Oceanic Battles: Lore and Gameplay

[Neverchosen]

Hey friends,

One of the things that has really captured my attention in Age of Sigmar is the varied and fantastical setting. Any conflict or adventure seems possible in the Mortal Realms and the fairly straightforward rules make it possible to easily adapt different forms of combat with a variety of objectives and goals. Yet there is a missing piece of the puzzle which is incorporated into the lore but not the gameplay: Naval combat!

The seas are not simply open to naval combat in ships, but also a spectacular setting for the aerial maneuverability of the Kharadron Overlords, the ghastly hosts of Nighthaunt floating above the waves, and the mythical forces of the aquatic dwellers known as the Idoneth Deepkin. Fresh water lakes, rivers, ponds and swamps are the home to many other mythological creatures and beasts, notably for our game the amphibious skinks, the swamp dwelling Kruelboyz and the forth coming river temple of the Lumineth Realm Lords.


So my question is how do the seas, lakes, bogs, rivers and other bodies of water in the mortal realms impact your games, lore and campaigns? What type of vessels or sea monsters do you imagine for your favourite factions? Finally would you like boats and naval combat incorporated into the rule set or as a side game in a potentially different scale?

Edited August 24, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Neverchosen]

Wow the youtube algorithm never fails to creepily monitor my internet activities as this made it into my suggested videos:

 
I have also been considering making a nautical Nighthaunt army with a Gloomtide shipwreck as a Black Coach and Lauchon the Soulseeker as a proxied Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed. However, I would want to have them floating over cracked ice which would be a difficult process for me as I am not a fan of working on bases.

As for my armies, I imagine Chaos Warriors in long ships with demonic heads at the prow and blown by cold demonic winds. The Stormcast would ride in ornate metal barges powered by arcane magics. Finally my Beastclaws would just freeze the waters and walk over on their beasts of burdern.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Greyshadow]

I am lucky enough to have a full painted set of Dreadfleet that I painted a few years ago. I think it is a fantastic game. The ships in the set are are really versatile mix that could represent a wide range of factions from the Age of Sigmar. I’ve purchased a few Man-o-War ships I could add in to the mix too. I’ve played ongoing campaigns that featured naval battles and I’ve always found it really adds to the narrative and scope.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Greyshadow

[Neverchosen]

1 hour ago, Greyshadow said:

I am lucky enough to have a full painted set of Dreadfleet that I painted a few years ago. I think it is a fantastic game. The ships in the set are are really versatile mix that could represent a wide range of factions from the Age of Sigmar. I’ve purchased a few Man-o-War ships I could add in to the mix too. I’ve played ongoing campaigns that featured naval battles and I’ve always found it really adds to the narrative and scope.

I would love to see your fleet and to hear how you incorporate naval battles into your campaings.

I could see using naval battles as great means of controlling territory but also having an impact on supply lines (maybe effecting the amount of artifacts) and reinforcements (cannot deepstrike units in turn one). I also really hope we get an update of dreadfleet within AOS. I can imagine KO having a lot of strengths with a flying force, and would love to see mini Leviadons. I imagine windbased magic being essential so Lumineth would be a very fluffy and powerful force. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Neverchosen

[SunStorm]

1 hour ago, Greyshadow said:

I am lucky enough to have a full painted set of Dreadfleet that I painted a few years ago. I think it is a fantastic game. The ships in the set are are really versatile mix that could represent a wide range of factions from the Age of Sigmar. I’ve purchased a few Man-o-War ships I could add in to the mix too. I’ve played ongoing campaigns that featured naval battles and I’ve always found it really adds to the narrative and scope.

I never got to play Dreadfleet. It got a lot of flack at the time right? Was that unwarranted?

I do often look at the minis and think about picking some up for a painting project. 

[Neverchosen]

I am going to amend my previous statement, as I think Ogor Mawtribes/Beastclaw Raiders should ride massive Walrus in the oceans!

Edited August 26, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Starfyre]

I'm painting some Kruleboyz Boltboyz in an ocean theme rather than swampy, their long rags kinda somewhat remind me of the zora armour in breath of the wild and crossbows are kinda harpoony. There's loads of little hooks and details that can be painted as fish bones. I've taken that as inspiration and mine are basically enemies of idoneth, so the clothes are a mirror of the main idoneth scheme, with the blue-grey skin of the Zora.

