AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

53 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

I might try this actually... with the Master Moulder able to heal D3 wounds on the pack too that would be insane. Also the wording of this ability does not exclude 2 Master Moulders healing the same unit

That is nice to know.

I could see these being a pretty nifty trick

[Charlo]

This is purely speculative and very silly, but could a pure Eshin force work?

With big hero monsters being so strong in AoS3.0 and there being an easy way for you to give what would be an entire army re-rolls to hit/ wound against them, it certainly feels like there's potential. Plus the sheer amount of movement, redeploy, bodies & dice you could bring would be a bit of a headache to play against, with untold number of assassins popping up very close. Deceivers seem pretty powerful too!

[LeonBox]

6 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Skrallogs backstabbing Backstabbers (390)*
  60 x Clanrats
- Rusty Blade
- 01 x Standard Bearers
- 01 x Standard Bell Ringers

May I ask why you don't give these Clanrats spears instead of blades? Surely in such large units, volume of attacks is more important than quality? (correct me if I'm wrong, but the first 3 ranks should be able to attack with 2" range?) 

 

2 hours ago, Charlo said:

This is purely speculative and very silly, but could a pure Eshin force work?

With big hero monsters being so strong in AoS3.0 and there being an easy way for you to give what would be an entire army re-rolls to hit/ wound against them, it certainly feels like there's potential. Plus the sheer amount of movement, redeploy, bodies & dice you could bring would be a bit of a headache to play against, with untold number of assassins popping up very close. Deceivers seem pretty powerful too!

I saw an Honest Wargamer video recently where one of Oz's top Skaven players was running a Clan Eshin list and doing pretty well with it. It was entirely Gutter/Night Runners, a Warpseer, a Deceiver, and a Deathmaster. 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, LeonBox said:

May I ask why you don't give these Clanrats spears instead of blades? Surely in such large units, volume of attacks is more important than quality? (correct me if I'm wrong, but the first 3 ranks should be able to attack with 2" range?) 

Well there is actually no real reason.

I just typed in the wrong weapon option, and I just didn't bother changing that.

Edited September 14, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Bleepin]

Something that hasnt been addressed yet that Ive seen on online forums and guides.

Hidden weapon teams can hide in a unit and are only revealed in certain circumstances.

This has some implications

1. Hidden weapon teams can be transported along with 1 unit when being transported via a Warp-Grinder.

Uses

- This means that you could transport 30 storm vermin 9" away, if you make the charge, 3 doomflayers could pop out (at the end of the charge phase) that made a charge move. and overcharge with 6 x D6 Hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's -1 rend with 1 damage each (and this is before the stormvermin)

- 60 clanrats with 6 warpfire throwers/ gattling guns. The clanrats are set up in any formation as long as the closest is 9" away. Then in the shooting phase, 6 warpfire throwers are set up 3" closer so they are only 6" away from the enemy unit and flame away. This is a DIY thanqual.

Combine with a Verminlord deceiver with Arcane Tomb so it can cast 2 spells. Flaming weapon and Dreaded Skitterleap, TPing itself within 6" of a terrain feature. Not only will it hurt in combat, but with "Shadowy masters" it can be shot from enemy ranged unit further then 6" away.  

 

 

 

[Bleepin]

"Cant be targetted"

[LeonBox]

With the Deceiver's -2 to hit: is that still a thing? In 3.0 you can't modify a to-hit roll by more than 1, but I don't see an errata for the Deceiver in Skaven's latest FAQ. 

[Bleepin]

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

With the Deceiver's -2 to hit: is that still a thing? In 3.0 you can't modify a to-hit roll by more than 1, but I don't see an errata for the Deceiver in Skaven's latest FAQ. 

Not. Sure... but invisible if you are within 6' of terrain is a thing

[Eldarain]

1 hour ago, LeonBox said:

With the Deceiver's -2 to hit: is that still a thing? In 3.0 you can't modify a to-hit roll by more than 1, but I don't see an errata for the Deceiver in Skaven's latest FAQ. 

