AoS 2 - Living City Discussion

[Stormlight]

I messed up by including Drycha in the potential combat-focused Behemoth Generals list. She is unique but, like @Doko said,  Durthu can take traits and artifacts. So the list of combat-focused Behemoth Generals that can maximize the combined potential of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt are:

• Durthu
• Freeguild General on Griffon (who was featured in AOSCoach's Living City spotlight video)
• Dreadlord on Black Dragon
• Annointed on Phoenix
• Drakesworn Templar
• Lord-Celestant on Stardrake

Out of those options, the Freeguild General cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away. Does the Lord-Celestant's "Lord of the Heavens" ability count as shooting?

Edited January 12, 2021 by Stormlight

[Kiekeboe]

15 hours ago, Stormlight said:

Who knows, if we keep this conversation up long enough we might even create an optimal 2000 pts. GHB2020 list.

I like this, let's go on a TGA quest to find Living City's best general.

There are a few "requirements" to keep in mind.

• Shooting profile. Lord Celestant on Stardrake/Celestant Prime have shooting abilities so they don't trigger strike and melt away.  Drakesworn Templar/Hurricanum/Durthu/etc. do have a shooting profile so they CAN use the ability.
• Non-named character. Stardrake/Drycha/Alarielle/Celestant-Prime can't take artefacts/command traits, so they're out.
• Preferably non-mount behemoth to maximize the +1 to wound and rend from Ironoak Artisan/Spear of the Hunt. Phoenixes for example only give the wound and rend buff to the anointed, while the phoenix is the one doing the damage. Durthu for example benefits from all of the buffs.
• All of this is keeping in mind that we're looking for a general who can utilize the combat trait/artefact optimally and deepstrike or at least look for a fight. If you want to play a bunker-style game with walls of Phoenix Guard and heaps of Sisters/Irondrakes then you do you of course but these generals/this discussion won't fit your gameplan. 

As @The Red King says, there are only a handful of candidates. Here's my take on the top 5:

• Frost Phoenix:
  (Fire phoenix is disqualified in my opinion because his damage is extremely poor and he can't stall opponents as well as frost one can with the -wound aura.) The Anointed on Frost Phoenix is a wonderful general but because he doesn't have a shooting profile. You also need him near a wizard to get the +1 to save, so no deepstriking for him. And while his damage is better than the fire phoenix, it's still mediocre for his points value. The main reason you'd want to bring one is to rush him into your opponent's danger zone and stall for a turn or 2, while you strike elsewhere and comfortably settle bodies on points and whittle down units with your shooting. Getting him to 2+ save with a 4++ save, on top of the -1 to wound aura is brilliant. I do think, however, that the phoenix can fulfil this task just as while not being the general.
• Drakesworn templar:
  I recently started testing this guy and he's much better than I expected when looking at his scroll (he's still not worth his points, but in Living City he can at least compete). His damage from attacks is laughably low, you'll have combat phases where you dish out 0-2 damage, it's so sad. The thing however is that he has boardwide D3 dmg on D6 targets, which can range from 0 to 18 damage. And he eats models after piling in if you throw higher than the model's wound characteristic. In my most recent game he survived an attack from 6 Varanguards (because 2+ save), I then piled in and ate one of the middle Varanguard so he had to sacrifice 2 more because of coherency loss. And after combat he rolls again for each enemy unit within 3" to deal another D3 damage. As long as you don't run him into 1-model-units you'll see value from him.
• Durthu:
  This guy I've played the most with. He's a bit of a double edged sword (heh). I've had the most wonderful combat phases with him where he does 3 attacks on 3+/2+/-3/6dmg and get 18 dmg through, I've also had combats where he did 0. Him having only 3 attacks and no damaging abilities makes him suuper swingy, but so satisfying when he goes through. What I found is that you can easily deepstrike-shoot-move-charge him where you want him, and he will most likely kill what he get his sword on, but if your opponent screens well they may be able to take him out before the next turn. And his biggest problem is that he only has 5" move so chances are that you'll be walking for 2 turns after you killed the first screen, which feels really bad.
  In Sylvaneth he's mediocre because you can't get his attacks better than 3+/3+ now that ghyrstrike is gone, but you can at least get +2 attacks from wyldwoods, and more from arch-revenant/artifacts which mitigates the swingyness a bit. He also has his wyldwood teleportation to combat his poor move characteristic. In Living City you have none of the teleporting and no buffs to his number of attacks.
  Some things I want to test with this guy are: pair him with a Treelord Ancient to yeet a wyldwood to where you're going to deepstrike him. Pair him with a Hurricanum to get him to 2+/2+, and possibly add Knight-Azyros to the party to reroll the 1s as well. 
• Dreadlord on Black Dragon:
  I don't own this model and have never played TTS games with him as my general, however I can see him working great because he does have the shooting attack, room for artefact/command trait, and strong'ish damage profiles. The thing however is that his strongest attacks are again on the mount, which is a bit of a waste of Ironoak Artisan/Spear of the Hunt. I'd love to hear someone who actually played with this model talk about their experiences.
• Freeguild General on Griffon:
  Again I don't own this one. Looking at his stats I think he ends up being very similar if not slightly weaker when compared to Dreadlord on Black Dragon as he has his strongest attacks on the mount, and unfortunately he doesn't have a shooting profile. 

