AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[W1tchhunter]

Had another game with my friend who was playing soulblight, isnt worth a write up as i got absolutely smashed thought it was going okay untill round 3 when he brought his graveguard on and they deleted pretty much everything. He had a horrorghast also so it was just sad from the start really haha. We are having another game next week, he plans on using:

 

Kritza (****** loathe this guy) 

Nagash

Wight King on Steed (General)

Vampire Lord

 

10x Skeletons

2 x 20 Graveguard

 

Horrorghast

 

What is my best course of action here im using the same Eshin list i used before. 

 

I found out the Verminlord and Sylnk are pretty much the only decent units who can get the job done. As soon as the Verminlord died it was game over. Deathmaster absolutely blows but i love the model to much not to use him.

 

I know I need to get rid of Nagash asap, best way is to Skitterleap of course, but that can be easily unbound and i have to rely on the Verminlord killing him in one round of combat (he failed to kill a Terrorgheist last game so aint hopeful on that) or he is just gonna get hand of dusted and thats basically game over :P.

 

Any advice would be great. Im still very new to Skaven. Not super looking tweak the list as i dont have the models to do so atm however I did feel like the Stormvermin were useless again last game, so i can proxy them out if you have a better suggestion.

[greg19190]

20 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Had another game with my friend who was playing soulblight, isnt worth a write up as i got absolutely smashed thought it was going okay untill round 3 when he brought his graveguard on and they deleted pretty much everything. He had a horrorghast also so it was just sad from the start really haha. We are having another game next week, he plans on using:

 

Kritza (****** loathe this guy) 

Nagash

Wight King on Steed (General)

Vampire Lord

 

10x Skeletons

2 x 20 Graveguard

 

Horrorghast

 

What is my best course of action here im using the same Eshin list i used before. 

 

I found out the Verminlord and Sylnk are pretty much the only decent units who can get the job done. As soon as the Verminlord died it was game over. Deathmaster absolutely blows but i love the model to much not to use him.

 

I know I need to get rid of Nagash asap, best way is to Skitterleap of course, but that can be easily unbound and i have to rely on the Verminlord killing him in one round of combat (he failed to kill a Terrorgheist last game so aint hopeful on that) or he is just gonna get hand of dusted and thats basically game over :P.

 

Any advice would be great. Im still very new to Skaven. Not super looking tweak the list as i dont have the models to do so atm however I did feel like the Stormvermin were useless again last game, so i can proxy them out if you have a better suggestion.

Just had a look at what you have, as you are limited on models use the night runners and storm vermin as gutter runners to get more of them, they will be able to chip away at stuff.

Make sure the deathmaster is in the unit of night runners to make him an annoying road block after the unit dies if you want to still use him. 

Ditch most of the stuff that isn eshin so use the clan rats as night runners. And use them as a screen that the gutter runners can come behind. Giving you 1 or 2 turns of having all the gutterruners shooting and combat potenshal. I think keep the unit of 15 of them as a good sniping unit for nigash if all 15 of them can shoot and get in to combat and pop the deceivers one per game fight first it should be game over for him... 

Getting the wheight king early would stop a load of cp generation...

Edited August 31, 2022 by greg19190

[W1tchhunter]

34 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

Just had a look at what you have, as you are limited on models use the night runners and storm vermin as gutter runners to get more of them, they will be able to chip away at stuff.

Make sure the deathmaster is in the unit of night runners to make him an annoying road block after the unit dies if you want to still use him. 

Ditch most of the stuff that isn eshin so use the clan rats as night runners. And use them as a screen that the gutter runners can come behind. Giving you 1 or 2 turns of having all the gutterruners shooting and combat potenshal. I think keep the unit of 15 of them as a good sniping unit for nigash if all 15 of them can shoot and get in to combat and pop the deceivers one per game fight first it should be game over for him... 

That's a good idea tbf, how would you distribute the reinforcement points? With the clan rats and storm vermin gone that would be 2 more points. 

So just so I'm reading right.

20 stormvermin = 4x5 gutters

60 clanrats become night runners 

 

Can the deathmaster hide in night runners? 

Edited August 31, 2022 by W1tchhunter

[W1tchhunter]

How's this @greg19190

 

ngl thought of having to paint more night and gutters fills me with sadness 😛

[greg19190]

2 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Can the deathmaster hide in night runners? 

