Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[Enoby]

Just now, Unit1126PLL said:

I would definitely be interested in a discussion on knife vs whip vs hand vs shield.

It seems like everyone is taking shield as the default, so I am curious if anyone would rather take any of the others (e.g. a depravity farm list that hopes to get the 5++ by/sometime in BR2).

I think, if I were running multiple Keepers or a very fast list, I'd be tempted to branch out. The shield is great if you're dead set on keeping a Keeper alive (for a Pretenders general etc), but the other choices are all very attractive if there's a less clear target for the opponent to blast into. 

For example, Seekers and the Masque immediately harassing shooting units and casing issues up front to allow the keeper to wade into combat unabated and make use of the other options. 

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Unit1126PLL said:

I would definitely be interested in a discussion on knife vs whip vs hand vs shield.

It seems like everyone is taking shield as the default, so I am curious if anyone would rather take any of the others (e.g. a depravity farm list that hopes to get the 5++ by/sometime in BR2).

In pretenders with a Keeper general, I'm likely taking the shield to protect my General and because Strength of Godhood is what I'm relying on to boost my damage.  

In Invaders though... especially if I've got a second Keeper and looking to pull shenanigans like +2 attacks, I'm thinking Knife looks very tempting for one of them.   

Similarly, a mid-late game summoned Keeper may have priorities other than survival, making the shield less of a priority. 

[MotherGoose]

Just now, Coril said:

This is the profile I'm running for the insensate thirster. I haven't read through Khorne's full book yet, but this was what was on its scroll so I've included it.

In the same vein I've included the Keepers ability to get mortal wounds on 6s to wound in the calculations as well

I haven't included anything like the Dark Temptations mortals (I count these as some of the many tricks the KoS have at their disposal as opposed to raw combat stats) 

I could probably throw together a comparison of the different Keeper loadouts such as knife and whip at some point, though

Thirster is damage d3+3 not 5, which maybe is where the discrepancy is.

Edit - just seen I've still got 5+ ward on the target lol! Without that I'm getting 9 damage vs 4+ save for thirster and 7.5 for a keeper with 6s doing mortals and it's regular attacks... so yea slightly different but you'd expect a thirster to hit WAY harder, at only 70 points less and being pure melee that's quite surprising. I guess averages can't account for a bubble of mortal wounds exploding around the target, but still...

[MotherGoose]

5 minutes ago, Unit1126PLL said:

I would definitely be interested in a discussion on knife vs whip vs hand vs shield.

It seems like everyone is taking shield as the default, so I am curious if anyone would rather take any of the others (e.g. a depravity farm list that hopes to get the 5++ by/sometime in BR2).

I think a 5++ is just so damn good that it's hard to go for something else especially when you can stomp+temptate and attack you're probably killing most things anyway, so survivability is way more appealing, but as you say sort of pointless when your whole army gets it anyway...

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, MotherGoose said:

Thirster is damage d3+3 not 5, which maybe is where the discrepancy is.

Edit - just seen I've still got 5+ ward on the target lol! Without that I'm getting 9 damage vs 4+ save for thirster and 7.5 for a keeper with 6s doing mortals and it's regular attacks... so yea slightly different but you'd expect a thirster to hit WAY harder, at only 70 points less and being pure melee that's quite surprising. I guess averages can't account for a bubble of mortal wounds exploding around the target, but still...

In the previous book, the way of it whenever I tried to make a Keeper work was it did nothing, or it did 10-15 mortals and exploded something.  I think once it was something where that number of mortals actually mattered.  

Give me consistency any day lol. 

[MotherGoose]

Just now, KrispyXIV said:

In the previous book, the way of it whenever I tried to make a Keeper work was it did nothing, or it did 10-15 mortals and exploded something.  I think once it was something where that number of mortals actually mattered.  

Give me consistency any day lol. 

Yep same here with the thirster, I actually much prefer the whip variants now due to consistency... it is fun when the explosions happen but its way WAY more common for them to do nothing...

[Coril]

2 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

Thirster is damage d3+3 not 5, which maybe is where the discrepancy is.