If I had to rank them from most to least ideal I would probably put them like this:
1: Drakesworn templar
1: Spirit of Durthu
2: Dreadlord on Black Dragon
3: Anointed on Frostheart Phoenix
4: Freeguild General on Griffon

I can't make up my mind on #1 because they require different lists around them and can work great in their own regard, they're both excellent.

Looking forward to your input  Once we end up agreeing on the best 1 or 2 generals we could move on to list speculations.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Kiekeboe

[Doko]

I think durthu is the best general for living city if you want use the shooting and move.

Im thinking getting a sylvaneth start collecting to try him,maybe allarielle also because she is cool and i could use durthu as a treeman proxy and sumon him with her

[The Red King]

Don't know if this is allowed cause I know there's  a buy/sell thread but thought it would most interest someone here.

 

My list has changed to the point I have 20 excess sisters of the watch I'd like to part with and since I know they're a hot commodity I thought I'd let my fellow "wood elf" players know first that I'll be posting them in the proper thread later today when I get home and can photograph them.

 

10 unbuilt NOS (so could also be shadow warriors) and 10 built and primed that for whatever reason the guy I got em from put them on 32mm bases.

[Popisdead]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, Kiekeboe said:

Ok hear me out. Thinking outside the box here. Living City is the only army where you can deepstrike a Luminark of Hysh. What about a list with 4 Luminarks ^{(buying/painting these makes me uncomfortable, but that's besides the point)} where you put all 4 in reserve -> deploy them alongside your opponent in your first turn -> unleash hellfire along 30" lines basically obliterating whatever you want. You still have 1000 points spare to form something of a backup plan or second wave. Or use those points to add insult to injury by adding a Celestant Prime to take out what's left standing for example.

There was someone on the Honest Wargamer (Darren maybe?) who ran 4 Luminarks in a list.  I suspect outside proxying it, in maybe the online game people are using (TTA?) it could be a sleeper hit.  

On 1/7/2021 at 3:13 PM, Aelfric said:

Sisters do MW on a "Wound" roll of 6, not hit roll, so RR1 will not affect MW output.  Just got hold of my Azyros, so still think it's a good choice nonetheless.

If you hit with the rr1 attempt, you have another chance to improve MW output since you're rolling an additional dice.  I guess I said it wrong and was probably thinking it wrong at the time.  

 

On 1/11/2021 at 7:31 AM, Kiekeboe said:

Yep, I agree. I haven't been able to get any real value out of Nomad Prince lists. The thing with unlocking Sisters as battleline is... you still need actual blocks of battleline, 

...

I think including a Nomad Prince means you're not playing Living City to its full potential, you're giving up power somewhere with nothing in return.

I think the Nomad Prince is sort of an unwanted red headed step child.  With a Sorceress Adjutant, and 10 Darkswords to stab, along with a block or two of EG (depending on if you run 10 or 20 or 30 EG) he provides some good combat punch and naturally heals.  I've run him with Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt and he did fine.  Plus he's harder to kill.  Granted I haven't played since Covid so maybe Kroak takes him off (probably,.. ).  I'm also not playing for tournament level current meta.  But that also means a lot of other people here aren't either.  

Having said that,.. I agree with your last point.  It weighs on me every time I look at my army and what I want to play.  Which is the reason I'm finish off my 29th and 30th Eternal guard at the moment so I can run 3x10 or 20, 10 and the 10 Darkswords.  

I guess I feel the NP is okay (and not being great makes him a weaker choice?).  He can ambush with Rangers against a monster and the monster would be -1 to hit vs the Rangers and they would do some serious work on him.  

On 1/11/2021 at 9:28 AM, martinwolf said:

With mostly having played the Nomad Prince as general I sadly have to agree. ...

A lot of rambling, sorry. It's difficult. I really really really miss a Wanderers/Wood Elf archer hero. I wish they would have kept at least the Waywatcher hero. Loved them loads.

Glad to hear.  I think your playstyle mimics what mine is a bit.  I had success back when I was playing with the NP in a block of EG next to my Sorceress.  I had some Wild Riders for counter chargers and was pretty happy with all the options and set up i had.  

 

10 hours ago, Kiekeboe said:

 

• Dreadlord on Black Dragon:
   
• Freeguild General on Griffon:

 

I've finished two Black Dragons with the intent to pair them up (their CA helps both) and with high Movement they can hit stuff nice and hard.  

I've heard the Freeguild General is a good choice as well.  

 

[Aelfric]

17 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

If you hit with the rr1 attempt, you have another chance to improve MW output since you're rolling an additional dice.  I guess I said it wrong and was probably thinking it wrong at the time.  

I see - more chances to hit means more chances to wound, which means more chances to wound on a 6.  Thanks for clearing that up, it makes sense now I follow the logic. 

[Popisdead]

On 1/7/2021 at 2:39 PM, Kiekeboe said:

 

• I started out with lots of Durthu games because in Living City he's a god (ironoak artisan + spear of the hunt) where in Sylvaneth he's just mediocre to poor now that ghyrstrike is gone. I would deepstrike him with 4 concussors and shoot+move+charge everyone in. This would destroy whatever they landed in but Durthu would just spend the next 3 turns walking to his next target, wasting his potential because he's just so damn slow and had to start his journey at a table edge and enemies just stay away from him. 

