Auto Hit/Wound and Save

[Ben]

So in the FAQ, Shock horror!, GW rules that the rules are as the rules read they are.

Does this actually make any difference in the game once you get past it 'feeling' not right? 

 

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

I don't think so. The gameplay difference of that ruling is likely very minimal if that's how you have been playing(incorrectly). 

Nothing invulnverable without buffs. So remove the buff. This is AoS, it shouldn't suffer from old warhammer rules. 

[Jonatan]

I like to roll dice. Autohittng, autowounding and autosaving is not for me.

[The Jabber Tzeentch]

We all like to roll dice, but from what I've seen unless you specifically design lists to create autohit/wound/save units then it doesn't happen that often. And when it does it becomes a one trick pony powered by the buffers. 

AoS is largely about creating and protecting your own synergies whilst trying to remove them from your opponent. 

[Ben]

My next game of AoS will be using the FAQ's.  Lets see how it goes.  

[amysrevenge]

I think if you're playing a Matched Play game, and the costs were designed with autohits not being allowed, then don't allow autohits.  If autohits are in, and stuff that can easily get autohits is pointed accordingly, then go to town.

 

(If you're doing Open Play, then talk about your autohit combos and arrange sides acordingly).

[Veterannoob]

We've been using 1 is a failure. We also use Bases and were at Clash comp locally, now into SCGT practice games before next big event. We have lots a mini-events for like 4-8 players it seems.

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[Thor0298]

My local store had lots to say about the but here's my opinion. Anyone with a 3+ save in cover and mystic shield can have an auto save against non rended attacks. Since that isn't faction specific, I think it's ok.  Especially since you really need something to dish out rend attacks and mortal wounds. The other reason I think it's ok is we have half the guys using forgeworld stuff with rend -3. Now my 1+ is a 4+. So I really don't feel bad that an infantry type unit can't damage that one unit of mine. 

Our soring league went from people figuring the game out to power listing in a few weeks. As people become more familiar with the game, I think they will see this as less of an issue. 

As for autocasting, kill the caster. I know that sounds ridiculous. So I played a death player that was like ha ha ha ongoing to autocast and you won't know what do. Turn one my chameleons popped up and killed the caster. I'm guessing you know how that game went. Which shows the importance of having some sort of unit that can teleport on the board. 

Most things can be dealt with, not all but most. What I've been noticing is having that core group of your army then leaving enough wounds in a sidebar to decide what specialized units to take. I.e. Ranged, mortal wounds, assassins, teleporters etc. I've only played against ten or so opponents and I think 15 or so factions but that's what I have seen. 

Just a question for people anti auto hit. So if you look at the orruk brutes. If their leader takes klaw and smasha if he hits on klaw the two smasha are auto hits. So do u make people roll for that?

[Samurai_Eduh]

1 hour ago, Thor0298 said:

My local store had lots to say about the but here's my opinion. Anyone with a 3+ save in cover and mystic shield can have an auto save against non rended attacks. Since that isn't faction specific, I think it's ok.  Especially since you really need something to dish out rend attacks and mortal wounds. The other reason I think it's ok is we have half the guys using forgeworld stuff with rend -3. Now my 1+ is a 4+. So I really don't feel bad that an infantry type unit can't damage that one unit of mine. 

Our soring league went from people figuring the game out to power listing in a few weeks. As people become more familiar with the game, I think they will see this as less of an issue. 

As for autocasting, kill the caster. I know that sounds ridiculous. So I played a death player that was like ha ha ha ongoing to autocast and you won't know what do. Turn one my chameleons popped up and killed the caster. I'm guessing you know how that game went. Which shows the importance of having some sort of unit that can teleport on the board. 

Most things can be dealt with, not all but most. What I've been noticing is having that core group of your army then leaving enough wounds in a sidebar to decide what specialized units to take. I.e. Ranged, mortal wounds, assassins, teleporters etc. I've only played against ten or so opponents and I think 15 or so factions but that's what I have seen. 

Just a question for people anti auto hit. So if you look at the orruk brutes. If their leader takes klaw and smasha if he hits on klaw the two smasha are auto hits. So do u make people roll for that?

This is why I love the idea of side boards. You have your core, then plug in specialists as needed depending on your opponents build.

[Gaz Taylor]

2 hours ago, Thor0298 said:

Just a question for people anti auto hit. So if you look at the orruk brutes. If their leader takes klaw and smasha if he hits on klaw the two smasha are auto hits. So do u make people roll for that?

I'm not anti-autohit but the way I would play it is anything but a 1

Personally thought, it's all down to what you discuss with your opponent before the game. If you are both happy with it, go with it but if not just say a 1 is a auto failure

 

[CreativeNamToStandOut]

I think it's fine. I think it goes against our sensibilities but isn't that big of a deal in game. There is a lot of rend and mortal wounds to undermine the auto save.