Edit - just seen I've still got 5+ ward on the target lol! Without that I'm getting 9 damage vs 4+ save for thirster and 7.5 for a keeper with 6s doing mortals and it's regular attacks... so yea slightly different but you'd expect a thirster to hit WAY harder, at only 70 points less and being pure melee that's quite surprising. I guess averages can't account for a bubble of mortal wounds exploding around the target, but still...

D3+3 is an average of 5, which is what the app uses, I just simplified it because I was doing the calculations on my phone. Discrepancy could be coming from me not including Dark Temptations, maybe? I don't think it ought to count for a raw damage calculation since your opponent could always opt to give you the DP instead, which whilst potentially more powerful isn't something you can always rely on

[MotherGoose]

2 minutes ago, Coril said:

D3+3 is an average of 5, which is what the app uses, I just simplified it because I was doing the calculations on my phone. Discrepancy could be coming from me not including Dark Temptations, maybe? I don't think it ought to count for a raw damage calculation since your opponent could always opt to give you the DP instead, which whilst potentially more powerful isn't something you can always rely on

The app does calculate standard deviation and stuff too so will change it when it's calculating 10s of thousands of results, which is probably why I ended up with 9 and you ended up with 10 vs 4+ save. But yeah I'm getting 7.5 from Keeper with 4 attacks 3s 3s r1 d2 and 2 attacks 3s 3s r2 d5 6s to hit doing mortals in addition and 6s to wound doing damage as mortals.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MotherGoose

[KrispyXIV]

2 minutes ago, Coril said:

D3+3 is an average of 5, which is what the app uses, I just simplified it because I was doing the calculations on my phone. Discrepancy could be coming from me not including Dark Temptations, maybe? I don't think it ought to count for a raw damage calculation since your opponent could always opt to give you the DP instead, which whilst potentially more powerful isn't something you can always rely on

I agree on d3+3 = 5, the math should be expected to be identical... I would think.  

I think stuff like Dark Tempations is worth asking to include as an additional case - its not necessarily reliable, but its not discountable either.  It definitely has value. 

[Coril]

4 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

The app does calculate standard deviation and stuff too so will change it when it's calculating 10s of thousands of results, which is probably why I ended up with 9 and you ended up with 10 vs 4+ save. But yeah I'm getting 7.5 from Keeper with 4 attacks 3s 3s r1 d2 and 2 attacks 3s 3s r2 d5 6s to hit doing mortals.

Keepers only do mortals on wound rolls of 6s, not hits. When you calculate it on hits you get 7.5, which is probably where our discrepancy is. 

3 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I agree on d3+3 = 5, the math should be expected to be identical... I would think.  

I think stuff like Dark Tempations is worth asking to include as an additional case - its not necessarily reliable, but its not discountable either.  It definitely has value. 

I agree that Dark Temptations is worth considering since it has a lot of value, but once you start including factors like that into these calculations you can start to get a slippery slope. Do we start including potential Temptation Dice damage as well?

[MotherGoose]

4 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I agree on d3+3 = 5, the math should be expected to be identical... I would think.  

I think stuff like Dark Tempations is worth asking to include as an additional case - its not necessarily reliable, but its not discountable either.  It definitely has value. 

Yea Dark Temptations should be including imo as you're never not going to do it.

[MotherGoose]

4 minutes ago, Coril said:

Keepers only do mortals on wound rolls of 6s, not hits. When you calculate it on hits you get 7.5, which is probably where our discrepancy is. 

I agree that Dark Temptations is worth considering since it has a lot of value, but once you start including factors like that into these calculations you can start to get a slippery slope. Do we start including potential Temptation Dice damage as well?

Yea I said a while back I was including the battle trait of 6s doing mortals in addition, without it it drops to about 6 damage - again not bad considering the greater demon of combat is only 9 vs average save. Dark Temptations you'll always do so 2 extra mortals brings him only 1 damage behind a thirster which, imo, is impressive (or shows thirsters aren't quite good enough in combat?). Then tie in the 2x caster, 5+ ward, run and charge etc. I think they're great for their points.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MotherGoose

[MotherGoose]

2 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

Yea Dark Temptations should be including imo as you're never not going to do it.

