The Rumour Thread

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, KingBrodd said:

We all play GW because of miniatures and not rules. Rules change, plastic is (unfortunately for the planet) forever!!

I don't know. Some factions (specifically the ones with fresh kits only) don't really need new minis. I have a KO army and it looks... complete. I know that GW can explore further, and it would be nice, but the faction is perfectly playable and fun for many years to come the way it is. The same goes for OBR (I'm working on these guys at the moment). Just some work on the rules, please. 

[Beliman]

3 minutes ago, Flippy said:

it would be nice, but the faction is perfectly playable

Imho, rules feel "buged". With weird rules like Kharadron Overlords summoning Chaos Spawns or some Set-up interactions that don't follow the same pattern as other set-up abilities (disengage).

Maybe I'm alone but I bought the army mainly because the models. Rules can be a trap, just remember what happened with Mortars and how many people needed to chop their arms to make them legal (again).

And about who "needs" new models, that's the main thing. Pretty sure that GW can cut all Saurus and Kroxigors from Seraphons range and writte a book completely playable. Look at Giants, they have 2 kits.

And that's what I'm against, even if the book feels playable and fun.

[novakai]

I mean if they are willing to give Lumeneath 2 more temple plus the Tyrionic nations, then bloatness doesn’t exist for any other army in AoS lol

32 minutes ago, Flippy said:

I don't know. Some factions (specifically the ones with fresh kits only) don't really need new minis. I have a KO army and it looks... complete. I know that GW can explore further, and it would be nice, but the faction is perfectly playable and fun for many years to come the way it is. The same goes for OBR (I'm working on these guys at the moment). Just some work on the rules, please. 

you say that now, it get boring pretty fast around two editions later (Ironjawz players)

Edited November 29, 2022 by novakai

[xking]

I don't believe in bloat. I demand more models for every army.   

[Flippy]

12 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Imho, rules feel "buged". With weird rules like Kharadron Overlords summoning Chaos Spawns or some Set-up interactions that don't follow the same pattern as other set-up abilities (disengage).

Currently the rules feel bugged, yes. That's why we need a new tome.

13 minutes ago, Beliman said:

Maybe I'm alone but I bought the army mainly because the models. Rules can be a trap, just remember what happened with Mortars and how many people needed to chop their arms to make them legal (again).

I don't know anything about that; while I bought them a long time ago, I only started playing with the third edition. Anyway, does anybody really care about the specific weapon loadout on the minis?

15 minutes ago, Beliman said:

And about who "needs" new models, that's the main thing. Pretty sure that GW can cut all Saurus and Kroxigors from Seraphons range and writte a book completely playable. Look at Giants, they have 2 kits.

And that's what I'm against, even if the book feels playable and fun.

That is true and SoB are definitely a bridge (or two bridges) two far in this regard.

[Flippy]

4 minutes ago, novakai said:

you say that now, it get boring pretty fast around two editions later (Ironjawz players)

You can always rotate your armies. I have a feeling that this the recommended / encouraged solution for the new factions with limited range.

[Gothmaug]

2 minutes ago, novakai said:

I mean if they are willing to give Lumeneath 2 more temple plus the Tyrionic nations, then bloatness doesn’t exist for any other army in AoS lol

you say that now, it get boring pretty fast around two editions later (Ironjawz players)

I have to agree. My Ironjaws was my first army, all customized and meticulously painted.  (heck, back then I could ally in gitmob gits and bring archers/siege weaponry with my ironjaws..ahh the memories...) But 4 years in I rarely play them now, as using the same 4 units and 3 heroes over and over again grows old. I moved to Soulblight Gravelords and Chaos armies due to the depth of models and plethora of different playstyles. But each year I pray for a new Ironjawz update, even just a simple Calvary boss on a gore grunta would refresh things a bit. 