I don't think we'll see another dreadfleet any time soon - I know from a GW sales rep their area account manager encouraged them to literally bin copies in a dumpster it sold so badly. That's what set GW off on the strategy that any side-games they made must always have models that usable in Warhammer or 40K. I guess that's changed in more recent years with aeronautica and titanicus, but I suspect they weren't treated as being a knock-out like the revamped space hulk was, which I believe influenced forecasting for dreadfleet stock.

[Twisted Firaun]

I’m doing a Tomb Kings flavored gravelords army that’s based in a swamp in Ghur called The Soul Vine Bayou, which feeds into a oceanic realmgate. My Hedonites are also based out of there, and both of them are searching for a near forgotten demi-goddess. I try to showcase the swamp by using gloomspite bits, stirland battlemire, and Nurgle’s rot.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Loyal Son of Khemri

[Neverchosen]

58 minutes ago, Loyal Son of Khemri said:

I’m doing a Tomb Kings flavored gravelords army that’s based in a swamp in Ghur called The Soul Vine Bayou, which feeds into a oceanic realmgate. My Hedonites are also based out of there, and both of them are searching for a near forgotten demi-goddess. I try to showcase the swamp by using gloomspite bits, stirland battlemire, and Nurgle’s rot.

That sounds amazing! 

I feel like you could develop an actual ongoing narrative with this theme for Black Library. I hope that you one day fit IDK into this narrative as they have a really cool range of models and your imagination and narrative could really make them fit into the story in a dramatic fashion. I am imagining them as protectors of the goddess or vicious pirates that are a perpetual throne in the side of the other armies.

The theme and setting for my armies is set in frozen wastes, it focus' on an ideological conflict between an army that lead a crusade against chaos and were corrupted in the process. The few faithful died and were then chosen by Sigmar to fight against the threat of their former comrades. The city from which the crusaders left has fallen to ruin and become the home of Ogors, they are nomadic folk that traded with the city dwellers in the past, one day they came to trade with the people and found the city abandoned, but are now accused of destroying the home of the crusaders. Finally, if I ever create a fourth army it will be a death faction to represent the city abandoned by the crusaders... rather than dying to the ogors they were taken captive by Corsairs and then their arks sunk into the frozen depths and now they haunt the lands in search of the warriors that abandoned their home. 

[Twisted Firaun]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

I feel like you could develop an actual ongoing narrative with this theme for Black Library. I hope that you one day fit IDK into this narrative as they have a really cool range of models and your imagination and narrative could really make them fit into the story in a dramatic fashion. I am imagining them as protectors of the goddess or vicious pirates that are a perpetual throne in the side of the other armies.

I've actually been meaning to make this into a community thing. We could each come up with a minor/demi god figure and duke it out for our respective factions.

For example, the Tomb Kings/Gravelords are led by Sekhubis: a minor deity of Funerary rites and Knowledge (in particular the last words and secrets of dying men). He and his followers were driven out of Shyish towards the end of theAge of Chaos, when Arkhan and Neferata used the souls of his underworld to cast a spell that wiped out a vast hedonite carnival. Sekhubis led his followers to the yet to be named realm gate and emerged in the Soul Vine Bayou in Ghur. The Bayou earned it's name from the fact that any who die in it have their souls caught by the various flora, creating a pseudo-underworld in Ghur. After wiping out the local priests of Nagash and the adults of the local tribes (who was worshipped as the King of the Endless Revelry), Sekhubis and his followers raised the children in the Old Faith and adopted the title of Papa Malfini or "Father Vulture." Papa Malfini was told by one his new converts of an ancient legend, that a goddess of snakes and poison once made her home in the swamplands, and has not been seen since the Dark Gods began their assault on the realms. So Papa Malfini ordered his most loyal retainer, a Tomb King known as Zamses The Ever-Joyful, to scour the lands for this deities resting place. Sekhubis hopes to find the hidden goddess, and convince her to join her faith to his in order to survive Sigmar's foolish crusades. 

 

My Hedonites on the other hand? They're a Godseekers force lead by a Daemon Princess known as Aesha "The Bride of Delightful Stories." She earned her title by convincing a Keeper of Secrets to marry her instead of taking her soul as he was promised. When her husband fell in the Age of Chaos and hadn't been resurrected no matter what ritual she performed, she came to the conclusion that Slaanesh requires her to sacrifice a being of equal power in order to bring her husband back to the mortal realm. Not as developed I know, but I'm working on it.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Loyal Son of Khemri

[Greyshadow]

11 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

I would love to see your fleet and to hear how you incorporate naval battles into your campaigns.

