Soulblight Gravelords Discussion - 3rd edition.

[Leshoyadut]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:24 AM, TechnoVampire said:

I don’t do number crunching, but the Trueblades (particularly in Kastelai) look like they could be a pretty choice recipient for the new GHB spell?

That's a really good suggestion! I'm actually pretty interested in Trueblades and think they're actually close to being good. They either need just a bit more damage to take advantage of their strike-last effect themselves, or a points reduction to push them to being better support for other units.

Just on the offchance, I did actually check the slavering maws and the champion's weapon, but they're, as expected, never worth buffing over the other 6 models. That said, like everything but the Blood Knights, the stat you buff is slightly situation. Against 2+ and 3+ saves, -2 rend is better than 2+ to wound. Against 4+, -3 rend is better than 2+ to wound, but that doesn't matter because you're not going to give them a 3 to wound or a 1 to rend, and a 2 is the same in either stat against a 4+, so it only matters what you roll. 2+ to wound is better for 5+ and 6+ saves.

Still not doing a whole lot of damage, and I think there are a number of better options to buff with the spell, sadly. I do quite like them and think they could have a place in the army, but feel they still fall a little short of being worth 40 more points than Grave Guard. They seem so close to being good and worth bringing, though. Strike-last is great, but just unreliable enough and they struggle a little bit to contribute outside of that for how expensive they are, imo.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

31 minutes ago, Leshoyadut said:

That's a really good suggestion! I'm actually pretty interested in Trueblades and think they're actually close to being good. They either need just a bit more damage to take advantage of their strike-last effect themselves, or a points reduction to push them to being better support for other units.

Just on the offchance, I did actually check the slavering maws and the champion's weapon, but they're, as expected, never worth buffing over the other 6 models. That said, like everything but the Blood Knights, the stat you buff is slightly situation. Against 2+ and 3+ saves, -2 rend is better than 2+ to wound. Against 4+, -3 rend is better than 2+ to wound, but that doesn't matter because you're not going to give them a 3 to wound or a 1 to rend, and a 2 is the same in either stat against a 4+, so it only matters what you roll. 2+ to wound is better for 5+ and 6+ saves.

Still not doing a whole lot of damage, and I think there are a number of better options to buff with the spell, sadly. I do quite like them and think they could have a place in the army, but feel they still fall a little short of being worth 40 more points than Grave Guard. They seem so close to being good and worth bringing, though. Strike-last is great, but just unreliable enough and they struggle a little bit to contribute outside of that for how expensive they are, imo.

The big problem with Trueblades in my opinion is that Grave Guard are just more efficient. Trueblades get a 6" move, Grave Guard get deep strike. Trueblades get strike last, Grave Guard get to delete units. Trueblades get the Hunger, Grave Guard get SUMMONABLE. And on top of all that, Grave Guard are cheaper, too.

All Trueblades really have is the VAMPIRE keyword and their monster hunting gimmick. I think that makes them fun in Kastellai, but not generally worth bringing.

[Leshoyadut]

12 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The big problem with Trueblades in my opinion is that Grave Guard are just more efficient. Trueblades get a 6" move, Grave Guard get deep strike. Trueblades get strike last, Grave Guard get to delete units. Trueblades get the Hunger, Grave Guard get SUMMONABLE. And on top of all that, Grave Guard are cheaper, too.

All Trueblades really have is the VAMPIRE keyword and their monster hunting gimmick. I think that makes them fun in Kastellai, but not generally worth bringing.

I think if they were cheaper, they could be used as a support piece for something else due to the strike-last. They wouldn't be the hammer, but they would allow you to attack with, say, your GG in one area and still keep your VLOZD safe for a later activation or something. But yeah, while they're cool, they definitely lack some oomph.

Also, realized I forgot to check them with Kastelai buffs. The first is +1 attacks, the second is +1 damage.

With +1 damage, they're actually hitting pretty hard. Considering that's only hero or monster, that's not too hard to get, but still unlikely to have it immediately. And also still not really worth 40 more points than GG, for the reasons you mentioned.

[Leshoyadut]

I will say that while I generally like the points changes for us, the part of me that wants to run 60 skeletons is sad at that 15 point increase on them.

