General Lumineth Realm Lords Rules Discussion

[inflitionz]

2 hours ago, stratigo said:

But it looks to be doubling down on the OP things for LRL. Boosting sentinels to 30 from 20 is great for command efficiency. Teclis was already quite hard a model to kill, and now heals 4 wounds a turn, so if you aren't set up to take him out fast, you simply are never killing him. MSU boosts teclis' magical nuke. It also boosts his ability to force opponents to double the cost for command abilities, which hardcore screws a lot of armies now that command points go away and are such a big deal.

 

Everything is, obviously, pending points costs, but the head rules dude for AoS also really really likes elves.

 

That said, you don't have to make LRL OP. It's not like 2.0 seraphon where you can oopsie into OP builds by just throwing units together, LRL require a bit of thought behind the list making process. If you avoid teclis and a few other units, you'll probably be fine.

 

 

Whilst i agree, i dont think you'll see squads of 30 sentinels for 2 reinforcements slots.  

Also 1500 is likely to be more main stream and teclis likely to see points at 760 removes him from 1500 games. 

Theres too much up in the air at the moment. 

[stratigo]

1 hour ago, inflitionz said:

Whilst i agree, i dont think you'll see squads of 30 sentinels for 2 reinforcements slots.  

Also 1500 is likely to be more main stream and teclis likely to see points at 760 removes him from 1500 games. 

Theres too much up in the air at the moment. 

1500 is… not going to be the mainstream. 2k is where the game’s bread is buttered

[inflitionz]

5 hours ago, stratigo said:

1500 is… not going to be the mainstream. 2k is where the game’s bread is buttered

Many play testers have said tourney scene is likely to switch 1500. 

[Sharklone]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:33 AM, KingKull said:

Not very familiar with AoS but a buddy's looking to getting into LRL and is rethinking it due to claims of OPedness.

Would anyone be so kind as to give me a quick summary of why LRL are considered OP? Much obliged in advance. 

Id probabaly have him wait. First of all Lumineth are complicated AF for a new player.

Second I have 2 mates who play lumineth, and both have shelved them for our casual games because they felt like "that guy", and only run them at competitive events now or when we specifically say we are practicing.

Anyone who underplays the 30" ignoring LOS mortals on 5+s as being OP is a lumineth player who hasn't been on the other end of it. Without actively picking the wrong targets for their attacks, it is hard to play them down (archers that is). They also have a couple of abilities that make the game not super fun for you opponent. Mainly bravery shenanigans and stopping your opponents using CP (this may not be as bad in 3rd with more CP.

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

2 hours ago, Sharklone said:

Anyone who underplays the 30" ignoring LOS mortals on 5+s as being OP is a lumineth player who hasn't been on the other end of it.

My first army is Slaves to Darkness.  Disciples of Tzeentch and Kharadron Overlords are the faction they have played the most. Getting pelted with ranged attacks while slowing moving across the battlefield with nothing in return for a while ranges from annoying to frustrating.  While it is easy to let the feels bad get to you, that can't interfere with losing sight of your plan to victory.

Power of Hysh (the 5 instead of 6 MW thing) is a casting value 6 spell.  Cast natively by the Sentinels that's about a 2/3 to 3/4 success rate.  Like all spells, subject to unbinding attempts and now miscasts. Reliable, but not automatic.  Lack of Line of Sight really doesn't matter much, at least in my games, everything is mostly out in the open save using magic/special abilities.  Their range 30" is extensive, but the Lumineth is counting more on generating Mortal Wounds than actually hitting normally.  So a unit of 10 is generating some 2-3 MW with maybe a single regular 1 wound, no Rend.  Beyond lesser Heroes (like my S2D's poor Chaos Lord on foot) it really isn't going to raise a welt on much without spiking.  All at the price of 140 points and as a conditional Battleline unit.

Maybe the unit could stand to go up 10 points. Though,  I feel that Lumineth don't much all that much on the table as is.  Looking at my Chaos Warriors, or their counterpart SCE Liberators; you could get like 7 of them for the price of 10 Sentinels.   It would take 10 Sentinels most of a game to wipe 7 Chaos Warriors especially if it is done with aloft attacks (those 30" ranged ones).  Since my S2D army is an attrition army, I feel like I can stand to suffer those kinds of losses and still do pretty well and winning the game. It certainly won't be a pretty victory where I got to feel like my evil fighters brutalized the enemy, but it's still an honest win (I get the W, and the LRL force me to take models off the table).