You can still be -2 to hit. If your enemy doesn't have any +s to hit it will become -1 when they roll dice.

It's useful to negate All out Attack, Hurricanum etc.

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, Bleepin said:

Not. Sure... but invisible if you are within 6' of terrain is a thing

Yeah, great against any army but lumineth

2 hours ago, Bleepin said:

Something that hasnt been addressed yet that Ive seen on online forums and guides.

Hidden weapon teams can hide in a unit and are only revealed in certain circumstances.

This has some implications

1. Hidden weapon teams can be transported along with 1 unit when being transported via a Warp-Grinder.

Uses

- This means that you could transport 30 storm vermin 9" away, if you make the charge, 3 doomflayers could pop out (at the end of the charge phase) that made a charge move. and overcharge with 6 x D6 Hitting on 2's, wounding on 3's -1 rend with 1 damage each (and this is before the stormvermin)

- 60 clanrats with 6 warpfire throwers/ gattling guns. The clanrats are set up in any formation as long as the closest is 9" away. Then in the shooting phase, 6 warpfire throwers are set up 3" closer so they are only 6" away from the enemy unit and flame away. This is a DIY thanqual.

Combine with a Verminlord deceiver with Arcane Tomb so it can cast 2 spells. Flaming weapon and Dreaded Skitterleap, TPing itself within 6" of a terrain feature. Not only will it hurt in combat, but with "Shadowy masters" it can be shot from enemy ranged unit further then 6" away.  

 

 

 

Well I’m not sure if the doomflayers will be getting the +1 to the hit role for having charged, considering that it wasn’t them.

But a clarification from gw about the hidden weapon teams rule would be nice, considering that it’s current wording is written in a way where a weapon team hidden in a unit would not count as a drop.

(It would be nice to know, if that was intended ore just badly worded.

Yet I wouldn’t mind it staying that way)

Edited September 15, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[LeonBox]

17 minutes ago, Bleepin said:

Not. Sure... but invisible if you are within 6' of terrain is a thing

With any warscroll ability or command trait I always ask myself: "can LRL just straight-up ignore this?" and since they usually have one unit or another than can, that ability/trait's value immediately plummets for me

[Skreech Verminking]

36 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

With any warscroll ability or command trait I always ask myself: "can LRL just straight-up ignore this?" and since they usually have one unit or another than can, that ability/trait's value immediately plummets for me

Lumineth is an army that basically breaks every rule in the game.

thankfully we skaven do have some legal ways of destroying them pretty easily.

but that isn’t the point.

I do think, that the command trait is a bit lackluster against any lumineth player, yet it works amazingly against any seraphon, tzeentch (shooting heavy lists) and kharadron overlords especially.

Eshin currently, I personally believe, plays the game in a controlling way pretty great.

with the 2d6 pre move from nightrunners you are able to either screen of any shooting units from harming your own army or to just keep them in their deployment zone for a turn.

but when it comes down to the combat prowess, you’re basically going to have like non.

Certainly, if your lucky your deceiver may be able to backstab-kill a few smaller heroes, maybe even one of the bigger ones, if your not rolling to badly, but that is mostly it.

your just going to control the board, better then most armies, for a while

Edited September 15, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[LeonBox]

4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Lumineth is an army that basically breaks every rule in the game.

thankfully we skaven do have some legal way of destroying them pretty easy.

but that isn’t the point.

I do think, that the command trait is a bit lackluster against any lumineth player, yet it works amazingly against any seraphon, tzeentch (shooting heavy lists) and kharadron overlords especially.

Eshin currently, I personally believe, plays the game in a controlling way pretty great.

with the 2d6 pre move from nightrunners you are able to either screen of any shooting units from harming your own army or to just keep them in their deployment zone for a turn.

but when it comes down to the combat prowess, you basically going to have like non.