[Thor0298]

47 minutes ago, CreativeNamToStandOut said:

I think it's fine. I think it goes against our sensibilities but isn't that big of a deal in game. There is a lot of rend and mortal wounds to undermine the auto save.

I agree completely. 

[UrbanJesus]

It doesnt bother me, the way I see it, if your opponent has some tanky unit auto-saving, throw out a killy unit with lots of rend/mortal wounds.

 

[Hans]

i more keen to think of AoS with the open play concept to be more inclusive. What ur opponent can do, u can as well. 

if fighting a fair battle is more important, come summer the general handbook is out. At the meantime, there's already SCGT rule set for reference.

[StoneMonk]

From a gameplay perspective I love having 1's failing. From a story perspective I love the idea of a seemingly indestructible foe.

I actually don't use mystic shield that often in games, I always feel like there's something better to do with spells if i have them. I think AoS is resource management, if you use all your resources on one unit you can have a supercharged bomb...but you're likely weakening other things.

Always comes back to the scenario right? 

I always encourage trying rules different ways. 

[amysrevenge]

I tend not to care for the "if your opponent can do it, you can do it" solution. 

I mean, sure, I can play the exact same army as my opponent and exactly duplicate his tricks.  But if I'm concerned about, say, teleporting Retributors messing up my Beastmen, the solution of "well, you can just play teleporting Retributors too, nothing is stopping you" isn't very satisfying if I want to play Beastmen.

Same with auto-hit/wound/save combos - almost everyone can easily get auto-saves by just throwing more Wizards in, but auto-hit and wound are harder to come by, and can cost you a major sacrifice in terms of the story of your army if you want to add them in.

[Motley]

I think it is fine, it generally takes spells and cover, which are choices your opponent makes. A lot of the things that are allowed in AoS, that seem a little strange are just cos they are different. Take the rolling for turn order for instance — I think it is a great mechanic and would hate for it to be take out or comped out somehow. Also shooting into and out of combat — so what?

For the record I have no issue with stacking either — it is in the rules just play them.

[Thor0298]

37 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

I tend not to care for the "if your opponent can do it, you can do it" solution. 

I mean, sure, I can play the exact same army as my opponent and exactly duplicate his tricks.  But if I'm concerned about, say, teleporting Retributors messing up my Beastmen, the solution of "well, you can just play teleporting Retributors too, nothing is stopping you" isn't very satisfying if I want to play Beastmen.

Same with auto-hit/wound/save combos - almost everyone can easily get auto-saves by just throwing more Wizards in, but auto-hit and wound are harder to come by, and can cost you a major sacrifice in terms of the story of your army if you want to add them in.

I think you stormcast example isn't quite the same. Their army has deep strike instead of any casters. My point with a 3+ save in cover and with mystic shield to get you to 1+ was most armies can do that fairly easily basically as long as they have magic. It doesn't require you to switch armies. I don't think anyone "like" deep strike or assassin like abilities. But that is what their army is built around. 

As for the beastman, I'm sure the stormcast guys would love to summon archaon with a roll of 9. or some other big chaos monster and set them up right behind the opponent on turn one. That's actually just about as good as their teleport especially if sitting in arcane terrain. 

[amysrevenge]

Yeah I know.  But it's not as easy as "you can both do it".  I can't get the Tomb Kings auto-hit/infinite attack thing unless I use them myself or try something with Ripperdactyls.  Auto-save is relatively easy to get for almost everyone (trivial if you allow stacking Mystic Shields, as RAW does).  Auto-hit and wound, and many/infinite bonus attacks, are much more difficult to get for everyone without just taking the same handful of units. 

So, an argument of "it's part of the game, just deal with it" I would disagree with but accept as valid.  An argument of "use comp or house rules" I would agree with, and also obviously accept as valid.  An argument of "everyone can do it, so just do it yourself" is technically true, but I won't accept as valid.

[Mikosan]

Haven't had it come up too often, tbh.  As StoneMonk said, seems like I am better served to spread buffs out than pile them all on one unit.  Should say I have only played friendly games at home though, maybe at tournaments it ismore of an issue?

[amysrevenge]

It's really only a theoretical issue so far, at least in my experience.  We've used non-stacking buffs and 1s fail pretty much since day 1, and it seems like that's pretty common in a lot of local metas.

[Thor0298]

I haven't actually seen anyone use auto hit combos but I've heard of the tomb king one. What's the ripperdactyl one

[amysrevenge]

At the basic level you only need a Skink Chief and Rippers.  They get 3A each, 3+ to hit with a reroll, every hit adds another new attack - works out to over 8 hits per model on average.  I'm relatively sure that you can squeeze another +1 or +2 to hit in there as well, but I don't remember what the trick is, but if you can get down to 1+ to hit with every hit generating a new attack, you've obviously hit infinite damage..