AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Rachmani]

In my opinion all the Nighthaunt are missing is updated Hexwraiths and some kind of monster. 
As the boat was teased, I‘m thinking something along the lines of a ghostly ferry over the river Styx. Complete with ferrymen, scribes and tallyman.

[bonzai]

I would like to see one more named character that a 3rd Subfaction could be based off of. They have mentioned a Cairnking Angrimm as being on par with Reikenor and leading his own armies. Nighthaunts seem to be 3 thematic factions already. The militant Emerald host units, the condemned, and the Banshee. So I wouldn't mind seeing the Cairnking leading his harem of Banshee.

A monster would also be great. Stretch goals would be to change all instances of "wholly within" to "within" due to the coherency changes. Greater separation and uniqueness between reapers, revenants, and stalkers. Give the revenants rend 2, make stalkers able to run and charge, retreat next turn, and charge again. Stuff like that. Tweak the black coach a bit. Wishful thinking? Give us the Mortis engine since many of us have them from the malignant box. Yeah you can ally them, but they lose their death save. Heck I would settle for just adding the nighthaunt key word and leaving it as a soulblight.

[Vastus]

Honestly with just:

• Updates to certain existing warscrolls to bring them up to 3E levels.
• Additional sub-allegiances/processions so every unit has one in which they shine.
• And a fix to make Wave of Terror less gimmicky/more consistent (maybe turn it into a command ability?).

I would be more than happy. (Maybe make Frightful Touch a Battle Trait, and move it to 5+ for Spirit Host/Hexwraiths? I'm not a huge fan of the MW spam that I'm seeing, but it just kind of fits thematically and it wasn't too powerful for Kruleboyz apparently.)

Anything beyond that (new models, update spell lore, unique batallions) would be a nice extra. Nighthaunt is a very thematic army with a decently-sized range of models, but they lack uniqueness. Grimghasts, Bladegheists and Harridans all fulfill more or less the same role for example. With new processions we could have unique niches for each of them which would give variety in list-building. Looking at Reikenor's and the Emerald Host those both provide very key specific benefits that set certain units apart, while also giving them that slight boost to make those units more competitive.

A new large centerpiece would be cool, but I don't think Nighthaunt really need a monster per se. Sure they lack the means to take down monster heroes, but that niche could be assigned to one of the existing units instead.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Vastus

[dmorley21]

Got in a game with the "Super Friends" build (Nagash / Mannfred / Olynder / 3 x 5 Hexwraiths) against a shooty Kruleboyz list. 

I deepstruck Olynder and 5 Hexes. He did the redeploy on a Rogue Idol which wiped 5 Hexes on turn 1. 

Otherwise, Nagash did all the heavy lifting while Mannfred teleported around the board grabbing objectives and charged in to finish off the general once. 

A couple takeaways:

• It's fun, but not the strongest list IMO. The lack of heroes to give Wards to Hexwraiths definitely hurts. 
• Mannfred continues to be great due to his teleport and his warscroll spell when it goes off. However, I don't think he's worth it with Nagash though in a NH list. 
• Lady Olynder has disappointed me both times I've used her in a Nagash list. Starting to wonder if bringing her is the right play and leaning towards no. But still want to try her out some more. 
• Nagash remains great. Just does so much. 
• Also, Nagash is tanky! On my opponent's turn 2, Nagash had already taken 4 wounds. My opponent blasted him with a unit of 9 Man-Skewer Boltboyz, a unit of 5 Boltboyz (1 had died), some Hobgrots, and then attacked him in melee with the Mirebrute Trogotth and Sludgeraker Beast. ...and Nagash survived with 1 wound! Mystic Shield/Finest Hour/All Out Defense... the save stacking he can do is great and the 4+ against mortals is as well. 

[lare2]

3 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

I deepstruck Olynder and 5 Hexes. He did the redeploy on a Rogue Idol which wiped 5 Hexes on turn 1. 

Just wondering if he redeployed when you brought in Lady O? Deepstriking isn't a normal move and you can't redeploy against it. 

[dmorley21]

4 minutes ago, lare2 said:

Just wondering if he redeployed when you brought in Lady O? Deepstriking isn't a normal move and you can't redeploy against it. 

No, I phrased that poorly as I typed too quickly.

Before T1 he did a Sneaky Move where he was able to redeploy the Idol anywhere on the board 9” away. I still gave away the first turn and he was able to take out a unit of Hexes. 
 

I then deepstruck Olynder and 5 more Hexes on T2. 

[lare2]

29 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

No, I phrased that poorly as I typed too quickly.

Before T1 he did a Sneaky Move where he was able to redeploy the Idol anywhere on the board 9” away. I still gave away the first turn and he was able to take out a unit of Hexes. 
 

I then deepstruck Olynder and 5 more Hexes on T2. 