Durthu is overall better in Sylvaneth in a sense as you mitigate out the issues with movement by naturally having more forests.  He also can get up to 8 attacks in Harvestboon.  This mitigates out the issues with loosing Ghyrstrike.  That part more plays into how big things that lack redundancy in to-hits, or well dice rolls makes them massive gambles.  You can even take 3 Durthu's with some nice items in I think Harvestboon and it does well enough.  

Are you still liking 30 EG?  I nearly have all 30 painted and I've been flipping back and forth with 3x10 or 30 or 20 and some DarkSwords of whatever.  I'm mostly a Wanderer player so my collection isn't CoS-extensible.

[Kiekeboe]

21 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Durthu is overall better in Sylvaneth in a sense as you mitigate out the issues with movement by naturally having more forests.  He also can get up to 8 attacks in Harvestboon.  This mitigates out the issues with loosing Ghyrstrike.  That part more plays into how big things that lack redundancy in to-hits, or well dice rolls makes them massive gambles.  You can even take 3 Durthu's with some nice items in I think Harvestboon and it does well enough.  

Are you still liking 30 EG?  I nearly have all 30 painted and I've been flipping back and forth with 3x10 or 30 or 20 and some DarkSwords of whatever.  I'm mostly a Wanderer player so my collection isn't CoS-extensible.

Agreed on Durthu, I came to that conclusion when writing about potential generals in my post above. His main weakness is his movement and Sylvaneth has ways around that. I'm not ready to give up on him yet, though. I'll be writing more Durthu lists for testing

I pretty much exclusively play with Eternal Guard (and 1 unit of 10 Ironbreakers if I need more battleline) because I just like the elven aesthetic. I've tried 1x30 and 3x10 EG against the same opponent last week (pyrofane cult hero phase shooting kairic acolytes, ouch), and I think both worked great in the plans I set out to do (had a draw and won the other game). When running the 1x30 the goal was to use that block to stall the opponent mid-board and have them waste turns on the EG. In the end they survived in combat for 2 battlerounds , keeping enemies in combat while I could move other units around and strike/shoot elsewhere. When I took 3x10 they sat on objectives and I played a frostheart phoenix to perform the stalling while the rest of the army moved around and took out other threats. 

If you're looking for a unit to tie down an opponent you can absolutely make 30 EG work, but a Phoenix works just as well. It's personal preference there I guess. The big difference between 1x30 and 3x10 is the role you have for them in your game plan. You can make both work and it's great to have the models to try both game plans, keeps the game and list building interesting in my opinion.

Edited January 12, 2021 by Kiekeboe

[Stormlight]

Let me see if I can find the best general with some MathHammer. 

 

Problem statement: Assign each combat-focused, non-unique, Living City General with a score from 0-100, reflecting its overall utility when buffed with Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt.

 

Motivation: Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt are arguably the best Living City Command Trait and Artefact pair. As Living City players, we would like to maximize their benefit.

 

Terminology: By 'buffed,' I mean the +1 to wound rolls, and -1 rend from Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt. Note that the +1 to wound from Ironak Artisan is applied to all of the General's melee weapons. The -1 rend from Spear of the Hunt is applied to a single weapon. Neither bonus affects the General's mount (if they have one). By 'average wounds dealt', I mean the average of wounds dealt to enemy units across all save values. 

 

Assumptions

• For monsters, I will use the numbers from the top damage bracket. Since this is Living City, I expect the Attuned to Nature ability and Lifesurge spell will keep your monsters healthy.
• When calculating damage output, I include all melee and missile attacks for both the rider and the mount. If the model has other damage dealing abilities, I will estimate the average number of wounds.
• These calculations are only for damage-dealing combat potential. I will not factor in defensive ability.
• The calculations are normalized and depend on the Generals included in the computation.
• I will assume the General is charging for weapons that benefit from charging.

 

Methodology: I will normalize (compress to a score between 0 and 1 using the minimum and maximum possible values) and linearly interpolate (assign each factor a weight between 0 and 1 such that all weight sum to 1) the following factors:

1. Average wounds dealt per turn when buffed
   1. Calculation: I will enter each General's profile into AoS Statshammer (with the Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt buffs) and take the average damage output across all opponent save values. 
   2. Justification: The whole point of taking Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt is to create a combat-focused General that can punch through units. 
   3. Interpolation weight: This factor is worth 40% of the total score. 
2. Average standard deviation of wounds dealt per turn
   1. Calculation: I will enter each General's profile into AoS Statshammer (with the Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt buffs) and take the average standard deviation of damage output across all opponent save values.Then I will take 1 - the normalized value (lower deviation is better).
   2. Justification: Some people do not like taking 'swingy' units whose potential depends on how well you are rolling. The average calculations I am using mitigate this somewhat, but units with low attacks and high damage like Durthu will inevitably have 0 damage or 18 damage turns. RNG is part of the fun of Warhammer, but you may want a more reliable general if you're competitively-focused.
   3. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 10% of the total score.
3. Overall combat benefit of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt
   1. Calculation: I will subtract the average damage output across all opponents save values for the General when buffed from the same quantity when unbuffed.
   2. Justification: As a Living City player, you should choose a general whose combat potential is maximized by these buffs. It doesn't make sense to put the buffs on a unit whose mount does the most damage.
   3. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 20% of the total score.
4. Mobility
   1. Calculation: I will select from one of the following fixed values:
      1. If the model has 0-4" movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.
      2. If the model has 4.01-6" movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.1.
      3. If the model has 6.01-10" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away OR if the model has 0-6" movement and can benefit, it will receive a mobility score of 0.4
      4. If the model has 10.01-12" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.5
      5. If the model has more than 12" of movement and cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away OR if the model has 6.01-10" movement and can benefit, it will receive a mobility score of 0.6.
      6. If the model has 10.01-12" of movement and can benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 0.8
      7. If the model has 12+" of movement and can benefit from Strike then Melt Away, it will receive a mobility score of 1
   2. Justification: Your General cannot benefit from Strike then Melt Away if it does not have a missile weapon. As such, Generals without missile attacks will probably start on the table where they will need a high movement value to reach the enemy and start dealing damage. On the other hand, a General with a missile weapon but low movement (like Durthu) may have to burn Command Points to move across the board after deepstriking. Therefore, this category's highest score goes to fast Generals with missile weapons.
   3. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 20% of the total score.
5. Points cost
   1. Calculation: 1 - the normalized points cost. E.g., the cheapest possible General will have a score of 1 and the most expensive will have a score of 0. 
   2. Justification: All things considered, a General needs to be worth its points value. 
   3. Interpolation Weight: This factor is worth 10% of the total score.

 

Model Specific Notes:

• Drakesworn Templar: I will estimate the damage of Lord of the Heavens using the Rain of Stars option and assume Cavernous Jaws is used against models with 1 wound. I can't reliably estimate the damage of Sweeping Tail. I have to assume the Stormlance is not used against a monster.
• Dreadlord on Black Dragon: I can't reliably estimate the damage of Noxious Breath.
• Flamespyre Phoenix: I am not adding the damage from Wake of Fire

 

Now, the table for all Cities of Sigmar Generals, Durthu, and the Drakesworn Templar:

 

  

Conclusion: Clearly, Durthu is the best choice for a general. If you are concerned about Durthu's mobility or think it is too swingy, take the Drakesworn Templar. If you are worried about both choices (e.g., you don't want to pay 420 points for the Drakesworn), take the Dreadlord on Black Dragon with Lance and Crossbow. Interestingly, the Warden King and Assassins are the best foot Generals, with the Freeguild General and Nomad Prince close behind.

 

I may add the other Stormcast Eternal choices when the battletome I ordered arrives at the end of this week. What do you think about my approach and choices for each factor's weight? 

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Stormlight
Made it seem like GW was dropping a new Stormcast battletome :P

[Doko]

I would prefer a easier method,only get your number 1 stat(avg damage)\point cost of the unit and that is the 80% and then the movility is the other 20%.

Also models as the black dragon with 10+ move i think prefer use the shield for the +1 save and spend the comand point in other skill.

To me the living city comand trait is only for durthu,other behemoths dont need it

[Stormlight]

40 minutes ago, Doko said:

I would prefer a easier method,only get your number 1 stat(avg damage)\point cost of the unit and that is the 80% and then the movility is the other 20%.

Also models as the black dragon with 10+ move i think prefer use the shield for the +1 save and spend the comand point in other skill.

To me the living city comand trait is only for durthu,other behemoths dont need it

I'll admit my method may be overkill. As you increase the importance of points cost, the Dreadlord overtakes the Drakesworn Templar. 

My formula doesn't account for bracketing, either. Durthu is incredibly vulnerable to damage. Once bracketed (3 wounds), it becomes considerably worse than the other bracketed top candidates (Dreadlord, Drakesworn). The Drakesworn has the highest resistance to bracketing: it can take up to 8 wounds and only lose 1" movement and 1 Cavernous Jaw attack. 

The Drakesworn may not be worth its 420 points. For 120 more points than Durthu or a Dreadlord you get higher and more reliable damage output (about 2 extra wounds per turn compared to the Dreadlord). You also receive the situational Dracothian Guard, and Arcane Lineage buffs. But that 120 points can go a long way (a Sorceress with some leftover points, most of a Sisters of the Watch unit, etc...) 

You can ambush all three of the top General choices since they have shooting attacks. If necessary, the Drakesworn and Dreadlord can also start on the table. Because of its vulnerability to bracketing, I think Durthu HAS to start in the hidden paths. If you know the Dreadlord is starting on the table I would use the shield instead of the crossbow, like you said. If you want to start with your General on the table I would personally lean more towards the Freeguild General on Griffon with the Sigmarite Runesword. It's Command Ability and Battleline unlocks are better than the Dreadlord. 

[Zeblasky]

On 10/9/2020 at 12:14 AM, Popisdead said:

Um,.. well you sort of can.  First,.. it's good to look at things your way.  I agree that building the tools in works.  And I really like you are looking at things differently.  I'm all for hearing how it works out.  The problem is that means it isn't a real comparison like you've done.  You are comparing 160 points of sisters to 650 points (treelord, dragon, Frostphoenix).  If so then 50 SotW are going to do some serious leg work compared to what you've listed.  