They can yes 

[Skreech Verminking]

So I just had a conversation with a few friends about the rattling gun weapon team and following thing came up:

so apparently in the core rules (1.5.2 dice) it states:” A double is a 2D6 roll where the dice used to make the roll show the same number before modifiers are applied“

And the rattling gun when choosing ti overcharge states:

if we have a look again we will notice that a rattling gun weapon team will explode on a double when making a roll,

yet the core rules state that a double can only be rolled when making a 2d6 roll.

since we aren’t making a 2d6 roll but rather a 4d6 roll, we can not ever roll a double or better said not a double as is considered to be one in the core rules.

which means that the rattling gun weapon team is apparently unable to ever kill himself.

so to put it shortly,

I’m still going to that gw tournament with my 25-26 rattling gun list.

ps: also apparently gw can’t write rules

 

Edited August 31, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[greg19190]

11 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So I just had a conversation with a few friends about the rattling gun weapon team and following thing came up:

so apparently in the core rules (1.5.2 dice) it states:” A double is a 2D6 roll where the dice used to make the roll show the same number before modifiers are applied“

And the rattling gun when choosing ti overcharge states:

if we have a look again we will notice that a rattling gun weapon team will explode on a double when making a roll,

yet the core rules state that a double can only be rolled when making a 2d6 roll.

since we aren’t making a 2d6 roll but rather a 4d6 roll, we can not ever roll a double or better said not a double as is considered to be one in the core rules.

which means that the rattling gun weapon team is apparently unable to ever kill himself.

so to put it shortly,

I’m still going to that gw tournament with my 25-26 rattling gun list.

ps: also apparently gw can’t write rules

 

Sure it is yet another oversight have fun

[Skreech Verminking]

1 minute ago, greg19190 said:

Sure it is yet another oversight have fun

Oh I will.

I will definitely have my fun.

oh yes

yes-yes

yes-yes, yes-yes

there is nothing that can stop my ingenuity😈😈

[Holy_Diver]

Hi, rat people!
A simple question about a command ability:

A master moulder can really respawn a Moulder destroyed unit immediately after is been destroyed, so in any phase?

Thanks.

Edited September 1, 2022 by Holy_Diver

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, Holy_Diver said:

Hi, rat people!
A simple question about a command ability:

A master moulder can really respawn a Moulder destroyed unit immediately after is been destroyed, so in any phase?

Thanks.

Yes

[Cosmicsheep]

Question: has anyone tried a Krondspine with a Skaven army? I'm wondering how it compares to something of a similar points value e.g. Verminlord / Thanquol

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Question: has anyone tried a Krondspine with a Skaven army? I'm wondering how it compares to something of a similar points value e.g. Verminlord / Thanquol

Well let’s start with this.

it has a weird ability.

units that are within three inches of an enemy unit get +1 to the hit rolls when the all out attack ability is being used.

fun fact this seems to work as well as in the combat phase, in which this ability was probably made for and in the shooting phase, as long as your units are in combat range of an enemy unit.

it costs 400points, which makes it somewaht less reliable in my oppinion 

[greg19190]

9 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Question: has anyone tried a Krondspine with a Skaven army? I'm wondering how it compares to something of a similar points value e.g. Verminlord / Thanquol

I have used it and it will stick arround for 2 combat phases in the worst case, depending on what verminlord you compare it to it will do well enough in combat to kill some stuff, it gunks stuff up as they cannot retreat from it which is sometimes very useful. Having thankwell and it in an army works well as he does a different job overall. 

I would say useful and now the model is easily acsesable worth a try it out 

[Congratz]

Hello fellow rats!

I’ve had a break from Warhammer for about a year and to my surprise we got a new book!

So whats changed with list building? Is it still the same with Stormfiends or do we have more/better options now?

I heard that Screaming Bell is useless now

Cheers!

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Congratz said:

Hello fellow rats!

I’ve had a break from Warhammer for about a year and to my surprise we got a new book!

So whats changed with list building? Is it still the same with Stormfiends or do we have more/better options now?

I heard that Screaming Bell is useless now

Cheers!

Let’s start with this.

