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LoN in the current meta


Neil Arthur Hotep

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I think it goes without saying that LoN is not a top tier faction at the moment. But if you wanted to make the best out of a bad situation, what kinds of lists do you think could compete at all?

While LoN was power crept and indirectly nerfed in a few ways, I think there are some unique tricks the faction has that still seem strong, at least on paper. Gravesites and whole unit resurrection are still pretty absurd. LoN wizards are still pretty strong. And the LoN toolbox is still huge, both considering the available warscrolls and subfactions (legions).

I think there are a few archetypes worth considering.

  • Nagash goodstuff

Yeah, Nagash got nerfed, but you can't sleep on the big bone daddy. He still offers absurd healing and spellcasting. Chewing through a board full of skeletons or chainrasps is as hard as ever. Big problems here are the higher amount of shooting and mortals that could take out Nagash early and the fact that an argument could be made that running the same type of list in OBR is just better.

  • Deathmarch

The one good LoN battalion. It even got a point drop in the last GHB! You can still easily pull off the trick that made it good in the first place, rocketing a huge unit of Black Knights 25" up the board turn one. It's just that Black Knights are not really that threatening anymore, and you will most likely have to limit yourself to only those, Grave Guard and Skeletons as your troop choices. While Deathmarch can be one drop, that does not seem like a good version of the list, and you will likely want to be closer to 3 or 4.

  • Legion of Grief

Now explicitly legal again! But is it worth running to get access to more Nighthaunt without allying them in? Or, maybe more to the point, is it worth it for Nighthaunt players to look go Legion of Grief for gravesites? It's worth noting that any LoN list can possibly ally in a Dolorous Guard battalion now for extra protection for their general.

  • Vampire stuff

Be it Soulblight, Legion of Blood or Legion of Night. Vampires have pretty good warscrolls and have recent received point drops as well.

 

What do you guys think? What type of LoN list can best stand up to the current shooting and magic meta?

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LoN still has some really fun lists you can build. Morghasts are almost better in a grand host list led by Nagash than they are in any OBR list post petrifex nerf due to getting plus one attack and being able to pop bloodfeast on them with a vamp and still being healable by Nagash. I'm also somewhat sour and believe the halberd variety should have 5 attacks anyway without having to stack bonuses. 

My regular opponent tends to bring shooting units that seem to miss most of the (all sylvaneth it would seem) so can't comment on that but Nagash can certainly still dominate the magic phase.

 

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As try hard I would go :

arkhan, 2necromancer and vampirelord 

30 reapers, 20grave guard and 2x10 dire wolves

with a mortis engine and an extra CP

 

Not sure if that holds or mortis engine and wolves could be thrown out for other stuff, probably stupid bedsheet stuff 

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I think allying in the Dolorous Guard Nighthaunt Battalion to Guard a VLoZD is the way to go. In Legion of Blood make him your General, use the Command Trait "Aura of Dark Majesty" so he is -1 to Hit in the Combat Phase and then the Artefact "Soulbound Garments" so you're re-rolling all 1's to your save. Any wounds that get through on the VLoZD are shrugged off to the Hexwraiths on a 2+. You just use that as a ridiculous sledgehammer and ram it into the scariest thing your enemy has. Couple all that with the Chalice to heal D6 wounds and then Vile Transference to heal D3 wounds (or 2D3 if you roll a 9+), all this means the VLoZD is going to stick around for a while. While the allied Hexwraiths won't be affected by allegiance abilities, the VLoZD (and other Death Heroes) can still heal or bring back some Hexwraiths with Deathly Invocations.

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1 minute ago, lare2 said:

This never crossed my mind... I like this. 

Yeah, now that GW has confirmed that Dolorous Guard is legal to use in matched play I will be using it as an allied battalion and testing it out. Two units of five Hexwraiths and the battalion is just under 400 points, so it works perfectly.  Aside from being able to shrug wounds off on the Hexwraiths (which is worth the points alone) you also get the added number of attacks on the charge for the Hexwraths. 