Heck for varieties sake, I sometimes play just plain general destruction, just so I can mix all my Ironjawz, gloomspite and gargant models into one big force. The list is terrible, but its fun to mix it up once in a while and see all those old green skin forces back together in one army again., 

And yes, I know there's big Waagh options with Kruelboyz/bonesplitters, but its not the same aesthetic. 

[novakai]

Well we are probably too early in AoS that every army bar Stormcast  need more models and a second wave in their range regardless of range bloat. Rules are fine but they are  often secondary in the hobby as most people don’t play the game or in enough frequency for an overprice battletome to be worth it outside of being a collector. Especially since in this edition of AoS where they have reduce design space and unique rules in order to easily balance of the game. 
 

9 minutes ago, Flippy said:

You can always rotate your armies. I have a feeling that this the recommended / encouraged solution for the new factions with limited range.

That not really a solution of go play something else

at least let not go defending that GW lack of expansion on smaller army or the lack of releases as a good thing because hurr durr rules should be the priority 

Edited November 29, 2022 by novakai

[Gitzdee]

3 minutes ago, Gothmaug said:

Heck for varieties sake, I sometimes play just plain general destruction, just so I can mix all my Ironjawz, gloomspite and gargant models into one big force. The list is terrible, but its fun to mix it up once in a while and see all those old green skin forces back together in one army again., 

And yes, I know there's big Waagh options with Kruelboyz/bonesplitters, but its not the same aesthetic. 

I also miss the times where u could throw any greenskinz at an opponent. What list did u use? 

[Beliman]

16 hours ago, Flippy said:

Currently the rules feel bugged, yes. That's why we need a new tome.

So, we agree!! No models and no rules sucks!! 

16 hours ago, Flippy said:

Anyway, does anybody really care about the specific weapon loadout on the minis?

2017 Kharadrons, we used to play with Thunderes with only Mortars, Riggers with 2+ Grapnels and Arkanauts with 3 skyhooks per 10 models.

A few weeks later, Mortars were tweaked to only 1 for every 5. Few months later, Arkanauts could only take 1 for every 10 models. 2d edition book took away the 24" pseudo-teleport from Grapnels.

Loadouts and special weapons is part of our identity, it's just that every AoS update took away a bit of this loadouts. Btw, I'm happy about that, they are tedious because nobody should be chopping and clipping their miniatures because some new rules. Until GW find a way to make it fun (rolling for 5 or 6 profiles for just one is NOT fun), I prefer 3ed profiles.

16 hours ago, Flippy said:

You can always rotate your armies. I have a feeling that this the recommended / encouraged solution for the new factions with limited range.

Some people like me understands that GW don't want to support our armies. That's why I "rotate" to Asoiaf, Conquest and Malifaux (and reading One Page Rules).

Edited November 30, 2022 by Beliman
grammar

[Flippy]

20 minutes ago, novakai said:

That not really a solution of go play something else

at least let not go defending that GW lack of expansion on smaller army or the lack of releases as a good thing because hurr durr rules should be the priority 

I will not defend them as I have mixed feelings on this approach. What I meant is that it seemed to an intended approach. It’s far easier now to complete the army (even money-wise) than back in the days of WHFB - and once it is complete you can either pray for the second wave or just start something else for a change.

[novakai]

40 minutes ago, Flippy said:

I will not defend them as I have mixed feelings on this approach. What I meant is that it seemed to an intended approach. It’s far easier now to complete the army (even money-wise) than back in the days of WHFB - and once it is complete you can either pray for the second wave or just start something else for a change.

I don’t think it’s an intended approach, since we all know Stormcast and Space Marine are never ever going to be complete or that people will ever pray for new models those army.

yes you can play other armies or other game system, but that doesn’t mean your current army is complete and have to wait 10 years to get a single new model or more units. Yes they can’t alway update every army every edition but getting into 2 edition you would think getting more then one hero would be plausible.

