Soulblight Gravelords Discussion - 3rd edition.

[Sutek]

4 hours ago, Mikosan said:

So question for the folks that maybe have a few games under their belt:

How do you find the strength of the healing and recycling of units?  All of my previous experience in Sigmar is elite punchy armies that don't heal or anything like Soulblights reliance on cheap hordes that can stand back up.  Does the multiple ways of healing hold up to some of the nasty damage that exists or should I expect to get wiped and bring back half strength units?  How big a deal is battle shock for things like wolves, zombies, and skelly boys?  

For reference, I am painting up a Vyrkos army so lots of dire wolves, zombies, and a 30 block of deathrattle skeletons, any tips for keeping the units from being wiped out?  Plan is to use wolves to pin, fell bats to screen, skellys to hold center objectives, zombies midfield to eat charges and deal mortals back.  Not sure my list will do much damage though, so I guess is that actually a viable way to win some games?

In theory the recycling within 3" will be great but in my only game so far I failed 6 out of 8 rolls so couldn't try it out.  I've got another game on Monday so hopefully will do better.

[MotherGoose]

One thing I find interesting is the lack of discussion on spirit gale, absolutely amazing spell in my opinion and been fantastic in the games I've done.

The fact we can have a little 130 point hero whacking down 15+ mortals a turn from a single spell without the need for range is bonkers, if you roll the 9+ version its essentially the slanns spell but on the whole enemy army rather than just d3 or d6 units.

Also similar to Teclis's spell that hits everyone within 18 for d3, (potentially d6), but spirit gale is boardwide, castable by a cheap lord that can sit in the corner out of range or next to a unit for look out sir and infinite range and can easily be done turn 1 unlike a lot of other spells.

Granted I love magic heavy lists and usually bring the cogs too for the rerolls, but it's a brilliant spell. In one of our battles (3k) I think we worked out spirit gale turn 1 did 26 mortal wounds, then turn 2 did over 20 again, over 46 mortal wounds with 2 spells. Not sure many other spells in the game have that output. Even without the 9+ cast, hitting everything is still great, with the 9+ it's essentially a 'within 3 inch' arcane bolt to every enemy unit on the board.

Edited April 21, 2023 by MotherGoose

[Leshoyadut]

Spirit Gale seems very good now, for sure, and it's going in every list I've come up with so far. Soulpike is fine, and Vile Transference is alright, but Spirit Gale is great. Even if your opponent doesn't have many units it's at worst a couple wounds over the game into priority targets to make them just a bit easier to kill. When your VLOZD has taken a little damage but you still need to kill your opponent's hero, it's nice to just get that little wiggle room for getting the kill.

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

2 hours ago, MotherGoose said:

One thing I find interesting is the lack of discussion on spirit gale, absolutely amazing spell in my opinion and been fantastic in the games I've done.

The fact we can have a little 130 point hero whacking down 15+ mortals a turn from a single spell without the need for range is bonkers, if you roll the 9+ version its essentially the slanns spell but on the whole enemy army rather than just d3 or d6 units.

Also similar to Teclis's spell that hits everyone within 18 for d3, (potentially d6), but spirit gale is boardwide, castable by a cheap lord that can sit in the corner out of range or next to a unit for look out sir and infinite range and can easily be done turn 1 unlike a lot of other spells.

Granted I love magic heavy lists and usually bring the cogs too for the rerolls, but it's a brilliant spell. In one of our battles (3k) I think we worked out spirit gale turn 1 did 26 mortal wounds, then turn 2 did over 20 again, over 46 mortal wounds with 2 spells. Not sure many other spells in the game have that output. Even without the 9+ cast, hitting everything is still great, with the 9+ it's essentially a 'within 3 inch' arcane bolt to every enemy unit on the board.

I think it's a spell you probably need to see in action to appreciate. I, having not seen it in action, am super skeptical, but am open to trying it out and being proven wrong.

