AoS3 - Lumineth Realm-lords Discussion

[Maogrim]

On 11/11/2021 at 10:28 AM, Tizianolol said:

Guys I have a question about Alarith , spirit of the mounain. Warscroll says he can use a command ability.  He can only usa his Warscroll CA or he can use like redoply or all out attack too? Thx a lot!

I'd assume that the regular Spirit of the Mountain can't give out any commands except the one on his warscroll since he is not one of the model types that can give out orders: unit champion, hero, totem. 

Avalenor on the other hand can; in addition to being a monster he's also a hero.

[whispersofblood]

On 11/12/2021 at 9:23 AM, SugarWaterPurple said:

What is everyone's opinion on Sentinels? I usually have AOS stuff on youtube in the background when I paint and I continually see people complain about them being broken (no LOS/30" range, 5+/6+ MW).  I am relatively new to AOS, but I find that when I don't field a lot of Sentinels, I get wrecked immediately.

I expect when the nerf comes LRL will fall off a cliff. So unless you just love piloting the army I'd suggest making them a hobby project. I've been trying for months to come up with something that works to no avail. GW doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to the amount of rage sentinels seem to cause. 

[SugarWaterPurple]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

I expect when the nerf comes LRL will fall off a cliff. So unless you just love piloting the army I'd suggest making them a hobby project. I've been trying for months to come up with something that works to no avail. GW doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to the amount of rage sentinels seem to cause. 

What do you think they will do? Based on the complaints, people prefer a points hike. However, if you increase the points their output won’t be all that great. 

Edited November 13, 2021 by SugarWaterPurple

[whispersofblood]

9 hours ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

What do you think they will do? Based on the complaints, people prefer a points hike. However, if you increase the points their output won’t be all that great. 

Points will go up meaning that the list will just have less support. Some people are talking about 50 points but even 30 points basically means you can't play LRL competitively. And, as your own experience shows its basically impossible to play casual LRL. 

[Icarion]

11 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Points will go up meaning that the list will just have less support. Some people are talking about 50 points but even 30 points basically means you can't play LRL competitively. And, as your own experience shows its basically impossible to play casual LRL. 

I don't think you really know what you are talking about mate. "basically impossible to play casual" is pure ******. 

80% my games in 3.0 has been against Hedonites with my LRL, which is an army widely panned as being in a bad spot currently. However, all of my games have been close, 5 turn affairs. None of these games have been competitive minded, and they have all been a blast for me any my opponent. The win rate is about 50/50 between us.

Maybe you just don't know how to run fun lists that don't hinge on winning to make the game enjoyable? There are a ton of interesting LRL builds out there, but few people bother to try them because they bank their own enjoyment of the game on winning as fast as possible over making the game a dynamic affair for both players.

For instance, the last game I played, the mission we rolled was such a bad matchup for our two armies, that we realized no matter what, if my opponent took the first turn in the roll off there would be no realistic way for me win, so opting for a close game over a faceroll, my opponent decided to give me the first turn instead.

Find people like that to play with, and try fun lists over optimized ones. Prioritize cool gaming moments as a metric for what makes a good game over winning in the end and you'll find lots of "bad" or "top tier" armies can play casually just fine.

[whispersofblood]

6 hours ago, Athrawes said:

I don't think you really know what you are talking about mate. "basically impossible to play casual" is pure ******. 

80% my games in 3.0 has been against Hedonites with my LRL, which is an army widely panned as being in a bad spot currently. However, all of my games have been close, 5 turn affairs. None of these games have been competitive minded, and they have all been a blast for me any my opponent. The win rate is about 50/50 between us.

Maybe you just don't know how to run fun lists that don't hinge on winning to make the game enjoyable? There are a ton of interesting LRL builds out there, but few people bother to try them because they bank their own enjoyment of the game on winning as fast as possible over making the game a dynamic affair for both players.

For instance, the last game I played, the mission we rolled was such a bad matchup for our two armies, that we realized no matter what, if my opponent took the first turn in the roll off there would be no realistic way for me win, so opting for a close game over a faceroll, my opponent decided to give me the first turn instead.