Treelords don't put out the same dmg as SotW.  That just won't happen otherwise you would see 4 Treelord lists in Sylvaneth but instead we see often comments about how effective SotW shooting is. 

To be honest I've seen two occurrences of Treelords in lists in the last 4 years.  And they were recently after the points drop in some variation of Lord of the Clan or whatever the formation that has two TLAs and a TL.  

If you want to use a Treelord by all means use them, share bat reps.   If you are making them work that's great.  But they are an ineffective unit and you have to work to make them useful.  

 

Sigh. I should fight my laziness and respond much more frequently than 4 month later. Oh well…

 

So, yea, that sure is not quite a fair comparison. It was more about explaining how well treelord fits with the rest of my army and what is his actual role. And of course you can make an argument here that 50 Sisters for those points instead in theory initially will do more damage and can control objectives much more reliably. But there is quite a few arguments against that.

First is that simply spamming mostly one unit, even if it’s broken (and Sisters are not) is not a wise strategy. It’s too one sided and easy to exploit. Also boring. Second, unless in cover, Sisters are not tanky at all and will fall rather quicky to a coordinated assault, especially if the enemy has a lot of low rend shooting, as Sisters are especially vunerable to it. They need to be protected as long as possible. Third, some of them will have to sacrifice either their mobility or their damage, as you won’t have enough deepstrike and CPs for the all. And fourth, they do not benefit from Living City passive healing at all (also the spell won’t help either, you need Emerald Lifeswarm, which is a big gamble overall). Granted, it’s not a lot, but if you have a few multi wound units constantly fighting, those extra 3-5 wounds per turn can help quite a bit in the long run.

 

But I heavily digress. The thing in question is that treelord does not output the same amount of damage as SotW. Let's do some math and see how much damage on average each can do in player turn.

Save	Treelord	Sisters just shooting	Sisters shooting and melee	Sisters shooting and overwatch next turn
2+	3.79	3.89	4.31	5.93
3+	5.36	5.44	6.28	8.3
4+	6.93	7	8.25	10.67
5+	8.5	8.56	10.22	13.04
6+	10	10.11	12.19	15.41
-	10	11.67	14.17	17.78

 

As you can see, damage between volley of stationary sisters and full damage potential of an undamaged treelord is incredibly close, as I've said. If you use a CP and throw Sisters in melee as you would Treelord, you get an extra wound or two. If instead sisters get charged next turn, they deal 2 to 5.5 extra wounds instead.

So, if you use them to their full potential, Sisters indeed deal a bit more damage on the player turn. But on the enemy turn Treelord should generally outdamage Sisters (unless he’s heavily bracketed), as Treelord melee is much more powerful. So, Sisters can deal a bit better alpha, but after being engaged in melee they will instantly die most of the time, while Treelord will cathup/outdamage them in the next combat phase. And he will probably be still alive and fighting for a few more turns, casusing even more damage.

It all depends on a lot of factors of course. In the best case scenario, you deploy 10 Sisters, shoot with them, move them with CA into cover for a +1 save, then they get charged by light armoured enemy, which they get to shoot and then attack before losing any models in the combat phase. In that case even I would agree that Sisters could be quite a viable alternative. But how often can that happen? You might not get any cover, your opponent might simply shoot them, he can fly over / move around them anyway to disrupt 20 SotW in the back. Treelord as a roadblock is much more reliable.

So, in short, in the roadblock role Treelord in most cases will deal around the same or more damage within a battle round, will tie up enemies more efficiently and will tank waaaaay better, thus surviving for longer and dealing more damage overall. I was even thinking about adding a second Treelord for more screening and boggind down.

 

P.S. By the way, I've forgot to mention about how well Treelord Stomp synergizes with my Behemoth screen rush strategy. On my first turn, if Stomp goes through, Dreadlord with Spear of the Hunt always fight first on the charge, then I pick any other unit (preferably Phoenix if it made the charge), and the Treelord, who still took no damage thanks to the enemy unit fighting last. That means that 3 of my Behemoths can fight before melee retaliation in most situations. Which is pretty nice.

 

Edited January 14, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Popisdead]

16 hours ago, Zeblasky said:

But I heavily digress.

I'm not sure you accomplished that.

I'm happy you love the treelord.  I wish they were better these days and taking them was valid.  

[Stormlight]

@Zeblasky makes some great points. Its important to keep in mind that the design of the Living City ruleset seems to push two distinct concepts:

• Sneaky ambushes with the Hidden Paths which can be one of two varieties:
  •  Overwhelming shooting that obliterates an entire unit(s) therefore immediately recovering your points investment. It doesn't matter if your opponent minces a block of Sisters of the Watch in combat if the Sisters have already removed a comparable number of points from your opponent. If you set up your ambush optimally, your opponent may not even be able to counterattack. As said previously, however, you won't make friends spamming Sisters and if you rely too heavily on them you may find yourself hard-countered by certain armies.
  • Ambush charges with Strike then Melt Away from heavy hitting units with a missile attack like Durthu, Dracothian Guard, etc...  Ideally, you can screen your ambush shooting units with your ambush charging units such that the shooting units are protected from counterattacks and do not need to use Strike then Melt Away themselves. This is a CP-intensive strategy which is unfortunate because CP are at a premium in the Living City. 
• Multi-wound models to maximize the benefit of Attuned to Nature which is a powerful passive ability. If your units have multiple wounds you force your opponent to over-concentrate their damage output.

