Climbing and Flyers

[ACBelMutie]

We (my friends and me) are not sure about the climb rule. In AoS you can climb an obstable, so you can be in the middle of a wall, for example. Another rule says flyers ignore vertical distances when moving.

Nagash is at 9" from those 5 Clan Rats at 9" and there is a wall between them. If Nagash charge with a 9 (6+3), can he attack the Clan Rats? The base doesn't fit between the wall and the rats and he has not enought movement to flank and attack by the side where he has enough room. I can think he can fly so he can pass the wall, but his base doesn't fit there. Can he use the "climbing rule" to stay stick to the wall and attack the clan rats?

And another question, can a flying unit stay over a structure like a tree or a house (base can't stay on they own)?

Greetings

[Isotop]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

But now you are ignoring key mechanics of fly. You are measuing vertical distance and taking into account that the terrain is there, both of which the core rules specially state you ignore when making a move. 

I tried to simplify the situation, resulting in this (sorry for my drawing skills/tools) graphic:

Yellow = Nagash (we assume 6" base)

Pink dot = a fixed point within Nagash´s base

Red = enemy model Nagash wants to charge

Grey= structure in the way (Nagash has to "stick" to the wall at the end of the movement)

1,2,3= Nagash´s positions after different parts of his charge move

We assume the distance between Nagash (1) and the enemy model is 9,5" and the distance to get from 1 to 2 is 9". 

 

Position 2 is "inside" of the structure since we can ignore it during the flying charge move. So, the first part is pretty simple: Nagash has to move 9" to get from Position 1 to Position 2. The weird thing (in my view) happens now. Nagash has to be tipped up the wall since he can not end his charge move inside of the structure. Here is where the pink dot on his base comes into play. To get from Position 2 to Position 3, the pink dot part of Nagash´s base moves 6" (only horizontal movement because of flying), does it not? Therefore Nagash would have to move 15" in total to reach his final destination: 9" straight movement  from Position 1 to Position 2 plus 6" rotating into Position 3.

 

You have to apply the movement rules (furthest point of the base/model moved) to every part of a movement, do you not? If yes, I assume that the explanation above is correct, but I might be missing something. This procedure does seem a bit weird, so feel free to chip away at my understanding.

[Matt Sandi]

Following 

[XReN]

9 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

And another question, can a flying unit stay over a structure like a tree or a house (base can't stay on they own)?

They can stay on it and it is not required for a model to be able to physicaly stay somewhere without falling

[rosa]

To add this:

Distances are also measured vertically, correct?

So if a flying model lands and stays on something with, lets say 4 Inch height, it can not attack with its 1 Inch reach melee weapons other models that stay on the Grund and Vice versa, correct?

[ACBelMutie]

4 hours ago, XReN said:

He would need more than 9" to make it there. Here's why:

We know that to get into combat he needs to get withtin 0,5" of clanrats. Because of climbing mechanic I think it is valid to place him on the other side of the wall, his base almost perpendicular to the table.

Than, based on movement rules here

 

He would need to roll enough to get the furthest point of his base over the wall.

IMO that is the only way you can make this charge since you can't stand on top of enemy models nor he will get into 0,5" of clanrats by standing on the wall.

But Nagash can fly, so why can't he attack them? I'll try to draw another image at home to clarify this. 

Greetings 

[XReN]

1 hour ago, rosa said:

To add this:

Distances are also measured vertically, correct?

So if a flying model lands and stays on something with, lets say 4 Inch height, it can not attack with its 1 Inch reach melee weapons other models that stay on the Grund and Vice versa, correct?

It wouldn't even engage models on the ground in melee

Edited January 16, 2020 by XReN

[rosa]

I would also know the answer of this Last question asked above. We also have these kind of Situations in Games and it feels wrong...

Anybody?

[XReN]

7 minutes ago, rosa said:

I would also know the answer of this Last question asked above. We also have these kind of Situations in Games and it feels wrong...

Anybody?

Yes, you can place whatever on whatever except other models however you like. This is how simplified the rules for it are and that feels wrong because it's stupid and lazy design. You can even put a Forge World gigantic Khornate dragon on the tip of this statue's sword

Spoiler

and that would be legal within the rules. 

[Pazour]

4 hours ago, XReN said:

Here, I hope this illustrates the point  

EDIT. Man, that would be a sick "Smooth Criminal" charge 

Flying rules would trump that no?