Ah, come sit by the fireside @Neverchosen, let me tell you the story of the Battle of Kraken Bay...

13th Day of Vorhexen 2512. Empire Spies report a Chaos invasion force massing at the Fortress of Varag in the Dark Lands, marching under the banner of Chaos lord Vardek Crom.

20th Day of Nachhexen, 2513. Elements of the Chaos horde have been reported scouting the north coast of the Straights of Nagash. It is believed an advance force will soon cross the straights to begin a two thousand mile journey to open the passes across the World Edge Mountains from the west, to allow the movement of the main force directly across the mountains.

3rd Day of Jahrdrung, 2513. The Empire has ordered the Imperial Navy to blockade the straights, to stop the horde gaining a foothold on the west side of the World Edge Mountains. The naval force was assigned: the Temple class warship Spirit of Sigmar, commanded by Admiral Erwin Von Raukov; the Bretonnian galleon Eventide; a marine contingent; an Empire battalion; a Bretonnian battalion; and, Her Tapplestein of the Imperial Diplomatic Corps. The two battalions and Her Tapplestein were to land on the southern shore of the straights and rally any local cut throats, to prevent the enemy from securing the far shore.

13th Day of Jahrdrung, 2513. Raukov departs Altdorf along the River Reik.

20th Day of Jahrdrung, 2513. Raukov arrives at the great dwarven seaport of Barak Varr. He meets King Grundadrakk, requesting aid in his mission. Grundadrakk agrees, assigning the Grudgebearer class battleship Might of Valaya, captained by Thogrim Stoneshield and a small force of marines.

23rd Day of Jahrdrung, 2513. Von Raukov, having taken on supplies, commences journey across the Great Ocean to the Sea of Dread.

2nd Day of Sigmarzeit, 2513. Raukov’s fleet received reports from the Lady Valaya’s airships that a Chaos horde on the Northern shores was preparing to cross the straights. Three Chaos warships were overseeing the embarkation: a great sea-hulk flagship fashioned from chaotic magics, a Chaos Dwarf daemon ship, and a third ship of unknown origins. Raukov ordered his fleet to make best speed to the Serpent Coast, intending to attack the fleet when they were at their most vulnerable. He ordered the land force to secure the southern shore and for the naval force to cripple or sink the Chaos fleet escorting the crossing.

This battle was played as a combined Dreadfleet and Warhammer Fantasy Battle game. We alternated taking turns playing a custom Dreadfleet and Warhammer scenarios, playing both games simultaneously on two tables. Bretonnian coastal trebuchets could either target the enemy units landing on the beach side of Warhammer table or fling rocks at the war ships out at sea. If the invaders got a landing craft to the beach area on the seascape, units would arrive to reinforce the surface assault. In the end, whilst the invaders were able to overrun a coastal fort they were destroyed in a counter-attack. The naval battle was decisive, in a masterful display of seamanship, the Imperial navy sunk all but the enemy's flagship.  Victory for the Empire!

Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the photographs we took on the day to hand but I do have some photos showing some of the ships that were involved. Hope you like them!

Edited August 27, 2021 by Greyshadow

[Neverchosen]

@Loyal Son of Khemri please make that thread, I would love to learn more about the lore of your factions and contribute and workshop some of my own developing narrative ideas. Although most of my stories focus on the ascension of champions of order and chaos a struggle towards demigodhoos, with my frost elemental ogors representing an animistic and mundane middleground. In essence I see the binaristic battle of light and dark crusaders as a destructive anthropocentric force with a middle path represented by the natural and enlightened lifestyle of the Snuffaluffagus riders!

@GreyshadowWell that was unexpected and entirely amazing! I hope you can regale us landlubber's with more of these spectacular sea battles! I also would love to see more photos as your fleet looks unbelievable! 🤩
The idea of ballistas attacking sea and land is inspired. I would love to try this out as a 2v2 communicating between sea and land! 😄

Edited August 27, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Greyshadow]

17 hours ago, SunStorm said:

I never got to play Dreadfleet. It got a lot of flack at the time right? Was that unwarranted?