I also don’t know why specifically  their an argument that KO just need rule update and that plastic won’t help them when they have the Tau problem and could use more plastic to help them out

[MythicKhan]

Army variety is important to sustain interest and broaden a faction's appeal. Sadly some armies (e.g. KO but Fyreslayers even more so) are very one note with their unit options at present.

That doesn't mean they are bad per se, but it does limit the appeal and interest I think. Especially personally when background and lore is very important it can be uninspiring to be forced into the same straitjacket. Especially when wider hooks are present in official lore for many other possibilities yet to be seen!

It does occasionally appear strange that some armies are given a healthy range of options a lot faster than others, but as has been said, everyone gets their turn eventually.

And rules writing recently has been ace for actually fitting established lore and models!

(My preferred solution to everything is MOAR DWARVES anyway so . I need more Dispossessed, Kharadron, Fyreslayers, and even Dawi-Zharr!)

[novakai]

granted it is pretty bold to say everyone gets their turn eventually (yes time is infinity and all) looking at what happened to Harlequins in 40K

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, novakai said:

I don’t think it’s an intended approach, since we all know Stormcast and Space Marine are never ever going to be complete or that people will ever pray for new models those army.

Aren’t these the exceptions that prove the rule? Also, is there any obligation on GW side (or should we at least have reasonable expectation) to bring all the factions to a certain standard?

I’ve said it before - not all armies are created equal. GW can surprise in a positive manner, but I would not buy Ironjawz or FEC with any hope for a second wave.

[Ganigumo]

A lot of what drives their decision is sales.
Armies that are popular and sell well get more frequent updates. Its probably why Gitz got a second wave fast tracked, as they managed to stay incredibly popular despite the abysmal rules.
Fyreslayers (as an example) are probably going to be left high and dry for quite a while. Sure you could maybe breathe new life and popularity into them with a new wave, but its probably safer to spend that effort on another popular range.

[novakai]

33 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Aren’t these the exceptions that prove the rule? Also, is there any obligation on GW side (or should we at least have reasonable expectation) to bring all the factions to a certain standard?

I’ve said it before - not all armies are created equal. GW can surprise in a positive manner, but I would not buy Ironjawz or FEC with any hope for a second wave.

I agree there bias for certain armies and armies are not created equal. But GW doesn’t set up what it means to be completed either as they don’t go the Parabellum route of listed everything they will ever produce for Conquest. GW historically going by both 40K and WHF, have always been more expansive with army ranges and build upon what already there.

there  is nothing that GW ever did or implied that Ironjawz or FEC would not get second waves, that notion itself is rubbish. (Ironjawz have also been unfairly miss out upon because even they have had less model update then almost every army in AoS since they never got a random foot hero since their launch)

Also none of this argument means KO is complete and doesn’t get a second wave. Them getting a foot hero in 3rd editions is reality of the limitation of GW not some design or intention on GW part.

Edited November 29, 2022 by novakai

[Jagged Red Lines]

28 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Fyreslayers (as an example) are probably going to be left high and dry for quite a while.

They need a stormcast-type redesign. There's never been a bigger mismatch between the narrative and the models imo. 

You buy into them because of the axes and beards, and then you realise you've been sold badly-proportioned middle aged men in nappies.

I painted about 30 of them and then had some sort of existential crisis. They're just too weird.

I'd love for them to get a full rework.

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Jagged Red Lines

[SunStorm]

53 minutes ago, novakai said:

Ironjawz have also been unfairly miss out upon because even they have had less model update then almost every army in AoS since they never got a random foot hero since their launch

Not new hero warscrolls, but we've had 2 nice sculpts with the limited edition minis. 

Mounted hero would be ideal or a goregrunta chariot, the goregrunta design is too good to only get 3 sculpts with tiny variations. 

[Dawi not Duardin]

50 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

They need a stormcast-type redesign. There's never been a bigger mismatch between the narrative and the models imo. 

You buy into them because of the axes and beards, and then you realise you've been sold badly-proportioned middle aged men in nappies.

