tupavko Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 This is a question that came to my mind from another forum... I've been a Beastmen player for a very long time, and I always loved them, especially minos. In this last period since Age of Sigmar came I found very, very satisfaying playing huge hords of gors, and I'm pleased to see, they do pretty well even with "big guys"... On the other hand I'm very very sad to see my lbeloved minos turned into pure rubbish in my opinion. Where I play we use the General's handbook pointspretty much always even for campaigns, and pointwise I believe Warherds are some of the worst choices out there.The formation Bullgore Stampede is great as well as the Doombull's Slaughterer's Call... but everything else is pretty much "weak".A Doombull is pure junk compared to his alternatives: Megaboss, Ogre Tyrant, Daemon Prince are all better (he used to be much killy-er than these guys but it's not like that anymore)... 3A rend -2 3 damage?!?!?!? Seriously that's ******...Minos have 2 or 3 attacks (you get 2 more for every 6(5) to wound with the formation ,but to get there you have the 4+ to hit so it's not that they are so killy as it might seem. Ironjaw Brutes are much more dangerous than 3 minos...The funny thing is that 20 gors are more dangerous than minos, cost less and have more potential to get better cause of a lot of synergies with heroes, besides being much more resilient due to wounds: you get 20 wounds with gors vs. 12 wounds for minos with the same armour save for the same price (gors cost 20pts less)...In terms of offensive: gors can unleash with the formation 40A at 4+ 4+ that easely (always) turns into 3+ (BSB) 3+ (Caos and Anarchy) or even an absurd 60A at 3+ 2+ (a roll of 4+ for Chaos and Anarchy while over 20 models and within a range of a hero - both pretty easy to achieve) and are much faster than minosBesides Warherds have no protection at all, and actually very few wounds too, so against most opponents they lose very soon they HtH effectivness (which is also limited see above)At 1000pts you get the minumun:Doombull3x3 MinosGhorgonThat's 11 models 58 wounds... naked... no magic protection... and oddly even weak in HtH.If we compare the Warherd to the Breyherd these numbers get even worse... for 1000pts you get:GorthorShamanBSB2x20 gors10 gors + 10 ungors2 chariotsSo over 80 wounds, magic protection, absurd speed, a powerfull General with regen etc...At higher points the gap becomes even worse.I trully loved minos, they were/are my favorite "race", but now I see no reason for playing them at all...Am I missing something? Do you guys use them and how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolden Spoons Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 I guess we wait for the faction book. ⚔ Certainly wouldn't bet against synergy based lists, just look at the Bone Splitter Archers, but yes it is a shame as Doombulls used to be unstoppable killing machines. The Gorgon is pretty tasty these days though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.speller Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Have you played any games with them yet to see how they do at 1000 points? I really like the look of minotaurs with great weapons, just for the rend and damage. I'd be interested to see how well they work in practice. I've put them as a potential list to do in the new year if we don't see another cool chaos release in the meantime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 With the rule of one, they are junk. If they could get God keywords, they could be interesting. Tzaangors could be the leading edge of a new dawn for Beastmen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireymonkeyboy Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Nico said: If they could get God keywords, they could be interesting. Tzaangors could be the leading edge of a new dawn for Beastmen! This. I would love to run some in my Khorne list just for cools, but the total lack of synergy makes me hold back. FMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.speller Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 1 hour ago, Nico said: With the rule of one, they are junk. If they could get God keywords, they could be interesting. Tzaangors could be the leading edge of a new dawn for Beastmen! I'm going to be the first guy who says this; they need to do the same thing for Skaven. Pestilens got the Nurgle keyword and it makes their plagueclaws super useful as part of a daemons/mortals army. I really want an excuse to buy warherd for my Khorne army, a Jabberslythe for my Slaanesh and gutter runners for Tzeentch. Formations would go a long way to filling in the gaps of what we've got currently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tullbeard Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 My opinion is that Warherd are great; they just aren't great on their own. A mono warherd army is too weak against magic and shooting etc. I took a 2k list to the Warlords event consisting of 1k Warherd (The bullgor stampede formation) and 980 points of slaves to darkness. It worked quite well but is still weak to ranged. Against combat armies I had tough, close games. The bullgors are incredible and their low number of attacks isn't too much of a problem due to their wounding on 2's (with command ability) and generating extra attacks. Even better if you get the Chaos Allegiance trait off on them for +1 to hit. like you said though, they would benefit highly from tailored allegiance abilities/artefacts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 31 minutes ago, james.speller said: I'm going to be the first guy who says this; they need to do the same thing for Skaven. Pestilens got the Nurgle keyword and it makes their plagueclaws super useful as part of a daemons/mortals army. I really want an excuse to buy warherd for my Khorne army, a Jabberslythe for my Slaanesh