AoS 3rd - Idoneth Deepkin discussion

[Derek]

@Lithdaydora you are right.  Well shoot.  Guess I’ll have to remember that for today at this tournament.  Here’s hoping the list with a tide caster plays just as well.   And yea my opponent knew his list was not optimized,  he is an under dog player and likes to play with the not meta pick kind of lists.
 

i was stressing a little bit when I failed to really kill anything until we got to combats.  The mvp of the game though were the turtles and those scythed fin attacks, they’re so good 

[Derek]

So back from the tournament with the triple turtle nautilar list.   I don’t have a full turn by turn of every game but I can give you an over view of all my games.  
 

My list was :

akhelian king made to be the blender 

3 akhelian leviadons one with reverberating carapace 

1 akhelian allopex with harpoon launcher

 

 

game 1 was against nurgle fly spam.  
 

I took first turn moved up a little bit to try and get some shots off and then my opponent basically trapped me in my deployment zone for the rest of the game and took 4 turns to grind out a major victory leaving me at zero points for the game.  Solid player with what was most likely one of the toughest counters to my list since I couldn’t leverage my damage or my 2+ saves against all the mortals

 

game 2 was against clan moulder skaven list same as the list from my first game with this list last night.  Mission was first blood and I tabled him turn 3.  Lost my allopex turn 1 and then proceeded to blender his army for 2 turns and he scooped when he failed to do any damage to me.  
 

game 3:  big waagh warclans with no maw krusha’s.  List consisted of 1 unit of pigs 3 squads of 6 boltboyz. One unit of ardboyz one unit of 3 goregruntas 2 breakbosses on troggs and 2 squads of 10 savage orruks with spears.  Played tectonic interference.  He rolled crazy hot on those bolt boyz and did 8 mortal wounds every turn they shot my turtles and by the end of the game I had my akhelian king and my allopex left and I squeezed out the win because my king went murder bus on him and slaughtered everything he touched.   
 

overall feeling for the army is it has some potential. I was also playing with only 1915 points compared to my opponent’s.  I was enjoying the army though definitely felt good about my choices in the games except against nurgle fly spam as I have no real idea how the turtle list fights that.  

[Derek]

Hey all.  So I was looking at the rituals in the book and the one that effects low tide would that also effect units shooting via unleash hell or the units that shoot outside of the shooting phase?  Since it says units can’t be the target of a shooting attack unless each model is within 12 inches.  I’m leaning towards no but since unleash hell is a shooting attack I think it does work there too.  
 

edit:  never mind.  I was misreading unleash hell and got overly excited haha.  

Edited March 27, 2022 by Derek

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, Derek said:

So back from the tournament with the triple turtle nautilar list.   I don’t have a full turn by turn of every game but I can give you an over view of all my games.  
 

My list was :

akhelian king made to be the blender 

3 akhelian leviadons one with reverberating carapace 

1 akhelian allopex with harpoon launcher

 

 

game 1 was against nurgle fly spam.  
 

I took first turn moved up a little bit to try and get some shots off and then my opponent basically trapped me in my deployment zone for the rest of the game and took 4 turns to grind out a major victory leaving me at zero points for the game.  Solid player with what was most likely one of the toughest counters to my list since I couldn’t leverage my damage or my 2+ saves against all the mortals

 

game 2 was against clan moulder skaven list same as the list from my first game with this list last night.  Mission was first blood and I tabled him turn 3.  Lost my allopex turn 1 and then proceeded to blender his army for 2 turns and he scooped when he failed to do any damage to me.  
 

game 3:  big waagh warclans with no maw krusha’s.  List consisted of 1 unit of pigs 3 squads of 6 boltboyz. One unit of ardboyz one unit of 3 goregruntas 2 breakbosses on troggs and 2 squads of 10 savage orruks with spears.  Played tectonic interference.  He rolled crazy hot on those bolt boyz and did 8 mortal wounds every turn they shot my turtles and by the end of the game I had my akhelian king and my allopex left and I squeezed out the win because my king went murder bus on him and slaughtered everything he touched.   
 

overall feeling for the army is it has some potential. I was also playing with only 1915 points compared to my opponent’s.  I was enjoying the army though definitely felt good about my choices in the games except against nurgle fly spam as I have no real idea how the turtle list fights that.  

