AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[dmorley21]

2 hours ago, Rors said:

So our most common buff in the book is actually -1 to wound? That's interesting given how fragile this army is to getting double turned. So maybe the designers want a army that plays hyper aggressive with most of the list tech actually geared towards being evasive while doing so.

An overlapping field of -1 wound and 5+ wards would certainly go a long way to solving how much this armies special rules only benefit us in our own turn.

I mean -1 to hit is the easiest to achieve. And the -1 to wound abilities are mainly on your turn - only the spell, Shademist, lasts during your opponent's turn. 

36 minutes ago, aylien119 said:

Hi all,

First up, thanks to everyone for the thoughts and mini battle reports! It's been very helpful with brainstorming ghost lists, especially when covid makes it hard to actually play.

I had a question re: Bladegheists and Grimghast Reapers.

Why do some seem to prefer BG over GR?

So since 7 and 7/9 is greater than 7.5, wouldn't 10 GR be better than 10 BR?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks for reading all this!

You're missing gamesmanship to some degree - depending on... well a lot actually (your target, terrain, etc.) it's possible to honeycomb your 32 mm units so that all 10 can be coherent and get into combat. Even if not, you're likely getting more than 5 models into combat - 7 is usually my minimum. But it takes a lot or practice and time, which does not make for a fast game. 

The other thing is the mortal wounds Bladegheists do in Scarlet Doom. That's what makes them so good. 

Still, your point remains that in actual gameplay, mainly when reinforced, Reapers will end up doing more damage due to more models being able to fight. 

[Rors]

@dmorley21

 

 I would have thought it was the other way around. We easily get -1 to hit but only on our turn from WoT. Lord executioners, the artifact, and the spell work in the opponents turn with -1 to wound.

[dmorley21]

4 minutes ago, Rors said:

@dmorley21

 

 I would have thought it was the other way around. We easily get -1 to hit but only on our turn from WoT. Lord executioners, the artifact, and the spell work in the opponents turn with -1 to wound.

Yep, I'm probably wrong then. For some reason I thought both the LE and the artefact required you to charge, so my bad. Can't wait to have the actual book in my hands. 

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, aylien119 said:

Hi all,

First up, thanks to everyone for the thoughts and mini battle reports! It's been very helpful with brainstorming ghost lists, especially when covid makes it hard to actually play.

I had a question re: Bladegheists and Grimghast Reapers.

Why do some seem to prefer BG over GR?

I was trying to do some back of the napkin math to see how a unit of 10 BG compares against 10 GR VS a single model unit (ie, GR do NOT get their Reaped like Corn +1 attack)

BG

• BG have 1"range, 3 attacks on the charge, for a total of 15 attacks
• Of those 15
  • attack roll of 3 to 5 -> 15/2 successful hits
  • attack roll of 6 -> 15/6 auto wound
• Of the 15/2 hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 15/2 * 2/3
    • 5 successful wound rolls
• Therefore total successful wounds for 10 BG ->
  • 15/6 + 5
  • 7.5 total successful wounds

GR

• GR have 2" range, 2 attacks each, for a total of 20 attacks
• of those 20
  • attack roll of 4 to 5 -> 20/3 successful hit
  • attack roll of 6 -> 20/6 auto wound
• of the 20/3 successful hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 20/3 * 2/3
    • 40/9
    • 4 and 4/9  successful wounds
• therefore total successful wounds for 10 GR
  • 20/6 + 40/9
  • 30/9 + 40/9
  • 70/9
  • 7 and 7/9

So since 7 and 7/9 is greater than 7.5, wouldn't 10 GR be better than 10 BR?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks for reading all this!

The first misconception is that all of the unit of Bladegheists will swing at the enemy. With one inch weapon range and the need to be within 1" of two other models of the same unit if there are more than 5, then you'll quickly see that the actual amount of dice you're rolling becomes reduced.

The Reapers have the same issue, but with their 2" ranged weapons the Reapers behind the models touching your target will still be in range, increasing the overall amount of dice you'll throw.

This is what we mean by saying "they can attack in two ranks," which means that even the guys in the back can attack over the guys in front. Our Chainrasps can do that too. Despite their weapons only being 1", the Chainrasp base is less than 1" and thus not wide enough to prevent the second rank from attacking.

The second misconception is the scenario. Data such as the enemy save characteristic, their base size, their number, their damage output all matter. Reapers in our old book excelled at attacking other horde units. In our new book that's slightly less so, but now depends on the subfaction you use. For example, there won't be much that can match the damage potential of Bladegheists in the Scarlet Doom subfaction, but if you wanted to play any of the others the differences start favoring Reapers again.