and gutter runners for Tzeentch. Formations would go a long way to filling in the gaps of what we've got currently. Agreed, I'd also say that Slaughterbrute needs to have Khorne as an optional keyword and Mutilath beast Tzeentch as an optional keyword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tupavko Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 On 11/9/2016 at 6:37 PM, Wolden Spoons said: I guess we wait for the faction book. ⚔ Certainly wouldn't bet against synergy based lists, just look at the Bone Splitter Archers, but yes it is a shame as Doombulls used to be unstoppable killing machines. The Gorgon is pretty tasty these days though. I'm afraid that is going to be a long wait But than again the Tzaangors ggave me a lot of hope... We survived the Tomb Kings and Bretonnia purges so we're ere to stay... 7 hours ago, james.speller said: Have you played any games with them yet to see how they do at 1000 points? I really like the look of minotaurs with great weapons, just for the rend and damage. I'd be interested to see how well they work in practice. I've put them as a potential list to do in the new year if we don't see another cool chaos release in the meantime. I played a lot of games with Breyherds, and 3-4 with Warherds (small games up to 1000pts). The fact is, that after a year I felle that the Breyherds are actually a very good faction, not saying their are OP but they can hit hard, they have some extremly good synergies and some serious weaknesses which according to me are the main ingrediants for a good balanced and interesting to collect and play faction. On the other hand Warherds are only good on paper... When you play them you actually see onyl the bad side of them: - weak heroes, hard hitting but not so killy units, very, very , very few wounds compared to other factions, no armour, no magic at all... Often a Warherd acts a sitting duck, and the worst thing in the games I played was that you even had to think twice when engaging, since even the weakest enemies in a fair size can really cripple your army... 7 hours ago, Nico said: With the rule of one, they are junk. If they could get God keywords, they could be interesting. Tzaangors could be the leading edge of a new dawn for Beastmen! Yeah the rule of one, really messed them up, but than again, without that rule, some other things would have been OP. I fully agree on God Keywords and I trully belive GW is going back to those, besides the fact they already did with the Tzaangors... PS - I love my 6th edition Pestigors 5 hours ago, james.speller said: I'm going to be the first guy who says this; they need to do the same thing for Skaven. Pestilens got the Nurgle keyword and it makes their plagueclaws super useful as part of a daemons/mortals army. I really want an excuse to buy warherd for my Khorne army, a Jabberslythe for my Slaanesh and gutter runners for Tzeentch. Formations would go a long way to filling in the gaps of what we've got currently. The only thing I don't like about it is that I see more Pestilens warmachines than actual Pestilens warbands... but than again I'm might be stuck in the past still, so I have to look at it from a different perspective... Now Pestilens are what chaos darfs used to be: warmachine crews 5 hours ago, Tullbeard said: My opinion is that Warherd are great; they just aren't great on their own. A mono warherd army is too weak against magic and shooting etc. I took a 2k list to the Warlords event consisting of 1k Warherd (The bullgor stampede formation) and 980 points of slaves to darkness. It worked quite well but is still weak to ranged. Against combat armies I had tough, close games. The bullgors are incredible and their low number of attacks isn't too much of a problem due to their wounding on 2's (with command ability) and generating extra attacks. Even better if you get the Chaos Allegiance trait off on them for +1 to hit. like you said though, they would benefit highly from tailored allegiance abilities/artefacts. I do see you point, and I do agree in a certain way, Warherds are better as support rather than stand alone, but are they that good to replace other choices? Meh I'd rather spend 1000pts more in monsters and more gors for my Breyherd rather than taking a Warherd... or even some cousin beastmen Skaven are a much better choice for Breyherd support, you get huge speed and brutal warmachines... and you're still all beastly in a certain way... Basically a cheesy goat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomedes Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Yeah Warherds are garbage in my opinion too. I've tried so many times to run minotaurs, doombulls, ghorgons, cygors, and it's just a waste of time and points. They just die far too easily, it's a big beefy smelling target to any opponent. 180 points for 3 minotaurs can get you 30 ungors, which have access to a ton more synergy, move faster, and with an inspiring presence and mystic shield, they can actually soak up some serious damage. The best bit is a unit of 30 gives you far more board control, you are much less likely to be flanked, you can bury all important characters in their ranks, and you can take more objectives. In the world of herds, the warherd is by far the inferior herd when compared to what you can accomplish with a well built brayherd list. I love my minotaurs, I love Fernando (my doombull) to bits, but they just sit on my shelf gathering dust while my brayherds are getting all the killing done. On marks, as much as I would like to see them, it would make the beastmen obscenely powerful. The brayherd is already a pretty solid force, with the addition of marks they would instantly be top tier. Gors and Bestigors can already charge with a potential move of 16, and it's possible to get them hitting and wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s to hit if the gors have 2 weapons, with 3 attacks each. If you could