Dreadfleet is a fantastic game. Short version is flack was unwarranted. Interestingly, you can see ideas in it that found their way into what became Age of Sigmar (fast, simple, playable mechanics; ranged and close combat using same core rules).

It wasn't marketed as being able to be adapted and added to but in practice this is easy to do. It was also quite fantastical for its time, pre-empting the grandeur of the Mortal Realms.

I had an absolute blast painting the set. It is such fun as ships are so unique and diverse. No painting the same thing twenty times with this!

@Neverchosen Here are a few more photographs from the Greyshadow archives. (Apologies for the poor quality of the photographs, need to take some nice ones with my new camera).

Edited August 27, 2021 by Greyshadow

[Neverchosen]

22 hours ago, Greyshadow said:

@Neverchosen Here are a few more photographs from the Greyshadow archives. (Apologies for the poor quality of the photographs, need to take some nice ones with my new camera).

 

 

Wow they are all fantastic! But this Ghostly Galleon makes my Nautical Nighthaunt dreams feel more appropriate. I watched one batrep featuring Dread Fleet and it seemed like a really fun time. However the limited support and appeal towards the board game market seem to have done it no favours. However, I think the points you make about its relationship to AOS and the increased support for board games make a possible return much more exciting. 

Throwing it out there what factions would people want to see in a new Dread Fleet boxset?

I think this would definitely be a good place to emphasize the Grand Alliances by creating 4 fleet boxes with five starter ships each.

[Greyshadow]

Sadly, I don't know if we'll ever see the likes of Dreadfleet again but if we did 😃:

- Cities of Sigmar - Scourge Privateers (Order)
- Maggotkin of Nurgle - Plague Fleet (Chaos)
- Ossiarch Bonereapers (Death)
- Orruk Warclans (Destruction)

[Neverchosen]

9 hours ago, Greyshadow said:

Sadly, I don't know if we'll ever see the likes of Dreadfleet again but if we did 😃:

- Cities of Sigmar - Scourge Privateers (Order)
- Maggotkin of Nurgle - Plague Fleet (Chaos)
- Ossiarch Bonereapers (Death)
- Orruk Warclans (Destruction)

That would make an amazing starter set actually!

Here are some possible expansions, I tried to represent different facets of each grand alliance while expanding on your initial choices which I am  imagining as the basis of a core set. I also tried to have a mixture of ships, aerieal units and monsters all of which would have advantages and disadvantages:
Order: Stromcast Drake, Kharadron Battleship, Idoneth Giant Leviadon, Idoneth Kraken, Dispossessed Man of War
Chaos: Bloodthirster, Lord of Change, Darkoath Longship, Skaven Brig, Furnace King Demonic Barge
Death: Ghostly Galleon, Vampire Coast flagship, Skeletal Hydra, Zombie Cetacean, Flesh Eater Galley 
Destruction: Grotbagscuttler skycruiser, Wading Gargant, Hobgrot Schooner, Ogor Pirate Ship, Orruk Wyverns

Edited August 28, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Orsino]

There are so many ways to incorporate naval combat into AoS. You can have an entire AoS-themed mini-game using the rules for Dreadfleet or another ruleset, you can come up with terrain rules for fighting on the ocean and have big ships as moving terrain pieces, or you can simply convert or proxy ships and boats as various units within regular AoS games. I've just started work on turning marauders into pirates and was very happy to find I have some boats from the old Pressman pirate-battle game which should work great proxied as chariots with a bits of conversion:

And for the big ships you can always use the anvil of apotheosis and Runbrushes' excellent warscroll designer to create your own custom ship warscrolls:

This is an approach that appeals to me because it means you can use your cool nautical stuff in casual pick-up games, rather than having to come up with a whole new ruleset and find other people who want to use it.

[Neverchosen]

@Orsino that is an amazing theme and terrific work. What rules do you use for models in the water that always seems to be a difficult thing to represent on the tabletop. Although if they are they are frozen Norsca styled seas maybe counting as slain would be appropriate?

I hope you find a way to include Wulfrik the Wanderer into your army/lore even if only in passing. But please let us know how games with your new navy go in the future!

[Orsino]

12 hours ago, Neverchosen said:

@Orsino that is an amazing theme and terrific work. What rules do you use for models in the water that always seems to be a difficult thing to represent on the tabletop. Although if they are they are frozen Norsca styled seas maybe counting as slain would be appropriate?

