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HERO

AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

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funnily enough, Sword of Judgement on the epitome has a lot of chances to proc.

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1 hour ago, blubearbare said:

Allegiance: Slaanesh
- Host: Godseekers Host
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Keeper of Secrets (360)
- General
- Sinistrous Hand
- Trait: Speed-chaser
- Artefact: Cameo of the Dark Prince
- Spell: Progeny of Damnation
Keeper of Secrets (360)
- Sinistrous Hand
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement
- Spell: Hysterical Frenzy
The Contorted Epitome (200)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Phantasmagoria
Infernal Enrapturess, Herald of Slaanesh (140)
Viceleader, Herald of Slaanesh (120)
Bladebringer, Herald on Seeker Chariot (160)
- Lore of Slaanesh: Soulslice Shards

Battleline
30 x Daemonettes (300)
1 x Seeker Chariots (120)
1 x Seeker Chariots (120)

Battalions
Supreme Sybarites (120)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 95

Here is my take on a Godseekers list? Comments?

I like it. My only thought is maybe drop the viceleader and use the points for cogs and upgrading the bladebringer to an exalted chariot. I think they're both worth more than the extra hero in this case.

Oh and what Carnith mentioned about moving the sword to the epitome. 

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4 hours ago, carnith said:

Well dang on the mount part, but the blade is a nice option regardless if you have a second relic. So would rerolls from Strongest alone only affect the herald then? If thats the case, then using the fane would be better since it affects the whole model and not just the bearer. 

Yes, that is how it works. You need to sacrifice your artifact to use the Fane tho, and in 1/6 games is gonna be wasted statistically. Of course if you are close enough or only need the buff for one turn, you can keep using your wounds for that. Notice Strongest Alone is a trait, so is not directly intechangable for the fane buff as if it were an artifact, but yeah, there are way better traits for Bladebringer than that one. Still usefull in some situations, but i dont think is optimal.

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I figure with the chariot having a decent speed, having something like run and charge from god seekers would alllow it to get to combat turn one, or you let your opponent go first and having a shorter distance and use the fane that way. I dislike discarding for rerolls, though with a one time use artifact you should be fine.

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Has anyone looked real close at the wording for impact wounds on a group of chariots?  It sort of reads like each chariot triggers everyone time one in the same group completes a charge move.

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37 minutes ago, Darkfine said:

Has anyone looked real close at the wording for impact wounds on a group of chariots?  It sort of reads like each chariot triggers everyone time one in the same group completes a charge move.

Yeah, I definitely don’t read it that way. roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1” of A model after THE model finishes a charge. This seems pretty clear that you don’t get to trigger each one multiple times, you trigger each one once. No loopholes here.

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On 5/20/2019 at 7:13 PM, SwampHeart said:

Honest answer is its difficult to deal with. I've considered Ungor Raiders, especially with a pre-game move it isn't too hard to get 30 in range to shoot a hole in the screen but obviously that's a points investment. Right now my main game plan is usually putting Bestigors into the screen and understanding its a bad trade. The Bestigors will wipe out my opponent's screen, I know I'm going to get charged by Plague Monks so I atleast try to keep the Epitome near them for the chance to swing before they will before they get removed. Usually the goal against that build is to go full bore and just try to pin my opponent on his side of the table for the first two turns so I can get the upper hand on objective scoring, and then just try to keep pressure up via summoning. 

Probably misreading this, but 30 Bestigor for 60 clan rats works out in your favour doesn't it? Or are you assuming you'll only get to hit 20 or 40.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Probably misreading this, but 30 Bestigor for 60 clan rats works out in your favour doesn't it? Or are you assuming you'll only get to hit 20 or 40.

What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective.  Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go. 

I think this brings up an interesting point that I do find to be an overall weakness of Hedonites of Slaanesh. We aren't often able to set up favorable trades on the table. Not say we're not an incredibly offensively potent army but savvy opponents can really dictate the pace and units that are traded. I think this is probably an intentional element of design because of the potency of HoS summoning. 

