today, so this isn't going to be very organised.  This is all math hammer, and spreadsheets. I know it doesn't translate over but spreadsheets help me work out what a reasonable expectation might be, for example 10 Cavaliers with Engage the Foe have a fairly good chance of killing a mega gargant in one activation, but nowhere near certain (On average you'd expect to do about 34 wounds to one). So you probably do want to soften it up first, or charge the mounted marshal with them. 

One thing to note is that counter charge seems very very good. I don't think I was thinking of how much difference the rend makes, but having access to a plus to rend is a big deal.

.Another thing is that Cavaliers honestly slap. I've kind of underestimated what they can do with some pretty easily obtainable buffs. A unit of 5 will do serious damage to a most targets. One thing I hadn't quite factored in was how well Flaming weapons works for them, since a unit of 5 has 26 attacks, that works out as an expected 4.3 mortal wounds in addition, jumping up to a full 6 for a unit with Engage the Foe.

Another key stand out is just what Corsairs will do to either low armour units or with Tenebrael Blades. A Fleetmaster boosted AoA unit of 10 expects to force through 14 wounds vs no saves. T Blades also lasts until your next hero phase, and I can't see anything stopping you from keeping a counter charge order ready for them if you get top of the turn and holding them ready for the enemy to risk getting counter charged by them. For a unit that you can use as a screen that seems kind of nuts. I've seen some people using big units of them, but I'm not sure its the best choice, I think mainly 10s with the odd 20. 

Looking at Executioners and Hammerers. Executioners do better damage to saves of 1+ and better. 2+ is equal. I was really surprised. That's also not points adjusted, points adjusted Executioners only out perform them on something with a 0+ save. 

I was quite down on the Dreadlord on Dragon, but he's kind of grown on me. He's not an efficient source of damage, but he will put out damage (Him buffed with AoA, command trait and counter charge is about equivalent to a counter charging unit of 5 Cavaliers) and he can lurk behind your screen with a counter charge order.

 

This has been a mess I freely admit, but I was wondering what are the numbers that people would be interested in?  

Like, can it kill a megagargant (35 wounds, 4+ save), can it clear 20/40 zombies? Which are useful armour saves people would like to test against? I've set up everything, but it ends up being a bit brain bending to parse. Same for defensive profiles, what do people think is the gold standard for "Oh god, blank has just hit my line and its going to hurt".

 

[Lord Krungharr]

Why does everyone want to kill a megagargant in one turn?  What did they ever do to you?!  Leave our poor innocent giants alone!

But I would say a unit of 10 Drakespawn Knights w Tenebrael Blades and AOA on the charge (which theoretically could happen turn 1), possibly after a Steam Tank Commander with the Curse Prayer as cursed something, would be about the scariest thing.  Especially if you have 2-3 Drake Chariots hitting them simultaneously.  

The Dragon Lord, while not amazing on his own, has also grown on me, and I'm making one out of my last Kharybdiss kit now...just gotta decide if I want to splurge on wings, or just modify some D. Prince ones I have (the older plastic kit ones).    I probably will be frugal now as I've spent WAAAAAY too much on Cities already.  I think if one is using Drake Knights/Chariots he's a good investment.  

I kinda want 2 more Hydras, and to use them with my Steam Tanks.  Commander/3 tanks/3 Hydras, plus whatevs, that's plenty of anti-horde action.  It would be funny to have 3 Sorceresses behind them make all the Hydras strike first after 3 other heroes (the Commander and 2 Warforgers) make them Counter Charge something.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Why does everyone want to kill a megagargant in one turn?  What did they ever do to you?!  Leave our poor innocent giants alone!

But I would say a unit of 10 Drakespawn Knights w Tenebrael Blades and AOA on the charge (which theoretically could happen turn 1), possibly after a Steam Tank Commander with the Curse Prayer as cursed something, would be about the scariest thing.  Especially if you have 2-3 Drake Chariots hitting them simultaneously.  

Ten Drakespawn with AoA and Ten Blades do an expected 25.83 wounds. (EDIT Had a number wrong it's 30)

 

I'd be tempted to run 5 and 2 drakespawn chariots. That gets 13.33 (EDIT 15.4) from the buffed knights, and between 11.1 (to 2+ save) and 14.66 (to a 6+). Mainly because that way you can score a battle tactic from 3 aelf charges. It is 40 more points though.

 

Unfortunately Khari and Hydra damage doesn't work out amazingly. The Khari are slightly better than non charging drake chariots and slightly worse than non charging drakespawn knights. Hydra comes out slightly behind. I think the Khari wins for me with the ability. I'm not factoring in monstrous abilities, so that might be worth including.  

EDIT: to correct error.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Satyrical Sophist
Wrong number

[Lord Krungharr]

I'm coming up with an average of 30 damage from a unit of 10 Knights with AOA on the charge and T.Blades on them.  By contrast just 20 damage from 20 Corsairs w AOA, though if they strike first, their swashbuckling could hit back a bit more of course.

Chariots are probably a good idea if running the Drake Knights but they're just not in the points for everything else I want to run.  

The Kharibdyss is a good anti-Battleshock/Rally bubble mainly, plus a Monstrous Action if needed.  The Hydras I think are good chaff cleanser, and generally annoying with their 5 wound healing every turn (if they live that long), plus Monster action where needed.  I agree, neither are that great but MONSTERS! 

Really wish the Dreadlord didn't lose his old Command Ability though; but at least his reroll charges is always on.  I think Lance and Shield is the way to go with him, not that I roll enough 6s.  I could see either the Venomfang Blade or Amulet of Destiny on him.  Mainly there to get into duels.

[Satyrical Sophist]

6 minutes ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I'm coming up with an average of 30 damage from a unit of 10 Knights with AOA on the charge and T.Blades on them.  By contrast just 20 damage from 20 Corsairs w AOA, though if they strike first, their swashbuckling could hit back a bit more of course.

You are absolute right on the knights, my bad. I was missing that the drakespawn actually have 3 attacks each. I think I just turned it into the normal 2 attack horse. The knights with AoA and charge plus blades do 30 wounds.

I get exactly 27 from 20 corsairs though. I think you might be missing the regular +1 to hit from AoA from the fleet master? That's 20.25 expected wounds, if they were 4+/4+. With AoA it's 3+/4+, getting 27.

 

[Lord Krungharr]

D'oh!  You're right, forgot about the +1 to hit on the Corsairs