Find people like that to play with, and try fun lists over optimized ones. Prioritize cool gaming moments as a metric for what makes a good game over winning in the end and you'll find lots of "bad" or "top tier" armies can play casually just fine.

Hedonites are rubbish... so if you are 50/50 against a rubbish faction... the implication would be LRL are what? Interesting and viable are not equivalent, 2 mountain spirits are interesting, but there aren't viable for a variety of reasons. You understand by your own admission the bolded means you are wrong right? You can't play an ordinary battleplan, following the ordinary rules of the game and not get run over. 

Typically what I find fun is being able to have a reasonable chance of executing the strategy I had devised at list construction. Maybe we have different versions of what casual means, but in the circles I move in any comparison to HoS means the army is dead on arrival. I'm quite good at list construction and I'm able to build up or down to meet an objective target, I've found similarly to yourself as your own anecdote demonstrates as soon as take the foot off the peddle even slightly the army collapses.

Edited November 15, 2021 by whispersofblood

[Icarion]

56 minutes ago, whispersofblood said:

Hedonites are rubbish... so if you are 50/50 against a rubbish faction... the implication would be LRL are what? Interesting and viable are not equivalent, 2 mountain spirits are interesting, but there aren't viable for a variety of reasons. You understand by your own admission the bolded means you are wrong right? You can't play an ordinary battleplan, following the ordinary rules of the game and not get run over. 

Typically what I find fun is being able to have a reasonable chance of executing the strategy I had devised at list construction. Maybe we have different versions of what casual means, but in the circles I move in any comparison to HoS means the army is dead on arrival. I'm quite good at list construction and I'm able to build up or down to meet an objective target, I've found similarly to yourself as your own anecdote demonstrates as soon as take the foot off the peddle even slightly the army collapses.

I'm not sure how a 50% win rate in casual games with a buddy means dead on arrival for casual play, or proves that the armies viability has "collapsed". I thought the point of casual games was to have a chill time with a friend playing a game where both people have fun. 50/50 games with one of the weakest armies, while also being able to pull off wins against different opponents playing top tier factions sounds like LRL have a tremendous range of viability to play against all sorts of factions and players at varying levels.

If your qualifier for a fun game is one where you win, sure LRL might act they way you describe, but if your goal is to have close, back and forth games, pretty much everything in the battletome is viable and can be made to work. People who don't focus on winning and instead try to create cool moments and memorable battles find so much more enjoyment in this game. 

As others on this board have endlessly pointed out LRL can easily be tailored to become obsessively powerful against most lists and armies, so that fact that it can also be toned down to meet parity with one of the weakest armies should be viewed as a great sign that the army has viability in casual play. 

A 50% win rate with your army should be what everyone outside of the tournament/competative crowd strives for, and yet you dismiss it as a sign of an army collapsing in "casual play." 

Also describing yourself as "quitegood" at list construction, doesn't really sound like something someone thinking about casual play would say.

You seem way too focused on winning at the end of the match to enjoy the army and the game in general, what you describe as "casual play" sounds like playing with netlisting tournament crowds and sounds antithetical to what I feel most would consider casual.

Honestly, anyone who thinks a fun list that regularly plays five battleround games with a 50% win rate counts as "army collapsing" isn't someone who sounds particularly fun to play against. In my group, a 50% winrate for an army is the most desirable goal.  That doesn't mean an armies viability has fallen apart, but rather that it can find an equilibrium with other players armies in the community and that every game you play can be close with both players standing a reasonable chance to win.

I'd always rather lose a close game, than win via steamrolling my opponent.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Athrawes

[whispersofblood]

That isn't the nature of the game though... Again look at your own anecdote. By your admission you would have been run over in a one-sided fashion under the ordinary rules of the game. That's a glaring red flashing sign that something has gone terriblely wrong.

I've also not said anything about winning, so you are arguing against yourself on that one. If you can quote me saying so please do, but I don't evaluate the sorts of opinions on things with as fine a margin as winning. It's a terrible metric, the goal of playing these games is ultimately the pursuit of fun.

Winning a match isn't just the natural consequence of "power". It's just the result both participants are pursuing with their chosen forces. There will be a winner, the question is can one army do the basic things the game asks better than the other. 

