AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[Neck-Romantic]

Explain to us dummies without the book what the nuance for NH is with the new pile in? 😅

[leitbur711]

3 hours ago, Neck-Romantic said:

Explain to us dummies without the book what the nuance for NH is with the new pile in? 😅

In 2.0, you had to finish your pile-in move "at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move." In 3.0, you have to finish your pile-in move "no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move." So as I understand it, your front ranks are no longer locked in place when you're piling in, letting you more easily flow around the enemy unit, or in the case of flying units, do some crazy acrobatic shenanigans where you pile-in over the enemy unit... as long as your unit stays coherent.

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, leitbur711 said:

In 2.0, you had to finish your pile-in move "at least as close to the nearest enemy model as it was at the start of the move." In 3.0, you have to finish your pile-in move "no further from the nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move." So as I understand it, your front ranks are no longer locked in place when you're piling in, letting you more easily flow around the enemy unit, or in the case of flying units, do some crazy acrobatic shenanigans where you pile-in over the enemy unit... as long as your unit stays coherent.

Exactly this. For anyone without fly, when you move models they can't overlap or pass across any other model's base or the battlefield edge. They have to trace all curves, banks, and inclines as distance for that 3" move. But for us, since we can fly, we can ignore all that during pile in. Cohesion is easier to maintain and getting your champions in range is easier. And since it's "must finish the move no further from then nearest enemy unit than it was at the start of the move" you can jostle and resposition even if you're in base-to-base contact with the enemy. That used to lock you in before.

[CaptainSoup]

14 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

My friends and I had planned on playing a 1k game today, but it spontaneously turned into an escalation league event. Starting at 750 points we'll be adding 250 each game until 3k just to get a feel for the rules at each encounter size.

I played one game today at 750 with the following list:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Nighthaunt
- Procession: Emerald Host
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Krulghast Cruciator (120) in Battle Regiment
- General
- Command Trait: Ruler of the Spirit Hosts
- Artefact: Midnight Tome - Shademist

Battleline
10 x Grimghast Reapers (155) in Battle Regiment
10 x Grimghast Reapers (155) in Battle Regiment

Units
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (160) in Battle Regiment
10 x Dreadscythe Harridans (160) in Battle Regiment

Total: 750 / 750
Reinforced Units: 0 / 1
Allies: 0 / 100
Wounds: 46

• Emerald Host for the -1 Save. Put it on a Celestial Hurricanum and it paid dividends when I came to attack it. It took my opponent's advantage with one of the strongest units he could bring and brought it down it a manageable level
• I realize that by taking Emerald Host I don't get the RotSH command trait, but uh, don't worry. It didn't matter.
• Reapers were the heavy lifters, doing the majority of damage hands down
• Sleeper hit in the Harridans, though! Their persistent -1 to hit aura proved to be indispensable. Against a Cities of Sigmar army notorious for their multiple +hit and +wound sources, I often made my opponent swing at his warscroll profiles, negating the bonus he could grant. He had to start stacking them to eke out a +1, but that meant fewer resources on my attack
• KC didn't get to do anything this game. He was killed in the first turn. But despite that the warscroll change to Harridans and both unit types having champions meant that I could carry on without him. Imagine that, Nighthaunt is still capable of fighting without a hero nearby!
• Went all 5 turns. Battle Tactics and Grand Strategy ended up winning the game for me

Some takeaways:

• First, the smaller table size (we played 30x44) meant that a first turn fight was inevitable, and that was a good thing. The game got going right away, and choices felt way more impactful. You saw the results of a good or bad choice almost immediately. This includes my instant regret of putting my KC in harm's way before he was ready and losing him.
• Balance! Yes! Despite me misjudging measurements and getting my hero killed in the opening volley, and playing the entire rest of the game without a hero at all and no ward save, I still went toe-to-toe and came out the winner in the end. It literally went down to the last guys, my Reapers against his Freeguild greatswords, about 4 men each, the fact I got my Battle Tactics completed pretty reliably each round, and achieving my Grand Strat. I feel like I rolled fairly average, and that my opponent did, too.
• Unit champions and command abilities are so important now. Again, no hero, no ward save, no extra command points, no ranged...nothing. But the ability to reliably give my Reapers and Harridans All-out Attack made an incredible difference. It kept my opponent on the back foot, using his CP on All-out Defense or an allegiant CA. I felt like I was a vicious, relentless attacker the whole game, and that felt amazing.
• All the things you can do in your opponent's turn is a really nice way to catch them off guard. We were both used to not getting clocked for our choices in our own turn and it came as a shock when a unit Redeployed or Unleash Hell activated.
• Long live the new pile in rule.
• Can safely say this reignited the love of the game for my friends today. We got through two games, first were my friends and then a second where I took on the winner. Even going slowly, triple-checking the rules each phase, we were able to get through both in decent time. As we get faster and the army size increases, we can still probably get two in each time. This means we all get to play, which made everyone happy.

