AoS 2 - Hedonites of Slaanesh Discussion

[pnkdth]

Looks like a potentially really cool kitbash option for either a LoP or Shardspeaker depending on the way you take it.

[Yoid]

I just realize my damage estimation for the shooting attack on Synessa was vs a 3+ (2'16), she is sligthly better vs a 4+ (2'41)

That mean the total damage of mele + shooting was not 4'94, it is 5'19. Not a big difference anyway.

The shooting attack is so tricky because MWs feel like working vs armor, but this attack damage output is actually reduced by armor. Weird.

[Poryague]

So the table size went down 48x72 to 44x60. We got extra command stuff to do which may change the value of the twins depending on what they allow. If reaction commands do anything interesting having unlimited range from the Voice could be really useful.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Poryague

[Enoby]

1 minute ago, Poryague said:

So the table size went down 48x72 to 44x60. We got extra command stuff to do which may change the value of the twins depending on what they allow. If reaction commands do anything interesting having unlimited range from the Voice could be really useful.

The bonus to monsters is also very interesting for them - might up Dex's damage considerably, depending on what the bonuses are.

Will write up the full details of the game, but won against Sylvaneth 16-2 top of turn 2 using the twins

With the news of AoS 3 being good for heroes and monsters with command points, I'm more optimistic about the twins.

[Poryague]

1 minute ago, Enoby said:

The bonus to monsters is also very interesting for them - might up Dex's damage considerably, depending on what the bonuses are.

Will write up the full details of the game, but won against Sylvaneth 16-2 top of turn 2 using the twins

With the news of AoS 3 being good for heroes and monsters with command points, I'm more optimistic about the twins.

I think the Voice could be more powerful depending on command changes with its ability to have infinite range. Shrinking of the table size may explain some of the ranges being awkward. Also maybe they changed the order of the phases.

[Sorrow]

21 hours ago, AngryPanda said:

A couple weeks ago I stated a theory of mine that at least one or more writers either feel salty about Slaanesh’s first release, aren’t fans of the army or simply don’t like them, or both. I took a guess from the numerous rumors that there was drama/debate behind the scenes when releasing our somewhat recent disappointment of a battletome, and this confirms it somewhat more so. However, I feel that Dexcessa is actually pretty decent, and can be considered a cheaper replacement to a KoS or a more reliable Sigvald. 

Well, it is all over now.

The models are all out, the rules are all out and I highly doubt that we will be getting any novels dedicated to Hedonites.

Shame, since with the Twins, Sigvald and Glutos, you think there would be so many things to explore about Slaaneshi of the Realms. Quick example: I am reading a Dynasty of Monsters, which was released with new Soulblight Vampires and you really get a good insight into one Vampire dynasty, the Avengorii. Cursed City novel was practically dedicated to Vrykos dynasty.

 

[Yoid]

AoS 3.0 changes can fix a lot of things. New heroic interventions, new monster capabilities in the charge phase, reaction abilities on each phase of the game. They may even fix the double turn with it. Lets see. Generic Battlations confirmed to have some rules too (contrary to only reducing drops) that may trigger some unexpected synergies with our troops.

[Sorrow]

50 minutes ago, Yoid said:

AoS 3.0 changes can fix a lot of things. New heroic interventions, new monster capabilities in the charge phase, reaction abilities on each phase of the game. They may even fix the double turn with it. Lets see. Generic Battlations confirmed to have some rules too (contrary to only reducing drops) that may trigger some unexpected synergies with our troops.

I will be blunt and say what I said only in private to @Enoby.

For me, models and lore matter more then rules. Rules change, but models and lore are eternal.

In model department, our release was extraordinary. But I am sad with out lore treatment, for example, were not Sigvald and Glutos heading to Excelsis too? What happened to them? I mean, now was the perfect time to explore Hedonite societies in detail.

[CeleFAZE]

My only issue with the idea that the new 3.0 rules will make our stuff better is that the other armies get the benefit of those rules too. A rising tide lifts all ships as it were, and we'll still be dealing with more subpar baseline rules with our book, while enjoying the same benefits.

On the note of fiction for our faction, as an artist and partners with a writer, I may take it upon myself to create a webcomic series following a hedonite host when my schedule frees up a bit after the next few months. If GW won't make content I'll do it myself until the inevitable C&D order.