I am not necessarily saying Sentinels can't be oppressive. As AoS is [s]now[/s] last week, some factions are hard counters to other factions.  I can certainly attest to that as my S2D cannot win an attrition battle with Ossiarch Bonereapers.  The Bonereapers are just more optimized for that style of play. So I can see how they might be considered OP in some match ups (like ones that absolutely rely on small Heroes). I don't think it is nearly as extensive as it is made out to be.  But maybe that's because I have had to march dudes into a wall of 9 Flamers with their Exalted Flamer ring leader.  A few magic arrows feels like spring breeze compared to that.

That said, I do think many players and would-be players get far too shaken by actions seem to create an apparent loss of control to prevent/mitigate (as in MW and ranged attacks) which Sentinels do very well.  What I am not sure of is if these players are allowing this apparent loss of control to interfere with their situational awareness and game plan.  Because at the end of the day, 4 lost wounds per 140 pts/turn is not going to be enough to allow them to automatically win games versus me.  Which does make it difficult for me to say Sentinels are OP, at least to the point they get made out to be.  They seem to be this mythic AoS boogeyman unit that has yet to leave me that impressed opposing them or even playing them.

 

For reference, the spoiler contains the Lumineth units I most commonly use for composing my armies.  Sorry 'bout the shoddy paint job, they're still very much a work-in-progress.  Honestly, the Sentinels are have been the closest thing to dead weight except for the Dawnriders as they are kinda points intensive for the speed bump they provide.  Sentinels provide a sense of keeping my opponent from getting too comfortable, but they certainly aren't doing any of the heavy lifting in my army.

Spoiler

 

[Sharklone]

9 minutes ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

My first army is Slaves to Darkness.  Disciples of Tzeentch and Kharadron Overlords are the faction they have played the most. Getting pelted with ranged attacks while slowing moving across the battlefield with nothing in return for a while ranges from annoying to frustrating.  While it is easy to let the feels bad get to you, that can't interfere with losing sight of your plan to victory.

Power of Hysh (the 5 instead of 6 MW thing) is a casting value 6 spell.  Cast natively by the Sentinels that's about a 2/3 to 3/4 success rate.  Like all spells, subject to unbinding attempts and now miscasts. Reliable, but not automatic.  Lack of Line of Sight really doesn't matter much, at least in my games, everything is mostly out in the open save using magic/special abilities.  Their range 30" is extensive, but the Lumineth is counting more on generating Mortal Wounds than actually hitting normally.  So a unit of 10 is generating some 2-3 MW with maybe a single regular 1 wound, no Rend.  Beyond lesser Heroes (like my S2D's poor Chaos Lord on foot) it really isn't going to raise a welt on much without spiking.  All at the price of 140 points and as a conditional Battleline unit.

Maybe the unit could stand to go up 10 points. Though,  I feel that Lumineth don't much all that much on the table as is.  Looking at my Chaos Warriors, or their counterpart SCE Liberators; you could get like 7 of them for the price of 10 Sentinels.   It would take 10 Sentinels most of a game to wipe 7 Chaos Warriors especially if it is done with aloft attacks (those 30" ranged ones).  Since my S2D army is an attrition army, I feel like I can stand to suffer those kinds of losses and still do pretty well and winning the game. It certainly won't be a pretty victory where I got to feel like my evil fighters brutalized the enemy, but it's still an honest win (I get the W, and the LRL force me to take models off the table).

I am not necessarily saying Sentinels can't be oppressive. As AoS is [s]now[/s] last week, some factions are hard counters to other factions.  I can certainly attest to that as my S2D cannot win an attrition battle with Ossiarch Bonereapers.  The Bonereapers are just more optimized for that style of play. So I can see how they might be considered OP in some match ups (like ones that absolutely rely on small Heroes). I don't think it is nearly as extensive as it is made out to be.  But maybe that's because I have had to march dudes into a wall of 9 Flamers with their Exalted Flamer ring leader.  A few magic arrows feels like spring breeze compared to that.

That said, I do think many players and would-be players get far too shaken by actions seem to create an apparent loss of control to prevent/mitigate (as in MW and ranged attacks) which Sentinels do very well.  What I am not sure of is if these players are allowing this apparent loss of control to interfere with their situational awareness and game plan.  Because at the end of the day, 4 lost wounds per 140 pts/turn is not going to be enough to allow them to automatically win games versus me.  Which does make it difficult for me to say Sentinels are OP, at least to the point they get made out to be.  They seem to be this mythic AoS boogeyman unit that has yet to leave me that impressed opposing them or even playing them.