Always good to hear a Nighthaunt player having a good time with their army. I wonder if this will reflect on large games with the bigger table, or perhaps the game functions better, or feels more impactful sooner, in smaller <1001pt games. Something to ponder over as more games are played in the new edition.

I also looked and compared between the old and new pile-in rules. It's definitely a good QoL fix and I'm kind of surprised AoS 2nd edition has such a restriction in the first place.

Edited July 11, 2021 by CaptainSoup

[EnixLHQ]

55 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

I also looked and compared between the old and new pile-in rules. It's definitely a good QoL fix and I'm kind of surprised AoS 2nd edition has such a restriction in the first place.

My local group, for a long time, didn't play by 2nd Ed pile-in. We eventually switched when we started playing against more people so we could be fully compliant with rules, but it was such a stealth nerf we were constantly frustrated by it.

[EnixLHQ]

Came across this on reddit: 

 

[kweefchief]

Hey, been a long time admirer of Warhammer. Finally getting into AoS and starting a NH army.

I want to build my way towards a 1k army, eventually a 2k. I was wondering what might be some good units to purchase to fill out a 1k list?

So far I have:

-30 Chainrasps

-10 Grimghast Reapers

-4 Mynmourn Banshees

-1 Knight of Shrouds on Steed

-1 Spirit Torment

-1 Guardian of Souls

-1 Lord Executioner

[CaptainSoup]

3 hours ago, EnixLHQ said:

Came across this on reddit: 

 

Unless I'm mistaken, a warscroll identified as a behemoth is not a monster right? There seems to be this mixing up of phrases that's bugging me because Behemoth is a classification when creating battalions and Monster is the keyword given to a warscroll so they can take advantage of Monstrous Rampage and certain secondary objectives from the GHB. As far as I understand they are not the same thing. If it was then our Black Coach would be able to go on Rampages.

[EnixLHQ]

9 minutes ago, kweefchief said:

Hey, been a long time admirer of Warhammer. Finally getting into AoS and starting a NH army.

I want to build my way towards a 1k army, eventually a 2k. I was wondering what might be some good units to purchase to fill out a 1k list?

So far I have:

-30 Chainrasps

-10 Grimghast Reapers

-4 Mynmourn Banshees

-1 Knight of Shrouds on Steed

-1 Spirit Torment

-1 Guardian of Souls

-1 Lord Executioner

Can't go wrong with more Reapers. Like, ever.

I'm also a fan of the new Dreadscythe Harridans. Their new warscroll and a well-timed All-out Attack, Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed CA, or Knight of Shrouds on foot CA can really up their damage. Bladegheists are also a good pick if you like jumping around a lot with charges. They are more likely to get Wave of Terror from retreat/charge shenanigans.

9 minutes ago, CaptainSoup said:

Unless I'm mistaken, a warscroll identified as a behemoth is not a monster right? There seems to be this mixing up of phrases that's bugging me because Behemoth is a classification when creating battalions and Monster is the keyword given to a warscroll so they can take advantage of Monstrous Rampage and certain secondary objectives from the GHB. As far as I understand they are not the same thing. If it was then our Black Coach would be able to go on Rampages.

Behemoth and Monster are not interchangeable or mutually exclusive. A Behemoth is a role in battle for big things. Plenty of things are Behemoths without being monsters. Our Black Coach, the Celestial Hurricanum, Mortis Engine/Coven Throne, and others. Meanwhile a Monster is a unit type, a keyword on a warscroll. Usually Monsters are bigger and badder units offset with a degrading profile (though not always). A Monster can exist without being a Behemoth, but it's rare. For example, a hero under the effect of a Metamorphosis spell.

To simplify it:

• Behemoth - Any big unit that performs the role of Behemoth in battle. This role is determined by Pitched Profile.
• Monster - A big thing that is specifically a Monster on their warscroll. This is determined by the keyword on the warscroll.

