Comparing Highborn Archers with Peasant Bowman

[Buaku]

Hi folks,

As I compare Highborn Archers from the High Elves warscroll compendium with Peasant Bowman from the Brettonia warscroll compendium I notice that the Highborn Archers are twice as cheap. Also it seems that if you compare their characteristics they seem to be slightly better. More movement and bravery and better to hit roll on the missile weapons.

How can this be?

[Baron Klatz]

Oh that's because Brets never got a point change from when they first got warscrolls though their rules changed along with the legacy updates.

They were worth those points when the games were smaller focused and their arrowstorm was lethal but now they're much too obsolete.

At best it's better to just proxy them as Freeguild huntsmen if not other non-human archers entirely.

[Buaku]

It doesnt seem to make sense. Also if I compare the Battle Pilgrims to the Men-at-Arms both from the Bretonnia warscroll compendium, the Men-at-Arms are more expensive but their bravery and save roll are worse and for the rest it's kind of the same. The game doesn't seem to be balanced. How do you create two armies that are more or less equal?

[Baron Klatz]

Sadly for them you're gonna have to proxy for armies they haven't discontinued. Bretonnia are very likely next in line for Warhammer Legends and being a pure Narrative-only army since they don't sell them anymore nor update rhem competitively so don't want to give people reasons to use Ebay instead. Thus they haven't really balanced them.

Also Men-at-arms are like Bowmen in being ancient point costs but got hit waaay harder by the nerf hammer. Like their original warscrolls let them have relics which turned them into a anti-mage unit because they could help stop spells.

So once again, if you're competitive then proxy them for Freeguild which do get balanced.

That's what most people do with say Living City armies, use the Men-at-arms for that simple earthy soldier look but with more greens and roll them as Freeguild with Wanderer and Sylvaneth back up.

Example:

https://aosshorts.com/army-showcase-the-living-city/

 

Edit: though if you're just playing for fun & narrative or open-games then use their original warscrolls which are much better.

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Ashendant]

6 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Bretonnia are next in line for Warhammer Legends...

They are? Where did you heard this?

[Baron Klatz]

Sorry, that's just gossip. I'll edit it.

At best during the summer GW said they'll be moving all older armies to Warhammer Legends sometime next year so it's pretty obvious which guys are going.

I'll edit it around.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Ashendant]

1 minute ago, Baron Klatz said:

Sorry, that's just gossip. I'll edit it.

At best during the summer GW said they'll be moving all older armies to Warhammer Legends sometime next year so it's pretty obvious which guys are going.

I'll edit it that around.

Oh okay. 

I know they said that they would be put stuff to Legends with Cities of Sigmar, but we have been in radio silence since then. I assume because they choose to prioritize 40k Legends first.

[Baron Klatz]

Yeah, 40k's giving us a little breathing room but we all know that axe is ready to fall. 

[Buaku]

So I'm new to Warhammer and I don't know what your awnsers mean. What does proxy for Freeguild mean? What does move to Legends mean?

I only have the warscrolls compendiums from the official site rules page. Are there others? How do I obtain them?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

[Ashendant]

10 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

Yeah, 40k's giving us a little breathing room but we all know that axe is ready to fall. 

I only care if they have new shop images of old miniatures with round bases and the unit lists for the Lexi anyway.

5 minutes ago, Buaku said:

So I'm new to Warhammer and I don't know what your awnsers mean. What does proxy for Freeguild mean? What does move to Legends mean?

I only have the warscrolls compendiums from the official site rules page. Are there others? How do I obtain them?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

That's the old compendiums, these are the new: https://www.warhammer-community.com/legends/

They don't have points yet, but they were slated to be released after 40k legends which happened in December.

Edited January 11, 2020 by Ashendant

[Baron Klatz]

Just now, Buaku said:

What does proxy for Freeguild mean?

Proxy means to use one model but the warscroll of another.

So like a Bret model but the warscrolls of a Freeguild/Empire soldier for better rules.

People can get more creative too by kitbashing the models and make all new things which have to settle on a official warscrolls even if the new model is based on lore stuff only.

So if you say cut you Bret Bowmen in half and give them Beastmen legs and parts you can say they're a mutant kingdom in Ghyran and can choose to center them in a Brayherd army for chaos or go Order as misunderstood mutants with Kurnothi or Deepkin(on being twisted archers in a hidden kingdom)  warscrolls.

[Buaku]

So if the warscroll compendiums I used are obsolete and the new ones don't have points yet, how do you create two equal army's?

[svnvaldez]

1 hour ago, Buaku said:

How can this be?

Because GW has no interest in balancing these older units. Across the board you will find that legends/compendium warscrolls will not preform like battletome warscrolls with battletome synergies. 

If you like these units then by all means go for it. But know that you are buying and using units that are not in the long term (or even short term) GW plan.