All of the drops seem good, though I'm not sure how much they'll truly end up helping those things. Manny going down in points helps him, I think he was borderline as it was, and this could make him a real pick again. Coven Throne and Palanquin dropping a fair bit is nice, too, though they're probably not good enough still; they just don't do much. Similar problem with the Zombie Dragon and Terrorgheist: love to see the points drop, would really prefer it if they just did more instead.

As for the increases, the large majority seem fine to me. Sad to see them, of course, but given the winrate of the army (even after nerfs), it was pretty expected. The only one that truly confuses me is Black Knights going up 20 points. Like. I could see 5-10, but 20 seems like too much. But none of the changes seem unwarranted, it's mostly about reducing our massive board control and preventing us from being able to have both an enormous horde of bodies and big damage units at the same time.

Lastly, the Endless Legions and Zombies changes. Outside 9" on opponent's turn for EL is sad and I would have preferred it going to 6" instead to start, but I can understand why they decided on 9. Zombies needing to be within 3" of the attacking model makes sense and seems like a decent nerf to them without making them useless. Obviously time will tell how hard these hurt, but I think they'll be fine.

Overall, I don't think these changes break the army by any means. Gut reaction is pain, but we definitely needed some nerfs given our performance, and I think they did a good job of aiming the nerfs mostly where they needed to go while still buffing a lot of things that needed that, too (though points changes aren't enough for a lot of them).

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

3 hours ago, Leshoyadut said:

I will say that while I generally like the points changes for us, the part of me that wants to run 60 skeletons is sad at that 15 point increase on them.

All of the drops seem good, though I'm not sure how much they'll truly end up helping those things. Manny going down in points helps him, I think he was borderline as it was, and this could make him a real pick again. Coven Throne and Palanquin dropping a fair bit is nice, too, though they're probably not good enough still; they just don't do much. Similar problem with the Zombie Dragon and Terrorgheist: love to see the points drop, would really prefer it if they just did more instead.

As for the increases, the large majority seem fine to me. Sad to see them, of course, but given the winrate of the army (even after nerfs), it was pretty expected. The only one that truly confuses me is Black Knights going up 20 points. Like. I could see 5-10, but 20 seems like too much. But none of the changes seem unwarranted, it's mostly about reducing our massive board control and preventing us from being able to have both an enormous horde of bodies and big damage units at the same time.

Lastly, the Endless Legions and Zombies changes. Outside 9" on opponent's turn for EL is sad and I would have preferred it going to 6" instead to start, but I can understand why they decided on 9. Zombies needing to be within 3" of the attacking model makes sense and seems like a decent nerf to them without making them useless. Obviously time will tell how hard these hurt, but I think they'll be fine.

Overall, I don't think these changes break the army by any means. Gut reaction is pain, but we definitely needed some nerfs given our performance, and I think they did a good job of aiming the nerfs mostly where they needed to go while still buffing a lot of things that needed that, too (though points changes aren't enough for a lot of them).

At a glance point changes will probably result in about 1 unit less per list. That's not a huge deal for Soulblight, who have no shortage of cheap chaff for board control. The rules nerfs are the more impactful changes in my opinion, but they are overall good. Especially the change to Zombies, which were a bit absurd before.

Online I see a lot of people complaining that half unit resurrection is too powerful because it gives you 50% extra value in terms of models. Personally, I want to push back on that a little bit. There is a big difference between having 30 models at the start of the game and having 20 models at the start and possibly 10 more on a dice roll several turns into the game. That's not to say that Soulblight resurrection is not good, but I think people calling for Zombies at 200 points or whatever are oversimplifying things. Glad to see that the designers are using a more gentle touch in this regard.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Neil Arthur Hotep

[Honk]

13 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

The rules nerfs are the more impactful changes in my opinion,

This…

of course it is the SBGL cheese, but after the faq there are other glaring fudge fests like the blizzard lizzards that are way more oppressive and unfun.

Best thing is the nagash drop, still 50 too much , but now at least somewhat possible

[Leshoyadut]

The points changes got me feeling some kinda way...