Ah, gotchya 👍

[darkdaysdawn]

On 1/3/2022 at 7:54 AM, That Guy said:

Some ghostly cannonballs to add some shooting to the army would be nice 

I wasn't sold on the ghost ship idea until you said cannonballs.  Now I want one...a lot.  We have a lot of graveyard ghosts, so maybe some pirate ghosts would be a nice addition to avoid making new units that seem redundant.

And if I can't have a ghost ship, then I still think a Stay Puft Marshmallow Man would be an excellent behemoth monster. 

[darkdaysdawn]

5 hours ago, Vastus said:

Honestly with just:

• Updates to certain existing warscrolls to bring them up to 3E levels.
• Additional sub-allegiances/processions so every unit has one in which they shine.
• And a fix to make Wave of Terror less gimmicky/more consistent (maybe turn it into a command ability?).

Since we're making a wishist...

1. NH should have 4 sub-factions at a minimum to be roughly on par with other armies
2. Wave of Terror -- absolutely remove the 10+ gimmick.  It should be command ability like FEC Feeding Frenzy, or more reliable like SCE Annihilator's impact damage on the charge
3. Heroes need to be able to sustain more damage -- they're all too weak to risk in a fight
4. Deadly Coordination (a la the Soulblight WD update) or something similar to make our heroes more useful
5. Fix Ethereal and the "benefit of cover" rules so we can use the same defensive buffs everyone else can (which we used to be able to use, except for cover of course, which is still baffling and makes no sense)
6. A monster or monster hero, or even better, a monster than can have a mounted hero or not (a la Terrorgheist and ZDragon)
7. The first model in a new range of ghosts, like pirate ghosts for example (I'm now totally sold on the ghost ship w/cannons idea)

But above all of that:  Design the army so that there are multiple competitive options.  Having to spam Hexwraiths, and/or take Nagash, has totally killed NH for me.  The current meta has invalidated nearly every other model -- if you don't play Emerald Host with a pile of hexwraiths, or bring Nagash, not only will you have little chance at a tournament but you'll get stomped in casual games too (especially vs SCE and Kruleboyz).  That is very anti-fun, and does not encourage anyone to collect the entire range except as shelf decorations.

The new book can't come soon enough!  (In the meantime, building my FEC and Soulblight collections while staring longingly at my box of ghosts).

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by darkdaysdawn

[bonzai]

7 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

The new book can't come soon enough!  (In the meantime, building my FEC and Soulblight collections while staring longingly at my box of ghosts).

 

Lol, ironically as a Bonesplitterz and FEC player, I am really hoping they wait a good while before we get a new FEC book. The reason being is that I don't see them getting a big release any time soon. Given the choice between getting the stripped down Bonesplitterz treatment or nothing, I would rather keep our variety and options, and wait a while until they want to give us proper attention. 

Nighthaunts are in a different place though. They have a decent range and will hopefully get something closer to a Stormcast release with some cool new stuff and rewritten profiles so units become more niche and different from each other.

Also... you guys are warming me to the idea of ghost pirates. Lol

[Vastus]

Anyway for something other than wishlisting...my Harridans arrived yesterday evening!

My army is kind of Chamon or 'machine spirit'-themed, so my plan was to cut off all the hair and roses and make new hair out of tubing and chains. I've done greenstuff tubing before using a comb, but turns out I don't have one here. And we're in lockdown so I can't easily buy one. But I saw the head of my beard trimmer had lines too, so I thought why not try it? If there's one thing this hobby teaches you, it's ingenuity I swear.

Now, it was a bit finicky and the first tube I made way too thick, but overall I still like the idea. I think I'll keep going in this direction with the rest of them while trying to improve on the execution.

For the heads I was thinking of trying to find more Necron Deathmark heads like I did for my Grimghasts, but I saw these on Liber Daemonica that looked quite nice, so maybe I'll try those. Harridans don't really have a clear indent for the head though like the Grimghasts did, so that might be an issue.

Must say, it is nice to get back in this and the ghosties are still really pretty models like always.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Vastus

[That Guy]

On 1/6/2022 at 2:11 PM, Rachmani said:

In my opinion all the Nighthaunt are missing is updated Hexwraiths and some kind of monster. 
As the boat was teased, I‘m thinking something along the lines of a ghostly ferry over the river Styx. Complete with ferrymen, scribes and tallyman.

Kind of like the Ferryman endless spell of forbidden power but bigger. 
i’d also love to see a mechanic like disease points with Maggotkin, except perhaps we build up terror points. Perhaps at some point we get to consume these points and get to do various things to the opponent units for example make more models run away in the battleshock phase/give a large bravery debuff. Or an effect similar to Be’lakors Dark Master, where the enemy unit needs to roll each phase to see if they can overcome the terror or be stuck doing nothing. Perhaps we get to consume terror points to siphon off their fear and being able to heal/buff our units that way. A mechanic like this would be very 3rd edition style and thematic for a ghostly army.