add a bloodsecrator to that, things would get out of hand really quickly. It would have to be done with beastmen specific marks, not with the current keyword system. Nice to see a fellow Herdstone poster here though, welcome Tupavko. I pooped in a stormcast's shoes and set them on fire to mark your arrival, and my herd are currently holding an orgy in the woods somewhere in celebration of another mighty horned beast joining the ranks of TGA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Buckler Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Depends what you want from them, pre GH bulltribe was awesome, had some good wins with it. Post think there is merit in Stampede with junk battleine. Its not gonna win, but also not gonna get trashed either, mid table brutality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 There's just one niche where I've had my Warherd be merely underpowered, rather than completely hopeless - doubles. If I can do 1000 Warherd (ie. exactly one min-size Bullgore Stampede), and my ally has a shooting/magic Skaven list, things can work out fairly decently. Well, maybe not "decently", but not completely awful - I'd still be better off with almost any other army. But at least I feel like I can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolden Spoons Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 My only beast men stuff I looked at is a cheeky ungor raider unit. Marks would be great for a good lost and the damned list. Also better for Path to Glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinros Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 9 hours ago, Nico said: With the rule of one, they are junk. If they could get God keywords, they could be interesting. Tzaangors could be the leading edge of a new dawn for Beastmen! I do think they are leading the way for beastmen The tzaangot and the minotaur who can shoot fireballs is going to be part of the tzeentch Arcanites for sure hell they are a part of it in the app. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 Actually they were completely broken pre-Clash Comp - their synergy actually turned one attack into two attacks - so a potential autodelete worse than the Rippers. Some genius could have won eternal bragging rights by winning a major event with Beastmen. SCGT hit the sweet spot on exploding attacks - about as powerful as mortal wounds on sixes, but not infinite - chance of exceptional damage if you lucked out with a few extra sixes. GH has sadly driven a wedge between Slaanesh, Warherd, Tomb Kings and Night Goblins on the one hand and favoured Retributors, Executioners, Bloodletters and Spiderfang on the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomedes Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 One cool thing about warherds you can do now with GH is give the doombull +1 to wound with the command trait, and combined with the command ability he can get another +1 to wound. This would mean extra attacks are generated on a 4 up wound roll. Oh and you can give him that weapon that gives him an extra attack too. 4 attacks, 3s (potentially 2s if you get the destruction roll) and 2s, generating extra attacks, with a -2 rend and 3 damage each. Thats an awful lot of punch for 120 points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThereIsOnlyJoe Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 That's what I've been doing with Blackmantle, my Doombull. He's great. Warherds are great. Shouting BEEEEEEEEF whilst playing warhammer is great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted September 14, 2016 Share Posted September 14, 2016 I love to run a warherd army. I've got a load of brayherd stuff as I love the minis. The minotaurs are junk though. It still makes me sad. I doubt we'll ever see new ones now. So sad. Sadness. I'm sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james.speller Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 9 hours ago, hobgoblinclub said: I love to run a warherd army. I've got a load of brayherd stuff as I love the minis. The minotaurs are junk though. It still makes me sad. I doubt we'll ever see new ones now. So sad. Sadness. I'm sad. I'm not sponsored (yet) by mierce-miniatures but I'm sure they're going to have really decent ones on their site. Failing that you might find models in the privateer press orobos range. Just can't use them in your local GW or warhammer world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 I'm not sponsored (yet) by mierce-miniatures but I'm sure they're going to have really decent ones on their site. Failing that you might find models in the privateer press orobos range. Just can't use them in your local GW or warhammer world. The Mierce ones are nice, just not right the aesthetic for me. Avatars of War's minotaurs are amazing but they're around £20 each, and there's only two of them. If they were to release a plastic box I'd probably go for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amysrevenge Posted September 15, 2016 Share Posted September 15, 2016 The Mierce ghorgon-analog is FANTASTIC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crispen Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 I played a 1500pt list and ran a unit of 6 minos with great weapons and a doombull and they did alright. Pretty decent against chaos warriors that I found the gors bounced off of. Having said that I'm not the best player and neither was my opponent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nico Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 That's a very favourable match up against an army with abysmal shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobgoblinclub Posted September 17, 2016 Share Posted September 17, 2016 The Mierce ghorgon-analog is FANTASTIC. Yes it is! The smaller minos don't the aesthetic I'm looking quite as well though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.