 

For reference, the spoiler contains the Lumineth units I most commonly use for composing my armies.  Sorry 'bout the shoddy paint job, they're still very much a work-in-progress.  Honestly, the Sentinels are have been the closest thing to dead weight except for the Dawnriders as they are kinda points intensive for the speed bump they provide.  Sentinels provide a sense of keeping my opponent from getting too comfortable, but they certainly aren't doing any of the heavy lifting in my army.

  Hide contents

 

Beautiful army mate.

The archers in Isolation aren't an issue. You need to include the chip damage from Searing white light and the portal., the reroll hits spells, the fact that foot heroes are unable to get any protection against the mortals being smashed out. You are entirely right though, they are a hard counter to some armies. I think they could do with a point increase. Even if it is just to disuade from the 2 blocks of 20 you see on the regular. If they were appropriately costed, I don't think they would be the firs thing that comes to everyones mind when asked what's an OP unit. You just have to look at Blissbarb Archers and the comparison and the points cost difference between the two.

Its unfortunate that Lumineth has garnered this reputation. I also have an OBR army, so I get the frustration that people who play against these kinds of armies. Whats worse sometimes though. is the feeling people get about their own armies. I have it about OBR. I played a few games with them and my mates were just miserable after the game. Which sucks for them... and me.

[stratigo]

16 hours ago, inflitionz said:

Many play testers have said tourney scene is likely to switch 1500. 

A bunch warbled on about 40k's tournament points changing. They're still 2k.

 

I will believe the standard game size changes when it actually happens. But GW is clearly still invested in 2k

[Kitsumy]

Yes i dont get the kids hate for lumineths, in fact i think they are mostly reaaaaally bad, with only 2 or 3 ok units. And people criying non stop about them like if they win every tourney, when in reality that was tzench, or karadrons, or pre nerfed kroak seraphons.

 

Archers only do 1.5-3 mw and 1 0rend dmg, for 140p... Thats really bad, when per example lot of cities ranged units do 8.8 with 1rend for around same cost..... Sure they are broken taken out small heros, but thats it, out of that they are one of the worst dmg unit in all aos. Lancers are great defnders, but useles charging. Horses are ok against 1w litle models, but useless out of there, cathalar is broken yes, teclis 4 spells for 660p?? I would never take him.avalenor is great for the aura and dmg. Everything out if those unita are reaaaly bad.

 

Still they will be nerf hard only for kiddos constant whine about them. Sorry about you guys

[stratigo]

11 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

Yes i dont get the kids hate for lumineths, in fact i think they are mostly reaaaaally bad, with only 2 or 3 ok units. And people criying non stop about them like if they win every tourney, when in reality that was tzench, or karadrons, or pre nerfed kroak seraphons.

 

Archers only do 1.5-3 mw and 1 0rend dmg, for 140p... Thats really bad, when per example lot of cities ranged units do 8.8 with 1rend for around same cost..... Sure they are broken taken out small heros, but thats it, out of that they are one of the worst dmg unit in all aos. Lancers are great defnders, but useles charging. Horses are ok against 1w litle models, but useless out of there, cathalar is broken yes, teclis 4 spells for 660p?? I would never take him.avalenor is great for the aura and dmg. Everything out if those unita are reaaaly bad.

 

Still they will be nerf hard only for kiddos constant whine about them. Sorry about you guys

considering teclis sentinel list regularly performs... eh... no. You analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the faction is wrong

[Kitsumy]

Considering numbers shows them at tier 2 at best. But u think they are top without any number.. eerrr ur comment is a joke

 

In fact i just do a table with every tts tourney data they show.since january

 

Lumineths have 0 5-0 tourneys,only 2 4-1( under 9 factions and same others 4).

 

On 3 rows tourney only count the 3-0 since they are smaller. And lumis are 7th coupled with others 4 fsctions( so they are 7-10 th place).

 

So yes, show me why they are op autowin, 0 counter faction like everyone claims

Edited June 17, 2021 by Kitsumy
Add data

[whispersofblood]

20 minutes ago, stratigo said:

considering teclis sentinel list regularly performs... eh... no. You analysis of the strengths and weaknesses of the faction is wrong

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I'm pretty sure Teclis only has one, 2 day event win. 