Edited January 8, 2022 by That Guy

[EnixLHQ]

Some notes:

• Nagash is being considered a needed model for NH in the current meta (they reference this thought as coming from the larger community as well as "insiders").
  • Monster, tons of wounds, stave stacking, tons of damage if he uses Reaper's Scythe, multi-wound model return, and tons of interactions with NH spell lores.
• People who "think about rules" are "reviewing Nagash receiving bodyguard saves" meaning GW is aware and currently reviewing (Tom and Coach stress TO overrule as baseline for this right now).
• Nagash fits Emerald Host over Reikenor's Condemned mostly due to multi-wound model return. Nagash benefits Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts more than Chainraps, for example.
  • Tom prefers 5 or less unit sizes for cohesion reasons, which elevates Emerald Host lists in his opinion.
• Tom is incorrect about Lady O being a general in his list for most of the video. He corrects himself after they start talking about the list itself.
  • He then suggests Black Coach instead of her.
• And lots of hints of "new subfactions," "new rules," and other mispeaks and hand-tilts that might suggest new NH rules incoming soon.

Edited January 9, 2022 by EnixLHQ

[Tizianolol]

About Nagash i think a good idea could be:

- give Nagash 6+ ward

- not allow him to benefit from bodyguard ability

- fix "invocation of nagash" , as warscroll now if 1 hexwraith model remain with 1 wound, that ability heal 1 model only and doesnt bring back another horse. 

 

With that Nagash could be still very strong in NH

[dmorley21]

5 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Some notes:

• Nagash is being considered a needed model for NH in the current meta (they reference this thought as coming from the larger community as well as "insiders").
  • Monster, tons of wounds, stave stacking, tons of damage if he uses Reaper's Scythe, multi-wound model return, and tons of interactions with NH spell lores.
• People who "think about rules" are "reviewing Nagash receiving bodyguard saves" meaning GW is aware and currently reviewing (Tom and Coach stress TO overrule as baseline for this right now).
• Nagash fits Emerald Host over Reikenor's Condemned mostly due to multi-wound model return. Nagash benefits Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts more than Chainraps, for example.
  • Tom prefers 5 or less unit sizes for cohesion reasons, which elevates Emerald Host lists in his opinion.
• Tom is incorrect about Lady O being a general in his list for most of the video. He corrects himself after they start talking about the list itself.
  • He then suggests Black Coach instead of her.
• And lots of hints of "new subfactions," "new rules," and other mispeaks and hand-tilts that might suggest new NH rules incoming soon.

Haha it was me that pointed that out to him. Glad I did as I’ll be at the same tournament as him… hopefully also with Nagash and ghosts. 
 

Edit: Just want to add that after only two test games, I think he’s absolutely correct about Nagash’s weakness being mobility. 9” move and fly seems decent, but he’s half your army and just can be everywhere. 
 

I also agree that Nagash’s command ability can be a trap, but I think he undersold its power due to the lists he runs. A blob of… anything with an ethereal save and then a 4+ Ward save (Krulghast) is really tanky. 

Edited January 9, 2022 by dmorley21

[darkdaysdawn]

18 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Anything with an ethereal save and then a 4+ Ward save (Krulghast) is really tanky. 

Honest question:  only one unit can have a 4+ ward, right? KC 5+ bubble plus Nagash's Death Magic Incarnate? 

[dmorley21]

5 hours ago, darkdaysdawn said:

Honest question:  only one unit can have a 4+ ward, right? KC 5+ bubble plus Nagash's Death Magic Incarnate? 

Correct. Typically works best on a larger unit, though I used it to great effect on game on a unit of 10 Harridans. 

[Tizianolol]

Guys can nagash cast shademist on himself?

[EnixLHQ]

37 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys can nagash cast shademist on himself?

No. "Pick a friendly Nighthaunt unit."

[Neck-Romantic]

So where did they tease a nighthaunt boat?

[dmorley21]

18 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

So where did they tease a nighthaunt boat?

One of the rumor engines looks like it could be part of a boat and also has Nighthaunt style metalwork. That’s it.

[That Guy]

19 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

One of the rumor engines looks like it could be part of a boat and also has Nighthaunt style metalwork. That’s it.

Not sure if it's included in here, but this is a compilation of the last "preview teasers". Top 4 are definitely Nighthaunt. Bottom 5, I was thinking Ossiarch Bonereapers. 

[dmorley21]

@That Guy

No, it’s a rumor engine pic. 
 

And the bottom 5 are 99% 40k. I don’t follow the game/lore, but there’s an Eldar model that it clearly is a remake of. 

[Sception]

2 hours ago, dmorley21 said:

And the bottom 5 are 99% 40k. I don’t follow the game/lore, but there’s an Eldar model that it clearly is a remake of. 

Yeah, that's a new model for Maugan Ra, the Eldar dark reaper phoenix lord.

Not an OBR model, but potenitally conversion fodder.

[EnixLHQ]

Those NH ones look like Reikenor's candles with a spell book. Probably the altar for a caster.