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1 hour ago, Honk said:

As try hard I would go :

arkhan, 2necromancer and vampirelord 

30 reapers, 20grave guard and 2x10 dire wolves

with a mortis engine and an extra CP

 

Not sure if that holds or mortis engine and wolves could be thrown out for other stuff, probably stupid bedsheet stuff 

I've considered Arkhan, too, but I think there are some things that make him unattractive overall.

Arkhan is very much a mini Nagash, with worse spell casting, warscroll spells, healing and command ability. For me, that makes him only attractive in a list that is not willing to pay Nagash-level points on magic. But if you put him into a list with two Necromancers and a Mortis Engine, you definitely start paying Nagash points for worse-than-Nagash magic. Not to mention that he blocks you from getting a command trait in Legion of Sacrament.

I could see him as your super caster in Grand Host, though, or as a second mortarch in Legion of Blood.

46 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

I think allying in the Dolorous Guard Nighthaunt Battalion to Guard a VLoZD is the way to go. In Legion of Blood make him your General, use the Command Trait "Aura of Dark Majesty" so he is -1 to Hit in the Combat Phase and then the Artefact "Soulbound Garments" so you're re-rolling all 1's to your save. Any wounds that get through on the VLoZD are shrugged off to the Hexwraiths on a 2+. You just use that as a ridiculous sledgehammer and ram it into the scariest thing your enemy has. Couple all that with the Chalice to heal D6 wounds and then Vile Transference to heal D3 wounds (or 2D3 if you roll a 9+), all this means the VLoZD is going to stick around for a while. While the allied Hexwraiths won't be affected by allegiance abilities, the VLoZD (and other Death Heroes) can still heal or bring back some Hexwraiths with Deathly Invocations.

I like it! You might be gilding the lily a bit in terms of survivability if you do all of this at once, but the possibility of having a general that is guaranteed to stick around for a while is definitely worth taking seriously in LoN.

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4 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I could see him as your super caster in Grand Host,

That was the goal. And I don‘t think you can compare Arkhan with two necromancer with Nagash. The mortis engine could be switched against corpse cart, which would also boost the casting, the save from the wolves and rerolling the regeneration...

but the Dolores Guard is also a great option, and much more aggressive 

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On 10/17/2020 at 12:06 AM, Honk said:

That was the goal. And I don‘t think you can compare Arkhan with two necromancer with Nagash. The mortis engine could be switched against corpse cart, which would also boost the casting, the save from the wolves and rerolling the regeneration...

I thought I had replied to this, but it seems not. If this is a double post somehow, I'm sorry about that.

So I definitely get where you are coming from. But I think it is fair to compare Arkhan and friends to Nagash in some ways. Both fill a similar role in the army, for starters: They are mainly support casters. So in my mind, if I am taking Necromancers or Arkhan, I need to make a decision about how much of my point budget I want to spend on support casters.  For me, if I am considering Arkhan then that is because I am not willing to spend the 880 points Nagash costs on my support. Arkhan and two Necromancers are 620. And if you add any way to buff their casting (which you would normally be tempted to do after focussing so much on magic), you will easily edge into the 800s. And at that point, I think this question becomes valid: Am I actually getting more out of Arkhan and his buddies than if I just took Nagash? To me, the answer is no: Nagash does way more than 800 points of other assorted casters.

Anyway, I want to be constructive, as well, so I will add some more ideas. Here's a little tech piece I am considering:

First, a question. Grave guard are 140 points, and they are pretty good. Does a unit that does more damage at higher rend for 130 sound like it would be a good pick? Then you should take a look at Kurdoss Valentian! Ok, I am being a bit tricky here. Kurdoss is not 130 points, he's 180. But he does have that ability that allows you to steal a command point from an opponent once a turn. And, as we know, a command point is 50 points. So if he does this once a game (which I think is realistic), you are essentially only paying 130 for him.

So what is the role of Kurdoss in a LoN force? I think if you already took an extra command point and want more he's worth considering. He has some upsides:

  • High ceiling and reasonable floor

If he steals two command points from the opponent, that can be huge for you. That's two potential resurrections for you and two charges or battleshock tests that your opponent will potentially fail. If you ever manage to get him into the opponent's general, he does very good damage, as well. Even in the worst case, he's only 180, so if he does nothing one game it's not the end of the world.