The thing that makes me skeptical is that total mortal wounds don't win games, if they are spread over too many targets or time. In most cases, I'd rather have a relatively reliable handful of mortal wounds to a specific target on demand than a hojillion mortal wounds I can't put where I need them when I need them. It playing into our attrition game is the main thing that makes me think it might have good play--but like I said, maybe it will do more than I am giving it credit for.

[JackStreicher]

Spirit Gale has been super good in every single one of my games (even against s2D)

within the first two turns I dealt 6x4 Mortal wounds spread across the enemy army.

👌🏻

[Malakithe]

12 hours ago, MotherGoose said:

One thing I find interesting is the lack of discussion on spirit gale, absolutely amazing spell in my opinion and been fantastic in the games I've done.

The fact we can have a little 130 point hero whacking down 15+ mortals a turn from a single spell without the need for range is bonkers, if you roll the 9+ version its essentially the slanns spell but on the whole enemy army rather than just d3 or d6 units.

Also similar to Teclis's spell that hits everyone within 18 for d3, (potentially d6), but spirit gale is boardwide, castable by a cheap lord that can sit in the corner out of range or next to a unit for look out sir and infinite range and can easily be done turn 1 unlike a lot of other spells.

Granted I love magic heavy lists and usually bring the cogs too for the rerolls, but it's a brilliant spell. In one of our battles (3k) I think we worked out spirit gale turn 1 did 26 mortal wounds, then turn 2 did over 20 again, over 46 mortal wounds with 2 spells. Not sure many other spells in the game have that output. Even without the 9+ cast, hitting everything is still great, with the 9+ it's essentially a 'within 3 inch' arcane bolt to every enemy unit on the board.

Have you seen the new MW output the lizards can do? Spirit Gale might as well be an Arcane Bolt in comparison

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

27 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Have you seen the new MW output the lizards can do? Spirit Gale might as well be an Arcane Bolt in comparison

But of course, Spirit Gale is not about bursting the opponent down. It's another tool to contribute to the slow grind game plan.

[Gery81]

3 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Have you seen the new MW output the lizards can do? Spirit Gale might as well be an Arcane Bolt in comparison

Speaking of MWs, here is a meme list.

Legion of Blood

Heroes

- Vampire Lord, general, doomed minions, Vile transference (130)

- Vampire Lord, spirit gale, amulet of screams (130)

- Necromancer, Waste away (90)

- Wight king on steed, arcane tome (160)

Battleline

- 2x40 zombies (2x230)

- 10 Black Knights (220)

Other

- 20 Grave guard with GW (280)

- 2 Mortis Engine (2x230)

- Corpse cart with +1 to cast (blazier?) (70)

2000 points on the nose

I am sure it is clear what is the idea of this list

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gery81

[MotherGoose]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Have you seen the new MW output the lizards can do? Spirit Gale might as well be an Arcane Bolt in comparison

I have indeed, and no single spell looks as good as spirit gale. I'd rather have a spell that targets all enemies boardwide with no range or sight than your typical single target nukes like tzeentch too, though it would be nice to have both 😅

I'm half expecting them to nerf spirit gale to 24 inch range or something, boardwide+no los needed feels potentially a bit too good in some instances, but I guess we don't have huge access to other damage and almost 0 ranged options...

Edited April 22, 2023 by MotherGoose

[Malakithe]

30 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

I'm half expecting them to nerf spirit gale to 24 inch range or something, boardwide+no los needed feels potentially a bit too good in some instances,

Doubt it as the new lizards can do the same thing at greater potency. Unless they plan to nerf everything capable of similar things

[MotherGoose]

25 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Doubt it as the new lizards can do the same thing at greater potency. Unless they plan to nerf everything capable of similar things

Which ~130 point caster can do 2 mortals to every enemy unit on the board with no los in one spell? Most armies pay through the nose for such good spells IMO, but I'd be happy to be wrong and really hope they don't nerf it as its about damn time Vamps got some good magic!

[JackStreicher]

49 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

Which ~130 point caster can do 2 mortals to every enemy unit on the board with no los in one spell? Most armies pay through the nose for such good spells IMO, but I'd be happy to be wrong and really hope they don't nerf it as its about damn time Vamps got some good magic!