I've seen your battle reports, I commend you on having fun on the game board and paint board, it's your hobby to enjoy. They are however very much a game between two people who take the models they want and don't want to think to deeply about it. And that is 100% cool if that's what you enjoy and have access to.

But that's not my experience of Warhammer nor has it ever been, so what works for you works for you. But the message I responded to was a player who isn't having fun and gets run over when he takes his foot off the gas. And, is very likely playing against factions significantly more competent than a universally panned Hedonites of Slaanesh. 

Almost every book has the breadth of room to cycle down it's "level" so to speak. I'm of the opinion that LRL cannot do that as they don't have the ability to fight ordinary combats that tend to predominantly appear in casual settings. When I mentioned my ability to write lists it was the ability to understand what the context the list will play in. Competitive, casual, built to lose, built to teach, etc etc. 

Lastly I'd like to give you a warning. HoS are likely to see points decreases in December. LRL are likely to see the opposite. So your carefully curated 50/50 win rate will soon be upset as you lose a unit in your force and your friend/opponent gains 1.

Edited November 15, 2021 by whispersofblood

[Maogrim]

Esteemed brethren, let's try to keep the brilliant realm's peace here. It's hard enough on these forums as it is with all these fanatical Chaos Dwarf lovers, Skaven fans and worshippers of Nagash who are all united by only one common goal: Hating us Lumineth players. 

I very much think you both have fair points. I personally think (or hope) that the army is broad and diverse enough that it should not fall off a cliff as soon as Sentinels become more expensive. But it is a finely tuned machine with considerably less raw power options than other armies.

It does sound to me that @whispersofblood comes from a more competitive background and generally plays in an environment where taking 'weaker' options is punished swiftly and brutally. At the same time @Athrawes 's games seem to focus a little more on the hobby side with a lot of emphasis on the 'rule of cool'. So anyone taking quicker and less elaborated advise (like the one on more expansive Sentinels) would be best served to know where their advisor's emphasis lies.

[SugarWaterPurple]

8 hours ago, Maogrim said:

Esteemed brethren, let's try to keep the brilliant realm's peace here. It's hard enough on these forums as it is with all these fanatical Chaos Dwarf lovers, Skaven fans and worshippers of Nagash who are all united by only one common goal: Hating us Lumineth players. 

I very much think you both have fair points. I personally think (or hope) that the army is broad and diverse enough that it should not fall off a cliff as soon as Sentinels become more expensive. But it is a finely tuned machine with considerably less raw power options than other armies.

It does sound to me that @whispersofblood comes from a more competitive background and generally plays in an environment where taking 'weaker' options is punished swiftly and brutally. At the same time @Athrawes 's games seem to focus a little more on the hobby side with a lot of emphasis on the 'rule of cool'. So anyone taking quicker and less elaborated advise (like the one on more expansive Sentinels) would be best served to know where their advisor's emphasis lies.

Say there is a points increase for Sentinels; what would be the alternative choice?  I tried just taking 10 Sentinels once just do see what it was like and I got absolutely demolished.  I also tried to substitute with starshard's as well and they didn't really make much of an impact.  Mind you I am saying all this as a casual player and my strategy may not be all that savvy.

[woolf]

1 hour ago, SugarWaterPurple said:

Say there is a points increase for Sentinels; what would be the alternative choice?  I tried just taking 10 Sentinels once just do see what it was like and I got absolutely demolished.  I also tried to substitute with starshard's as well and they didn't really make much of an impact.  Mind you I am saying all this as a casual player and my strategy may not be all that savvy.

probably just live through the cycle as 1) Sentinels go up -> army falls apart competitively -> 2) something else (eg wardens) drop -> we get back in business 

or... the river temple drops with some new broken (*cough SCE dragons-ish) unit taking the limelight of complaints as always happens in this game 🤷‍♂️

just look at OBR with petrifex and the Catapults that were super toxic when it came and now no one cares about really (although petrifex is basically restored to what it was before they nerfed it with reducing rend across the army)

as far as causual play goes though I wouldn't be too worried as the game is pretty easy to balance between friends through list building, points handicap etc at least to the point that the built in randomness with double turn (and dice rolls in general) level the game out enough to be winnable by both players and not too one sided

[boyadventurer]

Any tips on getting off the high cast spells without Teclis? My buddies and I are switching to 1500 for now so we can squeeze in more games, but it's hard to get anything going reliably in the first turn (after T1, I can at least get Protection off with a thinking Scinari).