Imo Dark Temptations should be included as its on the warscroll and you'll do it every time you're in combat, it's more akin to including the unfettered fury's mortals on a 4+ as you'll always be doing that too, whereas including the Temptations dice is more akin to including blood tithe or another unit.

[KrispyXIV]

Just now, Coril said:

Do we start including potential Temptation Dice damage as well?

In the case of the current discussion, a comparison between a KoS and a Bloodthirster, it appears that the additional 2 mortals makes a big difference in some cases between how well a Keeper "keeps up with" a Bloodthirster.  Noting that a Keeper that gets damage from Dark Temptations is competitive is a relevant point.  

While I do think that including Temptation Dice in all comparisons is a bit too far, it is also relevant in comparisons of damage between units.  Our units can afford to be marginally worse than their competition on damage output since our army may be getting up to average 12 extra mortals a turn. 

[Coril]

2 minutes ago, MotherGoose said:

-snip-

 

1 minute ago, KrispyXIV said:

In the case of the current discussion, a comparison between a KoS and a Bloodthirster, it appears that the additional 2 mortals makes a big difference in some cases between how well a Keeper "keeps up with" a Bloodthirster.  Noting that a Keeper that gets damage from Dark Temptations is competitive is a relevant point.  

While I do think that including Temptation Dice in all comparisons is a bit too far, it is also relevant in comparisons of damage between units.  Our units can afford to be marginally worse than their competition on damage output since our army may be getting up to average 12 extra mortals a turn. 

The issue with including both Dark Temptations and Temptation Dice in damage calculations is that your opponent gets the choice to say no to the mortal wounds. Sure, getting DP is great for us, but if you're trying to determine how good a Keeper is in combat in comparison to a Bloodthirster, then it seems unwise to include a "guaranteed" D3 mortal wounds that you opponent may just say no to when you need them. 

I want to make it clear that I think the Keeper is a great model that has a place in many of our lists, just that when it comes to hitting things with sticks, Khorne is the clear winner until Slaanesh devises a slightly more subtle approach...

[KrispyXIV]

1 minute ago, Coril said:

 

The issue with including both Dark Temptations and Temptation Dice in damage calculations is that your opponent gets the choice to say no to the mortal wounds. Sure, getting DP is great for us, but if you're trying to determine how good a Keeper is in combat in comparison to a Bloodthirster, then it seems unwise to include a "guaranteed" D3 mortal wounds that you opponent may just say no to when you need them. 

I want to make it clear that I think the Keeper is a great model that has a place in many of our lists, just that when it comes to hitting things with sticks, Khorne is the clear winner until Slaanesh devises a slightly more subtle approach...

I'm not saying count it as guaranteed, I'm saying to include an "+2*".

[Coril]

5 minutes ago, KrispyXIV said:

I'm not saying count it as guaranteed, I'm saying to include an "+2*".

I completely agree. On a slight change of topic, I've also thrown together a quick comparison of the Keeper weapon options. 

In order to calculate the whip's damage increase (which is frankly the least exciting part of the whip) I've had to include it as you would a melee weapon. In reality you'll only be getting these numbers on any turn when you get both a shooting and a combat phase, so every other turn. 

On top of that, I had to fiddle around with the way that the app works with the knife, since it does mortals equal to the roll on a 2+. I'm pretty sure the average for the knife should be 3.33, which is the number I've used in the calculations, but if that's wrong then so will the corresponding numbers.

All in all the knife looks pleasantly surprising. Between the various other mortal wound options that we've already discussed, the knife doesn't pose an insignificant threat.

The aegis is still the best option for survivability, clearly, but as a secondary Keeper or a late game summon, I could see it potentially having a place.

[MotherGoose]

16 minutes ago, Coril said:

 

The issue with including both Dark Temptations and Temptation Dice in damage calculations is that your opponent gets the choice to say no to the mortal wounds. Sure, getting DP is great for us, but if you're trying to determine how good a Keeper is in combat in comparison to a Bloodthirster, then it seems unwise to include a "guaranteed" D3 mortal wounds that you opponent may just say no to when you need them. 

