AoS3 - Soulblight Gravelord Discussion

[TechnoVampire]

On 10/31/2022 at 5:44 PM, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Anyone excited about our battlescroll point drops?

I mean, they definitely hit all those underperforming units, but I can't honestly say it made me more interested in running any of them. Neferata maybe, but even then she seems a lot trickier to use and less immediately rewarding than Manfred.

All the other options, though... The unmounted Terrorgheist and Zombie Dragon don't really bring anything very exciting to the table. They just seem like point inefficient beat sticks. The Wight Kings are support heroes that don't support very well and don't seem useful outside of super niche situations. And the Bloodseeker Palanquin truly seems outclassed by the Coven Throne, which is not even that good.

None of them excite me, or make me think those units will see much more play. As you say Neferata was probably the most impactful, but I don’t run her, I much prefer Mannfred. I would have preferred some warscroll updates but didn’t expect them. IMO VLOZD needs a points drop or to remove those 4+ to hit and to be given a command ability. His warscroll feels dated and outclassed to me, he’s often the best choice for a non named combat monster, but he’s too unreliable for the points. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by TechnoVampire

[RocketPropelledGrenade]

33 minutes ago, TechnoVampire said:

None of them excite me, or make me think those units will see much more play. As you say Neferata was probably the most impactful, but I don’t run her, I much prefer Mannfred. I would have preferred some warscroll updates but didn’t expect them. IMO VLOZD needs a points drop or to remove those 4+ to hit and to be given a command ability. His warscroll feels dated and outclassed to me, he’s often the best choice for a non named combat monster, but he’s too unreliable for the points. 

Definitely agreed on the VLOZD. It's a good mobile anvil but far too unreliable to be a hammer, and at the points cost it has, it should be decent as both (or have more support functionality). Given it's a wizard and has self-healing and a ward, I wouldn't ask for Maw Krusha output or anything, but making the damage less random and boost the hit rolls on at least one of the mount profiles would be real nice.

I think points drops might happen before the new tome if the win rate on the faction goes below 45%, but since the VLoZD is so widely used, I don't see them doing that except as a boost to winrates. Instead, I'd hope for a boost next tome. Ideally an offensive or utility buff combined with a couple extra wounds to keep up with the general power creep of a lot of monster profiles.

[TechnoVampire]

12 minutes ago, RocketPropelledGrenade said:

Definitely agreed on the VLOZD. It's a good mobile anvil but far too unreliable to be a hammer, and at the points cost it has, it should be decent as both (or have more support functionality). Given it's a wizard and has self-healing and a ward, I wouldn't ask for Maw Krusha output or anything, but making the damage less random and boost the hit rolls on at least one of the mount profiles would be real nice.

I think points drops might happen before the new tome if the win rate on the faction goes below 45%, but since the VLoZD is so widely used, I don't see them doing that except as a boost to winrates. Instead, I'd hope for a boost next tome. Ideally an offensive or utility buff combined with a couple extra wounds to keep up with the general power creep of a lot of monster profiles.

100% agree, I think with a bit of tweaking he could be great, and I would prefer that than a token points reduction. SBGL needs a scary non named leader unit and VLOZD would benefit from a more defined roll; either as a combat monster by adding a few more wounds and making his damage more reliable (my first choice), or by giving him some decent support/ utility potential. Right now he’s 435 points and doesn’t really shine at any of the above, but can be kind of made to work given some luck on the dice and support from other units. The SBGL book reduced his efficiency from LON, and so I hope they update it in next book… I wouldn’t even mind a points increase if it was given a more modern warscroll. 

[TechnoVampire]

… Thematically it also just feels like VLOZD/ Vhordrai should be a bit more epic on the table, especially given his lore and supposed role in the army. After naggash he should be the scariest thing we can field. I also think that might address some of the problems the army has competitively… there’s a reason so many people use him despite being notoriously unreliable. It’s a role that needs filled. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by TechnoVampire

[Sutek]

i haven't used a VLOZD in a list for ages.  It always seems to disappoint on the table.

[TechnoVampire]

I just finished painting mine… can’t wait for him to miss a bunch of attacks 🤪

 

 

Edited November 14, 2022 by TechnoVampire

[Tizianolol]

Guys I have a question about Vengorian Lord " undeniable impulse". If I run and charge i cant receive and use command ability to another unit?

[Leshoyadut]

Since I don't fully understand your question, I'll just break the ability down as much as I can.

Whether you actually run and charge or not is completely independent of you being able to use a command ability with the Vengorian Lord.

At the start of your hero phase, you roll a die. If the result is less than or equal to the battle round number, Undeniable Impulse is active until your next hero phase, when you roll again. If the result is greater than the battle round number, Undeniable Impulse is not active until your next hero phase, when you roll again. Next, if Undeniable Impulse is active, you can run and charge but not use command abilities with the Vengorian Lord (but it can still receive them); if Undeniable Impulse is not active, you can use command abilities with the Vengorian Lord but cannot run and charge.

It does not affect whether other units can receive or use command abilities, only whether the Vengorian Lord can.