Am I missing anything basic beyond burning an aetherquartz to reroll, the shrine reroll, and twinstones? I get a fair share of bad rolls + facing a lot of tzeentch too, so it's hard enough to even get off CV5s, let alone something like Prot or Eclipse. Maybe rebuilding around Zaitrec?

Edited November 20, 2021 by boyadventurer

[Ithaqua1983]

What do you think about this mixed list? Big vanari center ando alaementari sides support with aelementari mages and thé two spirits. Tons of command points buffs with Illiatha and thriumphs.

Allegiance: Lumineth Realm Lords
- Great Nation: Iliatha
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: Inspired
Alarith Stonemage (130)*
- Lore of the High Peaks: Voice of the Mountain
Hurakan Windmage (120)*
- Lore of the Winds: Calming Zephyr
Sevireth, Lord of the Seventh Wind (345)
Vanari Lord Regent (155)*
- General
- Command Trait: Skilled Leader
- Artefact: Simulacra Amulet
- Universal Spell Lore: Flaming Weapon
10 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (145)*
- Lore of Hysh: Lambent Light
10 x Vanari Auralan Wardens (145)*
- Lore of Hysh: Protection of Hysh
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (150)*
- Lore of Hysh: Total Eclipse
10 x Vanari Auralan Sentinels (150)*
- Lore of Hysh: Solar Flare
5 x Hurakan Windchargers (155)
5 x Alarith Stoneguard (120)
- Diamondpick Hammers
Alarith Spirit of the Mountain (375)
*Warlord
Artefact

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
Drops: 11
 

 

[Howdyhedberg]

Last time I played, I gave my brother the wardens+sentinels army.

My wood elves CoS army had no chance after a lucky round with the sentinels.

Any CoS army is pretty casual though so I knew what was going to a happen.

I see no problem if they raise the points for sentinels, but if they ain't lucky, then I don't find them that worth to be honest...

 

[Howdyhedberg]

Seems like we didn't get hit hard by the nerfhammer.

Sentinels up, rest down?

 

[chosen_of_khaine]

4 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

Seems like we didn't get hit hard by the nerfhammer.

Sentinels up, rest down?

 

Yeah, I'm especially shocked Spirits of the Wind still can move 12" in your opponent's shooting phase.

Overall, adds 60-80 points to competitive lists, which will bring them down a peg, but in casual games people will still be whining...

[Maogrim]

Happy to see the Avalenor and the Spirits of the Mountain went down a little too! Hail Ymetrica's lofty peaks! 🏔🐂🌞

[Tizianolol]

 HelonCTRL.pdf   guys after faq i wanna try to make an old idea about LRL that can work. im very curious what do you think. ( with new points list is legal)

its helon but the general is Stonemage thats why i gave him Mejestic CT. This one + Voice of the mountain gave me e big debuff on enemy breavery , making Tecliss Crippling vertigo mutch easy to hit. We got 1 enemy unit that cant move , possible 2 with our Spirit of the wind combo ( still not nerfed !!!!) . 

I think alarith can be very strong for his 2 rend and it can be our hammer , with stone mage he fight at top of the braket and we can eventually heal him with endless spell or teclis heal . Windcharger and one unit of warden for grab objective with speed of hysh.

another interesting combo is teclis spell to make our stonemage a monster so we got an easy battle tactic for first turn with bonus point . With our mobility shouldnt  be so hard hit Savage Spearhead too. 

 

what do you think guys?

 

Edited December 22, 2021 by Tizianolol

[Maogrim]

6 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

 HelonCTRL.pdf   guys after faq i wanna try to make an old idea about LRL that can work. im very curious what do you think. ( with new points list is legal)

its helon but the general is Stonemage thats why i gave him Mejestic CT. This one + Voice of the mountain gave me e big debuff on enemy breavery , making Tecliss Crippling vertigo mutch easy to hit. We got 1 enemy unit that cant move , possible 2 with our Spirit of the wind combo ( still not nerfed !!!!) . 

