Stormcast Eternals 3.0 - There is no "a" in Vindictors

[Dogmantra]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im over here wondering why the battlelines are still way over costed compared to Saurus Warriors and Chaos Warriors. Theres no longer any reason why Liberators and the others shouldnt be minimum of 10 and pointed down to where other 2w battleline are

Don't like the idea of minimum 10 unit size in SCE since they're supposed to be elite warriors, but I can't help but agree with feeling the power creep seeing all the 4+ save 2W battleline with decent attacks around and 3+ saves on heroes.

38 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

So are Vigilors finally playable in tabletop AOS with this drop?

Potentially. Their only real advantage over other options given the cost imo is the fact they're conditional battleline for if you want to do a heavy shooting army. Judicators being 200 pts is silly and I can only think it's because they want to encourage you to take at least some infantry. If you're taking a Knight Judicator (or six) already, I think 40-50 extra points to upgrade one unit of battleline to Vigilors might be worth it, but I'm not sold on going beyond that. I think Vanguard Raptors will still win out in the sniping and volume of attacks department, and Castigators win out as cheap midrange shooting (average of 2/3 the attacks of Vigilors with a slightly better profile and at almost half the points).

[CommissarRotke]

40 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Don't like the idea of minimum 10 unit size in SCE since they're supposed to be elite warriors, but I can't help but agree with feeling the power creep seeing all the 4+ save 2W battleline with decent attacks around and 3+ saves on heroes.

yeah it's a little frustrating how paper thin our defenses are compared to both the lore and other battleline rules!! give us ignore rend or reroll saves if any kind of easily accessible MW defense is off the table..................

 

42 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

Castigators win out as cheap midrange shooting (average of 2/3 the attacks of Vigilors with a slightly better profile and at almost half the points).

these going from our most useless (ranged) unit to the best fill-in-points pick is still giving me whiplash.

[Doko]

4 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Im over here wondering why the battlelines are still way over costed compared to Saurus Warriors and Chaos Warriors. Theres no longer any reason why Liberators and the others shouldnt be minimum of 10 and pointed down to where other 2w battleline are

yes

 

both saurus and chaos warriors have:

20 wounds with save 3(saurus not allways and it is 4+1)

have 8,8 rend 1 damage(saurus also extra 3 mortals with bytes)

cost 180/200

but our liberators per example a unit of 10 cost 220 than is more and have same wounds and save but less damage.

 

liberators must cost around 90 points and vindictors 90 also

[CommissarRotke]

Would we rather see stat improvements or ability additions instead of a points drop?

[Lord Krungharr]

Libbies need an extra attack either if outnumbered or on the charge.  But I think GW overvalues petty MW stuff (Lay Low the Tyrant) so that's why the extra points on them.  At least they get a 3+ save if over half shields, which mine always are, and they get a 6++ near an objective.  

Stormcast just need better Command Traits, spell lore, and artefacts, and tactics/grand strats.  They're really really lackluster, and for the tactics, nearly impossible to achieve more than one or two with any kinda specific build type.  Requires too much take-all-corners styling.

I'm gonna have to see if I can fit 2x6 Dracoths in there now with the coherency rules.  That's great news for them and the Dracolines like someone else mentioned.  Even Gryph-Chargers will like that.

[Juicy]

We need celestial warbringers to boost casting.. Come on That HQ is a freakying wizard...

Anoys me since day 1.

[Lord Krungharr]

They want us to buy giant dragons for casting buffs.  Or an allied frog.

[Dogmantra]

As a noted Gryph Hound enjoyer I've become rather excited at what the updates hold for them. All 6 can get in to fight now thanks to the coherencey update, giving you a whopping 25 attacks for 90 points. Throw in Hoarfrost for some rend (and celestial blades if you're being extra silly) and if everything goes right you have 25 attacks at 2+/3+/-3/1. Of course it's reliant on getting a kinda tricky to cast spell off, and also reliant on your no save doggies not just dying immediately at the start of the game, but let me dream. It's more likely you'll get something like 2+/4+/-2/1 which tbf is still nothing to sniff at (sniff because they are dogs)

Edited July 11, 2023 by Dogmantra

[Lord Krungharr]

With the new coherency rules including units 6 being able to just be within 1" of a single other model, some other competitive dudes in my local group are touting Fulminators in big blocks as battleline.  I'm inclined to agree, that is pretty awesome.  But there are quite a few ways to shut down enemy charges by halving the distance, etc.  Almost want to take an Incantor or two with something like that.  They'd get to cast a spell too but shut a couple down for important times.