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Subfaction: Avengorii
- Grand Strategy: Lust for Domination
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Vampire Lord (140)*
- Lore of Primal Frost: Hoarfrost
- Aspect of the Champion: Tunnel Master
Vengorian Lord (270)*
- General
- Command Trait: Monstrous Might
- Artefact: Ghorvar's Collar
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Vengorian Lord (270)**
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

Battleline
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)**
Zombie Dragon (260)*
Zombie Dragon (260)**
Zombie Dragon (260)*
Zombie Dragon (260)**

Endless Spells & Invocations
Prismatic Palisade (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Battle Regiment

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
Drops: 2

Now, this is almost certainly not good, but my heart wants it to be a thing. I think it's actually not overly fragile, since both Vengos are each full-healing a Zombie Dragon every turn (if the dragons managed to destroy something; I'll get to that below), and also giving a dragon The Hunger with the spell. The total wound count isn't bad, either. Prismatic Palisade seemed like an okay option to help deal with shooting, though it may be better to change the zombies to wolves to just get on them faster. The Vengos also worsen rend by 1 and the general's CT gives -1 to wound against your monsters.
 

On the offense side, Hoarfrost actually goes on the zombies, shockingly (not that shockingly), since it'll add more damage for them than it does for a dragon. Which does bring me to the damage of the dragons:

 

 

It's, uh. Not great. It's definitely not unbuffed zombies bad, but even they actually start keeping pace (and surpass the unbuffed dragons) against higher saves with a Hoarfrost on their to hit. The dragon damage also includes their breaths, so their melee damage alone is even sadder. Terrorgheists technically do more damage than Zombie Dragons, but it's so spiky and unreliable that I still prefer the dragons.

 

All that said, while I think it's not particularly competitive and it certainly lacks damage, it actually seems like it could be fun in a more casual game. Points changes didn't make it good, but they did make it playable, I think. You can certainly bring a whole lot of monsters as Avengorii now.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[JackStreicher]

On 7/7/2023 at 8:08 AM, Leshoyadut said:

I will say that while I generally like the points changes for us, the part of me that wants to run 60 skeletons is sad at that 15 point increase on them.

All of the drops seem good, though I'm not sure how much they'll truly end up helping those things. Manny going down in points helps him, I think he was borderline as it was, and this could make him a real pick again. Coven Throne and Palanquin dropping a fair bit is nice, too, though they're probably not good enough still; they just don't do much. Similar problem with the Zombie Dragon and Terrorgheist: love to see the points drop, would really prefer it if they just did more instead.

As for the increases, the large majority seem fine to me. Sad to see them, of course, but given the winrate of the army (even after nerfs), it was pretty expected. The only one that truly confuses me is Black Knights going up 20 points. Like. I could see 5-10, but 20 seems like too much. But none of the changes seem unwarranted, it's mostly about reducing our massive board control and preventing us from being able to have both an enormous horde of bodies and big damage units at the same time.

Lastly, the Endless Legions and Zombies changes. Outside 9" on opponent's turn for EL is sad and I would have preferred it going to 6" instead to start, but I can understand why they decided on 9. Zombies needing to be within 3" of the attacking model makes sense and seems like a decent nerf to them without making them useless. Obviously time will tell how hard these hurt, but I think they'll be fine.

Overall, I don't think these changes break the army by any means. Gut reaction is pain, but we definitely needed some nerfs given our performance, and I think they did a good job of aiming the nerfs mostly where they needed to go while still buffing a lot of things that needed that, too (though points changes aren't enough for a lot of them).

Agreed the army is fine still.
I am sad about our never picked units - they didn't need a points drop, they need a rewrite. The new BT has been released for long enough to warrant some changes. As you've mentioned, the Palanquins and Thrones of the BT don't do much. The same goes for our Monsters and most Cursed City units.
They could have added one Keyword (Summonable to Kosargi and or the Monsters, so they could be healed at least) 
Nagash imo has to be rewritten completely. They really need to thin hard about what he is supposed to do - make his Warscrolls 4 Pages if need be, as long as he has about the same use in every Death Faction,

OR,
FINALLY
realize that it's better to write "Aspects" of Nagash, meaning parts of his mind manifesting while the rest of it is busy elsewhere. 
So they could write an >Nagash: Aspect of Power< Warscroll for SBGL, >Nagash: Aspect of Justice< for Nighthaunt, >Nagash: Aspect of Will<, and maybe >Nagash: Aspect of Deceit< for FeC.
Then one more which is >Nagash, Grand Lord of Undeath< himself which goes super nuts with Magics, healing Undead and Causing Terror and mayham etc. which costs 1800+ Points - Only to be used for crazy Narrative Games

 

Edit: The names are just suggestions ofc. There are several fits for several armies:
SBGL: Greed, Power, Hunger, Undeath
Ossiarchs: Strategie, Will, Patience, War
Nighthaunt: Grief, Justice, Torment, Punishment
FeC: Madness, Deceit, Betrayal, Delusion