And lastly, this is a dice game, and so be a bit wary of sticking hard to the math. Yes, you can literally figure out the probabilities, but the internal balance of the new book is aimed at allowing you to select units you prefer over what you're expected to take based solely on math. And, as is often the case when you deal with math hammer, is that the probabilities will betray you. Hedge your bets, but don't over invest.

[Neck-Romantic]

I think one of the takeaways is that GGR and BGR are so close, you can really just go with whichever models you like best. 

There are some minor tactical differences, but their overall output and points cost is really close.

[Kadeton]

The Grimghasts are probably the better choice in the broadest range of scenarios - they're a good "default" option. The Bladegheists will outperform them in some specific circumstances (or almost always in a Scarlet Doom list). There are way too many variables to say that either one is better than the other in general.

They're both good choices, it's just a matter of individually determining which one suits your playstyle best, and understanding how you need to position and support them differently to get the most out of each unit. Take one, take the other, take both - it's all good.

[Ordal]

7 hours ago, aylien119 said:

Hi all,

First up, thanks to everyone for the thoughts and mini battle reports! It's been very helpful with brainstorming ghost lists, especially when covid makes it hard to actually play.

I had a question re: Bladegheists and Grimghast Reapers.

Why do some seem to prefer BG over GR?

I was trying to do some back of the napkin math to see how a unit of 10 BG compares against 10 GR VS a single model unit (ie, GR do NOT get their Reaped like Corn +1 attack)

BG

• BG have 1"range, 3 attacks on the charge, for a total of 15 attacks
• Of those 15
  • attack roll of 3 to 5 -> 15/2 successful hits
  • attack roll of 6 -> 15/6 auto wound
• Of the 15/2 hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 15/2 * 2/3
    • 5 successful wound rolls
• Therefore total successful wounds for 10 BG ->
  • 15/6 + 5
  • 7.5 total successful wounds

GR

• GR have 2" range, 2 attacks each, for a total of 20 attacks
• of those 20
  • attack roll of 4 to 5 -> 20/3 successful hit
  • attack roll of 6 -> 20/6 auto wound
• of the 20/3 successful hits
  • wound roll of 3 to 6 -> 20/3 * 2/3
    • 40/9
    • 4 and 4/9  successful wounds
• therefore total successful wounds for 10 GR
  • 20/6 + 40/9
  • 30/9 + 40/9
  • 70/9
  • 7 and 7/9

So since 7 and 7/9 is greater than 7.5, wouldn't 10 GR be better than 10 BR?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks for reading all this!

Bladegheist can take up to 5 wounds and keep their damage output, while Grimghast lose potential for each wound they take (each model that dies are 2 less attacks).

I think bladeghesit have the more consistent damage output all around, while harridans and grimghast have niches were they excel but are more vulnerable or require more setup.  For instance, Grimghast can spike damage against horde units and can actually be used in units of 30 without losing much damage output.

[lare2]

I've pretty much just settled on Bladegheists for Scarlet Doom and Grimghast for Emerald Host. 

Still working out which of those 2 subfactions I prefer. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by lare2

[Neck-Romantic]

GGR also still have their boosts and range on your opponents turn whereas BGR arent charging.

Still think theyre both great

[Frowny]

9 hours ago, aylien119 said:

 

BG

• BG have 1"range, 3 attacks on the charge, for a total of 15 attacks
•  

Or am I missing something?

Bladegeists come in units of 10, so should be 30 attacks.  Now obviously it can be hard to get all into contact, but that would adjust your math substantially, and makes the Bladegeists look a lot better. Still there is a reasonable tradeoff, with the reaped like corn pushing back toward the grimghasts along with the 2'' reach. 

[That Guy]

Update your apps guys and gals. Nighthaunt is LIVE. Enjoy some list making shenanigans.

Edited May 18, 2022 by That Guy

[lare2]

You know, I really don't get the app. So it's basically got everything you need on it to run NH... now... even before the book's released. 

Edit: Scratch that. The rules are locked. You can add things like artefacts but without the book you've no idea what they do. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by lare2

[That Guy]

6 minutes ago, lare2 said:

You know, I really don't get the app. So it's basically got everything you need on it to run NH... now... even before the book's released. 

Edit: Scratch that. The rules are locked. You can add things like artefacts but without the book you've no idea what they do. 