  • High rend

LoN does not have many good sources of high rend attacks, so having a beatstick like Kurdoss is pretty welcome. You can stick him on a point with a bunch of skeletons or chainrasps and he'll be really helpful driving those high-save enemies off of one of those mid-table objectives.  He's not fast, but 6" flying is enough to keep up with your infantry. As an ally, he does not benefit from Deathless Minions, but he grants it to other units (weirdly), as you only need to be a Death hero to do this.

  • Good ally

Kurdoss does not lose out on much by being an ally. He already can't take artefacts and is not a spellcaster. He loses out on Deathless Minions, but he already has a 4+ ethereal save and 7 wounds, so that's OK. If you few him as a troop choice that gains you a command point sometimes instead of a support hero, he looks pretty good! He does not benefit much from synergies, but that just means that he doesn't need support to do what he's there for.

There are some downsides, too, of course. You cannot run this guy and Dolorous Guard in the same list, since that's too many points of allies. But if you run DG, you probably have enough command points already, anyway. Kurdoss rerolls failed hits if he fights the enemy general, but you will rarely be able to make use of this since he's too slow. It's best to just view this as a nice bonus if it does happen. Otherwise I think for 180 points he's pretty solid.

 

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1 hour ago, lare2 said:

Regarding Dolorous Guard as allies for LoN: If a unit of Hexwraiths in the Dolorous Guard dies and you bring it back with Endless Legions, would it still be a part of the battalion? 

You cannot bring them back with endless legions because they are allies and do not benefit from allegiance abilities. So only way to bring back / heal them is through Deathly Invocations or Vile Transference.

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2 minutes ago, BaylorCorvette said:

You cannot bring them back with endless legions because they are allies and do not benefit from allegiance abilities. So only way to bring back / heal them is through Deathly Invocations or Vile Transference.

Of course  - thank you!

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In the recent meta watch article on Warhammer Community, the tournament breakdown featured three top 5 finishes of LoN, one even getting a first place. The first place was Legion of Grief, while the other two were Legion of Sacrament. I'm not really that familiar with Legion of Grief, but Legion of Sacrament has a few nice traits that might help it in the current magic+shooting meta.

  • Anti-Shooting

While LoN has no shooting of their own, the faction is somewhat more resilient against shooting than most. Your basic summonable troops are unlikely to break from shooting. They have high bravery, so spreading around damage and getting battleshock kills is not that effective. They passively heal from gravesites and heroes, so you can't really grind them down. And if they are wiped out completely by focus fire, they can just be resurrected. Not to mention deploying them in the grave from the start.

What's weak to shooting in LoN is your support heroes, with their bad saves and 5 wounds per model. And keeping the general alive is more important in LoN than other factions, since only they can resurrect your summonable units. This is where Legion of Sacrament offers some interesting tools. Sacrament has two anti-shooting artefacts: The Shroud of Darkness and the Wristbands of Black Gold. The Shroud gives -2 to hit against shooting for units outside of 8", and -1 inside of 8". The Wristbands are just a 4+ aftersave against shooting. The two bonuses are about the same, cutting the damage from shooting in half. However, the Shroud can stack with Deathless Minions, while the Wristbands overwrite your usual 6+ save.

The Shroud gives a model a -3 to be hit coupled with "Look out, Sir!" Even a Necromancer will stick around for a while, between that, Deathless Minions and their wound pass off ability.

It's notable that in Legion of Sacrament, you might actually have two artefacts available, since you could run Deathmarch to full effect (since the Mastery of Death command trait that enables this strategy is also in LoS) .  In that case, your other arefact could be the Azyrbane Standard, which gives -1 to wound and -1 to cast for Order wizards in a bubble, and put it on a hero able to be into your opponent's face quickly.

Or, if you want to go more generalist, you can get an extra artefact by allying in the Dolorous Guard. This also has the upside of protecting your general further (2+ wound pass off for your general to the Hexwraiths).  A VLoZD with Dolorous Guard protection and the Wristbands or Azyrbane Standard is fairly immune to shooting, and you get the advantage of making protecting one of your back field support casters with the Shroud, as well.