Stormfiends got buffed, if you want to win at a tournament games, you might as well build around 6-9 stormfiends supported by a warlock and thanqoul.

weapon teams like doomflayers and warp grinders got a significant buff

while warpfire thrower weapon teams and theoretically rattling guns (we’ll get back to this one).

clan eshin well….

they got like poison on their weapons (6s to hit do mortal wounds)… but with the exception of the underworld warabnd which has better gutter runners and a better deathmaster, and which cost less then taking a deathmaster with some gutter runners, the whole range is extremely expensive.

most stuff jumped up by a significant amount of points, costing almost double the amount they did before.

there have been some talk about using gutter runners and night runners, competitively, but I haven’t heard of them having much success.

clan moulder well… they basically got boring.

no more mutations on rat ogor instead they all have now 6 wounds a 4+ save. 
 

the only allegiance ability you get with moulder are mutations for only hell pits, which is nice but if they don’t see play, your whole faction specific ability, could as well not exist.

for a clan that specifically is studying mutations and biological warfare, this is a sad step downwards.

now I’m going to skip clan pestilence and verminus, since hordes basically don’t exist in this so called horde meta (gw words not mine) (which feels more like an anti horde meta)

the rattling gun, is a pretty funny concept, while it did get nerfed, and theoretically should have an over 80%of dying, it just doesn’t have that.

you see in the last exition the rattling gun would still make a 2d6 (x2) roll and die on double, this changed to you having to make a 4d6 dice roll, whoch the rattling gun weapon team would also die on a double, yet as is stated in the core rules “1.5.2 dice” a double is the result of a 2d6 roll,  meaning that the new rattling gun can and will never get a double with his 4d6 roll overclocked gun.

so he basically can’t die doing so.

we now have a overclock version without having to take the risk.

a good mechanic to abuse in my opinion, sknce gw doesn’t seem to be bothered to clarify the skaven stuff correctly.

more then half of the books is still in a uncertain state.

 

 

[Congratz]

18 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Let’s start with this.

Stormfiends got buffed, if you want to win at a tournament games, you might as well build around 6-9 stormfiends supported by a warlock and thanqoul.

weapon teams like doomflayers and warp grinders got a significant buff

while warpfire thrower weapon teams and theoretically rattling guns (we’ll get back to this one).

clan eshin well….

they got like poison on their weapons (6s to hit do mortal wounds)… but with the exception of the underworld warabnd which has better gutter runners and a better deathmaster, and which cost less then taking a deathmaster with some gutter runners, the whole range is extremely expensive.

most stuff jumped up by a significant amount of points, costing almost double the amount they did before.

there have been some talk about using gutter runners and night runners, competitively, but I haven’t heard of them having much success.

clan moulder well… they basically got boring.

no more mutations on rat ogor instead they all have now 6 wounds a 4+ save. 
 

the only allegiance ability you get with moulder are mutations for only hell pits, which is nice but if they don’t see play, your whole faction specific ability, could as well not exist.

for a clan that specifically is studying mutations and biological warfare, this is a sad step downwards.

now I’m going to skip clan pestilence and verminus, since hordes basically don’t exist in this so called horde meta (gw words not mine) (which feels more like an anti horde meta)

the rattling gun, is a pretty funny concept, while it did get nerfed, and theoretically should have an over 80%of dying, it just doesn’t have that.

you see in the last exition the rattling gun would still make a 2d6 (x2) roll and die on double, this changed to you having to make a 4d6 dice roll, whoch the rattling gun weapon team would also die on a double, yet as is stated in the core rules “1.5.2 dice” a double is the result of a 2d6 roll,  meaning that the new rattling gun can and will never get a double with his 4d6 roll overclocked gun.

so he basically can’t die doing so.

we now have a overclock version without having to take the risk.

a good mechanic to abuse in my opinion, sknce gw doesn’t seem to be bothered to clarify the skaven stuff correctly.

more then half of the books is still in a uncertain state.

 

 

Thanks for the reply! It really sucks that skaven isnt a good horde army. That’s what I liked about them in the first place. However the Ratling gun abuse sounds awesome!

Im going to a tournament so I can get back in the game.