It's not clear in what ratio these two concepts can be optimally leveraged. For example, you could go all-in on Attuned to Nature by only selecting multiwound units (which is possible with the battleline unlocks from certain generals). Alternatively, you could go all-in on ambushing by only starting with cheap and/or mobile MSU on the table (Aetherwings, Tree-Revenants, Freeguild Guard, etc..)  and ambushing all of your expensive heavy-hitters. Any unit selection that does not fulfill one or both of the previously discussed concepts seems sub-optimal. 

I don't have enough experience with this army yet to know how I can maximize the strengths of the Living City and minimize the weaknesses.  I have some basic intuitions like, for example, Dracothian Guard seem like a must-pick because they combine both of the advantages of the LC. Also, Durthu seems like a good choice for a General because it maximizes the utility of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt (compared to, say the Dreadlord whose damage primarily comes from the mount). The Drakesworn Templar is a more consistent (and expensive) option for a General, but taking Durthu preserves your precious Stormcast slots:  Aetherwings are a steal for 40 points, Concussors are an excellent ambushing candidate, and the buff of the Knight Azyros is incredible. 

[Zeblasky]

On 1/12/2021 at 12:05 PM, Kiekeboe said:

 

• Frost Phoenix:
  (Fire phoenix is disqualified in my opinion because his damage is extremely poor and he can't stall opponents as well as frost one can with the -wound aura.) The Anointed on Frost Phoenix is a wonderful general but because he doesn't have a shooting profile. You also need him near a wizard to get the +1 to save, so no deepstriking for him. And while his damage is better than the fire phoenix, it's still mediocre for his points value. The main reason you'd want to bring one is to rush him into your opponent's danger zone and stall for a turn or 2, while you strike elsewhere and comfortably settle bodies on points and whittle down units with your shooting. Getting him to 2+ save with a 4++ save, on top of the -1 to wound aura is brilliant. I do think, however, that the phoenix can fulfil this task just as while not being the general.
• Dreadlord on Black Dragon:
  I don't own this model and have never played TTS games with him as my general, however I can see him working great because he does have the shooting attack, room for artefact/command trait, and strong'ish damage profiles. The thing however is that his strongest attacks are again on the mount, which is a bit of a waste of Ironoak Artisan/Spear of the Hunt. I'd love to hear someone who actually played with this model talk about their experiences.
  Durthu:
  This guy I've played the most with. He's a bit of a double edged sword (heh). I've had the most wonderful combat phases with him where he does 3 attacks on 3+/2+/-3/6dmg and get 18 dmg through, I've also had combats where he did 0.
  Some things I want to test with this guy are: pair him with a Treelord Ancient to yeet a wyldwood to where you're going to deepstrike him. Pair him with a Hurricanum to get him to 2+/2+, and possibly add Knight-Azyros to the party to reroll the 1s as well. 

 

1) I would not have disqualified Fire Phoenix that easy, even if I myself prefer the Frost one here. Sure, Frost one is more reliable and defense oriented, and it protects everyone around him. But Fire one is more about agression and constantly switching targets. If you play him right, with his Mortal Wounds on a fly by he will deal much more damage than a Frost one, but it's trickier to execute. Good ranged firepower support (or a mobile goon squad) could help a lot here, as you could fly over, charge, finish off an already weakened target, repeat next turn. And of course a 50% rebirth chance could turn a lot of games around.  So, with the right setup he could be quite viable, but that's the thing - you kinda need to tune a part of your army around Fire Phoenix for him to work well, and your opponent can still counter this to a degree. While with a Frost Phoenix you just send him in the heart of the battle(or for a flank overload) and leave him till it's done. Much easier to pull off.

2) Spear of the Hunt is great for Dreadlord Lance attack on the charge though. On a deepstriking charge you fight first with almost complete guarantee of not being brackered and with a Lance that deals 2 Damage with -3 Rend on a 3+/3+. Lance is a bit swingy with landing attacks, but -3 rend is a rare thing to have, and it's great for pretty much a secondary weapon. And if you can make him your general, 3+ save will help Dreadlord to stay alive a lot longer.  I do wish we could take both a crossbow and a Shield on him though x)

3) Pretty much this. If you're lucky, Durthu will destroy the first targer in a single swing (having Both Spear and Artisan on him helps quite a lot with that). But he still gets screwed hard by his bracketing (after a first bracket average damage of a basic Durthu is a bit worse than a 180p Treelord) and partially by his mobility (you can still move him 10 by Strike Then Melt Away), so he's kinda like a 1 shot pony that's not really worth his points (unless of course you can heal him back a few times). Setups with Ancient Treelord are interesting though.  And your setup sounds great, as with it Durthu becomes a terrifying  area denying (or foolish army destroying) tool. Almost guaranteed 30 damage with -3 rend on charge is crazy. It's still risky, but with a much better risk-reward ratio, so I love it. It's very exiting. 