I painted about 30 of them and then had some sort of existential crisis. They're just too weird.

I'd love for them to get a full rework.

 

I know the forum has been through this before and a lot of people don't like the idea, but IMO the obvious way to go is to soup them with Kharadron. Kharadron need infantry. Fyreslayers need artillery and missile units. Win-win.

Also, conceptually, they are both offfshoots of the classic Dwarfs, representing the rational engineer's guild side on the one hand and the more esoteric slayer/runesmith side on the other. Throw in a couple of unifying units - Grombrindal, a dwarf feminist cult of Valaya that swears allegiance neither to the code nor Grungni/Grimnir (why not even a High Queen?!), mini-magmadroth cavalry with aetherguns, or an airborne 'chariot'-style unit with Fyreslayers on a ship rushing towards close combat, you name it - and a unified force would be classic Dwarfs on steroids. I'd be all over that.

[novakai]

19 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

I know the forum has been through this before and a lot of people don't like the idea, but IMO the obvious way to go is to soup them with Kharadron. Kharadron need infantry. Fyreslayers need artillery and missile units. Win-win.

Also, conceptually, they are both offfshoots of the classic Dwarfs, representing the rational engineer's guild side on the one hand and the more esoteric slayer/runesmith side on the other. Throw in a couple of unifying units - Grombrindal, a dwarf feminist cult of Valaya that swears allegiance neither to the code nor Grungni/Grimnir (why not even a High Queen?!), mini-magmadroth cavalry with aetherguns, or an airborne 'chariot'-style unit with Fyreslayers on a ship rushing towards close combat, you name it - and a unified force would be classic Dwarfs on steroids. I'd be all over that.

because we are asking more from GW not less and not easier fixes either. build upon what you have already not just soup them in and forget about them like Bonespitterz in Warclanz and Harlequins in Aeldari.

and your idea still requires them to you know release more miniatures, why just give Fyreslayers Magmadroth calvary and KO steampunk melee units in the first place then rather than take the easy way out?

Edit: also technically almost every unit in Fyreslayers has a range attack of some form but they chose to not make any of them good ruleswise lol

Edited November 29, 2022 by novakai

[Dawi not Duardin]

26 minutes ago, novakai said:

because we are asking more from GW not less and not easier fixes either. build upon what you have already not just soup them in and forget about them like Bonespitterz in Warclanz and Harlequins in Aeldari.

and your idea still requires them to you know release more miniatures, why just give Fyreslayers Magmadroth calvary and KO steampunk melee units in the first place then rather than take the easy way out?

 

Well I admit I am very much driven by nostalgia (hint in the name, as well as in most of my posts here!). This is why I don't feel a connection to FS or KO per se but rather to Dwarfs as a faction. Does that make me a hopeless grumbler? Yes, but I'll buy that, it's par for the dwarf course.

But nostalgia aside, I do think there is something to be said for taking the easy way out here for GW though, and that's realism. I think in principle it'd be great to have two fully fleshed-out Duardin factions. But would that be an investment worth the money for GW? I don't know, but it's quite possible that it wouldn't be. And then at least I'd .be happier with one full faction rather than two half-baked ones (ok, KO are more like 80% baked already - they are a great concept - but you get what I mean).

I suspect what happened with AoS dwarfs is that they were split into several factions back at a time when GW didn't even intend to develop full-scale armies for AoS. That's, in particular, how the Fyreslayers were introduced. You had plenty of small-scale factions back then that were kind of like "breakouts" from older ones, like Ironjawz and Pestilens. But as AoS has matured and become more centred around full armies again, they have got unified back into the fold with their main factions. I'd be happy to see that with several others too, such as Malerion/Morathi aelves. But, in particular, if that's what you need to get the dwarf factions up to full strength, I'm all for it. 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Dawi not Duardin

[Ganigumo]

37 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

I know the forum has been through this before and a lot of people don't like the idea, but IMO the obvious way to go is to soup them with Kharadron. Kharadron need infantry. Fyreslayers need artillery and missile units. Win-win.