I built my 2x4 Dracoths as Desolators and Tempestors.  For times to get stuck in, Desolators have proven fairly consistent for me, and Tempestors have pretty good output in general too.   But I think some magnetizing could prove a good thing; plenty of stabby bits leftover to make Fulminators.

[Dogmantra]

What does 6 buffed fulminators kill that 4 doesn't already blend to a pulp?

In all seriousness though, 6 fulminators does sound very scary, although I feel like once you get to 6 of that size cavalry base it becomes pretty tricky to get all of them into a threat, even with more lenient coherencey rules. I've run blocks of 6 Dracolines before (same size base) and it was tricky moving them around the board, even at a width of only 4 bases. 6 bases in a row is over 12" wide!

Edited July 13, 2023 by Dogmantra

[Lord Krungharr]

That's a good point.  Though 6 of either does provide ablative wounds so the 4 we need get in there after Unleash Hell and other possible obstacles.  And they can engage multiple targets in some cases; like if there were 2 units of zombies near each other, then 3 could strike each unit....and then all die after the zombies strike when they die with their MW salad-fingers and regenerate and whatever else zombies do these days.

I'm sour this morning, I need sugar. 

and more coffee.

[Dogmantra]

So with the cities stuff pretty general knowledge now, are there any standouts that might perhaps be worth allying in or doing a stormkeep with?

I was liking the idea of cannons with lord ordinator until I actually compared them to Longstrikes. I want to use that rare coveted ORDER buff but it just isn't very good.

Any wizards or anything that seem worth it?

[Lord Krungharr]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

So with the cities stuff pretty general knowledge now, are there any standouts that might perhaps be worth allying in or doing a stormkeep with?

I was liking the idea of cannons with lord ordinator until I actually compared them to Longstrikes. I want to use that rare coveted ORDER buff but it just isn't very good.

Any wizards or anything that seem worth it?

Hmmm, sure doesn't really seem like it at the moment.  I'll definitely enjoy allying the LordO and/or Vigilors into my Cities Steam Tank army though.  Maybe some Dark Riders though; they're really fast, don't care about much else that the Cities stuff uses, and they can ****** over enemy Commands on occasion and pester weakling heroes with weakling shots.  I think you could field 3 separate units of them for the allies points limit.

[Marcvs]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

So with the cities stuff pretty general knowledge now, are there any standouts that might perhaps be worth allying in or doing a stormkeep with?

I was liking the idea of cannons with lord ordinator until I actually compared them to Longstrikes. I want to use that rare coveted ORDER buff but it just isn't very good.

Any wizards or anything that seem worth it?

First impression is not much, most of their power comes from synergies, order and lore spells (tenebral blades for the elves notably).

Two stand outs:

- a Kharybdys to stop rally/inspiring presence in a very decent range (12" bubble + 8" move + either 1d6 run or 2d6 charge), also very good to use the behemot slot in a Battle Regiment if you're going for low drops.

- a Command Corp just for the crazy good 4+ to stop a command (plus they can heal/resurrect themselves)

[Lord Krungharr]

Ooh yeah, forgot about the Kharybdis.  You could fit that and some Dark Riders so it won't feel too lonely

[Marcvs]

11 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think you could field 3 separate units of them for the allies points limit.

they are 150pts in the new book, so max 2 units even at 2k points and (imho) a bit too pricey to justify bringing them but I agree that they are among the interesting units.

[Lord Krungharr]

Anyone running Dracoths lately?  I'm on the fence about using my Hammers Dracoth army or my Clan Eshin army at a tournament coming in September.  Eshin has clobbered the Dracoths in practice before, but I won Best Order army at a 1k event with my Dracoths back in March, so I am torn.