Edited July 10, 2023 by JackStreicher

[Leshoyadut]

10 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Agreed the army is fine still.
I am sad about our never picked units - they didn't need a points drop, they need a rewrite. The new BT has been released for long enough to warrant some changes. As you've mentioned, the Palanquins and Thrones of the BT don't do much. The same goes for our Monsters and most Cursed City units.
They could have added one Keyword (Summonable to Kosargi and or the Monsters, so they could be healed at least) 
Nagash imo has to be rewritten completely. They really need to thin hard about what he is supposed to do - make his Warscrolls 4 Pages if need be, as long as he has about the same use in every Death Faction,

OR,
FINALLY
realize that it's better to write "Aspects" of Nagash, meaning parts of his mind manifesting while the rest of it is busy elsewhere. 
So they could write an >Nagash: Aspect of Power< Warscroll for SBGL, >Nagash: Aspect of Justice< for Nighthaunt, >Nagash: Aspect of Will<, and maybe >Nagash: Aspect of Deceit< for FeC.
Then one more which is >Nagash, Grand Lord of Undeath< himself which goes super nuts with Magics, healing Undead and Causing Terror and mayham etc. which costs 1800+ Points - Only to be used for crazy Narrative Games

I think doing aspects of Nagash is especially fitting for him, given that’s how he’so often portrayed in the fiction. I like that idea a lot! In particular, it reminds me of a Death book I read recently where Arkhan is talking to Neferata and explains how each of the mortarchs mirrors a piece of Nagash himself. 
 

Also, a quick special shoutout to the Palanquin and Throne: I really just want them to be good. Both of them. They look so great and are the epitome of the decadent vampire archetype I love. Please, Mr. Workshop, help me out. Make me want to buy them for the game. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[Sception]

ever since they introduced the krondspire, i figured the incarnate rules could be an effective way to fluffily implement 'avatars' of nagash ritually summoned by his worshippers.

The big guy himself would remain narratively untouchable within the nadir, slowly going mad while absorbing the Nadir's near limitless arcane power, with the long term story idea being that eventually the Nadir would absorb all of Shyish, and then some time after that Nagash would absorb all of the Nadir, at which point the Nadir would vanish and reveal an insane but unstoppable Nagash to usher in the end of reality.  But the time scale involved would be akin to the evaporation of super-massive black holes, so there may be nothing left by then anyway - though of course his mortarchs would be working to accelerate that end, whether consciously or otherwise.

In this way Nagash would be treated like a force of nature rather than a character, while the real movers & shakers driving the narrative of the Death factions would be the more idiosyncratic and unpredictable mortarchs.

[Leshoyadut]

A more serious list I think I'm liking right now.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Subfaction: Legion of Blood
- Grand Strategy: Lust for Domination
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (400)**
- Lore of the Deathmages: Waste Away
Vampire Lord (140)**
- Lore of Primal Magic: Hoarfrost
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (460)*
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Doomed Minions
- Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (160)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

Battleline
10 x Black Knights (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)*

Units
20 x Grave Guard (300)*
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Prismatic Palisade (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
Drops: 4

It has three main threats: the GG, the VLOZD, and the Black Knights + Wight King charging. The zombies act as solid, painful screens that the GG can also hit over the top of with their 2" reach. Neferata and the Vampire Lord on foot are great buff pieces, and Neferata is a bit of a threat, herself (though not as much as the VLOZD).

The Prismatic Palisade was added because I saw two main options for the screens: 1) two zombies + palisade, 2) two dire wolves. I kinda liked the idea of the palisade more than the speed of the wolves, so that's what I went with here. While I'm open to tweaking the whole army as I get experience with it, I think this is the part that I'm most open to futzing with. Dire Wolves are great at controlling the board with their speed in a way that zombies just can't, but I really like the anti-hammer nature of zombies and the palisade actually seems like a decent anti-shooting spell now. Both seem like good options, and I think it probably comes down to what's more appropriate for the meta you're going into, or how palisade actually turns out in practice. Part of this is probably just me really wanting to try palisade, haha.

I think it's also worth mentioning the new Look Out, Sir! rule preventing shooting from more than 12" away and how that can help the Vampire Lord a lot. Keep it next to the GG or some zombies, and it's significantly safer than it was. Not safe, but much safer, and the palisade can cover a lot of the range that it's in danger in.