You could make 3 bases of Aetherwings using the various sea creatures. They are 65 points and would give you a unit to deny space ahead of your main force, and soak an initial shooting attack. 

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, Derek said:

Hey all.  So I was looking at the rituals in the book and the one that effects low tide would that also effect units shooting via unleash hell or the units that shoot outside of the shooting phase?  Since it says units can’t be the target of a shooting attack unless each model is within 12 inches.  I’m leaning towards no but since unleash hell is a shooting attack I think it does work there too.  
 

edit:  never mind.  I was misreading unleash hell and got overly excited haha.  

I believe you can block unleash hell from a different unit via forgotten nightmares. Park a unit outside 3" then charge the other unit. Even if within 6" if the parked unit is closer they can't shoot.

[Derek]

I can definitely pull in some aetherwings but I give up the triumph for them.   Definitely have to mess with the list and see if they would help.
 

im thinking that the triple turtle list is fine for a 1 day event but it won’t perform well in a GT so definitely going to be revisiting it for casual games and outside of that find another list that I can practice with.  

[DocKeule]

My tournament yesterday had very mixed results.

My list again:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Idoneth Deepkin
- Enclave: Ionrach
- Grand Strategy: Predator's Domain
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Akhelian King (250)*
- General
- Bladed Polearm
- Command Trait: Unstoppable Fury
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Mount Trait: Voidchill Darkness
Isharann Tidecaster (150)*
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon

Battleline
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
10 x Namarti Reavers (170)*
6 x Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (390)**
- Reinforced x 1

Units
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1
2 x Akhelian Allopexes (330)**
- Razorshell Harpoon
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
The Burning Head (20)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Hunters of the Heartlands

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 4

Mistake on my part: I thought the Tidecaster could use "Flaming Weapon" on the King but I read up a few days prior it has to be one of the caster's weapons. So this would only work giving the king the Arcane Tome.


 

Spoiler

First game was "Marking Territory" against SCE Dragons and the player is ranked 4th in Germany and 19th in Europe so I did not expect much of a chance. (Nice guy though. We live not too far from each other so we meet kind of regularly at tournaments.)

Spoiler

He played 3x 2 dragons (2 in reserve) and 1x 4 dragons + the hero. He outdropped me gave me the first turn. I took the two objectives for my battle tactic on my side and stayed behind hoping he would come closer. He did the same and rolled four ones on his breath attacks against 10 reavers.

Turn two he won the roll off and still gave me the initiative so I charged my king, two sharks and eels in two dragons on one flank and to sharks and brought 10 Reavers in to shoot. Having to run all sharks I did not make great use of my shooting. I used the King's ability on the left flank which resulted in total overkill. The eels didn't even get to swing. I also killed one dragon on the right between the Reavers shooting and the sharks in melee.

He than brought his reserve and got a few good rolls on the breath against the sharks on my right. The he charged his four dragons in my main flank and killed most eels, the king and a shark. On the right at least my remaining shark killed another dragon.

I won the roll-off for third but with very little left I did a few wound but not enough to kill anything. (I lost more wounds and  models just on "unleash hell" alone.) On his turn he just had to take the three remaining objectives for an instand win.

Match two was against Lumineth with two foxes and 30 bows. Battleplan was "Survival of the Fittest"

Spoiler

Spoiler

Now this was the only time the turn 1 ritual did anything for me denying at least his Sentinels shooting turn 1.

This was a pretty close game that I lost 24:25 in the end because my opponent managed to kill one of my preditor units with one of his while the hunter & play mechanic from the latest update wasn't in effect for this event yet which would have given me an extra point.

Other than that I just hate playing against Lumineth. In addition the the general issue of having little against mortal wounds they have so many mechanics that hinder the opposition that it just isn't any fun at all for me. There is a lot of over the top ****** that would have to be reined in by GW. Also the Foxes with they additional movement in every shooting phase 🙄Those to models alone forced me to keep almost half of my army close to the objectives while he was avoiding any close combat with them. At least I got to shoot one.

Third match was against KO and the battleplan was Savage Gains.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I outdropped him and gave him the first turn. The turn 1 ritual did nothing because with "fly high" he had no problem to get most of his army in 12". Luckily the 10 Reavers held for his whole shooting phase (with allout defense in addittion to the turn 1 cover). 

I took an objective back but did not manage to destroy his infantry unit due to a botched charge (even with a re-roll). 