Edited by SwampHeart

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16 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective.  Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go. 

I think this brings up an interesting point that I do find to be an overall weakness of Hedonites of Slaanesh. We aren't often able to set up favorable trades on the table. Not say we're not an incredibly offensively potent army but savvy opponents can really dictate the pace and units that are traded. I think this is probably an intentional element of design because of the potency of HoS summoning. 

Agree with the trading screen for hammer thing.  There are times when even losing bestigors after to (some hammer) can be a good trade for you, though.  Had game last night where I took 10 seekers (240 points pretend 20 bestigors) and charged them into their death.  They essentially only killed a screen, but if you are able to tie up multiple units for a turn you can set up a counter charge for your next turn.  (I was playing vs ko, so they had next to no shooting on the following turn besides killing seekers). 24in deployment maps where you can't get your guys in where you want them are good for this.

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3 minutes ago, jackmcmahon said:

There are times when even losing bestigors after to (some hammer) can be a good trade for you, though. 

Yeah it heavily depends on the match up. The issue is against a unit like Plague Monks most HoS armies don't have a ton of tools to deal with them. Bestigors absolutely blend them but they're a bad match up for say a Keeper and so if you lose the Bestigors before you deal with the Monks you're left holding the bag. I've been able to get around this via summoning and using it to keep the monks from coming lose. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Yeah it heavily depends on the match up. The issue is against a unit like Plague Monks most HoS armies don't have a ton of tools to deal with them. Bestigors absolutely blend them but they're a bad match up for say a Keeper and so if you lose the Bestigors before you deal with the Monks you're left holding the bag. I've been able to get around this via summoning and using it to keep the monks from coming lose. 

Good point. In most of my armies I've had one block of 30 something's to kill hoard.  So you are right, bad trade vs monks.  If ever found in this position any ideas on dealing with it? Best I can think of is have lash and hysterical spells in range to try to thin the herd.

Edited by jackmcmahon
Typos

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1 minute ago, jackmcmahon said:

If ever found in this position and ideas on dealing with it? Best I can think of is have lash and hysterical spells in range to try to thin the herd.

Spell Portals can be really helpful, lets you get MWs through the portal and helps break screens and the like. A few folks were discussing it in the thread earlier and I've tried it since then, I think its an effective tool. I've actually be playing with a very similar list to the one Darren Watson took to BOBO (using Kairos) and its a very effective list. You obviously trade some DP generation but in exchange you get a potent caster/unbinder who has access to some very gnarly tricks. 

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8 hours ago, CB42 said:

Yeah, I definitely don’t read it that way. roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1” of A model after THE model finishes a charge. This seems pretty clear that you don’t get to trigger each one multiple times, you trigger each one once. No loopholes here.

While this is true you cant hit more than 1 unit more times than the number of charriots, @Darkfine is correct in the sense you can hit multiple units multiple times even if the subsequent charriots are no where near the target hit, but the same unit max hits is 1 hit per seeker charriot.

The precise wording is:

Roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move. On a 2+ that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move, but do not allocate the mortal wounds until after all models from this unit have moved.

So lets see how these interact. I have a unit of 3 seekers I put into a unit of clanrats first.

Per the 2nd bold "If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move" so I move them 1 at a time to charge as normal. The first 1 goes in and you roll the 2+ to inflict D3 mortal wounds and keep a record of wounds inflicted. The 2nd moves in and that clanrat unit is still within 1" of a model from the unit (2 in this case - but doesn't matter) then you roll another 2+. 3rd charriot moves in and you roll another 2+ on that unit - so max 9 mortal wounds on that unit.

Not great for a single unit but check this out. Turn the charriot bases sideways and space an inch apart for maximum surface area. This time the first chariot hits 3 units, 2 units of clanrats and a weapons team nestled between them. Roll a 2+ for each of the 3 units. The 2nd chariot goes in, and can only hit a single unit of clanrats - it matters not, 3 units are still within 1" of your unit so roll a 2+ again for each. The 3rd chariot does the same on the other unit of clanrats and all 3 are hit again with 2+. Potential damage from the charge is now up to 27 mortal wounds across the 3 units.