Otherwise, I think everything is just kinda good stuff in the army. Black Knights + WKoS do some surprising mortal wounds and move pretty fast, the zombies are great screens and work nicely against hammers even with their new 3" restriction, GG are great hammers themselves, VLOZD is good, Neferata's good, VL on foot is good. Decent grind, decent damage, decent board coverage. I'll see how it goes.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

With the points changes hitting my Legion of Blood list so hard, I had to drop a bunch of stuff--about 15-160 points or so (I forget at this point), which meant I was probably hitting some Grave Guard. I have a block of 20 Shields and a block of 10 Great Weapons, and both were in my old list. While I am normally a big advocate for Shield Grave Guard as an overlooked option, I think Hoarfrost this season makes Great Weapons just definitively the best choice, even for a shield lover.  So losing the Shields seemed like the way to go, but dropping the reinforced unit put me down far enough that I needed a replacement. I wasn't sure what fit in that slot well--I didn't want a third unit of Black Knights, and I couldn't quite fit in the mounted Wight King alongside the two I already had. Nothing else in that price range seemed like a great option either. So I thought about maybe cutting down the second unit of Black Knights as well to open up more room to play with and fit in another bigger piece. At that point, I had 280 points to play with exactly....

Long story short (too late!), I recently got and started painting up a Vengorian Lord after testing it out via proxy. And man, I'd been sleeping on this guy. Sure, 10 Wounds is the worst number of Wounds to have, and he's built for synergies with the unridden monsters that don't do enough to make them good, but he is just a legitimate backup beater in his own right. When I first fielded him, I was sure at first that I'd read the Gore-Drenched Talons profile wrong. +1 to hit and wound over the VLoZD's bite in exchange for 1 less Rend? I mean, losing the Rend hurts, but that 4+ to hit hurts a lot too! And the Vengorian aura ability synergyizes nicely with the general LoB plan of laughing at enemies pretending they have a Rend stat on their warscrolls.

Really happy with the change, even if it is probably an overall loss in effectiveness versus my old list with a ton more Summonable stuff. That change needed to happen, after all. I'm just glad it paved the way for this discovery.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:46 AM, Leshoyadut said:

A more serious list I think I'm liking right now.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Soulblight Gravelords
- Subfaction: Legion of Blood
- Grand Strategy: Lust for Domination
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Neferata, Mortarch of Blood (400)**
- Lore of the Deathmages: Waste Away
Vampire Lord (140)**
- Lore of Primal Magic: Hoarfrost
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (460)*
- General
- Deathlance
- Command Trait: Doomed Minions
- Artefact: Cloak of Mists and Shadows
- Lore of the Vampires: Spirit Gale
Wight King on Skeletal Steed (160)
- Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact)

Battleline
10 x Black Knights (260)*
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)*
20 x Deadwalker Zombies (120)*

Units
20 x Grave Guard (300)*
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Prismatic Palisade (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Artefact

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
Drops: 4

It has three main threats: the GG, the VLOZD, and the Black Knights + Wight King charging. The zombies act as solid, painful screens that the GG can also hit over the top of with their 2" reach. Neferata and the Vampire Lord on foot are great buff pieces, and Neferata is a bit of a threat, herself (though not as much as the VLOZD).

The Prismatic Palisade was added because I saw two main options for the screens: 1) two zombies + palisade, 2) two dire wolves. I kinda liked the idea of the palisade more than the speed of the wolves, so that's what I went with here. While I'm open to tweaking the whole army as I get experience with it, I think this is the part that I'm most open to futzing with. Dire Wolves are great at controlling the board with their speed in a way that zombies just can't, but I really like the anti-hammer nature of zombies and the palisade actually seems like a decent anti-shooting spell now. Both seem like good options, and I think it probably comes down to what's more appropriate for the meta you're going into, or how palisade actually turns out in practice. Part of this is probably just me really wanting to try palisade, haha.

I think it's also worth mentioning the new Look Out, Sir! rule preventing shooting from more than 12" away and how that can help the Vampire Lord a lot. Keep it next to the GG or some zombies, and it's significantly safer than it was. Not safe, but much safer, and the palisade can cover a lot of the range that it's in danger in.