Edited May 29, 2021 by CeleFAZE

[LeonBox]

6 hours ago, umpac said:

Good point, but this only adds to the wierdness of the spell. Why not give the spell infinite range instead of having it as a special rule? For the insanely rare situation where other can steal the spell and that way make it useless for the opponent? Gonna try building some lists after I mentally processed their warscrolls and try them out by proxying or playing TTS. I'm trying to keep an open mind about them but Im struggling. Maybe they surprise me on the table.

Hey now -- it also makes it completely useless for an allied Kairos to borrow too! 

[Enoby]

A bit of a write up on my game against Sylvaneth. The list I used in the end was:

Decided to take no battalions in preparation for AoS 3, and as such decided not to go Lurid Haze to not miss out on the Rod of Misrule

Invaders host

Keeper of Secrets

Contorted Epitome (general), rod of misrule, Glory Hog

Dexcessa (general)

Synessa

Battleline

5× chaos warriors

5× chaos warriors

5× chaos warriors

11× blissbarbs

Others

6× fiends

Endless spells

Chronomatic cogs

Dreadful visage 

Their list was (new warscrolls)

Alarialle 

Treelord ancient

Warsong revenant

6 Kurnoth hunters with Scythes

2×5 tree revenants

10 dryads

Gladewyrme And tree endless spell

Turn 1

Scorched Earth (18" apart)

I was made to go first, which I happily accepted. I rolled a 6 and a 6 for the rod of misrule. My set up was the contorted epitome right at the back to cast the chronomatic cogs outside of dispell range and put them next to the KoS and ready for Synessa to move up. They got it off with the reroll. The KoS took 1 wound from the fane. Synessa cast pavane on Alarialle, but did a disappointing 3 MW. The fiends, Dexessa, and the KoS moved up to within 3" charge range (well about 5" for the fiends) of the Kurnoth hunters and the tree revenants who were holding two objectives. Synessa did 2mw to the hunters. Chaos warriors and blissbarbs took up position on objectives. Blissbarbs took two wounds off the ancient. The fiends, Dex, and the KoS all charged in - the Dex and KoS got into the hunters and the fiends into the revenants. The KoS got the locus off on the hunters, meaning only three could get in, and struck first killing two and wounding another. They attacked back, putting 7 wounds on the keeper, and then the fiends killed the revenants. Dexcessa piled in twice for free and killed three more and left the last on 3 (hunters were on a 4+ rerolling save). They passed battleshock, and I ended up with 5 depravity and 6 VP.

Sylvaneth's turn 1 involved the warsong doing a few MWs to the keeper and Dex, and cast the gladewyrm, which failed the 3+. The warsong moved into the KoS, Alarialle failed to shoot Syn and summoned a treelord near their backlines to defend them. They summoned 10 dryads in the centre too. The ancient did small amounts of damage to the KoS, and the treelord did some to the blissbarbs. Alarialle charged into the blissbarbs and chaos warriors, dealing 1 MW to each. The warsong charged the KoS. Allarialle killed 5 blissbarbs and that was it. The warsong did 4 wounds to the keeper, who did two in return. They scored 2vp.

Turn 2

I got priority, and the gladewyrm did 2 MW to both the KoS and Dex. Synessa cast slothful stupor on Alarialle successfully, and the blissbarbs and warriors moved out of combat. Synessa failed her second cast from the cogs, but it wasn't important. Syn then finished off the warsong with 5MWs, all of which went unsaved. I summoned 10 daemomettes onto the far right point on the opponent's side, sent the fiends to kill the ancient, and Dex to kill the dryads. The ancient fell to the fiends, the dryads died to Dex, and I burned the 3 opponent objectives for 6 points, leaving me with 16 and the Sylvaneth with two models. They conceded. 

In conclusion, I liked the list - very fast but the twins seemed worth their points, and their command ability abilities were helpful and I imagine will be a lot better with more options, with the most potential on Syn. 

(FW keeper and Executioner were stands for the twins)

Edited May 29, 2021 by Enoby

[shinros]

3 hours ago, Sorrow said:

I will be blunt and say what I said only in private to @Enoby.

For me, models and lore matter more then rules. Rules change, but models and lore are eternal.

In model department, our release was extraordinary. But I am sad with out lore treatment, for example, were not Sigvald and Glutos heading to Excelsis too? What happened to them? I mean, now was the perfect time to explore Hedonite societies in detail.