[The_Dudemeister]

9 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

... and Monster is the keyword given to a warscroll ...

And now Monster is also a unit header for the Linebreaker and Battle Regiment Battalions for which you don't actually need Monsters but Behemoths. So the Black Coach who is a behemoth and not a monster is a monster for purpose of those battalions. 😵

[Neck-Romantic]

So all arguments and rules lawyering aside; how many people are likely going to house rule or check for TO house rules regarding this new unit coherency?

Right now anything with 32mm bases, units larger than 5 and no reach are just straight up penalized/liability in comparison. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[CaptainSoup]

1 hour ago, Neck-Romantic said:

So all arguments and rules lawyering aside; how many people are likely going to house rule or check for TO house rules regarding this new unit coherency?

Right now anything with 32mm bases, units larger than 5 and no reach are just straight up penalized/liability in comparison. 

And change it into what, exactly? Sure ideally it would be nice to go off of 40k rules (models within 1in horizontally 5in vertically followed by models within 1in of those models, effectively making first rank, second rank attacks) but that isn't going to happen. It sucks that larger based models are taking a hit here, but its a game wide rule that effects everyone.

For someone in my position where the idea of playing AoS in my local area is something that falls on deaf ears most of the time, I would rather not stir the pot so to speak by making things complicated when I already spent a lot of effort even getting someone to the table in the first place, but that's just the position I'm in. I'm fully resigned to the fact that when I play I'm statistically likely to lose anyway, so I'm not going to complicate things for everyone else. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by CaptainSoup

[Landohammer]

Ok guys. Played a 2 game casual tourney. List was Olynder, Spirit Torment, 20 Grim, 20 Grim, 20 Harridans, 10 Harridans, 10 Bladeghast, 10 chain rasps, and Lauka Vai as an ally.

 

vs Lumineth Realm lords

I felt good going into this game. LRL are a hard army but I have a lot of experience vs them and generally do well. But they really profited from 3rd edition. They outdropped me and gave me first turn. So i pushed on them hard. I grabbed all 3 objectives and deepstriked several units, but they all failed their charges.

On his turn he cast lambent light through a spell portal and power of hysh on 30 sentinels and insta-killed Lauka Vai with 16 mortals from like 30 inches away. He counter charged and killed my deepstrikers.

On my turn I deepstriked 20 Grims near his wardens, and scored a 10+ wave of terror charge into 10 wardens yay!. So here was my shot. However, because of Teclis, he had a 5+ Ward, and because of shining company he had -1 to hit, and because of Aetherquartz he had +1 save. He also popped all out defense. So my 38 attacks, rerolling everything did ONE WOUND to his wardens. I also charged bladegeist into his wardens that were fighting Olynder and they did much better leaving only a few wardens behind.

The rest of the game was sentinels and Tecnado killing me as I desperately tried to reach his lines. 16-25 Lumineth win

vs Mist Havn

I was scared of this list because it had Gotrek and Yndrasta (these guys are in every list it seems) and a lot of deepstrikers. However my opponent misplayed his big heroes by using them as objective campers early on rather than pushing them. He deepstriked behind my army (it was the Vice so long deployment which made screening difficult) with his dragon lord and Cold one cavalry. Cold ones failed but dragonlord made it and almost killed Lauka Vai on my objective!

I was able to recover and heal her, and pushed forward. I focused on killing the army around his unkillable characters and ended up only leaving Gotrek and Ynndrasta alive. With a 25-15 Nighthaunt win

 

Because the tourney was only two games, and because my VP scores were decent, I ended up placing 3rd out of 10 players. Here are some thoughts.

-All out defense, Finest Hour and mystic shield are big problems for us. I was constantly in situations where I just couldnt' kill even basic batteline units because they had 2+ or 3+ saves vs my Rend -1 attacks. This makes me want to focus on mortal wound generating units like Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts.

-Lumineth are bent. Not a surprise here but taking 18-34 mortals a turn from Teclis and Sentinels at crazy ranges is really hard to overcome. Shining company, wards, and aetherquartz are also problems. I always felt like Deepstrike charges were my only hope and those just fail too often to be a reliable tactic.

-There were 3 Gotreks and Ynndrastas at this event, with one set of them placing 2nd. I expect to see them continue to be popular until a nerf hits.