Certainly, if your lucky your deceiver may be able to backstab-kill a few smaller heroes, maybe even one of the bigger ones, if your not rolling to badly, but that is mostly it.

your just going to control the board, better then most armies, for a while

All great points. I don't mind admitting that I despise LRL for all their OTT special rules, abilities, exceptions etc. High Elves always have been and continue to be GW's pet faction, and they are my regular opponent's favourite army so I run into them constantly. 

If I was in a bigger meta and I faced a bigger variety of opponents, the Eshin command trait would absolutely be worth it. However, knowing I am facing LRL 3/4 games, it's largely pointless for me. 

That said, your Eshin-heavy list sounds interesting and they've historically been my favourite clan, so I'd be eager to try out an Eshin mono-clan list. Deceivers also seem fantastic, second only to Warpseers in terms of utility. 

[Charlo]

Eshin feel a little bit like the previous incarnation of Scourge Privateers. They throw ungodly amounts of dice from their chaff while some faster units deal mortals/ rend against the bigger stuff.

Eshin lean into board Control a lot more but I think it's insanely flexible. Throw enough dice with rerolls at something and it's bound to hurt eventually. I suppose it falls down a bit when not targetting the heroes, but they're usually so integral that killing them helps a win, plus there's multiple ways to suddenly gotcha an exposed one! 

[Cosmicsheep]

So.... the new Warhammer app is out in Beta today. At first glance it looks good. I can see all armies battletomes and traits/artefacts etc.. I'm assuming this is for the purposes of Beta testing only?

The list building looks good but i tried to build my list for this Friday and it wouldn't let me assign artefacts other than universal ones to my Master Moulder. And if i made my MM a general he was allowed to take the Cunning command trait and others that should be restricted to other clans.

I've logged my feedback with GW but wondered if anyone else had found any "funnies" yet ?

[Charlo]

If it's like 40k, then pretty much everything from 2nd edition will be available for free until it gets an updated book.

Looking at the Stormcast, it's only very small faction specific things not available to read in-app without a code (artefacts, spells etc) but you can still assign them.

Warscrolls are all entirely free though, as are points, so it's a better, more detailed warsscroll builder - hooray!

[SaucyRatBear]

Now I don't see this list as being competitive in the slightest, more of a thought experiment than anything else, but I wanted to create an immovable tarpit and this is what I came up with. Now it's not immovable but rather it has such a strong marshmallow defense that it is really gonna ask the dps check question.

I can't figure out how to do spoilers with my phone so I will just describe it rather than pasting the whole thing in.

Essentially take 6 Master Moulders with the battalions to get two more artifacts (not really essential) and take Foulhide, Amulet, and Seed of rebirth.

Command trait for the General: Horde Master

3 min units Giant Rats

Then the rest is swarms of rats with as much reinforcements as you can!

Of course you deal as much damage as a goblin with a pool noodle but in ideal circumstances (no good player should ever give this to you) you are looking at quite the massive healing.

6 Master Moulders healing d3 wounds to the rat swarms in your hero phase

1 Master Moulder healing d3 in your hero phase due to artifact

1 Master Moulder healing due to heroic recovery each hero phase

17 units of Rat Swarms bringing back one model with 4 wounds in your hero phase

1 destroyed unit brought back on a 4+ EVERY PHASE

Now like I said nobody should ever spread their damage out to give you max healing but for kicks and giggles I wanted to see what max healing would be.

MM healing swarms 6x3=18

Artifact 1x3=3

Heroic Recovery 2x3=6

Rat swarm model replacement 17x4=68

(This last one really is a stretch but run with it as a thought experiment)

Unleash More-More Beasts

Reinforced Swarm=16 wounds

Enemy Hero phase, Enemy Shooting Phase, Enemy Combat Phase, My Charge Phase, My Combat phase=5 phases (without really wonky stuff like fighting in the enemy charge or my shooting phase)

16x5=80

18+3+6+68+80=175 max wounds healed/brought back per battle round

That is more healing than many/most armies have in their entire list! Once again I recognize the pool noodle damage and that no sane opponent will ever give you this chance nor will the dice gods ever be this kind but still this kinda healing is insane! And this isn't taking into account Rally because I don't usually find it worthwhile except for rare occasions. I also realized that there is some other tweaking that can be done to increase it further (reinforce the giant rats rather than the swarms and unleash the beasts with the rats)

Edit: tweaking for max healing

Remove three Master Moulders, reinforce the Giant Rats instead of rat swarms, use the points saved into more swarms, 35 more wounds healed/replaced per round!!!