I suppose we'd have to parse what "performs" means. 

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

Note: I don't usually think about these things so expect some fuzzy (and perhaps incorrect) math here.

 

Teclis, Umbrla Spellportal and 40 Sentinels is like 1300 points right?  Teclis can generate about 4-5 MW on average at decent range with the spell portal.  Forty Sentinels can generate about 10-11 (6-7 without Power of Hysh about 13 with it getting it spell to work 3/4ths the time).  So about 14-16 Mortal Wounds a turn or 70 to 80 a game. With perfect, not going to happen in 10,000 years luck, like 46 or so MW a turn, or  230 MW over the course of the game with little ability to generate (all coming from Teclis) any more damage period.

Which sounds like a lot, and it is.  However, that damage is without absolutely no interference from the opposing side, assuming there's always a target and no overkill.  Though, I suppose that last one can be ignored as a unit is just as likely to suffer at least that many to Battleshock.  That 1300 points can practically do nothing else (well, Teclis also provides a lot of utility).  Sentinels certainly can't be counted on to hold ground without support or provide the smallest of speed bumps.

What could an opposing army get for 1300 points? I know my Slaves to Darkness could easily buy more wounds than those 1300 points could possibly dish out.  I could easily buy 70 Chaos Warriors with 1300 points.  That's 140 wounds.  Ignoring the Runic Shield option, assuming that all Heroes are killed taking away any chance of Chaos Undivided battleshock immunity and any other defensive save, I have almost double the number of wounds that those 1300 points are going to typically dish out.  When I think OP particularly concerning damage dealers, I would expect point-for-point to be absolutely tabled over the course of game not just have less than 2/3 my wounds removed.

I completely understand the loss of control since neither distance nor regular Saves do much to mitigate this damage.  There certainly is a sense of powerlessness.  At the same time, I think opponents can do fine so long as they don't get shaken from this, and build their list with an understanding that about 75 wounds are going to be taken from any part of it over 5 turns of play. I am sure this leaves some factions twisting in the wind as 75 wounds are not easy to come by, but not all factions.

Perhaps this kind of thing comes a little easier for me.  As much as I want to pretend to be a striker player dealing massive amounts of carnage to my opponent's army. I find myself going for a more defensive, attrition style play. It isn't uncommon for me to win games while having a far greater dead pile.  The change in 40k that tabling doesn't mean winning was a massive boost to how I play most of the time.

 

TL:DR: The Lumineth have all sorts of crazy and creative ways to cause not a lot of damage all things considered.  The LRL have all manner of attacks that defy the core rules, however; most of them also don't really do that much damage per point spent to cause it.  Don't let the fact that being powerless to prevent it blind you to how much damage is actually being done.  What I am not saying is that everything is fine and dandy, just that I get the impression people are dazzled by the manner the damage is done without considering the actual ramifications to the game state.

[Benkei]

Are you for real when you say of those 1300 points Teclis will only contribute 4-5 MW a round? This kind of disingenuous "arguments" are the reason people dont like LMR: "hey, let me add a 600 points model here and do the math with it only adding 5 MWs a round. Wow, Sentinels are sure mediocre when you add 600 points of practical dead weight to their cost and you dont take any buff into account!!"

Edited June 17, 2021 by Benkei

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

2 minutes ago, Benkei said:

Are you for real when you say of those 1300 points Teclis will only contribute 4-5 MW a round? This kind of disingenuous "arguments" are the reason people dont like LMR

I haven't used Teclis and haven't looked too far into his warscroll.  So I basically stuck with Searing Light, Arcane Bolt and random  MW from an undetermined spell.  The idea being Teclis isn't likely to go full MW combat wizard, reserving some spells for support/utility.

He can cast Searing White Light which on 1 does nothing, 2-4 does d3 and 5+ does d6.  I get confused between 40k and AoS, but I am pretty sure he can only cast that once as it is a spell.  He can cast Solar Flare but that is withing 10".  As I understand it, the spell has been cast, so the spell portal doesn't extend the range as the portal doesn't count as the caster, and it says withing 10" of the caster specifically. Likewise, he can cast Living Fissure for units within 9" for another potential d3 also with a chance of failure even after casting.  Also, Assault of Stone for a 1 MW. Finally, Arcane Bolt for some damage. I don't have the new stuff at all so I don't know what kind of additional MW spells Teclis has access too.  As demonstrated, much this damage can be reduced or nonexistent even with Teclis automatic casting rolls.  Which I think are uncommon as it is, needs to be considered when coming up with an approximate amount of MW per round.