The rest of the spells isn’t as potent. You also have to roll an unmodified 9+ to get the most out if it, and it must not be unbound. 
It‘s really nice and puts pressure on your opponent, but it’s not game breaking at all.

Edited April 22, 2023 by JackStreicher

[MotherGoose]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

The rest of the spells isn’t as potent. You also have to roll an unmodified 9+ to get the most out if it, and it must not be unbound. 
It‘s really nice and puts pressure on your opponent, but it’s not game breaking at all.

Yea not saying its game breaking, just that i love it and have found its brilliant, especially as its so easy to fit a vamp lord in for so cheap just to bring it.

I think all the spells are awesome now, although some quite situational (vile trans is useless if your opponent doesn't have monsters/high wounds for instance) but I'm very happy with our new magic rather than just always using the same, only good spell (pinions). Its nice to be able to do damage with magic now rather than just 'roll to cast then hope it doesn't get unbound oh yea also now you have to roll again to maybe do a mortal' style spells we used to have.

Edited April 22, 2023 by MotherGoose

[TechnoVampire]

I think the spells are generally better now, but (particularly) lore of the vamps lacks any kind of utility. I think pinions was such a go to because the other spells were generally so bad. Unless you are playing an aggressive/ alpha style list you probably wouldn’t be tempted to take pinions now, but I feel it’s loss. The current lore boils down to 3 different and situationally decent ways to deal mortal wounds, but I feel like it would have been nice if there was at least a one buff or utility spell. Prison of grief provides some utility, but useable death mages are in short supply (depending on your sub faction). 

on the subject of spirit gale, I think it seems solid (better in certain match ups) but in no way broken, especially after seeing what they’ve printed in the new seraphon book. 

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

13 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

I think the spells are generally better now, but (particularly) lore of the vamps lacks any kind of utility. I think pinions was such a go to because the other spells were generally so bad. Unless you are playing an aggressive/ alpha style list you probably wouldn’t be tempted to take pinions now, but I feel it’s loss. The current lore boils down to 3 different and situationally decent ways to deal mortal wounds, but I feel like it would have been nice if there was at least a one buff or utility spell. Prison of grief provides some utility, but useable death mages are in short supply (depending on your sub faction). 

on the subject of spirit gale, I think it seems solid (better in certain match ups) but in no way broken, especially after seeing what they’ve printed in the new seraphon book.

I'd say the Lore of Vampires spells are OK and have pretty clear use cases.

Have a buff hero that hangs out with a bunch of stuff you don't want to get charged (Grave Guard)? Soul Pike.

Have a big monster that you want to keep alive? Vile Transference.

Want to put a bit of a clock on your opponent? Spirit Gale.

Spirit gale is a nice spell, in my opinion, but coventional wisdom is that stuff that does a little damage spread out to a lot of units tends to be a noob trap. The 10 mortals you get off of spirit gale are definitely not compareable to 10 mortals into a single lynchpin hero or unit. But in SBGL, I think spreading a bit of damage around to everything is actually good. It adds up over time and casts from Vampire wizards are not in short supply, generally speaking. The chip damage makes opposing buff heroes less safe and makes it more likely that SBGL trash units will win their engagements againts weakened opponents.

[Craze]

14 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

 

... especially after seeing what they’ve printed in the new seraphon book. 

 

As you mentioned this a couple of times now, what do you actually mean? As far as I can see they retained their two main MW spells (Comet's Call & Stellar Tempest), one of them even being moved from being a Slann Warscroll Spell to a spell you need to pick (Comet's Call) and can only pick it in Starborne. Apart from this, they just gained the Cosmic Crush for Skinks...I just can't see this new big bad MW spell that you seem to see. Apart from that our Spell Lore was never mainly focused on dealing MW but also on crippling debuffs, which we still get and which seem to be stronger then ever.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Craze

[TechnoVampire]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

As you mentioned this a couple of times now, what do you actually mean? As far as I can see they retained their two main MW spells (Comet's Call & Stellar Tempest), one of them even being moved from being a Slann Warscroll Spell to a spell you need to pick (Comet's Call) and can only pick it in Starborne. Apart from this, they just gained the Cosmic Crush for Skinks...I just can't see this new big bad MW spell that you seem to see. Apart from that our Spell Lore was never mainly focused on dealing MW but also on crippling debuffs, which we still get and which seem to be stronger then ever.