[svnvaldez]

12 minutes ago, Buaku said:

So if the warscroll compendiums I used are obsolete and the new ones don't have points yet, how do you create two equal army's?

There are 3 ways of play. Matched, open, narative.

Only Matched is explicit in its use of points. I can find the citation in the core book if challenged. You can balance by wounds, experience, etc... for open and narative.

Without additional structure imposed through something like matched play pitched battles found in the full rule book GW instructed you to build armies as follows in the free rules:

Edited January 11, 2020 by svnvaldez

[svnvaldez]

32 minutes ago, Buaku said:

So I'm new to Warhammer and I don't know what your awnsers mean. What does proxy for Freeguild mean? What does move to Legends mean?

I only have the warscrolls compendiums from the official site rules page. Are there others? How do I obtain them?

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules

I would instruct any friend to only buy models that you can still get off the shelf at a GW store and that has a warscroll in a modern AOS2.0 black label book.

It is hard to explain all of this over the forum. 

Start small. Buy and paint models you like. Start with those free rules you posted. But be aware that there is a much larger ecosystem to AOS that many old model/warscroll are not a part of and will most likely never become a part of.

[Baron Klatz]

Just now, Buaku said:

So if the warscroll compendiums I used are obsolete and the new ones don't have points yet, how do you create two equal army's?

Oh no, the current Warscrolls compendium from the GW site is fully usable and does have points in both the generals rulebook and Community site. Go to the Warscroll builder and you can make a list using them.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/warscroll-builder/

Just understand the points weren't regulated well like all the other armies were since that's an army they stopped supporting in 2016. So expect uphill battles with them in competitions(Matched play).

In friendlier battles (Narrative and Open) you can still have fun though.

[Buaku]

Ok. I plan to order moulds at Prince August to cast tin miniatures of:

Elven Archers, Dwarfes with axes, Skeletons, Skeletons mounted on horses, Armed Men and Knights mounted on horses.

I would like to have warscrolls that I can use for those models. I've searched the warscroll builder and I cannot find any of these units. Also looked in the new warscroll compendiums and can't find any of them. Where do I find the warscrolls I need for the models I wish to cast with costs to make armies of equal strenght?

[Gecktron]

23 minutes ago, Buaku said:

Ok. I plan to order moulds at Prince August to cast tin miniatures of:

Elven Archers, Dwarfes with axes, Skeletons, Skeletons mounted on horses, Armed Men and Knights mounted on horses.

I would like to have warscrolls that I can use for those models. I've searched the warscroll builder and I cannot find any of these units. Also looked in the new warscroll compendiums and can't find any of them. Where do I find the warscrolls I need for the models I wish to cast with costs to make armies of equal strenght?

Download the official warhammer age of Sigmar app. There you find the most recent warscrolls for almost every unit. 

For dwarven warriors: 

Elven archers are high born archers, skeletons are skeleton warriors, the ones on horses are called black knights. For knights you can either use the bretonnian knights or the Knights of Order. 

Point costs are avaible at www.scrollbuilder.com 

 

But keep im mind, most of the units you are using are not really part of the main game anymore. They are completly fine for narrative play or games with friends but they will handicap you If you want to play competitivly. 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Gecktron

[Buaku]

The problem is I can't find my way in the scrollbuilder. I can't find ANY of the units I'm looking for and don't know where to start finding anything.

[Gecktron]

4 minutes ago, Buaku said:

The problem is I can't find my way in the scrollbuilder. I can't find ANY of the units I'm looking for and don't know where to start finding anything.

Use the App. Enter keywords like Knight or Archer. 

If you found a unit you like look at the Keywords at the bottom. There you find the units faction. On scrollbuilder, every model is part of one of the 4 big factions (ORDER, DEATH, DESTRUCTION, CHAOS) and a smaller faction, which you find in the drop down menu under "add units". 

 

[Baron Klatz]

Just now, Gecktron said:

But keep im mind, most of the units you are using are not really part of the main game anymore. They are completly fine for narrative play or games with friends but they will handicap you If you want to play competitivly. 

Indeed but by the power of proxy and the Mortal Realms narrative he could cobble together an interesting Cities of Sigmar army and count it in Shyish for those "undead" units flavor. (Though the Living City does have background of "sons of the Lichemaster" for Nagashites dwelling there.)

So example idea of his UN-Living City (with fluff ideas):

Axe Dwarves: Ironbreakers, they clear out the city bottoms of ceaseless undead that spawn there.

Elven archers: Sisters of the Watch, emissaries of Ghyran whose life magic wards off the worst of the wild undead that don't visit in peace.

Armed men: Freeguild soldiers, the backbone of the Shyish city acting as guards and standing army.

Knights: Drakespawn knights, mercenary knights that work for the city after riding out from the shadowy unknown corners of the land. Will ride any beast be it horse or scaled monster to battle and get their blood money.