The media it is shared on has just become purely the app. We used to be able to see the warscrolls on the product page of a unit. I guess it was too much of a pain to manage for them. I don’t mind it, but yeah Warscrolls have been free since the beginning of AoS and it will hopefully not change in the future, i prefer our approach more than how it’s done in 40k. There you can only see the datasheets once you bought the codex. For us we need the battletomes for the lore, and all rules that are not warscrolls, but at least you can read warscrolls if you have any interest in an army and get a bit of an idea how it plays. Although…. I must be honest since 3rd edition makes warscrolls more bland and shifts all gameplay to traits and sub-factions, people can get less and less of a grasp on how these armies play. Eventually they might just as well lock it behind a paywall like in 40k.  

[Frowny]

What about something like this? Maximum MSU bladegheists to take advantage of the charge stuff, but with massive ability to spam CPS to keep them defensive/offensive as appropriate. This list is going for consistency and reliability above all else.

If desired, could drop a unit of bladegheists for more utility like spirit hosts or more hexwraiths. Just trying to start with the core of the idea and then can dilute it more. 

 

 - Army Faction: Nighthaunt
     - Subfaction: The Scarlet Doom
LEADERS
Lady Olynder (340)*
     - Spells: Soul Cage
Guardian of Souls (150)*
     - General
     - Spells: Shademist
Dreadblade Harrow (145)*
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
Dreadblade Harrow (145)*
     - Artefacts of Power: Pendant of the Fell Wind
BATTLELINE
Bladegheist Revenants (175)*
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)***
Bladegheist Revenants (175)***
Hexwraiths (160)***
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Warlord
 -  **Hunters of the Heartlands
 -  ***Hunters of the Heartlands
TOTAL POINTS: 1990/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

[Darkrich]

38 minutes ago, Frowny said:

CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Warlord
 -  **Hunters of the Heartlands
 -  ***Hunters of the Heartlands

Can only have one hunters of the heartland battalion

Edited May 18, 2022 by Darkrich
mistyped

[Frowny]

Ok. Maybe just a bunch of freestanding bladegeists or a warlord or something. What about the IDEA of the list? It's al theory for me at this point

[theophaniel]

2 hours ago, Frowny said:

***Hunters of the Heartlands

as @Darkrich said only one hunters, but you can fit the "Vanguard" Battalion, it is really good with us wanting the charge reroll.

[Arzalyn]

23 minutes ago, Frowny said:

Ok. Maybe just a bunch of freestanding bladegeists or a warlord or something. What about the IDEA of the list? It's al theory for me at this point

The idea could have some legs (strangely for ghosts, I know), but I have a feeling it is a super aggro list. You want to charge your opponent with as much as you can and destroy their units in one go, as in their turn the Bladegheist do less damage and are easy wiped out. In general, the tome plays much better at our own turn thanks to the WoF debuffs, while the opponent turn is more painful. We can use our recovery effects (torment, GoS) to try to hold during their turn, but those effects work better at units above MSU, simple because our 10 wounds MSU units are rather easy to kill. Maybe reinforcing one or two of your Bladegheist would help you have some more survivable units.

[Bayul]

27 minutes ago, Frowny said:

What about the IDEA of the list? It's al theory for me at this point

It was expected that people will spam Bladegheists when the rules for Scarlet Doom were leaked. Your idea is just a simple tactic.  You should rather develop a strategy for your army list to win games.

Which of your units are watching the your backline objective for example? 

[Neck-Romantic]

I really wish glavewraiths were cheap. We really need a cheap chaff that just fishes for WoT spam, camps objectives, holds enemy units in place while the elites cannonball around.

I know. Chainrasps. But theyve shoehorned them into a strange position if being quite aggro-y in huge numbers... and I just dont like the sculpt either. Or the fact they break the 4+ armor theme.

[Bayul]

7 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said:

I really wish glavewraiths were cheap. We really need a cheap chaff that just fishes for WoT spam, camps objectives, holds enemy units in place while the elites cannonball around.

I know. Chainrasps. But theyve shoehorned them into a strange position if being quite aggro-y in huge numbers... and I just dont like the sculpt either. Or the fact they break the 4+ armor theme.

But that isn't their intended role. They are a small unit of hunters, not chaff. I'd be okay with the price if their weapons would have Range 2" and -2 Rend, so their charges would be even more reliable and rewarding. 

[That Guy]

An attempt to a hero hammer build. Solid -1 to wound all across the board. A lot of units for WoT charges, so -1, -1 is not a strange occurrence here. Heroes are packed with rend. Solid source of CP from warlords and possibly kurdoss. Hexwraith and Dreadscythe tagteam(hexwraith impact can trigger Dreadscythe ability). Cruciator for additional -1 damage and Guardian for heals, soul cage to overpower units with the hero hammer. Lightshard for the first powerful engage. Spirit hosts will hang around the guardian /kurdoss.