I think alarith can be very strong for his 2 rend and it can be our hammer , with stone mage he fight at top of the braket and we can eventually heal him with endless spell or teclis heal . Windcharger and one unit of warden for grab objective with speed of hysh.

another interesting combo is teclis spell to make our stonemage a monster so we got an easy battle tactic for first turn with bonus point . With our mobility shouldnt  be so hard hit Savage Spearhead too. 

 

what do you think guys?

 

I don't think this list is quite legal. If you go with Helon, your general has to take Skyrace Grand Champion as command trait and Metalith Dust as artifact.

Also: why did you even take Helon? Just so that the MSU Windchargers can be Battleline? The Nation does nothing for Wardens or the Mountain Spirit so you don't really get that much milleage out of Gale of killing Shafts.

[Tizianolol]

Battletoo says : first helon hero has to take helon artifact , same about CT. If I play helon but I put general a stonemage , he is not helon , i thought I can give him another artifact.

About the list prob is better play alarith. Anyway i just like CT for breaver debuff its a good combo for vertigo

[Andalf]

I’ve thought about putting mountains into a Helon list just to be able to get them to be able to shoot twice when they are within 3”…. Seems like it could be neat, I often end up shooting something at that range, I’d say almost 50/50 most games but not something to build around.

Iliatha doesn’t have a required command trait so you could take Majestic on your leader there, and you even get a little bravery buff for your own Aelementari Aelfs if you wanted to still take Stoneguard/Windchargers.  Kind of a funny way to play what looks like more of a Vanari province though.

I’m quite keen to try some choppy lists with Avalenor and Eltharion.  Having just learned I could put all D3 attacks from his CA on one unit I think this build could be a surprise for people.  One stack of 15 Stoneguard to take the hit and then just pummel stuff while wardens/sentinels hold the flanks.  Could be fun too.

[Jaskier]

With the point drops to the mountain spirits, how do we feel about Ymetrica now? Is ignoring -2 Rend good enough now that a lot of the ranged mortal dealers have been nerfed? 

[Maogrim]

4 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Battletoo says : first helon hero has to take helon artifact , same about CT. If I play helon but I put general a stonemage , he is not helon , i thought I can give him another artifact.

About the list prob is better play alarith. Anyway i just like CT for breaver debuff its a good combo for vertigo

That's not how it works. When you choose a Great Nation every model in your army that did not have another Nation's keyword becomes the chosen Nation. That includes Stone Mages because 'Alarith' is not a Nation but a temple. Alarith units in a Helon army will all have Alarith and Helon as keywords. Hence the general has to take both the CT as well as the artifact, because your only other hero, Teclis, can't take them.

The only units that would not become Helon  are Avalenor, Myari's Purifiers, Lyrior and the Twins, because they already belong to other Nations (Ymetrica or Iliatha).

[The Other Shrek]

A group at my FLGS is planning on starting up a Path To Glory Campaign and half the people are going to be new to wargaming. I'm still deciding on a faction, but I really like the phalanxes, cavalry, and impractical headware. I've heard that LR are kind of a terror at the moment, but looking over this thread, it seems like half of that is the Sentinels. If I avoid sentinel spam will that be friendly friendly or are LR one of those crush or be crushed factions atm?

[Maogrim]

9 hours ago, The Other Shrek said:

A group at my FLGS is planning on starting up a Path To Glory Campaign and half the people are going to be new to wargaming. I'm still deciding on a faction, but I really like the phalanxes, cavalry, and impractical headware. I've heard that LR are kind of a terror at the moment, but looking over this thread, it seems like half of that is the Sentinels. If I avoid sentinel spam will that be friendly friendly or are LR one of those crush or be crushed factions atm?

From what I've gathered on forums and YouTube channels it's just big numbers of magically enhanced Sentinels and/or multiple Spirits of the Wind that create negative playing experiences. 

If you go with a more melee centric army, e.g. Alumnia, Iliatha or Ymetrica, you and your opponents should be fine and you should still stand a decent chance.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Maogrim