Skeletons: Freeguild, the dead don't rest easy in Shyish and the building of the city awoke these ancient warriors that have decided to bend the skinless knee in exchange for rooms warmer than the cold rustling earth and to see the spirits of their loved ones which travel the town.

Skeleton knights: Wild Riders, an order of undead knights that through mysterious contracts the city council have convinced to defend their new nation. These supernatural cavaliers use their connections to the eldritch death lands to scout for threats, find paths for travelers & armies and make treaties with other undead entities.

By using the Living City rules you have access to Sylvaneth which can be kitbashed as undead tree monsters or warscroll proxy for other undead your skeleton knights bargained with  and the City has a Hidden Ways ability for fast army travel which in this case can be by travel through unearthed tomb catacombs to keep the death city flavor.

Edited January 12, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[robinlvalentine]

8 hours ago, Buaku said:

Ok. I plan to order moulds at Prince August to cast tin miniatures of:

Elven Archers, Dwarfes with axes, Skeletons, Skeletons mounted on horses, Armed Men and Knights mounted on horses.

I would like to have warscrolls that I can use for those models. I've searched the warscroll builder and I cannot find any of these units. Also looked in the new warscroll compendiums and can't find any of them. Where do I find the warscrolls I need for the models I wish to cast with costs to make armies of equal strenght?

Not to be off-brand for these forums, but if you're not interested in Age of Sigmar minis, presumably aren't into the lore, and you (understandably) find the rules confusing, have you considered just going with a different wargame? Systems like SAGA: Age of Magic, Song of Blade & Heroes, Dragon Rampant, and loads more, are designed to allow you to play fantasy battles with whatever minis you have in your collection in a much simpler, easy to understand way.

Age of Sigmar is very much designed to support its own expansive universe and huge range of models, and it's deliberately a very large, complicated beast. If you're basically just looking to get some dwarves, elves, and skeletons on the table and get battling, I'd really recommend looking into other games instead.

[Gaz Taylor]

9 hours ago, Buaku said:

Ok. I plan to order moulds at Prince August to cast tin miniatures of:

Elven Archers, Dwarfes with axes, Skeletons, Skeletons mounted on horses, Armed Men and Knights mounted on horses.

+++ Mod Hat On +++
 

Welcome to the forums but to make it clear, we do not want any discussions about using molds to do recasts. It’s against the rules about copying no matter how old the miniatures are.

As for your questions, a lot of the stuff you are after are in the compendium Warscroll are are supported in the current edition (2nd) unless you want to play open or narrative play. There will be no points for them unless you choose to make some up with your gaming group. 

[The Golem]

2 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

Welcome to the forums but to make it clear, we do not want any discussions about using molds to do recasts. It’s against the rules about copying no matter how old the miniatures are.

Actually Prince August is a french company which sells (among other things) molds and tools to cast specific sets of miniatures. It's basically like Hirst Arts molds but for metal miniatures instead of scenery/dungeon. So there isn't any copyright infringement really.

Edited January 12, 2020 by The Golem
fixed a typo

[EccentricCircle]

6 hours ago, robinlvalentine said:

Not to be off-brand for these forums, but if you're not interested in Age of Sigmar minis, presumably aren't into the lore, and you (understandably) find the rules confusing, have you considered just going with a different wargame? Systems like SAGA: Age of Magic, Song of Blade & Heroes, Dragon Rampant, and loads more, are designed to allow you to play fantasy battles with whatever minis you have in your collection in a much simpler, easy to understand way.

Age of Sigmar is very much designed to support its own expansive universe and huge range of models, and it's deliberately a very large, complicated beast. If you're basically just looking to get some dwarves, elves, and skeletons on the table and get battling, I'd really recommend looking into other games instead.

I'd second this. Warhammer is the most well known fantasy wargame, but is possibly not the best one for what it seems like you want. It doesn't really provide a solid toolbox for mixing and matching different classic fantasy archetypes, and playing battles with them.

It has evolved into its own very specific setting, and style, which only really supports its own product lines. However these have gradually shifted so that more "generic" stuff like your dwarves, knights and skeletons aren't really supported any more.

Basically the writers of the game want you to buy their expensive models which precisely match the keywords of one or other warscroll. They specifically don't want people to buy models from other brands, or make their own models, and then try to find a warscroll that more or less matches them.

Many of the games in the quoted post are much more of a "toolbox" and are probably cheaper to get into overall. Yes you would likely have to buy a book, rather than using the free rules online, but you wouldn't be locked in to expensive GW miniatures, and would probably have better luck finding opponents who aren't as focused on the specifics of the Warhammer setting.

In short you are going to struggle to make the square peg of Age of Sigmar fit into the round hole of the kind of game you seem to be wanting to play.