I love both armies.  What do Stormcast players think?  I know they're not real high in the 'meta' lately, but it's been said that could be because it's an army geared towards newer players so perhaps they haven't mastered their generalship.  Solid warscrolls though, my list would be:

Knight Draconis (general, Celestial Instincts, Master of the Menagerie, some kinda relic...maybe Mirrorshield?)

Knight Zephyros

Lord Arcanum on Gryph

4 Tempestors

4 Desolators

2 Fulminators

2x5 Vigilors

maybe Quicksilver Swords if they fit.

[Dogmantra]

Like all Stormcast lists I think you'll struggle to contest objectives without completely clearing them, but your list seems like it'll do pretty well clearing blobs off objectives.

I've had my eye on Tempestors for quite a while thinking they're probably pretty good, and I matched up versus another player who ran four against me at a recent event and yeah they are excellent. I feel like their shooting looks worse on paper than it is on the table, I think it's that I just can't really appreciate each hit causes two wound rolls until I see it in action. They're great at clearing screens then charging whatever's behind them, and their melee isn't too bad either.

I'm a noted LA on Gryph liker, and having the teleport is really nice for battle tactics. Same with the Zephyros.

Worth noting Master of the Celestial Menagerie won't do anything for you since it got errataed to key off the Behemoth role rather than the Monster keyword. I wish SCE had even one half decent command trait.

I get the point behind the Vigilors but I'd personally hesitate bringing two units, instead I'd go for maybe some Castigators for extra ranged chip damage, maybe Gryph Hounds (showing my bias) for more bodies, plus they're nice to sneak in the two charges and two retreats battle tactic if you don't have two engaged units at the start of your turn, or a Chariot as an all round good unit at the same price.

[Mikosan]

14 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

Anyone running Dracoths lately?  I'm on the fence about using my Hammers Dracoth army or my Clan Eshin army at a tournament coming in September.  Eshin has clobbered the Dracoths in practice before, but I won Best Order army at a 1k event with my Dracoths back in March, so I am torn.

I love both armies.  What do Stormcast players think?  I know they're not real high in the 'meta' lately, but it's been said that could be because it's an army geared towards newer players so perhaps they haven't mastered their generalship.  Solid warscrolls though, my list would be:

Knight Draconis (general, Celestial Instincts, Master of the Menagerie, some kinda relic...maybe Mirrorshield?)

Knight Zephyros

Lord Arcanum on Gryph

4 Tempestors

4 Desolators

2 Fulminators

2x5 Vigilors

maybe Quicksilver Swords if they fit.

I applaud your excellent taste good sir!

I have been taking a mostly dracoth list for a while now, 4 tempestors, 2x2 fulminators, and 2 concussors and while I love the theme of the list(I've wanted battleline dracoths since first GHB) it really struggles with objectives and battle tactics.  The last 2 day tournament I went to, I dropped 2 games due to not being able to score battle tactics in the later rounds and once the MW's start removing your models it all falls apart very quickly, but thats not really unique to dracoths with Stormcast.

The tempestors really are the MVP in almost all my games.  A unit of 4 dropping in with scions is sooooo good.  They can be screened out first battle round but I've usually got two more units of dracoths dropping in along with them and if going 2nd I will always play for the double anyway.  A list full of dracoths can be really good at rolling a flank, especially if you can get off a 9" charge after dropping in.  

Its a really fun Stormcast list that makes me happy even if it loses more than it wins, which honestly is down to absurd battle tactics and the battleplans with a ton of objectives. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Thank you both for your insights!  Didn't realize the Celestial Menagerie got nerfed 😛  Maybe plain old Battle Lust will do then.

I'll be fighting some Vampires of some sort tonight; then I'll report back....