[El Syf]

Don’t think this warrants a new thread but wanted to gauge the feeling of others…

There should be an option for a vampire lord on nightmare to accompany blood knights and blacks knights right?!

It existed up until our new book and the new blood knight models are great so why deprive us of having a vampire lord that can keep up with them without pinions and a zombie dragon? 
It especially hits hard when trying to run kastelai and keeping a close in range for the perfect rousing commander usage. A different command ability that benefited blood knights too would make them go together even better. 
what’s everyone’s thoughts? Wave 2 right?!

[JackStreicher]

57 minutes ago, El Syf said:

Don’t think this warrants a new thread but wanted to gauge the feeling of others…

There should be an option for a vampire lord on nightmare to accompany blood knights and blacks knights right?!

It existed up until our new book and the new blood knight models are great so why deprive us of having a vampire lord that can keep up with them without pinions and a zombie dragon? 
It especially hits hard when trying to run kastelai and keeping a close in range for the perfect rousing commander usage. A different command ability that benefited blood knights too would make them go together even better. 
what’s everyone’s thoughts? Wave 2 right?!

What do you mean, we have Wight Kings, right? 🤣

I agree, Vampire heroes need more options and a rework - they‘re all lacking in every regard.

Edited December 11, 2022 by JackStreicher

[TechnoVampire]

On 12/11/2022 at 8:50 AM, El Syf said:

Don’t think this warrants a new thread but wanted to gauge the feeling of others…

There should be an option for a vampire lord on nightmare to accompany blood knights and blacks knights right?!

It existed up until our new book and the new blood knight models are great so why deprive us of having a vampire lord that can keep up with them without pinions and a zombie dragon? 
It especially hits hard when trying to run kastelai and keeping a close in range for the perfect rousing commander usage. A different command ability that benefited blood knights too would make them go together even better. 
what’s everyone’s thoughts? Wave 2 right?!

I’d be really into this! I’m not particularly interested in any of the vampire foot hero’s (or foot hero’s in general). A named, mounted blood knight could be incredible thematically, aesthetically and for list building. It would be really nice to have a vampire character that interacts with vampires. Fingers crossed it happens at some point🤞 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:50 AM, El Syf said:

Don’t think this warrants a new thread but wanted to gauge the feeling of others…

There should be an option for a vampire lord on nightmare to accompany blood knights and blacks knights right?!

It existed up until our new book and the new blood knight models are great so why deprive us of having a vampire lord that can keep up with them without pinions and a zombie dragon? 
It especially hits hard when trying to run kastelai and keeping a close in range for the perfect rousing commander usage. A different command ability that benefited blood knights too would make them go together even better. 
what’s everyone’s thoughts? Wave 2 right?!

People have been wanting this since the book released, so let's hope GW decides that's our one new hero in ghe next one. Until then, there's always the Vengorian Lord, I guess.

 

On another note, how about them Sons of Velmorn? Good, bad, only casually playable?

[El Syf]

51 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

People have been wanting this since the book released, so let's hope GW decides that's our one new hero in ghe next one. Until then, there's always the Vengorian Lord, I guess.

 

On another note, how about them Sons of Velmorn? Good, bad, only casually playable?

Love the models, haven’t looked too far into their rules as got quite a backlog before I buy anything else.

[TechnoVampire]

3 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

People have been wanting this since the book released, so let's hope GW decides that's our one new hero in ghe next one. Until then, there's always the Vengorian Lord, I guess.

 

On another note, how about them Sons of Velmorn? Good, bad, only casually playable?

Vengorian lord is my current go to for an affordable(ish) non-named character to support blood knights and be given rousing commander. He is fast, fairly survivable and his ability’s are good. He doesn’t feel very thematically in keeping with that aspect of the army to me though.

I love the new sons of velmorn models. I wish GW would make a unit of grave guard that look the same. I think the warscroll for the leader is quite good, but I’m not sure what purpose they’d serve in a list. I think I’d almost always spend the extra 60 points on 20 grave guard. 

[TechnoVampire]

… if he supported grave guard or deathrattle in general then he’d be fantastic. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

7 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

I love the new sons of velmorn models. I wish GW would make a unit of grave guard that look the same. I think the warscroll for the leader is quite good, but I’m not sure what purpose they’d serve in a list. I think I’d almost always spend the extra 60 points on 20 grave guard. 

 

7 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

… if he supported grave guard or deathrattle in general then he’d be fantastic. 

 

5 hours ago, aquenaton said:

In general, I find it very difficult to justfy almost any of the Underworlds warbands on AoS. The low model count, added to the fact that they tend to be an "upgraded version" of an existing unit with flavour and cool extra stuff is nice, but as the most common ways to know if something is useful is by "how much it can tank", "how much it can kill" and "what unique stuff does it provide", they end up in a strange spot. I think that thay could fill some places in a list that has only those spare points, but I am not sure what I would use them for once on the table.

The models look amazing and that is a good reason alone.

 

My thoughts on Velmorn and his sons are ultimately pretty similar to you two. The warscroll seems "good", in so far that there are good stats and abilities printed on it and the points seem fair. But that alone is probably not quite enough to give them an actual role on the tabletop.