FLYING If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move. Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move. It cannot finish the move on top of another model.

[XReN]

4 minutes ago, Pazour said:

Flying rules would trump that no?

FLYING If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move. Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move. It cannot finish the move on top of another model.

The horizontal distance that opposite points of model's base travelled is still different though. So no, it won't.

[willange]

Honestly this the kind of situation where I would just do what makes sense.  If you're in the tournament and this sort of situation comes up, then call a judge and have them call it. If it were in my play group, we'd probably just call 9" good since he flies.  We don't worry too much about these (literal) corner cases.

[relic456]

I think my answer is a little bit different. I think Nagash would need a 9"+his base size charge to successfully attack. Assuming the wall in question is a solid block, Nagash wouldn't be able to end his move "inside" of the block. He also wouldn't be able to land on top of the block, since he'd no longer be within 0.5" of the Clanrats and therefore it would be an illegal charge. To successfully attack, Nagash would need a long enough charge so that his whole base clears the terrain, with his back edge then being able to "attach" to the terrain, 0.5" above the Clanrats. Though I don't have a rules reference saying a flying model can't end it's move inside a terrain piece.

[gronnelg]

Any unit can "stand" on vertical surfaces (even if the physical model can't). So there should be no problem with Nagash ending his move in position 3 in @Isotopdrawing. And since flying ignores vertical distance, then the pink dot would be within 9" of it's original position, which would be a successful charge in that case. Right?

[Isotop]

11 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Any unit can "stand" on vertical surfaces (even if the physical model can't). So there should be no problem with Nagash ending his move in position 3 in @Isotopdrawing. And since flying ignores vertical distance, then the pink dot would be within 9" of it's original position, which would be a successful charge in that case. Right?

I do not think that the movement rules work this way, and here is why: You basically say that we have to compare the pink dot at the starting position to the pink dot at the end position of the move only. But if this was the case, models could move as far as they want during their movement as long as they end the movement within their Movement Characteristic from the starting point. I hope this argument is comprehensible . 

Edited January 21, 2020 by Isotop

[gronnelg]

On 1/21/2020 at 10:49 PM, Isotop said:

I do not think that the movement rules work this way, and here is why: You basically say that we have to compare the pink dot at the starting position to the pink dot at the end position of the move only. But if this was the case, models could move as far as they want during their movement as long as they end the movement within their Movement Characteristic from the starting point. I hope this argument is comprehensible . 

Your certainly right that we have to consider more than start and finish. The actually movement is also essential.

So here's how I see it: 

We have to move Nagash onto the building, and then far enough forward so that we can tilt his base into a vertical postion. Let's say the midpoint of his base.  Then we tilt him forward to a vertical position. We now used all of the 9" movement. But since Nagash is a flyer, he can ignore vertical movement. So now we slide him downwards along the building wall, until he is within 0,5" of the clanrats. Seen from above this would be a 9" move. For a non-flying unit, we would also have to consider vertical movement, bringing this to more than 9". But since a flyer ignores vertical movement, this is still a 9" move, as seen from straight above. Am I missing something?

[Isotop]

4 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Your certainly right that we have to consider more than start and finish. The actually movement is also essential.

So here's how I see it: 

We have to move Nagash onto the building, and then far enough forward so that we can tilt his base into a vertical postion. Let's say the midpoint of his base.  Then we tilt him forward to a vertical position. We now used all of the 9" movement. But since Nagash is a flyer, he can ignore vertical movement. So now we slide him downwards along the building wall, until he is within 0,5" of the clanrats. Seen from above this would be a 9" move. For a non-flying unit, we would also have to consider vertical movement, bringing this to more than 9". But since a flyer ignores vertical movement, this is still a 9" move, as seen from straight above. Am I missing something?

This would be still 15" of movement, would it not?

Same scenario as before (if this was not clear, this is a representation from the side):

Yellow = Nagash (we assume 6" base)

Pink dot = a fixed point within Nagash´s base

Red = enemy model Nagash wants to charge

Grey= structure in the way (Nagash has to "stick" to the wall at the end of the movement)

1,2,3= Nagash´s positions after different parts of his charge move

 

You want to "move Nagash onto the building, and then far enough forward so that we can tilt his base into a vertical postion". You want to move him with half his base overlapping onto the structure. This is represented in the movement from position 1 to position 2. As you can see, Nagash allready moved 12" (9" + half of his base size (6"/2)) at this point. Then the pink dot moves further 3" (against half of Nagash´s base) horizontally by rotating the base 90° around its center - this way we get from position 2 to position 3. The final position (not presented in the graphic) will be reached by "gliding" down the wall, which is free because it only consists of vertical movement and Nagash flies. 