Also, conceptually, they are both offfshoots of the classic Dwarfs, representing the rational engineer's guild side on the one hand and the more esoteric slayer/runesmith side on the other. Throw in a couple of unifying units - Grombrindal, a dwarf feminist cult of Valaya that swears allegiance neither to the code nor Grungni/Grimnir (why not even a High Queen?!), mini-magmadroth cavalry with aetherguns, or an airborne 'chariot'-style unit with Fyreslayers on a ship rushing towards close combat, you name it - and a unified force would be classic Dwarfs on steroids. I'd be all over that.

Magma Tortoises would be sick for fyreslayers as a very small monster. Give it a little howdah with like 2 dwarves on top.
You could make some really cool narrative rules for it too.

It starts off fast and hard hitting, with an average save, but as it brackets the save actually gets better, down to a 1+ at the bottom bracket and its speed drops to abysmal levels, as the tortoise cools off and hardens when bracketed. Maybe it has a built in heal of some sort too, as it warms up, and when it dies it just stays on the board as impassable terrain, since its just a rock at that point.

A unit of priests that "surf" around the earth earthbender style could be cool too, melting the earth around them and riding on stone slabs

[novakai]

9 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

Well I admit I am very much driven by nostalgia (hint in the name, as well as in most of my posts here!). This is why I don't feel a connection to FS or KO per se but rather to Dwarfs as a faction. Does that make me a hopeless grumbler? Yes, but I'll buy that, it's par for the dwarf course.

But nostalgia aside, I do think there is something to be said for taking the easy way out here for GW though, and that's realism. I think in principle it'd be great to have two fully fleshed-out Duardin factions. But would that be an investment worth the money for GW? I don't know, but it's quite possible that it wouldn't be. And then at least I'd .be happier with one full faction rather than two half-baked ones (ok, KO are more like 80% baked already - they are a great concept - but you get what I mean).

I suspect what happened with AoS dwarfs is that they were split into several factions back at a time when GW didn't even intend to develop full-scale armies for AoS. That's, in particular, how the Fyreslayers were introduced. You had plenty of small-scale factions back then that were kind of like "breakouts" from older ones, like Ironjawz and Pestilens. But as AoS has matured and become more centred around full armies again, they have got unified back into the fold with their main factions. I'd be happy to see that with several others too, such as Malerion/Morathi aelves. But, in particular, if that's what you need to get the dwarf factions up to full strength, I'm all for it. 

i mean you can get a soup faction that is still half-baked (like Warclanz) and still does not solve any of the underlining issues of GW giving you stuff at all like Ironjawz. nothing in history says that they will function as a cohesive force or that magically people flock to play Fyreslayers 

I feel at this point there is not really a reason to merge KO and FS back, especially if Disspossed is stuck in CoS and Old world will just do what they going to do with the Dwarfs to make the Grognards happy.

[Jagged Red Lines]

47 minutes ago, Dawi not Duardin said:

I know the forum has been through this before and a lot of people don't like the idea, but IMO the obvious way to go is to soup them with Kharadron. Kharadron need infantry. Fyreslayers need artillery and missile units. Win-win.

Also, conceptually, they are both offfshoots of the classic Dwarfs, representing the rational engineer's guild side on the one hand and the more esoteric slayer/runesmith side on the other. Throw in a couple of unifying units - Grombrindal, a dwarf feminist cult of Valaya that swears allegiance neither to the code nor Grungni/Grimnir (why not even a High Queen?!), mini-magmadroth cavalry with aetherguns, or an airborne 'chariot'-style unit with Fyreslayers on a ship rushing towards close combat, you name it - and a unified force would be classic Dwarfs on steroids. I'd be all over that.

I think if dwarf soup does happen it'll likely be through the next Broken Realms-type series. Maybe with Grombrindal as the star