Underworlds warbands are always a little awkward to use. I think GW treats them sort of like a min-size unit, which in the case of elite infantry really is not that useful to have a lot of the time. I hope they start treating them more like a hero with a personal entourage in the future and make the warband bosses useful in a list in their own right. Kainan's Reapers in OBR are arguably that, and they actually see play.

[TechnoVampire]

I pretty much agree with all of the above… They look fantastic and I want to like them, but without them interacting with any other units, being able to provide good utility, or survivability, I don’t see them being much use on the table. Everything is ‘fine’ for the points but unless a unit (especially one that doesn’t interact with others) can tank, move, cast or hit really hard, then it’s not going to be doing much and the points could be spent on any number of other things that fill a role. 

Edited December 14, 2022 by TechnoVampire

[El Syf]

Exactly, crimson court as well are fantastic vampire models but their rules are a bit all whacky to say the least. However couldn’t resist them!

[Skreech Verminking]

21 hours ago, aquenaton said:

In general, I find it very difficult to justfy almost any of the Underworlds warbands on AoS.

The skaven eshin warband.

they make any deathmaster and units of gutter runners a laughing stock.

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 hours ago, TechnoVampire said:

I pretty much agree with all of the above… They look fantastic and I want to like them, but without them interacting with any other units, being able to provide good utility, or survivability, I don’t see them being much use on the table. Everything is ‘fine’ for the points but unless a unit (especially one that doesn’t interact with others) can tank, move, cast or hit really hard, then it’s not going to be doing much and the points could be spent on any number of other things that fill a role. 

I gave the warscroll a closer look and there are some fun things about it.

The Sons alone have 10 wounds at a 4+ save. But their Shield Wall ability can put them at save characteristic 3+, after which they can still receive all-out defense to go to a real 2+.

Their damage output is fairly decent if you include King Velmorn. Velmorn himself is extremely fighty, too: 5 attacks, 2 damage and mortals on hit in addition. I hope that sets a new standard for Wight Kings or even Soulblight heroes in general.

There is the option to stop enemies from piling in. This is strong and can be used to pin units until they retreat, if your positioning is good. The main problem is that the sons are only move 6 and Velmorn is only move 4, so pulling it off will be hard. Normal Grave Guard can at least deploy in the grave to help get into position, but the sons are not SUMMONABLE.

Finally, the sons and velmorn don't seem to be faction locked. So they can gain the bonuses from Vyrkos, Legion of Night and Legion of Blood. That's at least more fun allowed than the Exiled Dead get.

[TechnoVampire]

5 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I gave the warscroll a closer look and there are some fun things about it.

The Sons alone have 10 wounds at a 4+ save. But their Shield Wall ability can put them at save characteristic 3+, after which they can still receive all-out defense to go to a real 2+.

Their damage output is fairly decent if you include King Velmorn. Velmorn himself is extremely fighty, too: 5 attacks, 2 damage and mortals on hit in addition. I hope that sets a new standard for Wight Kings or even Soulblight heroes in general.

There is the option to stop enemies from piling in. This is strong and can be used to pin units until they retreat, if your positioning is good. The main problem is that the sons are only move 6 and Velmorn is only move 4, so pulling it off will be hard. Normal Grave Guard can at least deploy in the grave to help get into position, but the sons are not SUMMONABLE.

Finally, the sons and velmorn don't seem to be faction locked. So they can gain the bonuses from Vyrkos, Legion of Night and Legion of Blood. That's at least more fun allowed than the Exiled Dead get.

Nice run down. Some of that had crossed my mind when I first looked over the warscroll, which is what made think they might have some play initially. The easy to access 2+ save, using a free command and shield wall is nice, especially when you can bring them back on a 4+ at the end of each combat! 

I also really like the 2 mortals on a 6 rule and would love to see that brought in as standard across SBGL hero’s. It feels very ‘Death’ thematically, and would make hero’s feel more fighty as well as unique. 

I hadn’t really considered their play in the other sub factions as I mostly just play kastelai, but that’s another good point, and makes the unit feel a bit more versatile. As you say it’s also more fun when the warscrolls interact with the rest of your army/ sub-factions, and makes them feel a slightly more integrated as opposed to tacked on out of obligation. 

Their slow speed and lack of summonable key word however, will probably prevent them seeing as much play as they could otherwise. 

[TechnoVampire]

I don’t think they’ll be squeezing out a unit of 5 blood knights in any of my lists any time soon though unfortunately 🥲

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

I just realized, if you make Velmorn your general, you get Grave Guard battleline, since he's a Wight King. Maybe that makes it easier to fit him into lists.

Or at least it will once Bounty Hunters is no longer in play. You miss out on a command trait, but it might be worth it in some subfactions like Legions of Night and Blood (probably not Vyrkos, though).

[TechnoVampire]

Nice, that gives him a bit of extra value. I’d love to see the rise of infantry and a move away from the shooting dominated meta with the next GHB. It would allow units like grave guard to shine, and death in general would benefit a lot from being able to make use of their slow but effective infantry. I feel that this GHB hasn’t been particularly kind to death players. 

[TechnoVampire]

(With the exception of nighthaunt and expert conquerors maybe)