He won the second ini-roll and shot a second unit of Revers and did some damage to one of the sharks. Luckily I shot the remains of the unit on the objetive I was holding so I could charge the eels into his objective (barely because he had halfed their movement).

I got the double turn in round three and that pretty much got me steamrolling for the remaining rounds. I tabled him at the bottom of round five winning 37:18 (I think). 

 

In the end I made 7th/12. @Sonnenspeer finished 11/12 and a third guy playing the old book (because he submitted hist list prior to the release) went 3rd. 

At the risk of repeating myself: I still cannot see where we suppedly got that much stronger with the new book. There a a few neat mechanics for sure but I still think with all the lost re-rolls and buffs on shooting and mounts and the point increases this is a wash at best.

That being said:
- The King is pretty much an auto include now. The fight first ability can be a nice boost. In the KO-Match when I was charging his big ship (with three units in it and another standing next) I was at 13 (!) attacks with his melee profiles. That was kind of crazy. 

- Not sure about the Tidecaster. I brought her mostly for a second ritual but that barely ever had any effect. 

- Same goes for the Reavers. In theory they could shoot several times but they would need a screen to protect them. In this case they WERE the screen most of the time and crumbled quickly.

- Sharks will probably become a staple in my lists for a while and I am going to paint up the fifth Allopex I still have laying around. But I would want a mobile screen to be able to move them up earlier so I don't have to decide between shooting or charging when they finally go forward. 

- My Morrsarr did OK but as expected they are very dependent on the charge and they don't like to be hit back.

- I also entertain the idea of using some (self built) Aetherwings just to stall and catch the bullets. 

 

[Derek]

@Liquidsteel you are correct.  And that is tricky and gonna be a big gotcha moment in a tournament.  So excited to frustrate my opponent with that.  

[Sonnenspeer]

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

In the end I made 7th/12. @Sonnenspeer finished 11/12 and a third guy playing the old book (because he submitted hist list prior to the release) went 3rd. 

Thank you for the report. Was a nice tournament after all. 

Remarkable from my side;

my Soulrender once survived the shooting of a half KO fleet 😄 

The look on the face of the OB player, when the King killed his 20 Mortek Guard 

Overall my list needed way more models. Every loss hurt too much. 

[Kitsumy]

3 hours ago, DocKeule said:

At the risk of repeating myself: I still cannot see where we suppedly got that much stronger with the new book. There a a few neat mechanics for sure but I still think with all the lost re-rolls and buffs on shooting and mounts and the point increases this is a wash at best

because we arent stronger, tome made us weaker, like was pretty obvious.

book is okish. but ovbiously weaker, enclaves dont do anything, magic lore is even worse and only 4 spells???, every aura gutted to not affect ranged or mounts, range shortened,tank eels deleted etc etc.

only thing better is king,lothan and maybe morsar.

only have to see channels games, in all 7 or so games 6 of them idk were totally stomped, only 1 was won by a litle in turn5 and against bonereapers lol.

 

aand 4 5 rounds tourneys with tome. no idk got a 4+ so far....

 

luckly people is starting to aknowledge it, and maybe on next general everything get points drops

Edited March 27, 2022 by Kitsumy

[Liquidsteel]

52 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

because we arent stronger, tome made us weaker, like was pretty obvious.

book is okish. but ovbiously weaker, enclaves dont do anything, magic lore is even worse and only 4 spells???, every aura gutted to not affect ranged or mounts, range shortened,tank eels deleted etc etc.

only thing better is king,lothan and maybe morsar.

only have to see channels games, in all 7 or so games 6 of them idk were totally stomped, only 1 was won by a litle in turn5 and against bonereapers lol.

 

aand 4 5 rounds tourneys with tome. no idk got a 4+ so far....

 

luckly people is starting to aknowledge it, and maybe on next general everything get points drops

I just went 3 - 1 - 1 at a 24 player 2 day event and could easily have won the last game, lost every priority and opponent made several critical rolls and as well as a number of 11+ charges.

The book is very solid.

Eels are still excellent.

 

[Derek]

Yea…. I went 2-1 yesterday with what people say is a terrible model and list build with 3 (Leviadon). I watched another deepkin player yesterday kill archaon with thralls….  The book is fine does it suck there aren’t a lot of rerolls and what not yea, definitely but it’s still good.     Just quit with the negativity,  find the positives in the book and there are alot of them.  