I am being less disingenuous and more ignorant of the full capability of Teclis.  So I don't see any need for your aggressive stance. If you care to, you can very much enlighten to how and how many Mortal Wounds Teclis can produce per round.  Bonus internet points if you can break it down between beyond 18" and within 18". With that information I can adjust my calculations.  That why I included that first line in my last post.  It is also why I tried to show where I was getting these numbers, I have just started to get games in, and I really didn't bother looking at the Lumineth rules until then.  These kinds of things aren't the sort of things I worry about.  I only bring it up as my experience with the 20 Sentinels I have is very underwhelming compared to the concern they generate online. 

As I said, Teclis and a bunch of Sentinels can generate enough Mortal Wounds to be concerned.  I didn't even touch regular damage they also cause because the discussion was centered on MW and the number of regular wounds is a fraction at range (i.e. more than 18".) The reason I am writing these posts isn't in some attempt to go, "See everyone, Lumineth aren't so bad." It is more, "Huh? Everyone has been crazy about Sentinels, so why did mine do far less than half the amount of damage that my Spirit of the Mountain did?"

[Sharklone]

2 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said:

I haven't used Teclis and haven't looked too far into his warscroll.  So I basically stuck with Searing Light, Arcane Bolt and random  MW from an undetermined spell.  The idea being Teclis isn't likely to go full MW combat wizard, reserving some spells for support/utility.

He can cast Searing White Light which on 1 does nothing, 2-4 does d3 and 5+ does d6.  I get confused between 40k and AoS, but I am pretty sure he can only cast that once as it is a spell.  He can cast Solar Flare but that is withing 10".  As I understand it, the spell has been cast, so the spell portal doesn't extend the range as the portal doesn't count as the caster, and it says withing 10" of the caster specifically. Likewise, he can cast Living Fissure for units within 9" for another potential d3 also with a chance of failure even after casting.  Also, Assault of Stone for a 1 MW. Finally, Arcane Bolt for some damage. I don't have the new stuff at all so I don't know what kind of additional MW spells Teclis has access too.  As demonstrated, much this damage can be reduced or nonexistent even with Teclis automatic casting rolls.  Which I think are uncommon as it is, needs to be considered when coming up with an approximate amount of MW per round.

I am being less disingenuous and more ignorant of the full capability of Teclis.  So I don't see any need for your aggressive stance. If you care to, you can very much enlighten to how and how many Mortal Wounds Teclis can produce per round.  Bonus internet points if you can break it down between beyond 18" and within 18". With that information I can adjust my calculations.  That why I included that first line in my last post.  It is also why I tried to show where I was getting these numbers, I have just started to get games in, and I really didn't bother looking at the Lumineth rules until then.  These kinds of things aren't the sort of things I worry about.  I only bring it up as my experience with the 20 Sentinels I have is very underwhelming compared to the concern they generate online. 

As I said, Teclis and a bunch of Sentinels can generate enough Mortal Wounds to be concerned.  I didn't even touch regular damage they also cause because the discussion was centered on MW and the number of regular wounds is a fraction at range (i.e. more than 18".) The reason I am writing these posts isn't in some attempt to go, "See everyone, Lumineth aren't so bad." It is more, "Huh? Everyone has been crazy about Sentinels, so why did mine do far less than half the amount of damage that my Spirit of the Mountain did?"

I have played against non Teclis lists and they definitely aren't anywhere near as un-fun to play against. You having not used Teclis may be why you dont see the archers as a problem. Without him, they are fine. With him and the combos he can provide its not a real fun game. Quick sample of the spells Teclis can auto cast on a 10.

- Reroll all hits on a unit -Good for archers fishing for mortals.
- All CP costs 2 for the enemy to use
- A unit cannot use or benefit from CA's

- Searing white light , usually through a portal.

- 5+ shrug to everything within 18 of him - providing protection to the ****** screening the archers - which then makes your ****** trying to clear the screen run away from the cathallar - he can also do a -2 boardwide bravery spell.

- Teleport a unit (re setting it up so it benefits from their -1 to hit again)

These are the main ones I have seen bandied about and he can pick 4 of them.. Keep in mind you add in the twinstones and everything is casting a lot better.