Edited September 17, 2021 by SaucyRatBear
Added info, no double post

[greg19190]

On 9/17/2021 at 1:13 AM, SaucyRatBear said:

Now I don't see this list as being competitive in the slightest, more of a thought experiment than anything else, but I wanted to create an immovable tarpit and this is what I came up with. Now it's not immovable but rather it has such a strong marshmallow defense that it is really gonna ask the dps check question.

I can't figure out how to do spoilers with my phone so I will just describe it rather than pasting the whole thing in.

Essentially take 6 Master Moulders with the battalions to get two more artifacts (not really essential) and take Foulhide, Amulet, and Seed of rebirth.

Command trait for the General: Horde Master

3 min units Giant Rats

Then the rest is swarms of rats with as much reinforcements as you can!

Of course you deal as much damage as a goblin with a pool noodle but in ideal circumstances (no good player should ever give this to you) you are looking at quite the massive healing.

6 Master Moulders healing d3 wounds to the rat swarms in your hero phase

1 Master Moulder healing d3 in your hero phase due to artifact

1 Master Moulder healing due to heroic recovery each hero phase

17 units of Rat Swarms bringing back one model with 4 wounds in your hero phase

1 destroyed unit brought back on a 4+ EVERY PHASE

Now like I said nobody should ever spread their damage out to give you max healing but for kicks and giggles I wanted to see what max healing would be.

MM healing swarms 6x3=18

Artifact 1x3=3

Heroic Recovery 2x3=6

Rat swarm model replacement 17x4=68

(This last one really is a stretch but run with it as a thought experiment)

Unleash More-More Beasts

Reinforced Swarm=16 wounds

Enemy Hero phase, Enemy Shooting Phase, Enemy Combat Phase, My Charge Phase, My Combat phase=5 phases (without really wonky stuff like fighting in the enemy charge or my shooting phase)

16x5=80

18+3+6+68+80=175 max wounds healed/brought back per battle round

That is more healing than many/most armies have in their entire list! Once again I recognize the pool noodle damage and that no sane opponent will ever give you this chance nor will the dice gods ever be this kind but still this kinda healing is insane! And this isn't taking into account Rally because I don't usually find it worthwhile except for rare occasions. I also realized that there is some other tweaking that can be done to increase it further (reinforce the giant rats rather than the swarms and unleash the beasts with the rats)

Edit: tweaking for max healing

Remove three Master Moulders, reinforce the Giant Rats instead of rat swarms, use the points saved into more swarms, 35 more wounds healed/replaced per round!!!

Who has that many rat swarms?!? Has anyone done something like this on TTS yet? 

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

Who has that many rat swarms?!? Has anyone done something like this on TTS yet? 

No, but having seen that list, I currently found my limitation.

can’t have that……..

need to buy…..

31more rat swarms

Edited September 18, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[Chase]

Does Protection of the Horned Rat stack with either Verminous Valor or Amulet of Destiny?

[LeonBox]

5 minutes ago, Chase said:

Does Protection of the Horned Rat stack with either Verminous Valor or Amulet of Destiny?

I was under the impression that this question was settled with the FAQ of the FAQ, but there's now apparently an argument over Verminous Valour and whether or not it counts as a ward. As for the Amulet of Destiny, I believe that unambiguously does not stack with Protection of the Horned Rat. 