  • Casting Bonuses

Even without a mega-caster, LoS can participate in the magic phase. It's likely that a lot of your heroes will be casters without you even trying, and LoS offers a +1 to cast as part of your allegiance abilites. You can buff this casting further by bringing a corpse cart or mortis engine for +1 to cast each.

It's worth mentioning the Lords of Sacrament battalion at this point. It consists of Arkhan, two Necromancers and a Mortis Engine for a total of 960 points. It's benefit is giving you +1 spell for all battalion members in a radius around the Mortis Engine, as well as a +1 to saves in the shooting phase.

I personally think this build is a trap option.  First of all, it locks you into a death star formation, which is not great since LoN struggles to project power in several places at once already. Since you are in LoS, Arkhan will have to be the general as well, which is a shame since LoS has several good command traits. Yes, you will cast 8 spells at a +2 minimum, but what are you actually going to cast? Likely it's going to be Vanhel's with a Necromancer, three lore of the Deathmages spells (if you are in range, although Arkhan can help here), possibly a realm spell, and then you are down to mystic shield/arcane bolt. Just to put this into perspective, you are just about the same points as it would cost to have Nagash+Spell Portal. I personally think you get a lot more out of just bringing Nagash (three lore spells, hand of dust, arcane bolt machine gun, command ability...).

However, the unconditional +1 to cast is nice. It gives you a much better chance of actually getting your support spells through. I think if you are already incidentally running several wizards (a necromancer, VLoZD, vampire lord and possibly even a Wight King if you give it the Dark Acolyte command trait) a corpse cart or mortis engine might be a justifyable investment.

  • LoN-internal advantages

Legion of Sacrament has a few nice things that help patch up weaknesses of LoN in general. The command trait Mastery of Death allows you to move units around your general 3" in the hero phase, which can help with the general low mobility of LoN and is the stand out command trait of this Legion along with Dark Acolyte in my opinion.

The other allegiance ability of the Legion, the Master's Teachings, is also quite fun: It allows you to resurrect a destroyed unit for free if:

  1. You completely destroy an enemy unit.
  2. The last model removed was within 6" of a grave site.
  3. You roll a 4+.

This might sound like a lot of hoops to jump through, but you can increase the likelyhood of it happening by placing your grave sites aggressively. Don't worry so much about you opponent trying to block your resurrection: If you place a gravesite close to an objective, and they have to position themselves awkwardly to both block your summoning and avoid the possibility of Master's Teachings, the ability is already doing work for you. What this ability encourages in my mind is aggressive play with your grave sites and some of your units. You will have to have some fast units that can engage the opponent early and likely die so that you can make use of this ability. So packing a unit of Black Knights or at least Dire Wolves is probably a good idea.

 

Those are some of the benefits I see for Legion of Sacrament. I would love to hear other opinions on this. I don't get to play as much as I would like, so I might well be over or undervaluing some things here.

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Meta or not, we‘ll have a small Halloween Clash and I‘ll sport the firework brigade 

Nagash and Arkhan, 2x10wolves, 2 Morghast a corpse cart and a mortis engine. Prismatic palisades to hide...

with arkhan‘s CA they’ll fire 11 arcane bolts at 24“ with +5/+4 so doing d3 mortals at 5+\6+
 

i Hope nobody fields tzeentch or I‘ll be summoning Birdies all around

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1 hour ago, Honk said:

Meta or not, we‘ll have a small Halloween Clash and I‘ll sport the firework brigade 

Nagash and Arkhan, 2x10wolves, 2 Morghast a corpse cart and a mortis engine. Prismatic palisades to hide...

with arkhan‘s CA they’ll fire 11 arcane bolts at 24“ with +5/+4 so doing d3 mortals at 5+\6+
 

i Hope nobody fields tzeentch or I‘ll be summoning Birdies all around

If nothing else, that seems like a hilarious janky list! I would imagine that the sheer number of mortals would actually be pretty hard to deal with for some armies. Don't tell anyone that morghast are no longer battleline, though.

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30 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Don't tell anyone that morghast are no longer battleline, though.