[Rachmani]

Eels will be one of the strong points once the dust settles. I‘m pretty sure of it. Ionrach Eels probably. 
The book just actually has enough depth that it’ll take a while til someone finds the really good build meaning how much of what and in what combination will be needed.

[mmimzie]

I think the changes made the army stronger.

That said I think the army has a much higher skill ceiling. 

Turn 3 is a knock out punch. That said we don't do SOOOO much damage with most of our units to win with jsut one turn of combat, like we used to be able when the first book dropped.  Instead you are now required to be active turn 1 and 2 to weaken the enemy so your turn 3 can finish the game.
 

@Derek I don't remember your list exactly, but I recommend reavers over the shark in your list. That and/or aether wings for objective control as mentioned previously. I think you need just a little more of a punch to help you clean up units with your turtles. From there the power of your turtles is the king buffing all 3 in turn 1 or 2 to get attack first, and all them chomping into the same units.  Alnernatively, thralls might also be great in your list givning you a back up hammer. So you either get more hammer by having reavers to help finish off whatever the turtles light up, or thralls that can come in later game, and maybe fill the space of a dead turtle on turn 3. 

 

@DocKeule I think your list might struggle to take advantage of Ionrach, take advantage of the king buff in turn 2, and have a powerful turn 3. Your list ask a lot of those 3 morrsarr, and the sharks activating i don't think will have enough of an impact activating early. My recommendations are to go one of a few ways with your list:

For all your list find a way to squeeze in 1 or 2 units of thralls. The thralls give you more garenteed gas in turn 3. 
I didn't sit and figure the points for below so forgive me. 

If you like sharks, which yours look quite nice by the way.
Fuethan with 1 shiver will work really well for you.  3 sharks  is worth a king buffing them in turn 1 or 2 along side the king and the morrsarr.  Dropping 1 shark should give you room to fit in 1 squad of thralls in your current list.  This way turn two you king buff the morrsarr, sharks, and then the king himself. Then in turn 3 your thralls will have gotten to that one key location or fight, and what ever is left of your sharks/morrsaar/king can come in and hopefully finish up the game. You may consider swaping a squad of reaver for ishlaen, more morrsarr, or thralls to help you zone alittle better. 

To stay in ironrach:
I recommend droping maybe 2 sharks and convert one reaver squad to thralls. This should give you space to take 2 more morrsarr, you can either have them in one unit or 2 seperate units. This gives you a second squad that can use Ionrach. As i've mentioned before the msu vs big squad is a tacktical choice.  If you don't have more morrsarr I'd say 6 ishlaen would be even better, they'd be a great unit to throw out first as they'll be more likely to come back home.  
Turn 1: this lets you alpha with ishlaen or morrsarr
Turn 2: Your fresh morrsarr unit, king, and sharks can swing into the same target. If your alpha squad still remains ionrach ability again will let your move them some where that should protect your turn 2 squad
Turn 3:  Your thralls can come into play.

Edited March 27, 2022 by mmimzie

[vinnyt]

8 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

only thing better is king,lothan and maybe morsar.

On 3/7/2022 at 7:17 PM, Kitsumy said:

. but is obvious everything besides thralls are worse in tome.yes even shark and reavers and worse

lmao ok so I guess it's thralls, king, lotann, and maybe morrsarr. I guess in a week or two you'll add some more stuff to that list. 

8 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

every aura gutted to not affect ranged or mounts

Leviadon effects reaver shooting. Lotann effects mounts. 

 

Deepkin is definitely a super high skill ceiling army and it's gonna take a while to work out all the kinks. Losing to stormcast dragons and lumineth (that you would have won under the current ruleset) seems like a pretty reasonable result for someone piloting a high-skill army 1 month after release. Ionrach is a very techy enclave and I'm not smart enough to pilot it. @mmimzie seems to have some good advice! I haven't even tried out the thrall builds yet since I'm having way too much fun gunboating people off the table. 

My preferred list right now is: Nautilar

King, unstoppable fury, voidchill, arcane tome

Lotann

20 reavers

10 thralls

Ancient leviadon

2x2 sharks with harpoons

 

I've been finding a lot of success leaning heavily into shooting, with multiple hammers available to clean up afterwards. 20 reavers, 4 sharks, and a leviadon are about 44 "reaver equivalents", which is quite a bit. It forces opponents to really push to engage you, while the turtle, sharks, and king can all handle themselves pretty well in combat. So far I've really only struggled against a 4 Mega Garg list, and that really came down to some bad dice rolls in the end. This is a book that rewards reps and learning the army inside and out. It's not a point and click sort of tome. 