You add in these spells, with the archers ability to snipe ****** and you start having problems. All it takes is a searing white light and a unit of ten archers to more than likely kill a foot hero. For some armies. not a big deal, for others, gamebreaking. Outside of that, they can shoot at a unit that Teclis has decided cant benefit from command abilities, no inspiring presence, they are losing models to searing white light, the mortals from archers and then models are running, with no counter play other than staying away from Teclis. 

This is before you factor in trying to even get into a unit that the cathalar can just make run away with her 2+ bravery thing. I agree with you that without Teclis there isn't a problem. and he has just gone up in points so we might see some different armies start to emerge. Even Teclis, without the archers is probable fine. Teclis combo'd with the archers is rough.

I'm not saying that Lumineth are OP and are winning every tournament or whatever. My original response was to that dude asking if his mate should play lumineth or not. I just think that they can have a very oppressive presence on the table which kinda makes its feel like you shouldn't even bother playing. 3.0 may fix some of the interactivity issues people are having with this army however.

The fact that there is a thread in the general forums discussing lumineths rules probably means a fairly large number of people are having problems with it.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Sharklone
edit - the starts for the swearing makes this look aggressive. its not I swear haha. the words are usually another word for poo.

[stratigo]

Teclis personally turns off most of the interactivity they are trying to add to the game by himself.

[Fred1245]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:11 AM, inflitionz said:

Whilst i agree, i dont think you'll see squads of 30 sentinels for 2 reinforcements slots.  

Also 1500 is likely to be more main stream and teclis likely to see points at 760 removes him from 1500 games. 

Theres too much up in the air at the moment. 

No it isn't. There's nothing to suggest 1500pts will be any more common than it is. 2000 is tournament standard. That's what most games will be. Half the factions in the game are completely reliant on their large centerpiece model to do ANYTHING now. No possible way will people want to go down to 1500.

Edited June 18, 2021 by Fred1245

[overtninja]

1 hour ago, Fred1245 said:

No it isn't. There's nothing to suggest 1500pts will be any more common than it is. 2000 is tournament standard. That's what most games will be. Half the factions in the game are completely reliant on their large centerpiece model to do ANYTHING now. No possible way will people want to go down to 1500.

They probably will for casual gaming or smaller local tournaments at clubs, to ensure that people can get their games in. Just because your experience says everyone will play 2k only doesn't mean it's a universal fact.

[Xil]

Sentinels alone aren't a problem, its the combination of their synergies that makes them so strong.

If you think dishing out 3 to 5 MWs on a unit isn't strong then you might be right. But condider that with Teclis its possible to do that to almost every unit that the opposing player brings.

I had a game where i thought ok, i have so many bodies that it won't be a problem....oh dear was i wrong! Getting blasted by searing white light, a hailstorm of arrows and a Dawnrider Charge i lost around 45% of my army without even having a go. And why? Because i don't have Battleshock immunity and get hit with a broken mapwide -3 to bravery. Not even Nighthautns, the supposed shock and fear army can debuff bravery that hard.

So what am i supposed to do with 3 units of 2-4 models and a few heroes left? Right go and Charge! Guess what, LRL Wardens have defensive grenades and dropped every single flask they had killing all my models that made it to combat. and the few survivers had to hit a Cathellar in that stupid terrain (they get on top for free) or some bonkers wardens which popped an Aetherquarz putting the debuff AGAIN on me.

WHERE IS THE DRAWBACK FOR ALL THOSE ABILITIES? WHY DO THEY HAVE AN UNLIMITED TOOLBOX WHILE EVERYONE ELSE HAS TO RELY ON A SPECIAL TACTIC?

Edited June 19, 2021 by Xil

[NinthMusketeer]

People taking about sentinels as if they aren't going to be rocking +2 to cast from twinstones and an extra spell from cogs, plus re-roll via shrine or aetherquartz. Teclis? ****** that, bring more sentinels.

And heavens forbid the opponent actually tries to charge them and gets unleash hell to the face for their trouble.

What I am wondering is if their point cost is taking into account a nerf via eratta.

Edited June 20, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[LuminethMage]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:52 PM, KingKull said:

Very much obliged for the elaborate yet very digestible answer, my friend is going to be very happy. He's let fears of being "that guy" for getting into lumineth get the better of him (although he very much isn't - we play 40k on a regular basis) and I thought some outside info from a more knowledgeable source would help soothe him since I didn't manage to on my own. 

I’m obviously a Lumineth player, but I play against two other people who are also here on the forum, and so far we never had an unfun game. 