In a Grand host List with Naggy as General ?!? 😳🙀😓

Funniest thing the LoN errata showing the wrong points... darn you GDubs

but I guess I‘ll have to split one speedbump then 🤔

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3 minutes ago, Crowvus said:

Are we really able to take Dolorous Guard as an ally battalion? 

As of the recent FAQ : YES

and imo Battalions were always legal allies, if you could afford the units and the battalion pointwise.

the dolorous guard was a bit special iirc, because it is a White Dwarf Battalion, which first got kicked out and is now legal again.

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On 10/29/2020 at 11:15 AM, Honk said:

As of the recent FAQ : YES

and imo Battalions were always legal allies, if you could afford the units and the battalion pointwise.

the dolorous guard was a bit special iirc, because it is a White Dwarf Battalion, which first got kicked out and is now legal again.

I have had decent success with the Dolorous Guard in Legion of Blood, running a double VLoZD list. However, those were the days of the Ethereal Amulet, which meant you had two very hard to kill monsters, one because of the battalion, the other one because of the amulet - happy days. However, I'm not running this battalion anymore, as the extra artefact - whilst still useful (Soulbound Garments and Orb of Enchantment would be my pick) - is not as potent as the Amulet. Thing is, you are investing 380 points to bring in the battalion. It was worth it back then, when - effectively - you were paying to get two neigh un-killable VLoZD; now, it's only one. Sure, it's your General and that's key to bring back units, but for that price tag you don't have that many points to invest into summonable stuff to bring back in the first place. For 60 points more you can bring in another VLoZD (or, some serious amount of bodies)! So yeah, I have tried a few things with this battalion but in the end, as of today, you are always too thin on the ground - we need the bodies.

Speaking of which: how about the good ol' Nagash + big blobs of Reapers list that used to be fairly horrific back in the day? Still viable or just too costly? I'd never run anything like it myself (I can't be bothered to paint some 90 Reapers...) but I am curious nonetheless.

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9 minutes ago, Thamalys said:

Speaking of which: how about the good ol' Nagash + big blobs of Reapers list that used to be fairly horrific back in the day? Still viable or just too costly? I'd never run anything like it myself (I can't be bothered to paint some 90 Reapers...) but I am curious nonetheless.

I have recently looked at Reapers, but they are too expensive now to run 90 (420 points for 30). But you can fit 60 and a bunch of dire wolves, which is probably the better list anyway. Reapers have stiff competition from Grave Guard these days, though, which are 30 for 360 points. I think the two units are internally fairly balanced. You can justify either choice, I think.

Something perspective about Grave Guard: Offensively, they are sort basically Mortek Guard with +1 to wound, although of course they are much less durable. They can also be cheaper at certain unit compositions (Mortek are cheaper at 40, but Grave Guard are cheaper at 30). So I feel they are pretty legit at the moment.

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37 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

I have recently looked at Reapers, but they are too expensive now to run 90 (420 points for 30). But you can fit 60 and a bunch of dire wolves, which is probably the better list anyway. Reapers have stiff competition from Grave Guard these days, though, which are 30 for 360 points. I think the two units are internally fairly balanced. You can justify either choice, I think.

Something perspective about Grave Guard: Offensively, they are sort basically Mortek Guard with +1 to wound, although of course they are much less durable. They can also be cheaper at certain unit compositions (Mortek are cheaper at 40, but Grave Guard are cheaper at 30). So I feel they are pretty legit at the moment.

I see! Grave Guard, eh?  Never even thought about it... perhaps because I want everything in my lists to be very fast. These fancy skellies move 4", no flying - albeit they have a 6" guaranteed charge, which is very sweet. 5+ save (4+ if no rend), potential for double damage on wound rolls of 6+.  Reapers move 8", flying, 4+ ethereal, in-built re-roll mechanics for units with 5+ models and they have a very useful 2" range (albeit the Grave Guard models are 25mm basis, right? In that case, it'd be two ranks for them as well, I guess).

Well, I wanted an excuse to start painting some skeletons anyway, so I might give them a go... thanks for bringing this up!