I hope you find a way to include Wulfrik the Wanderer into your army/lore even if only in passing. But please let us know how games with your new navy go in the future!

For my chaos pirates I plan on playing them in normal games without special rules, but this brings up the question of how to make ships/aquatic creatures visually make sense on normal non-oceanic boards. 

It's fantasy so you could have them flying of course, but if the model they're proxied as doesn't fly that could be confusing for your opponent. Could have them pulled across the ground by beasts? Or carried aloft like the chaos warshrine? Could base them to suggest they're moving through ice sheet, or swamp or some other terrain where ships and people on foot could interact?

Or the other option is to just have them be on water bases and say the board has conveniently flooded, perhaps they magically bring the waters with them as BCR do with frost. 

What approach do people think is best?

And I wasn't familiar with Wulfrik so thank you! Will definitely have to find a way to incorporate him.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

35 minutes ago, Orsino said:

For my chaos pirates I plan on playing them in normal games without special rules, but this brings up the question of how to make ships/aquatic creatures visually make sense on normal non-oceanic boards. 

That's actually why I never quite warmed up to the inclusion of ships in otherwise non-naval strategy games. Just by the nature of ships not going on land (I feel silly even typing this out), it just always seems like if strategy games include naval units, they are just off doing their own thing and not engaging with the primary, land-based game. It just kinda always happens when I play a game with ships: The bases of me and my opponent are not in the water. Our important troops are not in the water. Whatever I am trying to capture is not in the water. So what am I doing engaging in the naval aspect of the game? From Civilization, to Command and Conquer, to Advance Wars, to Age of Empires, this has always been a problem to me and I have yet to see a game developer really solve it.

As far as ocean-themed armies: I think the whole Aethersea thing that Idoneth Deepkin have going on is pretty good, even though the idea of just bringing the sea with you is pretty obvious. Another fairly obvious way to make to incorporate ships on the tabletop would be Flying Dutchman type ghost ships. I guess for non-supernaturally gifted factions, there is always the crown jewel of Empire engineering, the Land Ship:

https://www.battlebrushstudios.com/2014/07/showcase-marienburg-land-ship.html

 

Also, I think Gutrot Spume arrives to battle by ship every time? In rules terms, it's just a board edge ambush, though.

[Neverchosen]

On 9/7/2021 at 3:48 AM, Orsino said:

What approach do people think is best?

 

On 9/7/2021 at 4:35 AM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

As far as ocean-themed armies: I think the whole Aethersea thing that Idoneth Deepkin have going on is pretty good, even though the idea of just bringing the sea with you is pretty obvious.

Yeah, I think having an Idoneth lord who fell to Chaos would be a fantastic idea. Maybe even use the Eidolon of Mathlann as an oceanic demon prince summoning chaotic storms that bring forth a tidal wave of blood and chaotic warships! Personally I would use them as a proxy for Be'Lakor too get the extra punch into your army.

Here is a really awesome custom paint scheme someone did for a vampiric Eidolon: 
 

If that is too much or doesn't fit your desired list you can include a regular Idoneth ontop of a boat as a warshrine summoning waves for the rest of the army. The soulrender would potentially make a good fit for a chaos force.

Edited September 15, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Sharkbelly]

This is an awesome idea, and I love to see everyone's creativity here. I have played around with creating ships and stats for them as well. 

This is a MegaBloks ship that I painted for my undead. I have a small fleet of other ones for humans, ogres, dwarves...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Sharkbelly

[Neverchosen]

On 9/23/2021 at 11:04 PM, Sharkbelly said:

This is an awesome idea, and I love to see everyone's creativity here. I have played around with creating ships and stats for them as well. 

This is a MegaBloks ship that I painted for my undead. I have a small fleet of other ones for humans, ogres, dwarves...

 

 

 

 

 

This is so cool! I also wish they did something similar for siege rules and terrain.

Also that ship looks really amazing which is strange that it scales so well from Megabloks... 😮 

[Neverchosen]

For all of my fellow sea battle enthusiasts we are getting some maps and rules for underworlds for fighting in the realm of Ulgu's sea caves. However, these maps also provide further hints at the high sea adventures or underwater dwelling for AOS. Hopefully there is some inspiration to take from this article and most importantly that Malerion's forces come riding in on dread fleets:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/09/28/welcome-to-harrowdeep-the-shadowy-new-setting-for-warhammer-underworlds/