Funny enough, this is also my outlook and it's why I'm also at my wits end at the same time. When the tome first came out, I saw the glaring disparity between DoK and Slaanesh. 

Majority of the rules in the DoK tome really mesh well with their lore, while it's the opposite for Slaanesh. For example the Melusai are deadly, they scream elite warriors and also their lore of turning people into crystal is part of their rules. 

While in the case of Hedonites, I just can't see the effort both in terms of the narrative and the rule-writing when it comes to design with Slaanesh. Back then, I told myself that they would improve some of the warscrolls and lore with Broken Realms, since technically our tome was meant to come out last year, guess I was wrong. I also thought the twins being born and acting would be a huge event, guess I was wrong again. In the end it's very hard for me to remain positive about the Slaanesh narrative and design, when I see the summary of Kragnos and the rules of the twins. 

This hurts even more because the models are so good as well. In the end I don't see the issues being dealt with considering the story seems to be shifting towards destruction, I don't see how Slaanesh fits into that until perhaps Malerion comes along. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by shinros

[CeleFAZE]

1 minute ago, shinros said:

Funny enough, this is also my outlook and it's why I'm also at my wits end. When the tome first came out, I saw the glaring disparity between DoK and Slaanesh, majority of the rules in the DoK tome, really meshes well with their lore, while it's the opposite for Slaanesh. For example the Melusai are deadly, they scream elite warriors and also their lore of turning people into crystal is part of the their rules. 

While in the case of Hedonites, I just can't see the effort both in terms of the narrative and the rule-writing when it comes to design with Slaanesh. Back then, I told myself that they would improve some of the warscrolls with Broken Realms, since technically our tome was meant to come out last year, guess I was wrong. It's very hard for me to remain positive about the Slaanesh narrative and design, when I see the summary of Kragnos and the rules of the twins. 

This hurts even more because the models are so good as well, since the story is also shifting towards destruction I don't see how Slaanesh fits into that until perhaps Malerion comes along. 

What we were really missing I think was some kind of army mechanic for our mortals. Some kind of combat drugs rule would've been great, would make sense with all the flasks they carry, and give us something strategic to work with, like risking mortal wounds for an added effect, like additional attacks, bonuses to hit or wound, or a bravery bonus. Also bravery being a weakness for us is the polar opposite to what the mark of Slaanesh did in old-school WHFB, where it gave what was effectively for that system battleshock immunity.

It's just odd that they leaned so hard into summoning as a core army identity for us. I kind of miss the days before the introduction of depravity points where our core mechanics just exploding 6's, penalties to be hit, and double-attack command abilities. While we've begun to slowly creep back in those directions it feels like they all take a back seat to summoning, which just doesn't feel Slaaneshi to me. You'd think the party would be better and more exclusive with Slaanesh, rather than just making it bigger and bigger.

[LeonBox]

51 minutes ago, Enoby said:

5× chaos warriors

5× chaos warriors

5× chaos warriors

11× blissbarbs

Can I ask why you took 4 battleline rather than 3? Why not drop a unit of Chaos Warriors and spend those points on something pretty? (Not that we have anything pretty for 90 pts)

[Enoby]

Just now, LeonBox said:

Can I ask why you took 4 battleline rather than 3? Why not drop a unit of Chaos Warriors and spend those points on something pretty? (Not that we have anything pretty for 90 pts)

Pretty much exactly this reason If I'd have removed chaos warriors and the visage, I'd have saved 130 points but we don't have 130 points to spend on anything. The chaos warriors were basically a cheap double screen to stop Alarialle flying next to Synessa even on a charge as her base is so big. They did their job of standing still next to an objective admirably. 

If only Painbringers were slightly cheaper, but alas! 

With the sound of these new command abilities in AoS 3, I'm looking forward to what the twins may be able to bring in the future. If generic command abilities are buffed, we could see Synessa become a proper buffer.

[Poryague]

2 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

My only issue with the idea that the new 3.0 rules will make our stuff better is that the other armies get the benefit of those rules too. A rising tide lifts all ships as it were, and we'll still be dealing with more subpar baseline rules with our book, while enjoying the same benefits.

On the note of fiction for our faction, as an artist and partners with a writer, I may take it upon myself to create a webcomic series following a hedonite host when my schedule frees up a bit after the next few months. If GW won't make content I'll do it myself until the inevitable C&D order.