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1 minute ago, Thamalys said:

I see! Grave Guard, eh?  Never even thought about it... perhaps because I want everything in my lists to be very fast. These fancy skellies move 4", no flying - albeit they have a 6" guaranteed charge, which is very sweet. 5+ save (4+ if no rend), potential for double damage on wound rolls of 6+.  Reapers move 8", flying, 4+ ethereal, in-built re-roll mechanics for units with 5+ models and they have a very useful 2" range (albeit the Grave Guard models are 25mm basis, right? In that case, it'd be two ranks for them as well, I guess).

Well, I wanted an excuse to start painting some skeletons anyway, so I might give them a go... thanks for bringing this up!

They are slow, but they are fast in Deathmarch, where you can get them to go 11" on the first turn pretty much guaranteed (with the battalion bonus plus Mastery of Death from Legion of Sacrament). That's one of the reasons I think Deathmarch is one of the few viable battalions in LoN, it helps with one of LoN's biggest weaknesses. You can also fairly reasonably expect to charge your opponent with Black Knights turn one. They do OK damage against 4+ saves, even 3+ honestly, and will definitely tie up the opponent for a turn at least. And you can give them +1 attack and fight twice, of course.

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Hey TGA!

It's been a while since I've been deep into AOS.

Wanted to jump into the discussion with my take on Legion of Sacrament with Dolorus Guard.

To optimize a list I understand it may be more viable to add Grimghast Reapers pr big blobs of Skellies/Chainrasps, I just don't own those units at the moment.

I also own 4 Morghasts, 3 Vargheists,  1 Morits Engine, and the Mortachs all with magnetized butts. Mortarchs are challenging to put into a list when they steal your better VLOZD's stuff. Other units don't have summonable keyword so they seem to have been tossed aside from GW for the moment. At least the Morghasts are even cheaper these days :)

 

Spirit Hosts seem great with the changes to bringing back units. Maybe better if you're running Arkhan as they've updated him. Lots of points increases across the old LOS battalion, can't imagine that's viable now. 9 hosts could be great, but that's a lot of bases to get into combat, and realistically I'll never get to re-summon this unit because 9 will never die.

 

Having multiple big targets for Vanhel's seems like it's ideal for list building.

6 Spirit Hosts + 20 Reapers would be nice to fit in, but Dolo guard isn't cheap and the Necro's are quite expensive now.

 

Would you choose Wristbands over the Shroud on the VLOZD?  Seems pretty meta dependent.

How would you fill the remaining 260 points?

What changes would you make here to optimize this list?

-I've yet to play with Endless spells. I don't own them yet. It's on the fun list, but I've no idea how they fit into a competitive list.

---------

Allegiance: Legion of Sacrament
Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon (440)
- General
- Deathlance & Shield & Chalice
- Command Trait: Mastery of Death
- Artefact: Shroud of Darkness
- Lore of the Vampires: Vile Transference
Necromancer (130)
- Artefact: Wristbands of Black Gold
- Lore of the Deathmages: Fading Vigour
Necromancer (130)
- Lore of the Deathmages: Overwhelming Dread
40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)
- Ancient Spears
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Dire Wolves (70)
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
- Allies
5 x Hexwraiths (130)
- Allies
6 x Spirit Hosts (240)
The Dolorous Guard (120)
- Allies

Total: 1740 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 380 / 400
Wounds: 122

260 points remaining.

---------

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Yesterday I made a video for Patreon talking about the Legion of Blood.

a27d24_acc61d6390da4ff39a9ff8e9223d17c0~

a27d24_66b1ed61f4b144bab984c3f885864ab2~

 

The artifact of the little vampire lord is not as important as the orb, but I would like to use the "Legion of Blood dispell scroll" due to the current meta game.

I love Legion of Grief and I love this Legion of Blood list, and if we have an ETC on 2021 and we didn´t have a new vampiric book I would probably test this list. You have lots of bodies for objetives (80 ghost), you can reborn units, you have bodyguard on a dragon, the orb that is an amazing artifact, and the Blood Knights are ultra-cheap and they have lots of sinergies.

If I need to play LON on a tournament, that would be my list.

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