I want to make it clear that I think the Keeper is a great model that has a place in many of our lists, just that when it comes to hitting things with sticks, Khorne is the clear winner until Slaanesh devises a slightly more subtle approach...

Yea for some reason that didn't really cross my mind, it's not guaranteed d3 mortals as you say.

Yeah i was initially using the thirster comparison because (especially the insensate rage) are 330 points of *pure* melee, should be one of the hardest hitting things in the game imo, and the Keeper, whilst worse on average, comes close in combat - with way more versatility and abilities and being a 2x caster they seem great.

Then I went down the rabbit hole of mathhammer

[MotherGoose]

1 minute ago, Coril said:

I completely agree. On a slight change of topic, I've also thrown together a quick comparison of the Keeper weapon options. 

In order to calculate the whip's damage increase (which is frankly the least exciting part of the whip) I've had to include it as you would a melee weapon. In reality you'll only be getting these numbers on any turn when you get both a shooting and a combat phase, so every other turn. 

On top of that, I had to fiddle around with the way that the app works with the knife, since it does mortals equal to the roll on a 2+. I'm pretty sure the average for the knife should be 3.33, which is the number I've used in the calculations, but if that's wrong then so will the corresponding numbers.

All in all the knife looks pleasantly surprising. Between the various other mortal wound options that we've already discussed, the knife doesn't pose an insignificant threat.

The aegis is still the best option for survivability, clearly, but as a secondary Keeper or a late game summon, I could see it potentially having a place.

The knife looks brilliant here... and that's not even really taking into account just how good it could be vs models with ethereal or 2+ saves etc.

Nighthaunt are one of my armies and lady O has the 2+ mortals ability at range and it's always been good, I get that the Keepers is close range but still potential 6 mortals on top of everything is spicy.

Edited March 29, 2023 by MotherGoose

[Cambyses]

9 hours ago, Sonnenspeer said:

Had my first game with the new book. Destiny Dice did nothing, as Sylvaneth just refused the dice and heal the chip damage. Probably better vs other fractions.
But euphoric killers was so good. The Slickblade Seekers did 20 depravity points in one turn. 10 in the next.
Speaking of Slickblades, they where my most valuable unit in the game. Slaangors just died and I think a second unit of Slickbaldes would be better. Or do you think Slaangors fullfill a role I just jet do not see?

I think Slaangors just don't really have a good role unfortunately. They deal good damage for their cost and are buffable by LoP, but lack in both speed and durability to compete with out other units.

 

For a dedicated damage dealer, I would rather invest the extra points into fiends or Slickblades as you can control your engagements a lot better with their speed.

 

For disruption I would rather invest into Seekers for speed or Daemonettes for the larger unit footprint.

 

For centerline anchoring and screening I would rather invest into Myrmidesh for the added durability.

[Unit1126PLL]

Don't forget the knife only works if an an enemy model with allocated wounds is within 1", otherwise it is the same as a hand.

In other words, worse against 1-wound-per-model units and against units where you have done exactly enough wounds to only leave unwounded models alive.

 

A clever opponent could put remaining wounds on models at, say, 1.5" and be immune to the knife.

Edited March 29, 2023 by Unit1126PLL

[Alezya]

8 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Anyone else thinking Syll-Esske is actually a really solid pick now. Nice spell, solid damage output, reasonably fast with run and charge and an amazing (if hard to maintain) wide area buff.  Also a Warmaster so you get a backup general. Feels like a steal at 215 points. 

Yes! He also lost the mortal keyword on his scroll, meaning he actually just needs a single Mortal unit to give the benefit of his aura.

Slickblade Seekers are looking very good to get early depravity points on screening units or out of position units as well: high move w/ run & charge, decent amout of attacks and good rend. What's not to like? 

The Masque is a superb assassin/pressure tool.

Mesmerising mirror seems like an autoinclude to either generate DP or dealing damage: good range, aoe effect, triggering on both movement phases. 

Planning to run Invaders, as I prefer the stacking of heroic actions: Seems like we can stack the -1 save debuff on the same unit, which looks pretty interesting!
+1A is also nothing to be sneezed at, specially on something like Sigvald. Do we agree that Syll'esske and Sigvald get to benefit from those? 