Except not all armies will benefit equally. Slaanesh can generate  a lot of cp it is on the higher end. Add in the twins you get infinite range and 1 free cp use each player turn. We will benefit more from it then most. 

Most model rules are ok.  The hosts probably needed some reworking or new ones introduced. As well as the buff pieces and spells being easier to use. Though the worst offender is points which hopefully go down because it's to restrictive. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Poryague

[Yoid]

The stuff about monster having special abilities in the charge phase intrigue me.

The narrator said "You know, stomping, roaring, smashing, monster stuff." Sounds like you will be able to choose from at least three effects when you charge with a monster.

Stomping sound related to some form of debuff (several warscrolls already got a stomp ability that play into the activation wars), be it activation wars, pile-in wars or -1 to something.

Roaring sound related to bravery, probably -1 bravery for the enemies around.

And smashing... well, probably some good old MW on the charge, but so many monsters already do this that feels weird to add even more MWs in the charge to them. Alternatively it may be a self-buff, like rerolling something to hit/wound or +1 to hit/wound.

May not be free tho, maybe these are special CAs for the charge phase that can only target monsters or something.

Was thinking if this can save Slaangors from being terrible, but they don't have the monster keyword. Nor the Fiends, Chariots, Syl'Eskke, Sigvald or Glutos. Only Dexcessa, Synessa, Shalaxi and KoS got the Monster Keyword. This feel good for the twins as being "cheap" monsters can have some extra value.

[CeleFAZE]

4 hours ago, Poryague said:

Except not all armies will benefit equally. Slaanesh can generate  a lot of cp it is on the higher end. Add in the twins you get infinite range and 1 free cp use each player turn. We will benefit more from it then most. 

Most model rules are ok.  The hosts probably needed some reworking or new ones introduced. As well as the buff pieces and spells being easier to use. Though the worst offender is points which hopefully go down because it's to restrictive. 

We're okay when it comes to CP generation, but only for one of our hosts, and not nearly to the extent of Seraphon, who are already a top dog in the meta. The twins will help for sure, but we still have the problem of being locked into very specific builds to play on the same level as armies with far more freedom.

I'll try to withhold judgment until we have a better idea of what's in the pipeline, but I feel rather burnt out on hoping for a silver bullet for our shortcomings as a faction.

[Gorsnik]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:28 AM, LeonBox said:

I've just noticed as well that despite Dexcessa wielding the "Scourge of Slaanesh" (which I assume is a whip), it actually seems to be the Synessa model that has anything resembling such a weapon. 

Dexcessa 

Synessa, with what looks like the whip.  

 

It looks like rules were written for different models, it's not only the whip, but also Dexcessa's sceptre, and Synessa's staff. Either rules writers were mistaken, which model represents whom, or the informations on the website and the box are wrong.

[AngryPanda]

16 hours ago, Sorrow said:

I will be blunt and say what I said only in private to @Enoby.

For me, models and lore matter more then rules. Rules change, but models and lore are eternal.

In model department, our release was extraordinary. But I am sad with out lore treatment, for example, were not Sigvald and Glutos heading to Excelsis too? What happened to them? I mean, now was the perfect time to explore Hedonite societies in detail.

That’s a very good point, I hadn’t thought about it in this way, with models being most important, followed by lore and then rules.
 

Models are phenomenal, arguably the best that AoS has released. This is really great because models usually take a very long time to update after making their debut; some of the 40k range is still Finecast and between 15-20 years old. GW has given us an absurd number of names characters (7!) My hope is that if we were to get new model or two, it would be a vanilla chaos lord hero to take reliance away from our named characters, yet I’m generally pleased. The design team knocking our release out of the park is a very valuable blessing to Slaanesh enthusiasts, and for many years to come it’s ensured we have a great range to collect. 
 

Lore comes over time more frequently than the models and sculpts. Though we didn’t get any specific novellas dedicated to our faction, we will potentially receive more over the next edition through campaign books, supplements, etc. Slaanesh has been a central figure within the AoS storyline for a while, and I can imagine Archaon is happy to see that he has been found. It will be interesting to finally see how he, Teclic, Tyrion, Malerion, Sigmar, and the Chaos Gods react to their youngest sibling being discovered.

 

The rules are the most fluctuating of the other two categories: models and lore. They are, in my opinion, mostly ok. There are some obvious offenses (Slaangors), but Painbringers and Twinsouls are pretty good on paper and are clearly defined in their roles on the table; the only thing that is needed for most of our units is a generous points reduction. Thankfully, this can be done with the new core book in July. If points aren’t dropped, then it would suck, but it wouldn’t mean the absolute end of the world for us as there will be other opportunities for points to decrease or rules to change.