[Liquidsteel]

5 hours ago, vinnyt said:

lmao ok so I guess it's thralls, king, lotann, and maybe morrsarr. I guess in a week or two you'll add some more stuff to that list. 

Leviadon effects reaver shooting. Lotann effects mounts. 

 

Deepkin is definitely a super high skill ceiling army and it's gonna take a while to work out all the kinks. Losing to stormcast dragons and lumineth (that you would have won under the current ruleset) seems like a pretty reasonable result for someone piloting a high-skill army 1 month after release. Ionrach is a very techy enclave and I'm not smart enough to pilot it. @mmimzie seems to have some good advice! I haven't even tried out the thrall builds yet since I'm having way too much fun gunboating people off the table. 

My preferred list right now is: Nautilar

King, unstoppable fury, voidchill, arcane tome

Lotann

20 reavers

10 thralls

Ancient leviadon

2x2 sharks with harpoons

 

I've been finding a lot of success leaning heavily into shooting, with multiple hammers available to clean up afterwards. 20 reavers, 4 sharks, and a leviadon are about 44 "reaver equivalents", which is quite a bit. It forces opponents to really push to engage you, while the turtle, sharks, and king can all handle themselves pretty well in combat. So far I've really only struggled against a 4 Mega Garg list, and that really came down to some bad dice rolls in the end. This is a book that rewards reps and learning the army inside and out. It's not a point and click sort of tome. 

This is the list I used the week the book dropped. Super defensive then move out when ready. I don't think it needs any tweaking, though it would be nice to find some points for another unit of Thralls or even Aetherwings to screen and take initial board control.

I will revisit this list for sure, though for now I'm experimenting with Eels to try and see what works best for them.

 

[DocKeule]

10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I think your list might struggle to take advantage of Ionrach, take advantage of the king buff in turn 2, and have a powerful turn 3. Your list ask a lot of those 3 morrsarr, and the sharks activating i don't think will have enough of an impact activating early

I had one unit of six Morrsarr in my list. The way I see it, being able to retreat and charge again with them in round two and three is the main use for the Ionrach heroic action. (Maybe a run and charge in the first round if there is a good target.) 
 

10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

For all your list find a way to squeeze in 1 or 2 units of thralls. The thralls give you more garenteed gas in turn 3. 
I didn't sit and figure the points for below so forgive me. 

Probably if they survive long enough that is because they will be screening most of the time. In my TTS league-list I have 3 x 10 Thralls. We will see if that works better. 

Also running the same list and just replacing the Reavers with Thralls and getting two units of Aetherwings for the spare points might be an idea worth trying.
 

10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

If you like sharks, which yours look quite nice by the way.
Fuethan with 1 shiver will work really well for you.  3 sharks  is worth a king buffing them in turn 1 or 2 along side the king and the morrsarr.  Dropping 1 shark should give you room to fit in 1 squad of thralls in your current list.  This way turn two you king buff the morrsarr, sharks, and then the king himself. Then in turn 3 your thralls will have gotten to that one key location or fight, and what ever is left of your sharks/morrsaar/king can come in and hopefully finish up the game. You may consider swaping a squad of reaver for ishlaen, more morrsarr, or thralls to help you zone alittle better.

Thanks.

Problem with the Bloodthirsty Shiver is that is is a formation and not a unit of three single sharks. So you cannot activate the all together. That is why I think you get more of units of two or (if you play Fuethan) maybe even a trio.

I can't see a spot for Ishlaen right now (which makes me sad because they have been my MVPs during most of 2nd edition). With allout defense and cover and/or probably mystic shield and or garrison Thralls are just as tanky (if not more) for much fewer points. 

But yes, I don't think Reavers (at least that many) are the way to go for competitive lists.
 

11 hours ago, mmimzie said:

I recommend droping maybe 2 sharks and convert one reaver squad to thralls. This should give you space to take 2 more morrsarr, you can either have them in one unit or 2 seperate units.

More than one unit of Morrsarr brings the problem that you can only retreat and charge one in all round but the 4th. And without the charge sharks give you a better bang for your buck.