That’s the first time I’ve mentioned it, but I think others have also. I was mainly referring to Kroak’s warscroll spell, which he can spam and project through an oracle or skink to reach almost anywhere on the board averaging significantly more damage than Spirit Gale. 

Edited April 24, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[Craze]

13 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

That’s the first time I’ve mentioned it, but I think others have also. I was mainly referring to Kroak’s warscroll spell, which he can spam and project through an oracle or skink to reach almost anywhere on the board averaging significantly more damage than Spirit Gale. 

Ok sorry, my bad...somehow thought it was you before. 😅

Yeah, Comet's Call is this one standout spell when it comes to dealing MW...but they had this also in the last book with the only change being that it is not a Slann Warscroll Spell anymore. And of course, targeted MW are far better than our "all over the place" MW, but the output is not higher -in many cases a lot lower - than Spirit Gale.

[TechnoVampire]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I'd say the Lore of Vampires spells are OK and have pretty clear use cases.

Have a buff hero that hangs out with a bunch of stuff you don't want to get charged (Grave Guard)? Soul Pike.

Have a big monster that you want to keep alive? Vile Transference.

Want to put a bit of a clock on your opponent? Spirit Gale.

Spirit gale is a nice spell, in my opinion, but coventional wisdom is that stuff that does a little damage spread out to a lot of units tends to be a noob trap. The 10 mortals you get off of spirit gale are definitely not compareable to 10 mortals into a single lynchpin hero or unit. But in SBGL, I think spreading a bit of damage around to everything is actually good. It adds up over time and casts from Vampire wizards are not in short supply, generally speaking. The chip damage makes opposing buff heroes less safe and makes it more likely that SBGL trash units will win their engagements againts weakened opponents.

I agree with all of that. I think it’s a reasonable lore and each of the spells has a pretty clear use. It doesn’t particularly excite me, but I guess in their heads GW figures vampires only use magic for hurting things, which thematically maybe works?

[TechnoVampire]

4 minutes ago, Craze said:

Ok sorry, my bad...somehow thought it was you before. 😅

Yeah, Comet's Call is this one standout spell when it comes to dealing MW...but they had this also in the last book with the only change being that it is not a Slann Warscroll Spell anymore. And of course, targeted MW are far better than our "all over the place" MW, but the output is not higher -in many cases a lot lower - than Spirit Gale.

No worries at all 😊

I was referring to Kroak’s spell “celestial deliverance” which does D3 damage to 3 units and can be cast 4 times (at +2 or +3 with a banner bearer). If you were to get it off 4 times (quite plausible) you’d be looking at an average of something like 20 mortal wounds with massive range.

I know it’s not ‘like for like’ as spirit gale  is a lore spell, and the other is on a 390 point warscroll, but I was using it as a an example of a (kind of) board wide mortal wound spell with significantly more damage potential than Spirit Gale (unless your opponent has gone seriously wild with MSU). If GW is ok with that I’d be surprised if they start to view spirit gale as problematic 😊

[MotherGoose]

The difference for me (and why I like spirit gale so much) is that it can be cast easily from a hero that costs 130 points and can sit out of dispel range, 70 points for +1 to cast from a cart if you really want, and against certain armies it is even better (kruleboyz covered in mud boltboyz, nighthaunt tanky but low wound elite infantry for instance). I've also been extremely lucky with my rolls in the last few games. One of my games by the end of my turn 2 my 130 point vampire had killed 4 boltboyz covered in mud on his own JUST from spirit gale, as well as doing 4 mortals to the rest of the army too, at infinite range. At that point he's already got more than his value back in turn 2. Would be a very different story with worse rolls.