[Mikosan]

I will be running this list next time out:

Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon- Cheapest monster hero we have and I have found the comet trail that gives +1 to hit rolls is really good since it lasts until my next hero phase and usually can hit 2 units if I'm careful.  This is great since it saves CP for all out attack across 2 turns potentially.  The cycle of the storm ability isn't great but adding an extra wound onto a 3+ sv 6 wound dracoth every turn is ok, especially with the heal from the next guy.  Thinking celestial blades for +1 to wound or thunder shock for -1 to wound.

Lord-Arcanum on Gryph-Charger- Added him in after seeing a lot of folks taking him and he should help a lot with the heal spell and the teleport.  Can't go far wrong with a teleporting locus this GHB either. Merciless blizzard 

Knight-Incantor- Good ol' scroll caddy with Hoarfrost

4 Tempestors- In the running for best reinforced unit in the SC book right now in my opinion.  The crossbows are sneaky good, they clear chaff with ease as well as whittle down the bigger threats for the other dracoths

2x2 Fulminators- Nothing really new to add here, they are great on the charge, just good off it.  Fantastic output with all out attack/the comet trail from the celestial goat and celestial blades spell.

2 Concussors- They don't hit like fulmis but the mortal wounds can be nice on the hammers.  Might drop them for the slightly cheaper desolators which are better at clearing hordes.

5 Liberators- Nothing to see here, 5 bog standard bodies with a decent save.  Early game screen and objective sitters. 

Questor Soulsworn-  Warscroll teleport once per battle and count as 18 models on objectives outside my territory.  Seems really good with a decent attack profile.  The teleport here and on the Gryph Arcanum should help with battle tactics and board presence.

Open to any thoughts or ideas for traits and items.  Could go in a warlord and redemption brotherhood for an extra enhancement and 4 drop.  

[Lord Krungharr]

It was a rough match vs the Legion of Blood last night.  He had an ethereal VLoZD, another VLoZD, 2x20 zombies, 20 skeletons, plain Vamp Lord on foot, Necromancer, Corpse Cart w brazier, and 10 Black Knights.  Frigid Zephyr was the mission, I gave him first turn, and kept my 2x5 Vigilors and 4 Tempestors in the sky, and castled my other stuff in the center.  My grand strat was to keep all my Draconith heroes alive....then I realized I only had 1.  Oh well, didn't look like any of the Andtor ones were doable for me.  Or are there still generic rulebook ones?  How do I play this game?!

He moved up and spread to my side's objective and kinda toward the center.  Then I spread out to the far objectives avoiding the center for fear of both dragons coming at me.  Tried to Dracoth-kill the Black Knights after softening them with my Vigilors, and the Tempestors made the charge, but killed all but 1.  That sukked.  I didn't get the double turn there either.

He retreated the Black Knights and came in with the regular dragon.  HOly cow that thing is a nightmare!  Didn't realize it heals up to 6 wounds for every wound it does.  Despite costing 460 points I will declare that unfair

I scored objectives okay for a while but only got I think Surround&Destroy and then Intimidate Invaders.  I shoulda tried Magical Dominance, but he had 2 or 3 primal dice to my 2, plus some kinda unbind buff, so I went for reprisal on a longshot, and failed miserably.  Definitely should have gone all my forces to my side's objective, then spread to the center by killing my way through his stuff.  With elite stuff I think it's key to not split forces like that.  Oh well, still a fun game, but Death's recursion rate is ABSURD.  The skellies just stand back up, plus the gravesite thing.  Maybe my Clan Moulder forces can do that, just need another couple Rat Ogors.

[Malakithe]

New points, who dis?

[CommissarRotke]

time for our yearly 100pt liberators, 110pt sequitors, and dropping the LRelictor yet again!

like really, anyone else get major deja vu? even the original paladins (before annihilators) got dropped by 20 points iirc...

[Marcvs]

53 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

time for our yearly 100pt liberators, 110pt sequitors, and dropping the LRelictor yet again!

like really, anyone else get major deja vu? even the original paladins (before annihilators) got dropped by 20 points iirc...

this time they sprinkled the pity points of the extra Battle Tactic. So the heroic priests of Sigmar's chosen are now costed like a random human wizard but our win-rate will probably improve slightly and the rules team will pat themselves on the back for the great job.