-Lauka Vai was fantastic at tanking scary units. Despite dying to Sentinels, she actually did well in some practice games prior to the tourney so I am gonna continue to use her. 

It was a fun event but I definitely felt like the underdog, even in my practice games.  

[EnixLHQ]

1 hour ago, Landohammer said:

On my turn I deepstriked 20 Grims near his wardens, and scored a 10+ wave of terror charge into 10 wardens yay!. So here was my shot. However, because of Teclis, he had a 5+ Ward, and because of shining company he had -1 to hit, and because of Aetherquartz he had +1 save. He also popped all out defense.

The max he could have gained is still +1 to save rolls. All-out Defense would have been a waste for them unless you had a -1 to Save against him somewhere. Same with Finest Hour. Was he saying he had +2 or +3 saves?

[Landohammer]

9 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

The max he could have gained is still +1 to save rolls. All-out Defense would have been a waste for them unless you had a -1 to Save against him somewhere. Same with Finest Hour. Was he saying he had +2 or +3 saves?

Yea the -1 to save was the Rend 1 on my Grimghast lol.

So aetherquartz and Rend 1 net to zero. So he can pop all out defense for +1 save to get back to a 3+. 

The cap on modifiers only really helps Rend 0 units. Since he would have capped out at 3+

 

 

[EnixLHQ]

33 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Yea the -1 to save was the Rend 1 on my Grimghast lol.

So aetherquartz and Rend 1 net to zero. So he can pop all out defense for +1 save to get back to a 3+. 

The cap on modifiers only really helps Rend 0 units. Since he would have capped out at 3+

 

 

Okay, just making sure I was following. That sounds rough. I was often in the same situation against Cities prior to 3.0. Things changed a bit, at least until the new shenanigans are figured out.

Looking back, what other units, artifacts, or spells do you think you could have brought to change the outcome?

[Landohammer]

27 minutes ago, EnixLHQ said:

Okay, just making sure I was following. That sounds rough. I was often in the same situation against Cities prior to 3.0. Things changed a bit, at least until the new shenanigans are figured out.

Looking back, what other units, artifacts, or spells do you think you could have brought to change the outcome?

My "go-to" list has been historically 30 hexwraiths , and I think they would have really helped me out here. but I swapped them out for Reapers due to the points disparity between the two now. The cost of two Reapers is about the same as a single Hexwraith. But the Hexwraith speed and mortals likely would have been more valuable vs Lumineth.

I actually really like how Harridans performed. They are now 16pts per model and a unit of 10 puts out a respectable amount of damage when buffed with all out attack. The two opponents I faced were primarily leader 7ish, so the -1 to was always active. 

I brought Pendant of the Fell Wind but note that with the way "normal" moves are classified now, it no longer stacks with runs or retreats. So perhaps its not the auto-include it use to be. 

Olynder was clutch just in her shear mortal wound output. I think she may have to be in every list going forward. I miscasted with her TWICE though. But even then, heroic recovery plus her Veil heal kept her alive a lot longer than I expected.

Lauka Vai was a solid ally for tanking units with lots of weak attacks, and she was always a good target for Mystic Shield and she was immensely useful to grab the battle tactic that requires a monster.  Also her warscroll spell is very strong vs Gotrek and Archaon since it can make them fail most any charge.

But at the end of the day, I don't think there is anything I could have done to beat LRL player other than roll 9+ on my deepstrike charges. They have the ranged damage and defensive buffs to counter us at every turn. 

 

 

[dmorley21]

@Landohammer

What was the scenario/setup in your game against LRL? I'm surprised with PotFW you weren't able to get at them with your non Undworlds troops. I've found that unless Teclis gets his aura spell off, the Lumineth castle is easy to chew through. 

Even with what you were up against with your Reapers, you should have ended up dealing 5-8 wounds on average. Dealing only one stinks! 

[EnixLHQ]

We can still do the mortal wound death ball of Spirit Hosts and a Spirit Torment. We can also use Emerald Host to get the Hexwraiths swinging for a few, too. The loss of Ruler of the Spirit Host might mean taking Mystic Tome Emerald Lifeswarm on the ST, or keeping a Black Coach nearby, but with the extra CPs and the KoSoES the Hexwraiths should reliably get additional rolls to fish with.

Add in some Oly and support units and you might have a good team.

[Landohammer]

 

15 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

@Landohammer

What was the scenario/setup in your game against LRL? I'm surprised with PotFW you weren't able to get at them with your non Undworlds troops. I've found that unless Teclis gets his aura spell off, the Lumineth castle is easy to chew through. 