 

[JerekKruger]

8 hours ago, Wordy9th said:

Syll’esske has a great warscroll, though I need to try a practice game to see how workable his amazing buff is in practice. I do worry for his health at 9 wounds with no ward, but perhaps for his cost that is fine.

I am not enough of an expert to really judge, but I do like the warscroll. Seems to pack a lot into a decent prices package.

47 minutes ago, Alezya said:

Yes! He also lost the mortal keyword on his scroll, meaning he actually just needs a single Mortal unit to give the benefit of his aura.

Sadly not, the rule specifies "other" daemon units 😟

[LeonBox]

6 hours ago, Enoby said:

Current Sylvaneth game is going well

My list is:

 - Army Faction: Hedonites of Slaanesh

  - Army Type: Invaders

LEADERS

Keeper of Secrets (400)

  - General

  - Command Traits: Best of the Best

  - Shining Aegis

  - Artefacts of Power: Icon of Infinite Excess

  - Spells: Flaming Weapon

Contorted Epitome (190)

  - General

  - Spells: Lash of Slaanesh

Glutos Orscollion (480)*

  - General

  - Spells: Pavane of Slaanesh

Lord of Pain (135)*

  - General

The Masque (140)*

  - General

BATTLELINE

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Blissbarb Archers (150)*

Myrmidesh Painbringers (145)*

Symbaresh Twinsouls (140)*

ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS

1 x Mesmerising Mirror (60)

CORE BATTALIONS

*Battle Regiment

TOTAL POINTS: 1990/2000

---

Turn 1

They gave me first turn, and I charged their first unit of revenants with the Masque, who killed 4 of them (for 8 depravity) and then they teleported away, and I shot at the little tree men with scythes (whose name escapes me) with the Blissbarbs to deal 5 wounds (with the help of a nearby LoP), but I offered a 6 to keep one alive and they took it. I rolled a 4 on the DP for a total of 12 depravity. I also shot at the unit of dryads who were outside of the forest at the time, and killed 9 of them when battleshock is taken into account.

As for spells, I managed to cast a single mystic shield on the KoS from the Epitome. 

I tried to make a charge with the KoS into Drycha, but couldn't stretch the 10", so I waited in front of her and the tree lord. 

On their turn, they had similar casting luck as me and only managed to heal one of the little tree men with scythes by one. Those lil tree men marched up to challenge one of my units of blissbarbs, and Drycha and the treelord moved to kill the KoS, who had decided it was their time to shine and had used finest hour. Drycha and the Lady of Vines shot at the KoS, and the Treelord Ancient shot at the Masque, but the ward saves were very lucky for both of them and they didn't take anything from shooting. Drycha did take 3 mortal wounds from a rejected temptation offer for one of her shots though. The Treelord Ancient killed six Blissbarb Archers with his shooting. 

Drycha and the treelord charged into the KoS. The Treelord made them strike last and Drycha did a monstrous duel. I tried to roar the treelord, but it failed. The little tree men with scythes charged into my five remaining blissbarbs, who unleashed hell and killed one. They made short work of the other Archers and teleported away to cover. 

The same could not be said for the Treelord and Drycha. Drycha refused the KoS initial temptation and took an additional 2 mortal wounds, leaving her on just five. In display of very poor luck from Sylvaneth and good luck from me, the treelord and Drycha only did six damage to the KoS, who struck back with the Icon active. Despite very poor hitting and wounding, the KoS did 5 MWs in a last did attempt from the claw, which finished Drycha. 

The current battlefield:

 

Great read, looking forward to the rest of the battle! I hear we've been having a tough time with Sylvaneth so I'll be very curious to hear the outcome of this one. 

[azdimy]

Anybody else find the fane of Slaanesh not useful anymore? No more depravity generation with it and plenty of other means to get +1 to wound that there are no reason to stack mean it s been relegated to a terrain piece to hide small heroes for me. It s a shame really when you compare it with the new khorne skull altar. Reroll prayers, increase invocation range, can summon within 16 and does so even if smashed to rubble