Am I missing something here?

[gronnelg]

19 hours ago, Isotop said:

This would be still 15" of movement, would it not?

Same scenario as before (if this was not clear, this is a representation from the side):

Yellow = Nagash (we assume 6" base)

Pink dot = a fixed point within Nagash´s base

Red = enemy model Nagash wants to charge

Grey= structure in the way (Nagash has to "stick" to the wall at the end of the movement)

1,2,3= Nagash´s positions after different parts of his charge move

 

You want to "move Nagash onto the building, and then far enough forward so that we can tilt his base into a vertical postion". You want to move him with half his base overlapping onto the structure. This is represented in the movement from position 1 to position 2. As you can see, Nagash allready moved 12" (9" + half of his base size (6"/2)) at this point. Then the pink dot moves further 3" (against half of Nagash´s base) horizontally by rotating the base 90° around its center - this way we get from position 2 to position 3. The final position (not presented in the graphic) will be reached by "gliding" down the wall, which is free because it only consists of vertical movement and Nagash flies. 

Am I missing something here?

Ah yes. I was missing the "half of his base size" part. Yeah, you're right. That would be more than 9". 
Ok, so same scenario, but this time the building is only 6" across. With a 9" charge, Nagash gets to position 2, pivots into position 3. He has now spent all of the 9", but can still glide to within 0,5" of the Clanrats because of flying.  Agreed?
Edit: Excuse my shoddy Skaven math. That would still need a 12" Charge. 
Ok, so the same scenarion I outlined above. 6" building. Getting to position 2 would be 9", and then into pos3  would be 12".  THEN he can slide down to within 0,5" because of flying. Right? 

Edited January 24, 2020 by gronnelg

[XReN]

9 hours ago, ACBelMutie said:

Nagash is at 9" from those 5 Clan Rats at 9" and there is a wall between them. If Nagash charge with a 9 (6+3), can he attack the Clan Rats? The base doesn't fit between the wall and the rats and he has not enought movement to flank and attack by the side where he has enough room. I can think he can fly so he can pass the wall, but his base doesn't fit there. Can he use the "climbing rule" to stay stick to the wall and attack the clan rats?

He would need more than 9" to make it there. Here's why:

We know that to get into combat he needs to get withtin 0,5" of clanrats. Because of climbing mechanic I think it is valid to place him on the other side of the wall, his base almost perpendicular to the table.

Than, based on movement rules here

 

He would need to roll enough to get the furthest point of his base over the wall.

IMO that is the only way you can make this charge since you can't stand on top of enemy models nor he will get into 0,5" of clanrats by standing on the wall.

[XReN]

34 minutes ago, ACBelMutie said:

But Nagash can fly, so why can't he attack them? I'll try to draw another image at home to clarify this. 

Greetings 

I said he would need to make a higher roll for a succesfull charge in this situation

[Kasper]

As per core rules, units with the keyword "Fly" ignore terrain and other models whenever a move is made:

A charge move is considered a move:

So if Nagash is 9" from the Clan Rats and he rolls a 9" charge, he will be in base contact despite the wall, since you ignore this terrain piece.

Now the actual positioning on the table is kind of iffy, and I would likely just show it clearly to your opponent, and then move Nagash a bit to the side as to not risk harming your model.  

 

As for your other question, yes Nagash could land ontop of a house, tower, forest or whatever even if the base can't actually stand due to the spot being too tiny or uneven or whatever. 

I'm not certain about 40k but I believe they have a "wobbly model" rule where a model can't be there if it can't stick. In AOS the designers have explained this in an FAQ where you just mark it for your opponent. Like if you have a tower that is 10" tall, you can have models climb it 4" at a time no problem. 

[Kasper]

On 1/16/2020 at 2:19 PM, XReN said:

Here, I hope this illustrates the point  

But now you are ignoring key mechanics of fly. You are measuing vertical distance and taking into account that the terrain is there, both of which the core rules specially state you ignore when making a move. 

[XReN]

Here, I hope this illustrates the point  

EDIT. Man, that would be a sick "Smooth Criminal" charge 

Edited January 16, 2020 by XReN