I usually don’t play with Teclis, but otherwise I don’t do anything special (usually have 20 Seninels in my lists, some lists had 30). There is a lot of negativity here on the forum, and some people just hate elves, but if you are normal type of person there is no reason why you should be “that guy”. LRL haven’t been the best army by any means - neither in terms of tournament wins, nor in terms of overall win rates. 

They also have a large amount of models, you can easily make a melee focused list too, if you feel shooting is too much. Just lean more into the Mountain Temple. 

They are good, and some people don’t like them. There are some abilities which can be not fun for your opponent, but that’s true for most of the other armies too. 

In terms of power level no one can tell your friend right now how all the changes will end up. It could be that they turn out to be very powerful, or quite bad, or in the upper mid-field like now. 

[NinthMusketeer]

Lumineth as an army are for the most part brilliantly designed and about as well balanced as one can expect. Unfortunately certain units are so poorly done they give the entire faction a bad name.

[Mcthew]

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

There is a lot of negativity here on the forum, and some people just hate elves, but if you are normal type of person there is no reason why you should be “that guy”.

Not true. I'm normal and I like elves (I have an aelve-centric CoS force). So using this as an excuse not to listen to concerns about the faction you play is unhelpful at best.

Most 'normal' people and players agree than some of the LRL synergies are downright broken and need to be nerfed. As they did for OBR pets elite. As they have with Changehost.

It won't happen for a few months but at some point LRL will get nerfed because there is nothing more unfun than playing against cheese lists.

Not an elf hater at all. I just love the game too much to sacrifice that for the faction I play.

To note: I have the Ltd Ed version of the LRL battletome but was put off buying an army for exactly that reason after reading the rules and warscrolls. Still a great book though. 👍

Edited June 20, 2021 by Mcthew

[LuminethMage]

22 minutes ago, Mcthew said:

Not true. I'm normal and I like elves (I have an aelve-centric CoS force). So using this as an excuse not to listen to concerns about the faction you play is unhelpful at best.

Most 'normal' people and players agree than some of the LRL synergies are downright broken and need to be nerfed. As they did for OBR pets elite. As they have with Changehost.

It won't happen for a few months but at some point LRL will get nerfed because there is nothing more unfun than playing against cheese lists.

Not an elf hater at all. I just love the game too much to sacrifice that for the faction I play.

To note: I have the Ltd Ed version of the LRL battletome but was put off buying an army for exactly that reason after reading the rules and warscrolls. Still a great book though. 👍

I didn’t say everyone, you can not like a playstyle, or think something is broken for good reasons, you might be still objectively wrong, though. If you play CoS, then some of the things LRL can do, are pretty rough for you, that still doesn’t mean the faction is broken in general, or playing them is “cheese”. 

Fact is, so far LRL haven’t done anything outstanding, neither in terms of win-rates, nor in terms of tournament wins. Can you make stupid lists with LRL? Yes, sure. If you local LRL player had 80 Sentinels in his list, I think it would a good idea to talk to him or avoid playing against him, if you aren’t playing with similar lists. 

Most people do not agree on this, here on the forum - sure, but a lot of is not rational, or based on anything substantial. I’ve listened a lot to what went on here, to people who likely haven’t played a game in years, were talking about how LRL are the new Stormcast and we won’t see anything else anymore, that they should be boycotted before they were even out etc. It’s the main reason why I’m not around here much anymore. It’s a constant stream of whining about almost any new faction that’s coming out (either that it’s OP or UP), or any changes they make to the game. It’s not everywhere like that, nor is everyone thinking that LRL are OP. Even some of the more known channels like THW don’t think so anymore, because they data doesn’t show that they are. 

Same again now, the FAQ isn’t out, no one has played a real AoS 3 game, but you already seem to know that LRL are OP or cheesy or whatever. 

No one forces you to play LRL with anything CoS couldn’t also do in principle. Play with some a Stoneguard, a Mountain Spirit and Mage, throw in one or two ballistas and some Dawnriders with an additional Wizard if you want and have fun. 

 

[NinthMusketeer]

Tournament play is not representative of most players' experience. And remember; balanced armies don't win tournaments. Once in a while there will be some outlier sure, but anything that shows in the top 25% with any regularity will by necessity be something that absolutely crushes people on the casual level.

What needs to be called out when both sides are talking is not LRL as a whole but rather the specific units being used. THAT would be far more luminating.