[SaucyRatBear]

I was under the impression that it works similar to the bodyguard rule but I may be horribly wrong because of specific wording. My understanding is that you can have both but the bodyguard/Verminous Valor goes first and sends wounds to the minions then the ward goes after. There are units like the Phoenix peeps in Cities of Sigmar that do exactly that but they bring a different question in the fact that the minions doing the bodyguard also have ward saves, do they get to ward save vs the wounds taken from bodyguarding?

[Skreech Verminking]

So after having played a few many games, I really have to say that I enjoy the new edition very much.

Yet there are a few things I would like to see changed with the next points and unit size update:

Firstly the Doomwheel.

there is nothing more fun to use a Doomwheel and even if it has a pretty random system. There are those times, where such a war-maschine , can be pretty handy in killing many-many bigger-expensiver units, or it at leas was.

-With the lack of rend on it’s only great shooting weapon, we currently are even struggling in getting units that cost halve their points, like for example a plague priest, which isn’t a worthwhile trait for what it currently cost.

-now there are three ways I could see the Doomwheel coming back:

firstly: we could chance the rules in sich a way it would be more fitting to it’s current pointscost, yet considering how gw has been handling things in the last points update, this would be very doubtful.

so instead I would recommend this:

-have the Doomwhee drop by 15points, and remove the singles rule on it’s pointscard.

This would allow the skaventide players to be able to use units of up to two Doomwheels, which can be a lot of fun, and could change the perspective, of how such a unit would be able to be used.

It would also have the chance to change some part of the meta.

-another possibility I would like to see for the doomwheel, would be a reduction of points, up to 25-30points.

This would give it at least the chance to deal with the smaller heroes, without the skaventide player loosing almost the double amount of points to the enemy for killing a small frey.

 

Stormvermin:

Stormvermins are an amazing Unit.

 But they currently have a huge problem (not as much as plague monks, but most of you guys probably know what I mean)

with the new edition having a rend characteristic of -1 is almost as good as that of a big 0, so they currently don’t really see much the table, at least not as the elite horde unit they should be.

And then there’s that big fluff part in the story as well as in the the allegiance abilities of the skaventide faction, and They just don’t really seem to fit that bill at all, which is very sad.

currently stormvermins have ebcome the new and better cannon fodder, protecting units of clanrats!!, from dying to fast.

That really sounds stupid and that is something they really should not be.

so here is what I would like to see to be changed:

firstly, have the unit size of stormvermins increase to 20.

reduce their points to 200 for a unit of 20, and to lock the unit to a size of 40, I would give them some rule that stands at the end of the points, where it states that this unit for being an “elite horde unit”, can only be reinforced ones.

This would bring the somewhat damage dealing stormvermins back, being able to dish out more attacks (then the currently buffed unit of 60clanrats) which would remove them from that true cannon-fodder role, they for some reason have taken from the clanrats.

-it would also remove the idea of an elite being able to take up sizes of that of cheap clanrats, which shouldn’t happen.

Plague monks

-there isn’t much to say, Plague monks just need an increase in size, they are currently not able to deal with anything and can’t even really take the skaventide allegiance ability, which is kinda stupid.

just increase the size to 20.

in a mixed force their max. Size would be 40, which is still a good amount of damage potential, and yet isn’t too much to consider an immediate thread for any army (but enough to have to consider dealing with it)

and for those truly dedicated pestilent players, can now finally truly have a reason to do so.

Considering that pestilence is currently literally unplayable, this would at least give them that one unit back.

This are my thoughts, which I would happily share with the games workshop tules team, if I knew who’d I’d have to write to.

Who knows maybe I’ll be able to do so at some point.

any thoughts, mighty warlords of skavendom

[greg19190]

Love the doom wheel idear onl y slight add is to Make giant rats a bigger size of 12 and alow doom-flayers to be taken in units of 2 and alow it to be reinforsed... Make things interesting... 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

Love the doom wheel idear onl y slight add is to Make giant rats a bigger size of 12 and alow doom-flayers to be taken in units of 2 and alow it to be reinforsed... Make things interesting... 

i agree.