Buuuut. That's a pretty specific expensive setup and your opponent can outplay you by just killing the Ancient before he deploys the Wood in the right spot (and you kinda need him on the board from the start) or just by keeping his most expensive units in the middle of the board or behind cheap screens (also a bit spread out MSU armies could be too inefficient to fight anyway). Durthu can't fly after all and getting to good targets unbracketed could be a problem. So for this setup to work you probably need to make your enemy come to your striking distance in one big group. Probably with a lot of concentrated ranged firepower on board edges? In such case Hurricanum will be an even better force multiplier and ranged fire can clear all the screens away.
 

On 1/12/2021 at 10:40 PM, Popisdead said:

I think the Nomad Prince is sort of an unwanted red headed step child.  With a Sorceress Adjutant, and 10 Darkswords to stab, along with a block or two of EG (depending on if you run 10 or 20 or 30 EG) he provides some good combat punch and naturally heals.  I've run him with Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt and he did fine.  Plus he's harder to kill.  Granted I haven't played since Covid so maybe Kroak takes him off (probably,.. ).  I'm also not playing for tournament level current meta.  But that also means a lot of other people here aren't either. 

Yea, Nomad Prince is a fine hero on his own and it's very useful to have Wanderers as a battle line in any case, but unless you go a bit out of your way to provide him with Adjutant and cheap retinue, he's wasted synergies in an army that's all about moving fast, ambushing and hitting hard on the opponent side of the table (or at least somewhere in the middle). It's interesting though that both giving him such synergy and just taking him completely solo, thus reinforcing your mobile or alpha strike force, are both valid army building strategies.

And not having Ironoak Artisan on your Hero monsters obviously sucks too. But as an alternative to Artisan you can get an extra mage out of this situation, so overall it's stilla viable trade off.

 

On 1/13/2021 at 7:05 AM, Stormlight said:

*MathHammer stuff*

Great work! I wish I could actually use this data though x) I cannot sacrifice Wanderers battleline both for the sake of composition and in case of certain battleplans.
 

 

4 hours ago, Stormlight said:

It's not clear in what ratio these two concepts can be optimally leveraged. For example, you could go all-in on Attuned to Nature by only selecting multiwound units (which is possible with the battleline unlocks from certain generals).

I was actually thinking about how well that strategy would work with full on MSU multi wound army. No one tried to maximize that free healing yet, so perhaps with certain choices you could outattrition most armies. Taking some shooting multi wound units (like Pistoliers) would also be key here, as CoS armies can't fight everyone in melee even with healing, so certain ranged component is a must. Emerald Lifeswarm could also be quite useful to constantly bring models on anything but the roll of 1. Gotta brainstorm it tomorrow...

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Zeblasky

[Popisdead]

On 1/14/2021 at 5:49 PM, Zeblasky said:

I was actually thinking about how well that strategy would work with full on MSU multi wound army. No one tried to maximize that free healing yet, so perhaps with certain choices you could outattrition most armies. 

oh definitely it works best.  I think once again it brings up how LC is a slightly confused city.  Wanderers themselves don't have a lot of MW models so it suggest it's a tool to help the larger MW things you bring in like SCE and Sylvaneth.  A lot of older Wood Elf players want their army to exist and that means you aren't maximizing the meta-strengths of the city.  

 

[Stormlight]

Now that I've read through the Stormcast book and the Cities of Sigmar book, I have to say I'm very impressed by the Dracothian Guard. The melee variants with Storm Blast (Concussors, Desolators, Fulminators) seem like an auto-include in the Living City. Out of all of the units that can be set up in the Hidden Paths AND use Strike then Melt Away, Dracothian Guard are the most efficient melee damage dealers point-for-point.

2 Concussors, not charging, deal roughly the same average wounds (~10) as a Dreadlord on Black Dragon with Lance of Spite WHEN it is charging. They even have a better save and cost 80 points less.

Maybe it's not necessary to take any of the choices for General that I have been mathhammering. Maybe it's better to save your points for a deepstriking force of Concussors (or whatever flavor of Dracothian Guard you prefer), some Sisters of the Watch, and a cheap hero (or maybe a Hurricanum) to use the command ability. Squeezing the maximum utility out of Ironoak Artisan and Spear of the Hunt is a worthy objective, but so is maximizing the effectiveness of your army on a point-by-point basis. I'll need to think some more on this.

 

[The Red King]

As someone working on 4 medium high effort conversions to make my dracoth fit into my wood elves army I hope you're right about the quality.

 

I mean I've read all the theory crafting but I've never actually seen or read a battle report with them so hopefully they work as well as they seem they would.

[Stormlight]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

As someone working on 4 medium high effort conversions to make my dracoth fit into my wood elves army I hope you're right about the quality.

 

I mean I've read all the theory crafting but I've never actually seen or read a battle report with them so hopefully they work as well as they seem they would.

MiniWarGaming has a Living City vs Blades of Khorne report with a list containing Concussors. The list also has Durthu and a Treelord Ancient for the same strategy @Zeblasky was proposing.

 

[The Red King]

4 minutes ago, Stormlight said:

MiniWarGaming has a Living City vs Blades of Khorne report with a list containing Concussors. The list also has Durthu and a Treelord Ancient for the same strategy @Zeblasky was proposing.

 

Oh sweet thanks!