Otherwise, I think everything is just kinda good stuff in the army. Black Knights + WKoS do some surprising mortal wounds and move pretty fast, the zombies are great screens and work nicely against hammers even with their new 3" restriction, GG are great hammers themselves, VLOZD is good, Neferata's good, VL on foot is good. Decent grind, decent damage, decent board coverage. I'll see how it goes.

Just scrolled back up after making my excited post about the Vengorian Lord and actually took a look at the list. I think there's some interesting concepts there, but I have some concerns.

First off, as I mentioned in my other post--I love shield Grave Guard, but I suspect this is not their season. They don't benefit from Neferata's spell well now that the FAQ killed stacking AOD/Mystic Shield with Dark Mist, and enemy Hoarfrost is an existential threat to them. Meanwhile, the Great Weapons benefit more from 1s and 2s on friendly Hoarfrost more than shields do because it can help them bypass the biggest weakness on their profile.

I also don't think Palisade is good, as much as I would like it to be. It's easy to dispel before it becomes relevant even in a season without Primal Casting. With that, it's basically dead in the water. And without Palisade, I don't think the Arcane Tome is worth it--maybe try the Amulet of Screams to shut down enemy casting? That's something I'd be putting in if I wasn't running Andtorian Acolytes in my current list (and still might make the change for, given how fragile the bonus from that battalion can be). I'm honestly against running most Endless Spells this season over all, which is a real shame. There are Battle Tactics to be scored by targeting the caster of one, and Primal Magic dispelling makes removing them a breeze.

Finally, I find Soulblight doesn't care as much about low drops as many armies, so Battle Regiment is basically what you toss things into after squeezing out every possible additional bonus. Especially with Neferata allowing redeploys. That means Warlord is straight up better than Command Entourage for us.

 

My suggestions: Drop the Arcane Tome, the Shield Grave Guard and the Palisade. Replace Arcane Tome with Amulet of Screams. Replace the Shields with the same number of Great Weapon Grave Guard or a double-reinforced Skeleton block (same points either way). And then the Palisade becomes points for a Triumph--maybe Inspired, since the units that care most about the charge in your army already have rerolls covered. Alternately, take 10 Great Weapon Grave Guard and a pair of Necromancers, then replace Warlord with a 3-strong Acolytes battalion and drop the Amulet of Screams as well.

[Leshoyadut]

1 hour ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

My suggestions: Drop the Arcane Tome, the Shield Grave Guard and the Palisade. Replace Arcane Tome with Amulet of Screams. Replace the Shields with the same number of Great Weapon Grave Guard or a double-reinforced Skeleton block (same points either way). And then the Palisade becomes points for a Triumph--maybe Inspired, since the units that care most about the charge in your army already have rerolls covered. Alternately, take 10 Great Weapon Grave Guard and a pair of Necromancers, then replace Warlord with a 3-strong Acolytes battalion and drop the Amulet of Screams as well.

A quick note before anything else: those shields are supposed to be greatweapons, I just forgot to change it in the WarCom list builder when I was making that. And boy, did they slap hard when I played against StD a couple nights ago. With Hoarfrost for 2+ to hit and the VL buff, they did 16 wounds to Be'lakor with only nine of them still alive at that point. I'm with you on loving shield GG, though, and it's something I've tried to make work a few times, especially with our previous book. One list I tried out had two units of 30 shield GG because I loved them.

Anyways. I think you make some good points about Palisade, but I still want to actually try it against something with some shooting before giving up on it entirely. The triumph would probably be better more consistently, though, and is something I had considered but didn't note in my post. This list doesn't feel like one where I will often need the auto-pass battle shock and can't spend a CP on it, though it's definitely not a bad thing to have by any means. So...yeah, Inspired is likely the correct choice, but the Palisade is something I want to test for a bit.

As for the Arcane Tome, I was actually thinking of getting rid of it after my StD game because my VL consistently had 2 spellcasts from going second in the round, which gave me four spells a round already, and because Amulet of Screams would have been great against all the spellcasting my opponent did. Given how spell-heavy this season is likely to be, it's probably going to be worth more than a Mystic Shield or Arcane Bolt might be, anyways.

The Battle Regiment I've found is actually quite useful. While I'm not very concerned about the order of the first battle round, letting me control the tempo of the game going forward a bit better is very nice. Won't let me beat one-drops or two-drops, but it does give me the chance to beat a lot of lists on drops still. Which lets me both prevent my opponent from getting a double turn and gives me the opportunity to get one if I see a good chance to, say, get some big swings in with the VLOZD/GG or a big charge off with the BKs. It's not so important that it's worth trying to fit the whole list into a single BR, like you say, but I think it's still more valuable than a single command point once per game.