In short seeker charriots are very good against MSU, You should spread out as much as you can and try and tag multiple units, for max effect the first charriot should go into a happy place where it contacts as many enemy units as possible. After that the remaining charriots can go anywhere and you will still continue to rack up wounds. Most effectively used against things like multiple skink screens or small heroes within 12" of one another.

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16 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Spell Portals can be really helpful, lets you get MWs through the portal and helps break screens and the like. A few folks were discussing it in the thread earlier and I've tried it since then, I think its an effective tool. I've actually be playing with a very similar list to the one Darren Watson took to BOBO (using Kairos) and its a very effective list. You obviously trade some DP generation but in exchange you get a potent caster/unbinder who has access to some very gnarly tricks. 

I wish I had thought of Kairos before the book, the idea of getting an auto 6 on the exalted keepers ability to kill nagash would have been excelent.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, CB42 said:

Yeah, I definitely don’t read it that way. roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1” of A model after THE model finishes a charge. This seems pretty clear that you don’t get to trigger each one multiple times, you trigger each one once. No loopholes here.

You sort of highlight the issues.  If it were intended that the trigger only happen once and immediately after it’s charge the rule wouldn’t use “A” and “The”.  

For instance, if chariot A charges the left most side of a 10 wide unit, a character and the edge of another unit you get 3 triggers.  Now, because the rule says complete but don’t allocate after “each” charge, if you have a second that completes a charge sequentially you would then “roll a dice for each unit within 1” of “a model” from the unit.  The first chariot is a model from the unit and has three units within an inch of it.

Edited by Darkfine

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1 hour ago, SwampHeart said:

What I mean to say is trading Bestigors for Clanrats is a bad trade. The points trade out in my favor but that's not necessarily the best way to evaluate if the trade was effective.  Because what happens afterwards is I get charged by the Plague Monks behind the Clan Rats who are more offensive than Bestigors so effectively I'm trading one of my hammers for a screen. I've tended towards using the Contorted Epitome near the Bestigors to get a double chance at causing fight last to let them at least swing before the Monks go. 

I just assumed that was what the second unit of Bestigor were for :P.

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2 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I just assumed that was what the second unit of Bestigor were for :P.

I only run one so once they're gone I'm out. After that is summoned daemonettes for the rest of my needs. 

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47 minutes ago, Darkfine said:

You sort of highlight the issues.  If it were intended that the trigger only happen once and immediately after it’s charge the rule wouldn’t use “A” and “The”.  

For instance, if chariot A charges the left most side of a 10 wide unit, a character and the edge of another unit you get 3 triggers.  Now, because the rule says complete but don’t allocate after “each” charge, if you have a second that completes a charge sequentially you would then “roll a dice for each unit within 1” of “a model” from the unit.  The first chariot is a model from the unit and has three units within an inch of it.

Agreed you can hit multiple units up to 3 times (for the 3 chariots - if only you could take them in 6's) regardless of the location of the other chariots as long as the 1st makes it in.

You can do some amusing things with this if you choose. Since you dont have to maintain cohenrency, it just kills off a portion of your unit to do so, and you only need to get 1 model within 1/2" (the first). So you can do silly things like charge as many units as humanly possible in a suicide run for the whole unit, spread them out across you opponents army and inflict mortal wounds on lots of unit lots of times. If any chariots survive combat at the end of the turn 1 chariot will be left as the unit is split out of cohenrency.

Single chariot sacrifice per unit. Lets say you have 3 units of 3 chariots, and a limited frontage, you wan to do some damage to the always strike first grissle gore monster but only have space for 3 charriots and up to 9 mortal wounds aint going to cut it from 1 of those units. No worries, stick one charriot from each unit in there first and send the other 2 from each unit in coherency to fight something else. Inflict up to 27 mortal wounds (averaging 14-16) and then fight with that 1 model from each unit to finish it off. If you take casualties, take off the ones in combat with the monster first since you will lose them anyway at the end of the turn - or if the monster is down to 1-2 wounds you may want to keep it around to chip off the remaining wounds.