Kroaks spell, whilst undoubtedly amazing (which it should be lets be honest, it's kroak), cost 395, plus relies on casting through another unit that has to be put in harms way and will likely die the next turn, trog is probably the best survivability wise, but then you're looking at 395+270 or however much the trog costs. 700ish points into that spammable spell feels like it should be as good as it is.

Spirit gale is far easier to pull off rangewise as it relies on nothing other than the cast itself, and I find it hard to not include it in most armies. That being said there's only 3 to choose from and I usually have 3+ vampire casters...

On another note, I tried mannfred the other day and he feels much cooler to me personally and less NPE for the opponent, the legions movement/charge shenanigans are awesome, and mannfred himself seemed really good. Noticed the extra rend too, but also noticed the lack of +1 to hit and wound command 😂

Edited April 24, 2023 by MotherGoose

[TechnoVampire]

13 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

The difference for me (and why I like spirit gale so much) is that it can be cast easily from a hero that costs 130 points and can sit out of dispel range, 70 points for +1 to cast from a cart if you really want, and against certain armies it is even better (kruleboyz covered in mud boltboyz, nighthaunt tanky but low wound elite infantry for instance). I've also been extremely lucky with my rolls in the last few games.

Kroaks spell, whilst undoubtedly amazing (which it should be lets be honest, it's kroak), cost 395, plus relies on casting through another unit that has to be put in harms way and will likely die the next turn, trog is probably the best survivability wise, but then you're looking at 395+270 or however much the trog costs. 700ish points into that spammable spell feels like it should be as good as it is.

Spirit gale is far easier to pull off rangewise as it relies on nothing other than the cast itself, and I find it hard to not include it in most armies. That being said there's only 3 to choose from and I usually have 3+ vampire casters...

On another note, I tried mannfred the other day and he feels much cooler to me personally and less NPE for the opponent, the legions movement/charge shenanigans are awesome, and mannfred himself seemed really good. Noticed the extra rend too, but also noticed the lack of +1 to hit and wound command 😂

That’s nice to hear… I have only played the new book once and my first dice roll of the game (after priority) I excitedly attempted to cast spirit gale and rolled snake eyes, dealing my vamp lord 2 mortal wounds… so that’s maybe prematurely soured me a little 😆. I can imagine it provides a pretty high amount of Timmy enjoyment when double cast,  so maybe my previous post was a little critical in terms of the fun factor. 

I’m glad Mannfred has some play, the new warsrcoll didn’t appeal to me, as he was a key aspect of my previous strategy, but I can definitely understand why he might have provided a bit of a NPE. I think he’s really cool in the lore and on the table though, so I’m glad people are finding him useful. 
 

RIP +1 hit and wound throughout the book 🪦

 

Edited April 24, 2023 by TechnoVampire

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

That’s nice to hear… I have only played the new book once and my first dice roll of the game (after priority) I excitedly attempted to cast spirit gale and rolled snake eyes, dealing my vamp lord 2 mortal wounds… so that’s maybe prematurely soured me a little 😆. I can imagine it provides a pretty high amount of Timmy enjoyment when double cast,  so maybe my previous post was a little critical in terms of the fun factor. 

I’m glad Mannfred has some play, the new warsrcoll didn’t appeal to me, as he was a key aspect of my previous strategy, but I can definitely understand why he might have provided a bit of a NPE. I think he’s really cool in the lore and on the table though, so I’m glad people are finding him useful. 

 

Something I can say in defense of Spirit Gale is that against a unit of 10 dudes with one wound each, two mortal wounds are about the equivalent of -1 to hit in terms of the reduction to their damage output. Against MSU spam Spirit Gale is probably going to be pretty great! Of course, not so much against monster mash.

[Wordy9th]

People keep talking about spirit gale doing 2 mortals a turn but that’s only on a 9+ so it’s fairly unlikely? Or am I missing something 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 hour ago, Wordy9th said:

People keep talking about spirit gale doing 2 mortals a turn but that’s only on a 9+ so it’s fairly unlikely? Or am I missing something 

No, I'm pretty sure that's it.

But skill is just a crutch for people who can't roll a 9+, anyway.