[Liquidsteel]

In case people wondered, here's the average damage for each unit.

This is assuming 6 eels vs 2 sharks, obviously there is a 60 point difference here, which means for each 2 sharks vs 6 eels you can potentially snag a unit of Aetherwings, unless sticking to 1 drop is the goal. Eels also have 8 more wounds.

The shark damage includes the shooting.

Anyway as you can see, the damage is quite close overall. The changes to the bites actually makes Ishlaenn still pretty good, outdamaging the Sharks on average. I definitely found in my games that the bites are the main damage source even for the Morrsarr, 18 attacks rend 1 D3 damage is really good.

The Eels do more damage on average (unless Morrsarr don't charge), but the Sharks offer flexibility in that a portion of their damage happens in the shooting phase, which has a wealth of benefits of its own (can spread damage, can do it from 24" so no threat of being hit back, forces extra CP usage from the opponent). It does also mean that in order to maximise the damage, the Sharks require double the CP, which we can look at next to see how the units scale.

First is +1 to hit, second will be +1 to hit and wound (assuming Lotann or the Triumph). I will only do the Wound bonus for the Shark melee damage.

+1

+1/+1

 

Not making any massive conclusions from this, other than that Ishlaenn are still okay damage wise. I could see an argument for slamming them in to something nasty early and having them on a 3+ unrendable save, surviving, and forcing that big bad unit to spend a turn or maybe even 2 if you get lucky, whilst still potentially knocking a few wounds off each round. Bonus points if you chipped a few wounds off via shooting also, which they then can't heal off with Heroic Recovery, or something. 

Considering how unpopular they are, maybe they'll get knocked down 10-15 points in a future balance pass and will then become rather more attractive, maybe. As out and out screens I don't think they're worth it though, 4+ save still a bit too swingy for 195 points, which could be Reavers that can pop some shots off at range whilst sitting pretty, or Thralls + Aetherwings.

[vinnyt]

44 minutes ago, Liquidsteel said:

Sharks offer flexibility in that a portion of their damage happens in the shooting phase, which has a wealth of benefits of its own

This is huge, IMO. I also like how sharks can take 7 wounds and still fly around operating at maximum capacity. 

It can be difficult to maximize eel frontage to get all of them engaged if you're taking 6-man units, which is kind of annoying.

That being said, I'm impressed with the ishlaen damage- will have to try them out one of these days. I've always been pretty frustrated by morsarr. Always seems like they charge in, do some decent but not outstanding damage, and then die in my opponent's turn. 

This sort of comparison is also why I really like the points efficiency metric (number of points spent per wound caused- lower is better). This is for the unbuffed profiles. 

Sharks Combined: 39.4, 27.75, 21.4, 17.4, 15.7

Ishlaen: 47.85, 31.9, 23.9, 19.14, 15.95

Morrsarr Charging: 35.1, 24.84, 19.2, 15.67, 14.15

Morrsarr NOT Charging: 61.9, 39.27, 28.76, 22.69, 18.74

 

So really, if you look at this, sharks are more EFFICIENT damage dealers than eels (except for the charging morrsarr). It's pretty close though. 

2 hours ago, DocKeule said:

But yes, I don't think Reavers (at least that many) are the way to go for competitive lists.

I think 20 reavers is a super reasonable inclusion for competitive lists. Those little fellas do SO MUCH damage and punish charges like you wouldn't believe. No AoD in the charge phase means that stuff with a 3+ save charging into them takes roughly 9 wounds from the stand and shoot, and that's without a turtle buff. With the turtle buff, you're looking at more like 11. As a turn 1 castle, alpha strikes are really going to struggle to blast through the 3+*/5+ saves after eating the unleash hell, and if there's no deep alpha strike, getting a full round of shooting out of them is extremely good. I use them pretty darn aggressively (should probably walk that back a bit), but I usually get 2 full rounds of shooting, plus an unleash hell, before they die. At that point they've caused some serious damage. They're also great for holding backfield objectives, since you otherwise want to be pushing up with a lot of your army, and can be super helpful into matchups like nurgle or SCE dragons, since touching them in combat means eating mortal wounds/unleash hell. 

[Liquidsteel]

10 minutes ago, vinnyt said:

This sort of comparison is also why I really like the points efficiency metric (number of points spent per wound caused- lower is better). This is for the unbuffed profiles. 