Point for point 360 points for killing another model seems like a narrowly good trade, but actually the value of some character is far above their points and they are hard to deal with otherwise.

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15 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

Single chariot sacrifice per unit. Lets say you have 3 units of 3 chariots, and a limited frontage, you wan to do some damage to the always strike first grissle gore monster but only have space for 3 charriots and up to 9 mortal wounds aint going to cut it from 1 of those units. No worries, stick one charriot from each unit in there first and send the other 2 from each unit in coherency to fight something else. Inflict up to 27 mortal wounds (averaging 14-16) and then fight with that 1 model from each unit to finish it off. If you take casualties, take off the ones in combat with the monster first since you will lose them anyway at the end of the turn - or if the monster is down to 1-2 wounds you may want to keep it around to chip off the remaining wounds.

It makes me think some scattershot MW chariot list would be a lot of fun to try, if a little silly. Get as many multiple small chariots from different units into as many units as possible in your opponent's army and watch the wounds fly.  

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I don't think that's how 3xchariots works. In fact, I think the use of " a" and "the" specifically tie together.  It says a near a model from this unit instead of the usual "this unit" because when you measure from "a model from this unit" you are measuring from "the" model that charged.

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3 hours ago, Rock Lobster said:

Roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move. On a 2+ that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. If this unit has more than 1 model, roll to determine if mortal wounds are inflicted after each model completes its charge move, but do not allocate the mortal wounds until after all models from this unit have moved.

It’s interesting that the part you chose not to bold shows that your interpretation is probably wrong.

It doesn’t say roll a dice for each unit within 1” of a model from this unit after ANY model finishes a charge, it says after THE model finishes a charge. So you roll after each charge, but only for units next to THE model that finishes a charge move, not every single model in the unit.

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57 minutes ago, jackmcmahon said:

I don't think that's how 3xchariots works. In fact, I think the use of " a" and "the" specifically tie together.  It says a near a model from this unit instead of the usual "this unit" because when you measure from "a model from this unit" you are measuring from "the" model that charged.

The method stated above is correct rules as written. There is no getting around the fact that you move each chariot individually and each time a chariot moves you add up the mortal wounds and they affect every unit within 1” of a model from this unit. Playing it any other way would be not playing the rules as written.

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Just now, Rock Lobster said:

The method stated above is correct rules as written. There is no getting around the fact that you move each chariot individually and each time a chariot moves you add up the mortal wounds and they affect every unit within 1” of a model from this unit. Playing it any other way would be not playing the rules as written.

Disagree

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Rock Lobster said:

 they affect every unit within 1” of a model from this unit.

Nope. Absolutely incorrect. They affect every unit within 1” of the model that just finished a charge. It’s one sentence discussing being near a model after the model finishes a charge, but you and dark are trying to interpret them as separate sentences and then ignore the second part.

Edited by CB42

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3 minutes ago, CB42 said:

It’s interesting that the part you chose not to bold shows that your interpretation is probably wrong.

It doesn’t say roll a dice for each unit within 1” of a model from this unit after ANY model finishes a charge, it says after THE model finishes a charge. So you roll after each charge, but only for units next to THE model that finishes a charge move, not every single model in the unit.

I dont think it changes anything, you can bold that too if you like. It explicitly states that you have to roll a dice for each enemy unit that is within 1" of a model from this unit after the model from this unit finishes a charge move. So you dont get a choice in the matter, it has to affect every unit within an inch of any model in this unit. The use of 'the' refers to the model being moved and indicates it is per model being moved and explicitly reinforced by the next section on multiple models in a unit where each is moved and mortal wounds are inflicted after each move. I'm afraid that is correct.

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