Also, since I'm here, I guess some notes on my game the other night real fast: GG slap. VLOZD slaps. Neferata is incredible. Black Knights with a Wight King on steed are great; even losing all 10 of my BKs to a buffed Chaos Knight charge before the BKs even got to go, getting five back that could charge for ~5 MWs on average was solid. VL buff is incredible. Zombies were great screens: painful to kill, but fast to go away and leave space for my GG or other units. I don't think any of this was surprising, but still good to see in practice rather than just on paper.

Edited July 20, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[El Syf]

Just briefly, is anyone running Crimson court? Looking at the warscroll again and actually really tempted, instead of using them as generic vl models. The choice between +1 rend or the opponent can’t attack them seems ludicrous!

[Holy_Diver]

Noob question of our battle tactics: in a Vyrkos list with no skeletons, how do I complete the "Endless Nightmare" tactic?

[JackStreicher]

On 7/30/2023 at 10:27 AM, El Syf said:

Just briefly, is anyone running Crimson court? Looking at the warscroll again and actually really tempted, instead of using them as generic vl models. The choice between +1 rend or the opponent can’t attack them seems ludicrous!

They seem very good. I simply seldom have enough points left to fit them.

[Sutek]

4 hours ago, Holy_Diver said:

Noob question of our battle tactics: in a Vyrkos list with no skeletons, how do I complete the "Endless Nightmare" tactic?

It doesn't have to be skeletons.  You can do it with Zombies or Grave Guard.  If you have none of these then pick a different battle tactic.

[Holy_Diver]

1 hour ago, Sutek said:

It doesn't have to be skeletons.  You can do it with Zombies or Grave Guard.  If you have none of these then pick a different battle tactic.

Yeah, but the question remains: how I raise 6 models, when allegiance ability gives me maximum 3+1?

Maybe I must "trick the hero phase", doing Rally before, see how many 6's i roll, then choose the Battle Tactic?

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

IIRC, the Mortis Engine also boosts models restored.

[Leshoyadut]

I think the non-skeletons options you have are mixing some combination (2 or more) of:

1) Rally.

2) Gravesite regen.

3) Emerald Lifeswarm.

4) Mortis Engine. Technically part of gravesite regen, but I'm counting it separately here.

Or you can "just" take Nagash, the 900 point sad bone man, for a single battle tactic. Doesn't seem...particularly worth it, but if you were running him already, it does make the tactic pretty easy.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Leshoyadut

[Sutek]

You can do it with Vyrkos using the heroic action.  Just need to roll a 3+ if the unit you did invocation on is near a gravesite.

[Holy_Diver]

15 hours ago, Sutek said:

You can do it with Vyrkos using the heroic action.  Just need to roll a 3+ if the unit you did invocation on is near a gravesite.

Is it possible? Because the heroic action don't talk about "slain models", but "add models to the unit".

[Sception]

New battlescroll out, as expected some soulblight nerfs:

- no hero phase movement or teleport before blizzard spell
- big nerf to spirit gale - 1 mw to 3 enemy units, or 6 with 9+ cast result
- small points increases to many units, like half the army, larger increases for a few - particularly zombies

Actually less of a nerf than I expected - I thought there'd be some further nerfs to endless legions.

Thoughts?  Devs said internal balance is pretty good, but overall win rate too high, so they were aiming to bring everything down a little without hitting any one thing too hard.  To me it looks like they did a decent job of that, but I'm not a competent judge of such things.  Will this affect what any of you run?

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Sception said:

Thoughts?  Devs said internal balance is pretty good

Weird, I haven’t seen Bloodborn, the Vargskyr , Kosargi, Terrorgheist or ZDs

 

 

overall too heavy handed and one sided. The rewrite to spiritgale makes it a non pick. If the 9+ version would deal 2 MWs to 3 units it‘d be fine, yet it doesn’t.

The less picked units should receive a point decrease in return, instead they  only raised the points by ~15-20% for pretty mich every unit in use because reasons. Guess we have to min max lists even more now, thx for nothing.

luckily I didn’t waste money on the Battletome.

Edited September 14, 2023 by JackStreicher