[Popisdead]

5 hours ago, Stormlight said:

MiniWarGaming has a Living City vs Blades of Khorne report with a list containing Concussors. The list also has Durthu and a Treelord Ancient for the same strategy @Zeblasky was proposing.

Truth be told I keep rolling up a Treelord after @Zeblasky went on his Treelord championing.  They are okay.  VS 5+ infantry they can maybe kill 10 in a phase of shooting and CC.    Problem is that's it...  I still keep wanting them to be better but I'm actually glad he defended them like he did.  I shouldn't have crapped on them.  

There is also nothing wrong with taking MSU SotW units.  20-40 isn't a bad list, it's a CoS list.  Wanderer players used to run 90 Glade Guard in 8th.    Or even 60 in AoS 1.0.  Don't think spamming is negative game play.  I don't care what people take so long as they are d***s.  

MGM is notorious for fluff gaming over tactical.  I love them and watch their bat reps but they are a visual and fun Bat Rep, not tournament level.  I'm not dismissing that as that's me now.  I got sick of cheating and WAAC players at tournaments and quit them and only play for visually fun.  But I wouldn't take their tactics as strong, but perhaps useful.

[Stormlight]

12 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

MGM is notorious for fluff gaming over tactical.  I love them and watch their bat reps but they are a visual and fun Bat Rep, not tournament level.

Matthew, the MiniWarGaming guy who plays Cities of Sigmar, admits his goal is to lean into each city's theme and build a "casually competitive" list. Of course you have to take recommendations and choices of a for-entertainment battle report with a grain of salt, since no one wants to watch a one-sided game. I take the fact he chose Concussors, Durthu, and a Treelord Ancient as proof they are at least moderately competitive. I wish he would have chosen additional Wanderers too.

16 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

There is also nothing wrong with taking MSU SotW units.  20-40 isn't a bad list, it's a CoS list.  Wanderer players used to run 90 Glade Guard in 8th.    Or even 60 in AoS 1.0.  Don't think spamming is negative game play.  I don't care what people take so long as they are d***s.  

I'm pretty sure I'll be taking 20-40 SotW in my lists. They are too good not too. Like you said, there's a difference between  the competitive and WAAC mindsets. Shooting can be annoying to play against (I still have PTSD from the Empire gunlines of old Warhammer Fantasy Battle), but there are plenty of ways to play around it nowadays. Except maybe the new LRL Sentinels, which seem insane. I'm more worried about the cost and hobby fatigue of building and painting lots of Sisters! 

25 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

Truth be told I keep rolling up a Treelord after @Zeblasky went on his Treelord championing.  They are okay.  VS 5+ infantry they can maybe kill 10 in a phase of shooting and CC.    Problem is that's it...  I still keep wanting them to be better but I'm actually glad he defended them like he did.  I shouldn't have crapped on them.  

With so many unit choices at our disposal, it's hard to have a nuanced opinion about everything. Im grateful we have this space to discuss less mainstream choices. 

 

Getting back to our discussion around Generals and list building, maybe we can collectively build two lists? One where we try and make the most competitive list possible for tournaments, and one where we build a casually competitive list for a friendly night of gaming. I'm still torn on whether the General should be a melee behemoth with a shooting attack, or whether we should take a cheap foot commander and spend the point elsewhere.

[The Red King]

Update. These fulminators better be worth it. I had to cut up an re-carve one "antler" multiple times.

 

Note this is WIP and certain areas will be getting smoothed up a little before being ready for paint.

Also wanted to add that if anyone has any wild rider champion (big antlers) helmets they're willing to part with I'm going to need 2 more to finish this squad.

Edited January 22, 2021 by The Red King

[The Red King]

I hope this isnt spam but I built the second fulminator and primed them both so heres half the final squad (pending bits). Behold my Twilight Heralds stormcast* allies reformed from a tribe of humans who adopted elven customs when they were taken in by wanderers of Athel Mirai and formed the Order of Twilight fighting under the dual souled Dragon and Rider Naestrahan (see my earlier dragon conversion drawing inspiration from the sisters of twilight, maybe I should make a hobby log). Called up when they died in defense of their hidden forest monastery leading to the sacrifice of their grandmaster they have since returned to the ruins in Ghyran and serve once more, pledging their blades to those same Elves and riding to battle atop forest dracoth who trace their lineage back to the Dragon Arahan herself. 

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by The Red King

[KydbrookP]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

I hope this isnt spam but I built the second fulminator and primed them both so heres half the final squad (pending bits). Behold my Twilight Heralds stormcast* allies reformed from a tribe of humans who adopted elven customs when they were taken in by wanderers of Athel Mirai and formed the Order of Twilight fighting under the dual souled Dragon and Rider Naestrahan (see my earlier dragon conversion drawing inspiration from the sisters of twilight, maybe I should make a hobby log). Called up when they died in defense of their hidden forest monastery leading to the sacrifice of their grandmaster they have since returned to the ruins in Ghyran and serve once more, pledging their blades to those same Elves and riding to battle atop forest dracoth who trace their lineage back to the Dragon Arahan herself. 

 

Well personally I’d be very happy to see these in progress every step of the way. They look awesome - and I’m digging the backstory too. How’s the dragon coming along, he was looking great too?