It´s only 1200 points (might get increased to 1350).
What do you think about this list? Think it will work? (I havent chosen artifact and such yet, because I haven´t really read about them yet.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaven

- Grand Strategy: None Chosen

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Warlock Bombardier (115)

Warlock Bombardier (115)

 

Battleline

20 x Clanrats (100)

- Rusty Blade

6 x Stormfiends (640)

- Reinforced x 1

20 x Clanrats (100)

- Rusty Spear

 

Units

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

 

Total: 1200 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 1 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 92

Drops: 7

 

Cheers!

[Skreech Verminking]

27 minutes ago, Congratz said:

Thanks for the reply! It really sucks that skaven isnt a good horde army. That’s what I liked about them in the first place. However the Ratling gun abuse sounds awesome!

Im going to a tournament so I can get back in the game.

It´s only 1200 points (might get increased to 1350).
What do you think about this list? Think it will work? (I havent chosen artifact and such yet, because I haven´t really read about them yet.

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Skaven

- Grand Strategy: None Chosen

- Triumphs:

 

Leaders

Warlock Bombardier (115)

Warlock Bombardier (115)

 

Battleline

20 x Clanrats (100)

- Rusty Blade

6 x Stormfiends (640)

- Reinforced x 1

20 x Clanrats (100)

- Rusty Spear

 

Units

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

 

Total: 1200 / 2000

Reinforced Units: 1 / 4

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 92

Drops: 7

 

Cheers!

Well If it makes you happy, the skaven book overall was poorly written.

Also your list looks solid.

just as a reminder keep your 

bombardiers save, and if you’re going to play with a 150points more it might be a reasonable choice to take stormvermins.

they basically take wounds for your heroes on a 4+ (2+ for verminus heroes).

so will keep your bombardiers alive should they be targeted or roll a few ones with their overcharge doomrocket rattling turret

[Congratz]

5 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well If it makes you happy, the skaven book overall was poorly written.

Also your list looks solid.

just as a reminder keep your 

bombardiers save, and if you’re going to play with a 150points more it might be a reasonable choice to take stormvermins.

they basically take wounds for your heroes on a 4+ (2+ for verminus heroes).

so will keep your bombardiers alive should they be targeted or roll a few ones with their overcharge doomrocket rattling turret

Seems like a reasonable idea. Also thought about somehow fitting in a Warpseer but that seems unlikely

[Skreech Verminking]

7 minutes ago, Congratz said:

Seems like a reasonable idea. Also thought about somehow fitting in a Warpseer but that seems unlikely

Well, i would wait, the warpseer isn’t a bad verminlord but he isn’t the being that he ones was.

still a great model, yet verminlords like the warbringer, deceiver and corruptor are much better options.

still you won’t really need a verminlord for a 1.2k game, unless you really want to have one in your army

[fishwaffle2232]

I'm sorry but your take on the ratling gun rule is not a good one. It is very clearly an oversight by games workshop and to take advantage of that error to get an advantage over another player is pretty poor form. 

It's a good example of how rules as written  may conflict with rules as intended. Sometimes in these instances it is hard to determine the RAI. One only needs to read the rules for more more warplead and it's pretty clear what the intention is. 

Rules lawyering like this will only make people not want to play against you. Someone posted about this in the skaven Facebook group the other day and I don't think I saw a single person in favour of the interpretation that your ratling would not die if a double was rolled.

[Skreech Verminking]

27 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

I'm sorry but your take on the ratling gun rule is not a good one. It is very clearly an oversight by games workshop and to take advantage of that error to get an advantage over another player is pretty poor form. 

It's a good example of how rules as written  may conflict with rules as intended. Sometimes in these instances it is hard to determine the RAI. One only needs to read the rules for more more warplead and it's pretty clear what the intention is. 

Rules lawyering like this will only make people not want to play against you. Someone posted about this in the skaven Facebook group the other day and I don't think I saw a single person in favour of the interpretation that your ratling would not die if a double was rolled.

In any friendly game, fun/fluff events, I would say the same.

yet at any tournaments, where the intention is to win (but still have a great time playing against other people) I personally don’t see this much of a problem.

There are a good amount of people out there overusing rules, playing the best faction and trying to win as hard as they can.

personally as a skaven player, who has been using and looking for rules that can be used not as intended I’m all for it.

if you ask me the doomwheels levitate combination is also one of those not well thought out mechanics from gw that we exploit.