Even with what you were up against with your Reapers, you should have ended up dealing 5-8 wounds on average. Dealing only one stinks! 

 

I think the scenario was something like "First Blood" which is essentially a corner deployment with 3 objectives on a diagonal line. The distance between us felt massive, and he also deployed as far back as he could. Even with a turn 1 eleven inch move I wasn't even close to a charge. The changes to fly and terrain also slows us down quite a bit. 

The old advantage of Pendant is that you could move 8+3+run. But now if you declare a run you LOSE the pendant bonus since its no longer a normal move. So if you roll a 1-2 you actually move less than 11 inches

Vs wardens with 5+ ward, shining company, all out defense and atherquartz, a unit of 20 Grimghast averages less than 3 wounds, depending on what the bell does (probably miss or get saved lol). So yea I was a bit unlucky but not that much lol. 

I understand that a unit with 4 buffs should be a tough nut to crack, but considering 3 of those buffs were automatic, and had no requirement other than him just saying "i get this", it was a bit frustrating. But I digress, since I don't wanna turn this into another LRL bash thread lol.

[dmorley21]

12 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

 

 

I think the scenario was something like "First Blood" which is essentially a corner deployment with 3 objectives on a diagonal line. The distance between us felt massive, and he also deployed as far back as he could. Even with a turn 1 eleven inch move I wasn't even close to a charge. The changes to fly and terrain also slows us down quite a bit. 

Vs wardens with 5+ ward, shining company, all out defense and atherquartz, a unit of 20 Grimghast averages less than 3 wounds, depending on what the bell does (probably miss or get saved lol). So yea I was a bit unlucky but not that much lol. 

Gotcha. That’s a tough one. I really miss the old cogs.

And I though you said you got WoT with the Reapers? That’s why I figured 5-8. Also, All Out Attack would have added some punch there - I’m guessing you used it elsewhere? 
 

Sturdy castles are definitely difficult to chew through, but glad you had some success in your second game. 

[Landohammer]

54 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

Gotcha. That’s a tough one. I really miss the old cogs.

And I though you said you got WoT with the Reapers? That’s why I figured 5-8. Also, All Out Attack would have added some punch there - I’m guessing you used it elsewhere? 
 

Sturdy castles are definitely difficult to chew through, but glad you had some success in your second game. 

He had total eclipse up so he basically shut down my command ability useage. I actually had 2 CP but I had to save it for Inspiring presence. He has the ability to bounce battleshock tests back on to you and I had done quite a bit of damage to another unit of wardens with Bladegheists. If I didn't save a CP he could have just picked a unit and wiped it out in the battleshock phase. 

So the decision was EITHER buff Grimghasts or save a unit from taking a -18 battleshock test lol.

Oh ok I gotcha. Yea unfortunately since I chose to activate the Bladeghiests, he got to swing on my Grimghasts before they got their normal activation, and so the Grimghasts were a bit depleted when they swung again. I may have killed 4 total between both activations.

Thanks. Yea its frustrating that castles are still a thing in a game about objectives.

 

[The_Dudemeister]

8 hours ago, Landohammer said:

I brought Pendant of the Fell Wind but note that with the way "normal" moves are classified now, it no longer stacks with runs or retreats. So perhaps its not the auto-include it use to be. 

Oops, played that wrong then in all of my 3rd ed games. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. Bummer!

On the other hand I haven't used my Hexwraiths' fly-over attack after retreating. I only checked that ability for my Tzeentch Screamers where it specifies normal move. But for Hexwraiths it doesn't, which is awesome.

[Neck-Romantic]

Are other armies having their elite units' squad size reduced?

Been thinking about what happened to Myrmourns and imo MSU reduces their effectiveness in groups of 4 to near uselessness.

Applying buffs to a unit of 4 vs 12 is a waste, and having several units of 4 allows for the enemy to strike back and potentially wipe them out.

On the opposite side of things; it makes things like Olynder's spell or a priest's curse (that we dont have) that affects all attacks made on an enemy unit from any source more useable.

A unit of 12 Myrmourns has always been one of the backbones of my army, and I was in the process of building up a second mass of them; any thoughts on how to utilize them now would be helpful

Edited July 13, 2021 by Neck-Romantic

[Ranzou]

No one will cry for 16 stalkers...