Army Faction: Nighthaunt
    - Army Subfaction: The Emerald Host
    - Grand Strategy: Dominating Presence
    - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

LEADER
Lord Executioner (140)*
Lord Executioner (140)*
Cairn Wraith (115)*
    - Artefacts: Reaper of Sorrows
Kurdoss Valentian (210)**
Krulghast Cruciator (150)**
    - Artefacts: Lightshard of the Harvest Moon
Guardian of Souls (150)**
    - General
    - Command Traits: Master of Magic
    - Artefacts: Arcane Tome
    - Spells: Soul Cage

BATTLELINE
Spirit Hosts (125)*
Hexwraiths (160)**
Hexwraiths (160)**
1 x Chainrasps (220)***

ENDLESS SPELL
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)

OTHER
Dreadscythe Harridans (160)***
Dreadscythe Harridans (160)***

CORE BATTALIONS:
*Warlord
**Warlord
***Hunters of the Heartlands

TOTAL POINTS: (1950/2000)

Edited May 18, 2022 by That Guy

[Warbossironteef]

5 hours ago, Frowny said:

What about something like this? Maximum MSU bladegheists to take advantage of the charge stuff, but with massive ability to spam CPS to keep them defensive/offensive as appropriate. This list is going for consistency and reliability above all else.

If desired, could drop a unit of bladegheists for more utility like spirit hosts or more hexwraiths. Just trying to start with the core of the idea and then can dilute it more. 

 

 - Army Faction: Nighthaunt
     - Subfaction: The Scarlet Doom
LEADERS
Lady Olynder (340)*
     - Spells: Soul Cage
Guardian of Souls (150)*
     - General
     - Spells: Shademist
Dreadblade Harrow (145)*
     - Artefacts of Power: Arcane Tome
Dreadblade Harrow (145)*
     - Artefacts of Power: Pendant of the Fell Wind
BATTLELINE
Bladegheist Revenants (175)*
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)**
Bladegheist Revenants (175)***
Bladegheist Revenants (175)***
Hexwraiths (160)***
CORE BATTALIONS
 -  *Warlord
 -  **Hunters of the Heartlands
 -  ***Hunters of the Heartlands
TOTAL POINTS: 1990/2000
Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

I think people trying to playing aggro lists are sort of forgetting about an important AOS 3 tactic, the best aggro lists are typically 1 drop. 

It makes it difficult because the army enjoys MSU, but I think a "I charge you with a lot of dudes" list is best as a 1 drop. If you're not 1 drop, this list getting doubled, getting charged, would not perform very well. 

Just food for thought! 

[theophaniel]

I'm wondering if people have been able or see how the Krulghast Cruciator can work.

I mean, I look at the warscroll and see the -1 damage and think it's awsome.

But then I look about the requirements.

Within 12 of a terrified unit and wholly within 12 for the -1 dmg debuff.

=> This will only kick for 1 or maybe two units deathstaring, and if we get into combat. I feel like it's 150 points wasted in any heavy shooting match-up or

when we can be denied  being in combat. I know a lot of things can happen positionally for that to happen, sitting on an objective and getting close to chaff. But in a lot of case, the game being objective driven, I feel a spirit torment is superior in most of cases for 40 points less...

I'm not convinced. Am I wrong there ?

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by theophaniel

[Arzalyn]

2 hours ago, theophaniel said:

I'm wondering if people have been able or see how the Krulghast Cruciator can work.

I mean, I look at the warscroll and see the -1 damage and think it's awsome.

But then I look about the requirements.

Within 12 of a terrified unit and wholly within 12 for the -1 dmg debuff.

=> This will only kick for 1 or maybe two units deathstaring, and if we get into combat. I feel like it's 150 points wasted in any heavy shooting match-up or

when we can be denied  being in combat. I know a lot of things can happen positionally for that to happen, sitting on an objective and getting close to chaff. But in a lot of case, the game being objective driven, I feel a spirit torment is superior in most of cases for 40 points less...

I'm not convinced. Am I wrong there ?

 

Vs heavy shooting, yeah the Cruciator will not help as much, as you need to be in combat with the shooting unit or already in combat with a unit nearby the one you want to protect. The torment in this scenario is better, but he still need the unit you wanna heal to survive vs the shooting to return models to it. If you are going mostly MSU, the chance is that they will not survive if the shooting is strong.

The Cruciator is tech piece against melee units. Against those units, it help our units survive the combat so the Torment/GoS can heal it back. I tested it a good amount in games against Fyreslayers and Ironjawz and in those games the Cruciator did it job really well. Both the Cruciator and the Torment help make our units more survivable, they just act on different steps (reducing damage and recovering it respectively). The Torment is less situational in general, as long as can be sure your units can survive the shooting/combat for it to work.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Arzalyn