I’m pretty certain that the intention never was to have a flying doomwheel able to dish out 3d3-5d3mortal wounds too any hero, yet we can still do that thanks to the spel.

Exploiting mechanics is in a tournament setting not much else then playing the most boring army just too win, and personally I prefer playing the skaven no matter how I exploit certain fuctions.

although I wouldn’t do this in any other kind of games.

ps: i would also tell your opponent about this exploit before playing him, should keep those gotcha moments out of the game

[angrycontra]

The ratling gun exploit doesn't work. Part of the core rules states that any warscroll rules triumph over core rules if there are exceptions. The fact that you roll 4d6 is irrelevant for the whole "only 2d6 can roll double" argument because the rule works exactly as it is written. Anything else is deliberately misreading the rules to gain favor.

[fishwaffle2232]

Fair play to you if you want to try play it that way. If someone tried to play that way against me I would be getting the TO involved straight away. From my experience in the organised events around my area, there is little to no chance that something like this would fly.

Flying doomwheels on the other hand, I'm not so sure this is in the same category,  I've never seen the levitate trick as being something that is manipulating the rules. I haven't done it, but I agree with the interpretation that it still deals mortals. Plus the mental image of a floating doomwheel cracking a hero in the head, as it flies over them, is a great one.

[Skreech Verminking]

25 minutes ago, angrycontra said:

The ratling gun exploit doesn't work. Part of the core rules states that any warscroll rules triumph over core rules if there are exceptions. The fact that you roll 4d6 is irrelevant for the whole "only 2d6 can roll double" argument because the rule works exactly as it is written. Anything else is deliberately misreading the rules to gain favor.

Well, it is true that an ability overwrites the rule, yet the rattling gun ability doesn’t state what a double is, which the core rules do.

edit: so all in all as is stated the exploit would work

12 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Fair play to you if you want to try play it that way. If someone tried to play that way against me I would be getting the TO involved straight away. From my experience in the organised events around my area, there is little to no chance that something like this would fly.

Flying doomwheels on the other hand, I'm not so sure this is in the same category,  I've never seen the levitate trick as being something that is manipulating the rules. I haven't done it, but I agree with the interpretation that it still deals mortals. Plus the mental image of a floating doomwheel cracking a hero in the head, as it flies over them, is a great one.

i think it always depends on the tournament.

Personally I wouldn’t go to a tournament without asking if I’m allowed ti use this exploit, or better said without asking if he follows the rules as written or as intended.

if he says rules as written I would probably introduce him my understanding of the core rules and that of the rattling gun and explain it to him, of course asking him why he would not allow me to use it like written in the core rules if he denies me that chance.

If his yournament is organized after the rules as inteded (rai) then there isn’t much to talk, in this point the rattling gun exploit won’t work and I would be fine with that, yet I would have to ask him how he would think the redmaw plague should work as intended.

 

ps: also if you’re wondering.

The redmaw plague currently states that a enemy hero infected with that ability that isn’t within 3 inches of any of your models/units in the combat phase, counts as a friendly model of yours.

theoretically we would think that this would mean it can attack it’s own units, yet this isn’t the case since it is considered as a friendly unit for both armies, meaning in a game where we follow rules as written nothing would happen to the hero infected with the redmaw plague.

and I have to yet find a tournament that allows the rules to be used as probably intended.

unless there is one I see no problem arguing about the rattling gun weapon team exploit (to the to I mean not in total, I’m actually enjoying this conversation, so please be my guest, judge and give me your oppinion, this is mine😉)

Edited September 11, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[Congratz]

So I looked abit more into mu 1350 point list and i ended up with this. I think 20 Stormvermin would be better that 10 stormvermin and 2 ratling guns. However abit unsure if I should drop 20 clanrats, 10 stormvermin and the Clawlord and go for 9x Stormfiends. Seems a bit overkill for 1350 point games tho
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaven
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (115)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Clawlord (110)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (100)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Stormvermin (270)
- Halberd
- Reinforced x 1
6 x Stormfiends (640)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Doomflayer Gauntlets
- Reinforced x 1

Total: 1335 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 6

However what are yall thought on Plague Monks and Plague Monk Censer Bearers. Are Pestilence any good?