Sharks Combined: 39.4, 27.75, 21.4, 17.4, 15.7

Ishlaen: 47.85, 31.9, 23.9, 19.14, 15.95

Morrsarr Charging: 35.1, 24.84, 19.2, 15.67, 14.15

Morrsarr NOT Charging: 61.9, 39.27, 28.76, 22.69, 18.74

 

Yeah, I actually did a further comparison with 18 Eels vs 7 Sharks, where you only have a 15 point difference, but left it out as was already enough images.

Obviously something to note is that the 18 eels have 72 Wounds, compared to the Sharks 56. Nevertheless, 3 eels getting wiped to the wound still leaves 1 shark on 4 remaining and still carrying 50% output.

Getting 6 Morrsarr in is tricky but not impossible, if you can get the frontage you can do 2x3 facing inwards to maintain coherency. But yes it's not ideal and this coherency stuff is such a pain.

The 6 Morrsarr were probably the MVP's of my tournament, along with the King, truth be told. They took down several Stonehorns with ease and also took out 21 wounds of Boarboyz that had a 4+ Ward. Once you get them on 2s and 2s it's crazy. 

[Rachmani]

I‘m not sure eels & sharks really compete with each other, but rather they accompany each other nicely.

You obviously don’t want more than one unit of morsarr. Same probably goes for Ishlann. But some sharks in between sound not only good but very good.

Likewise, an army that focusses ob thralls might want something more flexible than 6 morsarr. Sharks are just incredibly flexible and can fit in almost every build.

[Liquidsteel]

For sure, it's just good to know the details.

There's also nothing wrong with more than 1 unit of Morrsarr; yes the Ionrach action is limited to one unit, but everyone gets run/retreat and charge turn 2/4 anyway, and having two units means you can send one in early and still have the King and another unit ready to follow up the next turn.

I ran a 6 and a 3 and seriously consider 6/3/3 or even 6/6.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Liquidsteel

[That Guy]

In all honesty, Ishlaen have never been bad and they still aren't. The thing is, defensive gameplay isn't our gameplan, it never has been. You took Ishlaen for cost efficient objective holders. Sure turtle will still be tanky and so will the ishlaen. It's just that our wincondition shifted even more towards crippling opponent armies and decide the game at round 3. We do not play for late game, we lose at late game, unless we can just keep running towards far away objectives. Because of these reasons, Morrsarr and Sharks are more popular. With sharks you have staying power through wounds, while always having output, be it in or out of combat. The Morrsarr Guard are reliable to get the charge of, we are super fast, if not the fastest. As you can see above, while Ishlaen indeed do pack the punch, they do not pack as much of a punch compared to the Morrsarr. The Morrsarr are made to cripple. They are your 2nd turn torpedo. While sharks and all the other stuff will be your turn 3 objective contesters and final blows. They will survive and finish it. It's still early into the new book, but as we see on paper, Thralls are the most amazing unit we have. Fully supported and an absolute powerhouse, but yet people seem to be dissappointed in this thread, yet people like their eels, and sharks and kings more. Why is that? It's because Thralls don't play the Cripple into the sweep game as well early on in our Tides as the faster units do. Thralls play around staying power and explosive engages. They need to have initiative or if not, be around a boat. It's a much harder and more difficult to pull off strategy and depending on how your opponent plays around you, could very well go into turns 4-5. I am not writing the Namarti playstyle off, in fact i'm experimenting with it as much as I play Fuethan. It just plays way more into what Khorne(poor poor chaps) wants to be compared to what our most succesful gameplay has been so far. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by That Guy

[Rachmani]

Good observations! 

I on the other hand haven’t figured out how i could possibly field king, morsarr, ishlann, sharks, aspect of the storm, sharks & a turtle in one list.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Rachmani

[Derek]

@Rachmani  like this.   
 

Army Faction: Idoneth Deepkin
    - Army Subfaction: Fuethán

LEADER

Akhelian King (250)

Eidolon of Mathlann Aspect of the Storm (355)

BATTLELINE

Akhelian Allopexes (165)

Akhelian Allopexes (165)

Akhelian Allopexes (165)

BEHEMOTH

Akhelian Leviadon (500)

OTHER

Akhelian Morrsarr Guard (195)

Akhelian Ishlaen Guard (195)

TOTAL POINTS: (1990/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App