[Poryague]

7 hours ago, CeleFAZE said:

We're okay when it comes to CP generation, but only for one of our hosts, and not nearly to the extent of Seraphon, who are already a top dog in the meta. The twins will help for sure, but we still have the problem of being locked into very specific builds to play on the same level as armies with far more freedom.

I'll try to withhold judgment until we have a better idea of what's in the pipeline, but I feel rather burnt out on hoping for a silver bullet for our shortcomings as a faction.

The silver bullet at this point would be point drops across multiple units which is the most likely. Unfortunately I don't see that happening until December. I don't see the July points adjustment having to many adjustments.  

[Yoid]

Been thinking more about the twins being tailored for AoS 3.0. We know that heroic interventions and CAs in every phase are a thing, plus the "less downtime, play in the turn of your opponent" focus of the new edition. Initialy Dex and Syn dosn't seem to have any special synergy between themselves but that may change. Syn got a big problem being a single caster, is a wasted potential of her other improvements to cast (knowing all spells and casting some without range limit).

Maybe one of the new heroic interventions for wizards is to interrupt the enemy and cast one spell during the opponent hero phase. If this is considered a CA in some way, then the synergy of the twins would be that Dexcessa can grant an extra spell to Synessa during the opponent hero phase for free (and Synessa can buff or heal Dex with the extra spells).

Right now im not convinced on Syn, she only seems to work with cogs, otherwise she is gonna succesfully cast 2-3 spells per game and basically do nothing. I hope 3.0 bring something interesting for her.

[Nagashfan]

3 minutes ago, Yoid said:

Been thinking more about the twins being tailored for AoS 3.0. We know that heroic interventions and CAs in every phase are a thing, plus the "less downtime, play in the turn of your opponent" focus of the new edition. Initialy Dex and Syn dosn't seem to have any special synergy between themselves but that may change. Syn got a big problem being a single caster, is a wasted potential of her other improvements to cast (knowing all spells and casting some without range limit).

Maybe one of the new heroic interventions for wizards is to interrupt the enemy and cast one spell during the opponent hero phase. If this is considered a CA in some way, then the synergy of the twins would be that Dexcessa can grant an extra spell to Synessa during the opponent hero phase for free (and Synessa can buff or heal Dex with the extra spells).

Right now im not convinced on Syn, she only seems to work with cogs, otherwise she is gonna succesfully cast 2-3 spells per game and basically do nothing. I hope 3.0 bring something interesting for her.

Wait so Dex can let other hero’s use a command ability for free once a turn? Not just it’s self using a generic one for free?

[Yoid]

3 minutes ago, Nagashfan said:

Wait so Dex can let other hero’s use a command ability for free once a turn? Not just it’s self using a generic one for free?

Not sure about that. But we need to see the core rules of 3.0 to know for sure. They are changing the wording on CAs. If you look at Dex/Syn warscroll they talk about "Issue a command" and "If this model issues a command to more than 1 friendly unit" like, there seem like we gonna have generic CAs that are area of effect/aura style.

We know nothing about heroic interventions yet, they may be like CAs that only affect yourself as a hero or something. If somehow Dex cannot help Syn, then you can always use the free CA for whathever you need in the battlefield and use one of the others you naturally generate in your turn to do the special thing on Syn.

Is just speculation because Syn seems weak right now and the twins dosn't have any synergy between themselves yet.

[Enoby]

I think good points have been raised about Syn and their potential in the next edition. 

While Syn was considered a caster, their title is the "Voice" and their description mentions them enthralling people, and commanding them. It might well be that they're not really meant to be a great caster (but they definitely should definitely have two spells), but instead more of a commander.

Let's be hopelessly optimistic for a second, and let's say that one of the generic command abilities in AoS 3 is +1 melee attack to another unit wholly within 6". A really good ability, but a very small range so many heroes will not be able to use it due to not being close enough. Synessa on the other hand could provide this from any distance. Of course, this is a made up ability, but hopefully it illustrates the potential use in the future - if generic command abilities are good buffs, then Synessa is a buff bot that can buff any unit of the field, which could be a fantastic role. But until we know more, we can't say much else.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Enoby